Spiral Knights - Community weapon ratings

Community weapon ratings - Guns (voting finished)

63 replies [Last post]

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 06:14

Krakob

Community weapon ratings project:
Swords - Done (results)
Bombs - Done (results)
Guns - Done (results)

--------------------------------

The last stretch, we will now cast our opinions on guns.

Rate all bombs on a scale of 1 to 5. Rating guidelines:

The item is very weak and has very few or no place where it genuinely does well.
The item is quite weak compared to others, but is very useful in some cases.
The item can hold its own, but is generally outshone by others.
The item is very strong but comes with some flaws and is not the best for all of its purposes.
The item is more or less flawless and in most cases the strongest available for its purposes.

To give a few examples of how I'd reason:

I'd rate Winmillion as 1 due to its very low damage. Although the projectile has uses its largely troublesome thanks to dodging mechanics.
I'd rate Fang of Vog as 2, as its combo is worse than Brandishes in both damage and speed. The charge is incredibly powerful for some things, but it's not very sustainable unless you have a loadout specifically designed to handle the self fire.
I'd rate Sudaruska a 3. It has very good utility and the charge has the potential to output a ton of damage but falls short on combo damage, often making Divine Avenger or Gran Faust more desirable.
I'd rate Glacius a 4. It's an incredibly powerful sword, but the Freeze hinders some damage from the charge and can be problematic if you don't interrupt monsters, which often happens in larger groups on expert.
I'd rate Final Flourish 4 as well. While its high speed and large reach is incredibly useful for fiends who are easily interrupted, it doesn't have very good damage and even though it may be the best sword for beasts, it's not really as good as Dark Briar Barrage for dealing with groups of wolvers, which are very commonly encountered in beast levels.
I'd rate Warmaster Rocket Hammer 5. While the charge is not great, the combo is insanely powerful and outdoes the elemental Brandishes significantly if used correctly.

You don't have to explain your reasoning for your votes, but try to keep these guidelines in mind. I'll refrain from being strict with how the guidelines are followed, but obvious trolls will be removed. I just don't think anyone would rate Acheron 2/5, you know.

Lastly, a few more rules:

Trying to vote multiple times by using alts is forbidden.
You need to have at least 10 5* guns (about a third of all items voted for) and 20 5* items overall to be eligible for voting.
To verify the above rule, take a screenshot (or several if needed) to showcase said items.
If you use different names on the forums and in game, you'll need to state something like "I am Krakob-Is-Renamed on the forums and this screenshot is for the swords rating thingy" in your screenshot.
Exceptions can be made for people who wish to remain anonymous, provided they either get in touch with me (IGN: Krakob) or have a reputation of being very knowledgeable here on the forums.
Don't consider Lockdown performance when voting. We can do that on a later date, if there's enough interest.
Don't consider how easy it is to get an item when voting. Leviathan Blade isn't stronger because its recipe is free if you do missions.
Don't consider heating costs, either. Assume everything is at level 10.
Maintain the format of the template linked below, as I'll try to use automatic methods of sorting votes into a spreadsheet.

So how do you vote?

Head over here and copy the contents of the paste into a post in this thread and fill in the numbers.
Take a screenshot showcasing your items in-game and reference to your forum name if necessary. Take several screenshots if you can't fit the items into one screenie.
Upload said screenshot(s) to Steam or Imgur. Put the link at the bottom of your post.
Done!

Voting ends sometime on Monday the 5th of October. If you plan on voting, please make sure to do so no later than on the preceeding Sunday.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 17:23

Fehzor

I'll verify later.

Arcana: 5
Argent Peacemaker: 2
Biohazard: 2
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 4
Gilded Griffin: 5
Gorgofist: 5
Grand Tortofist: 5
Grim Repeater: 5
Hail Driver: 5
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 5
Neutralizer: 3
Nova Driver: 5
Obsidian Carbine: 5
Omega Tortofist: 5
Overcharged Mixmaster: 5
Permafroster: 5
Phantamos: 5
Plague Needle: 5
Polaris: 5
Riftlocker: 5
Savage Tortofist: 5
Sentenza: 1
Storm Driver: 5
Supernova: 5
Umbra Driver: 5
Valiance: 5
Volcanic Pepperbox: 5
Wildfire: 5
Winter Grave: 5

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 09:03

Smalltownguy

I guess Fehzor likes guns

Hmm. You don't like the AP nor the Sentenza, but you do like the Gilded Griffin and the Carbine? Care to elaborate?

(I've been running as a gunner for some months, but I only have 5 5* guns so far. I guess I sit out this vote.)

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 10:45

Fehzor

After the gunner update, guns became the best weapon type, hands down. They have the biggest and best selection of armors, almost no penalties when dodging and are capable of dealing almost all types of damage (i.e. crowd control, safe hits, things like that) incredibly well.

---

Sentenza is out classed by carbine, and has to compete with pulsars, phantamos and umbra driver. Sentenza is very very rarely a better choice than one of the other shadow guns. If it were up to me, Sentenza would be given a status effect of some sort in exchange for its gremlin bonus- probably curse on the last hit, 100% of the time.

Argent peacemaker has too much to compete with- the alchemers are much better at dishing out damage in general and in many different ways while arcana does what it does about the same but with less hits, making it better for dodging in and out of things. The existence of mixmaster also kind of hinders it- more damage per shot, same shots faster, shock status, curving bullets. It's a bit apples to oranges but not enough to really justify argent most of the time. Argent peacemaker should probably be given a status instead of a monster damage bonus as well. Probably stun.

Carbine does poison, and is unique in that it is the only gun to deal poison on the normal hits, as biohazard is just so different that you can't really compare the two. This poisoning ability is a decent reason to bring it as a side arm, as the extra poison can indeed finish enemies off when menders go to heal them. It's a niche purpose but a fairly large niche that can make me say in many situations that the gun is an upgrade to all other options.

Gilded griffin is one of two mobile guns to deal piercing damage, the other being riftlocker. The fact that it doesn't have to compete with alchemers, or polaris, or anything except blitz needle and callahan which it beats 10 to 1 on the mobility scale mean that it can be quite good. The reason it can beat riftlocker is because of how many shots it has- lets say there are 10 grievers after you. Would you rather have to hit them all with 2 shots or with 5, assuming that you want to shield and not watch your knight take damage while reloading? Riftlocker is better for the usual situations as well as against beasts, but gilded griffin is better against grievers and devilites. Ergo both weapons are about as viable as one another.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 11:25

Vohtarak-Forum

this is the one I can vote in

but I dont have any way of showing proof, do I count as "knowledgeable on the forums" or am I not allowed in?

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 11:48

Krakob

If you have a PC I'm pretty darn sure you can take a screenshot.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 11:50

Holy-Nightmare

Explained on top, condensed below

Arcana: 4
Solid damage and speed but no supporting stats. Weak charge

Argent Peacemaker: 3
Nice speed and clip size but low damage and lack of status hurt the score.

Biohazard: 3
A very Niche weapon that has its mechanics hindered by playing in groups.

Blitz Needle: 4.5
Solid damage but no knockback and roots players to the ground.

Callahan: 4
A useful weapon for pinning down monsters but the charge requires skill to use on pierce weak enemies.

Gilded Griffin: 3
Excellent if playing alone but in groups it will annoy allies by triggering the dodge mechanic of Fiend and Beast monsters.

Gorgofist: 4
Difficult to grasp mechanics but is highly effective against large groups of slow enemies.

Grand Tortofist: 3.5
A solid option for those who don't want to battle the event bosses as much but there are options for more specialized damage.

Grim Repeater: 5
Strong damage, powerful knockback on charge keeps user safe, excellent for large and tanky monsters

Hail Driver: 3
Charge often breaks it's own status and is far less powerful than other alchemers vs groups. Stands out in PVP but fails to impress in PVE.

Iron Slug: 4.5
Neutral damage on the gun makes it actually very strong. Should lead the magnus family till an elemental version is released.

Magma Driver: 5
Solid damage, charge attack, and status.

Neutralizer: 3.5
Fun but mechanics are hindered by teammates.

Nova Driver: 5
Great solid damage and charge

Obsidian Carbine: 4
Large clip, fast bullets, and a status are useful. The charge attack is risky and the status chance on regular bullet is low.

Omega Tortofist: 5
Most enemies weak to Elemental are slow so this gun can be devastating to them.

Overcharged Mixmaster: 0
Limited pieces in existence, high price to own, the first weapon put in prize boxes. Cut off from most of the players, unique mechanics few will ever experience.

Permafroster: 3.5
Status often hinders knockback and deals no damage like the other sidegrades of the Pulsar family.

Phantamos: 4
Solid damage and speed. Charge is weak and no status

Plague Needle: 4
Solid damage, powerful charge, useful status. Roots players to the ground and poison status turns the gun into a support/damage weapon.

Polaris: 4.5
Status sometimes hinders knockback, somewhat specialized against elemental weak enemies.

Riftlocker: 3.5
Pierce weak enemies tend to dodge gunfire. This gun is somewhat successful at fighting them but swords are generally preferred.

Savage Tortofist: 3
Pierce weak enemies will dodge most of this gun's attacks but deals high damage when it hits.

Sentenza: 3
A once solid gun but with the rise of Chaos and BK sets the monster bonus is not fully utilized. Introduction of Obsidian Carbine further de-popularized this weapon. Got buffed in the GU but players had moved on.

Storm Driver: 5
Powerful charge, solid damage dealer to tight knit crowds, great status.

Supernova: 5
Reliable damage and knockback

Umbra Driver: 4.5
Solid damage and great charge but some shadow weak enemies can dodge or protect themselves.

Valiance: 4.5
Still reliable in all situations but the charge attack is weak.

Volcanic Pepperbox: 4.5
Amazing damage on charge, status makes standard attacks viable, but roots players to the ground on attacks

Wildfire: 5
Amazing gun for elemental weak enemies. Strong status makes it good for aggressive or defensive playstyle.

Winter Grave: 4
Great damage on charge but freeze hinders knockback. Freeze also sets up for future charge attacks.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Arcana: 4
Argent Peacemaker: 3
Biohazard: 3
Blitz Needle: 4.5
Callahan: 4
Gilded Griffin: 3
Gorgofist: 4
Grand Tortofist: 3.5
Grim Repeater: 5
Hail Driver: 3
Iron Slug: 4.5
Magma Driver: 5
Neutralizer: 3.5
Nova Driver: 5
Obsidian Carbine: 4
Omega Tortofist: 5
Overcharged Mixmaster: 0
Permafroster: 3.5
Phantamos: 4
Plague Needle: 4
Polaris: 4.5
Riftlocker: 3.5
Savage Tortofist: 3
Sentenza: 3
Storm Driver: 5
Supernova: 5
Umbra Driver: 4.5
Valiance: 4.5
Volcanic Pepperbox: 4.5
Wildfire: 5
Winter Grave: 4

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 12:13

Fangel

Oh here we go

So many guns... This'll be fun.

Arcana: 4
Argent Peacemaker: 3
Biohazard: 3
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 4
Gilded Griffin: 3
Gorgofist: 4
Grand Tortofist: 2
Grim Repeater: 5
Hail Driver: 4
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 4
Neutralizer: 3
Nova Driver: 4
Obsidian Carbine: 3
Omega Tortofist: 4
Overcharged Mixmaster: 5
Permafroster: 3
Phantamos: 4
Plague Needle: 4
Polaris: 4
Riftlocker: 2
Savage Tortofist: 4
Sentenza: 3
Storm Driver: 4
Supernova: 2
Umbra Driver: 4
Valiance: 3
Volcanic Pepperbox: 4
Wildfire: 4
Winter Grave: 5

Sheesh I thought we'd get a 1 somewhere in there but I just can't do it. No gun is really useless right now, which is good for guns but goes to show the difference.

Couple o' extras:

Riftlocker is a 2 due to clip size + bullets vs piercing weak enemies. Devilites and wolver variant enemies dodge, and gorgos also can have a tendency to move just out of the way of a bullet unless you're at the max distance anyways. Gilded Griffin has a similar issue however it shoots bullets fairly quickly and can shoot more of them so it's easier to stay mobile while you spray and pray.

Grand tortofist is lower than the others simply because that weapon is so much better in the specialized variants. If you're using the weapon in its vanilla state (i.e., no ASI, CTR, dmg, etc) it's kind of underwhelming but with boosts it can perform a really nice role... And the normal damage variant falls behind simply because of the damage requirement. It is good for a specific situation (i.e., tortodrone event) but that isn't enough to really save it.

Valiance gets a 3 for the similar reason grand tortofist does. Specialized is just better. Iron slug on the other hand demolishes anything so it sticks at 5. Oddly enough callahan gets a 4 because landing a charge shot on that is significantly harder because of the enemies you'll be facing.

Think that's all the things there.

Sat, 10/03/2015 - 14:03

Dibsville

Hmmm...

Arcana: 3
Argent Peacemaker: 3
Biohazard: 1
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 5
Gilded Griffin: 3
Gorgofist: 2
Grand Tortofist: 2
Grim Repeater: 4
Hail Driver: 4
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 3
Neutralizer: 2
Nova Driver: 4
Obsidian Carbine: 2
Omega Tortofist: 1
Overcharged Mixmaster: 5
Permafroster: 2
Phantamos: 4
Plague Needle: 4
Polaris: 4
Riftlocker: 3
Savage Tortofist: 3
Sentenza: 2
Storm Driver: 5
Supernova: 2
Umbra Driver: 5
Valiance: 5
Volcanic Pepperbox: 3
Wildfire: 3
Winter Grave: 5

Final verification: http://imgur.com/a/I21Q1

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 14:39

Vohtarak-Forum

nope

something doesnt work, whenever I try to take one it wont show up as anything but a white box, the snip tool doesnt even work

I can take a screenshot, but you would just be looking at a blank image

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 14:55

#10

Dibsville

@Vohtarak

Press F12 (or whatever button your "Screenshot" is mapped to in the settings)? It should save the picture to your desktop.

Or just exit fullscreen? I used to have that problem too, exiting fullscreen always fixed it.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 15:38

#11

Thunder-The-Bright

algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

I haven't got all the guns, so I'll rate what I have.
Blitz Needle:5(actually OVER 9000)
Gilded Griffin:3
Gorgofist: have the 3*, and it's a 2
Neutralizer: have the 4*, it's a 4
Polaris:4
Sentenza:3
Supernova:4
Valiance: have the 4*, it's a 3
Wildfire: 5

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 16:34

#12

Skepticraven

↓

Such high values for pulsar and catalyzer lines. Especially with the magnus line, there is no good reason to rank catalyzers any higher than 2. It's also been awhile since I've checked if they ever fixed the damage bug with them (where neutralizer was dealing less damage vs neutral mobs compared to biohazard -- which has poison).
Of those that explain their low scores for antiguas, I agree with the scores (but for a different reason). Antiguas have a single monster family damage high boost (changed from med during gunner update), making them fairly viable if you don't run around with chaos or black kat. However, they are pretty useless when you notice that autoguns shoot 6 antigua shots in one normal attack.

@Vohtarak-Forum
The "reputation on the forums" only counts for LDers and buddies of Krakob. Zeddy doesn't get called out for using an alt without even mentioning his main account, but I got called out for not providing validation. Don't mind my comment though because I'm also a troll, despite the same number of other players disagreeing with DR getting a 3 from someone else (without having their votes invalidated).

@Thunder-The-Bright
What's your 7th through 10th 5* gun to vote? I'd personally say your votes are too high because you don't have the good guns to compare them to.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 17:29

#13

Fehzor

@Skepticraven

I'd still really like to hear your ratings on guns/bombs and your thoughts on sword balance. You don't have to only be a martyr.

----

The reason I rated pulsars so highly is because they do what they're supposed to do incredibly well- you can cut off corridors with them, chase enemies into corners to give them a hard time or create walls of spam to spread status and knock enemies back. When it comes to these things, there really isn't another gun that measures up. That people are bad with them and make them seem more obnoxious than they have to be should not factor into their rating.

The reason I gave the catalyzers decent scores is because they're fairly safe when it comes to spamming the shots out there. They're like valiance, but with crowd control.. that said, I did go back and knock them down to 3 and 2 (bio is worse since it lacks normal damage) because people don't use them enough for them to ever be viable.

Tue, 09/22/2015 - 17:11

#14

Dibsville

@Skepticraven

While I agree about the Catalyzers, not just because other better weapons exist, but for the fact that they're just horrible in general now (I wanted to give them both 1s tbh), and Antiguas I can see. But, you did mention last time that you'd give Arcana and Wildfire a 1, and I asked how they could both be any less than a 2-- now that this thread is out, can I perhaps ask about your thoughts on that, if it doesn't bother you? I'm really curious.

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 20:18

#15

Falminar

Deleleleleleleleleleleted

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 00:24

#16

Sir-Pandabear

Arcana: 5
Argent Peacemaker: 4
Biohazard: 3
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 5
Gilded Griffin: 4
Gorgofist: 2
Grand Tortofist: 2
Grim Repeater: 5
Hail Driver: 4
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 4
Neutralizer: 2
Nova Driver: 5
Obsidian Carbine: 4
Omega Tortofist: 2
Overcharged Mixmaster: 5, 4 if it no longer passes through walls
Permafroster: 5
Phantamos: 5
Plague Needle: 4
Polaris: 5
Riftlocker: 4
Savage Tortofist: 2
Sentenza: 4
Storm Driver: 4
Supernova: 4
Umbra Driver: 5
Valiance: 3
Volcanic Pepperbox: 5
Wildfire: 5
Winter Grave: 5

Valiance is a 3 because the other valiances do like double damage. If they didn't exist Valiance would be a 4.

Absolutely no gun is as bad as Deadly Shard Bomb, so nothing gets a 1.

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 02:05

#17

Krakob

@Skepticraven

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. By having a reputation on the forums, I referred to people who have shown their knowledge through helping others or in depth discussions frequently, such as Fehzor and Bopp. Neither of them play Lockdown and I don't know Bopp at all, unless he's secretly my friend, but they've spent years helping others and presenting well informed opinions on these forums.

As for you, I see you collect data mostly. That's very admirable and I'll take it as proof now given that it was elaborated on in the 2nd thread. Just like Fehzor, I'd very much appreciate your participation and I think it's a shame you chose to redact your votes in the guns thread.

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 04:28

#18

Mouzzie

Arcana: 4
Argent Peacemaker: 4
Biohazard: 1
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 5
Gilded Griffin: 4
Gorgofist: 2
Grand Tortofist: 1
Grim Repeater: 4
Hail Driver: 3
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 4
Neutralizer: 1
Nova Driver: 5
Obsidian Carbine: 4
Omega Tortofist: 2
Overcharged Mixmaster: 5
Permafroster: 2
Phantamos: 4
Plague Needle: 4
Polaris: 3
Riftlocker: 4
Savage Tortofist: 2
Sentenza: 3
Storm Driver: 5
Supernova: 4
Umbra Driver: 5
Valiance: 3
Volcanic Pepperbox: 2
Wildfire: 4
Winter Grave: 5

Screenshots

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 14:46

#19

Sky-Scythe

Conquest & Fire

Reason: I realized the format everyone else was using and decided I would give myself some time.

(and also I can't remember how to delete posts)

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 19:31

#20

Skepticraven

↓

@Krakob
"Now you're just putting words in my mouth. By having a reputation on the forums, I referred to people who have shown their knowledge through helping others or in depth discussions frequently, such as Fehzor and Bopp."

I'm a bit lazy about actually counting how many players actually didn't provide verification but I'll point out the specific ones I was referring to:
Link 1.
Link 2.

Also, I tend to spend more time in the wiki subforum than the arsenal. While Bopp and Fehzor tend to link to my treasure box data (because it's the most useful of my datasets to players that want questions answered), this thread has a short summary of some of the stuff I've done with respect to weapon damage. I'll specifically point to the 5* heating curve. It was useful for giving the answer of "when does 5* get strong than 4* lvl 10?" [Answered here]

@Anyone that wants my input on guns:
My notes from the test server prior to the gunner update has a relatively good, but outdated analysis. Long story short: I played around with the magnus line a bit longer and decided to decrease the value of most other guns.

Wed, 09/23/2015 - 20:29

#21

Abelisk

OOO doesn't wanna make a free reskin of the Mixmaster due to the fear of undervaluing the Mixmaster itself, making merchants quit SK, which is not at all what OOO wants.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 04:02

#22

Vohtarak-Forum

yes dibs I said that

I can take screenshots, but they show up blank
it doesnt work in full screen, window mode, or anywhere else

so I didnt see any post about it, aside from skeptics, so ill just take that as im not qualified to do this without proof
bye then, this "community" thing seems pretty elitist anyways "you need all this, you need to show proof, etc"

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 07:58

#23

Krakob

You could link to your steam inventory if you play through Steam.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 09:00

#24

Dibsville

Two questions

Can people vouch for others? I know for a fact that Vohtarak has the required equipment to vote, although I suppose that's irrelevant with no proof-- I'd go so far as to screenshot him holding his stuff if that's what's needed (if he wanted to).

Also, Krakob, when are you putting the scores in? Do you do it when you see the post or do you do it at the voting deadline? Mostly asking because there's a lot of guns that I feel like I initially overrated because I really wanted to think that they're better than they really are, personal bias and all, and pointing out constant edits just seems kind of pointless.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 09:27

#25

Vohtarak-Forum

I dont play on steam

i play on armorgames

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 13:28

#26

Hennils

My votes:

Arcana: 5
Argent Peacemaker: 4
Biohazard: 2
Blitz Needle: 5
Callahan: 3
Gilded Griffin: 3
Gorgofist: 5
Grand Tortofist: 2
Grim Repeater: 5
Hail Driver: 4
Iron Slug: 5
Magma Driver: 2
Neutralizer: 1
Nova Driver: 4
Obsidian Carbine: 5
Omega Tortofist: 4
Overcharged Mixmaster: 4
Permafroster: 3
Phantamos: 5
Plague Needle: 3
Polaris: 4
Riftlocker: 4
Savage Tortofist: 3
Sentenza: 3
Storm Driver: 4
Supernova: 5
Umbra Driver: 3
Valiance: 3
Volcanic Pepperbox: 4
Wildfire: 5
Winter Grave: 5

Validation

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 10:43

#27

Krakob

I have no intentions on keeping this extremely exclusive, I just wanted to put some entry barrier so that people who aren't well informed will post based on the opinions of others as opposed to their own so here's what we'll do: Vohtarak can vote and then either I try to meet up with him in game and check his equipment or Dibs posts a couple of screenshots showcasing his guns through inspect. You can add me in game (IGN: Krakob) and hopefully we can do it sometime, although I'm not very active for the moment so the screenshots might be a better idea.

You have until the deadline (Monday, Oct 5) to finalise your votes. I'm not counting anything before that.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 11:28

#28

Fangel

Hmm.

Vohtarak do you play on a Mac, Windows, or Linux machine? On a windows machine the printscreen -> paste into paint program method should work. On a Mac Command + Shift + 3 should take a screenshot of your entire screen and plot it onto your desktop. From there you can edit it with a program or certain file uploaders such as Imgur (which, if you're on a windows machine, you can actually just printscreen then paste into imgur).

Not sure how to screenshot on a Linux machine but it's possible.

If that still doesn't work I suppose you could take a literal picture with a camera or a phone camera and upload those instead.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 11:50

#29

Vohtarak-Forum

whatever

ill just give up on it, its really not worth all this trouble just for rating items

(p.s. I use windows, and I tried the method you suggested already fangel, got a blank image)

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 12:24

#30

Fehzor

Lol just show Fangel or Krakob or me or anyone here your items when you see them around and they can vouch for you... No big deal.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 12:29

#31

Vohtarak-Forum

im not sure I could find anyone online

my luck is notorious for never finding people online
im sure my ratings wont do much anyways, you guys seem to have an ok sample size

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 13:09

#32

Dibsville

"im sure my ratings wont do much anyways, you guys seem to have an ok sample size"

Everyone's rating counts, it could be the difference between one weapon being rated higher than another. Sure, this thread isn't a competition, moreso a way to gauge the opinions of multiple people, but all those votes count and withholding your votes makes the poll that much less accurate. If a person who can give an experienced and scholarly answer firmly believes that Callahan is the worst gun in the game, then they should make their voice be heard, or something similar.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 15:52

#33

Skepticraven

↓

@Dibsville

That's what I though, too. I'll just refer to this post, again.

@Screenshot conversation

It's actually a video card driver or settings issue. I had an issue with it back when I used windows.

Also, linux users that are using an ubuntu variant have ctrl+prtScr (to clipboard), "Screenshot" program, or a variety of other tools. I personally like ffmpeg (with x11grab as the input). You could probably use ffmpeg as well on windows Link. Keep in mind for 1 image (screenshot, not video), use "-vframes 1".

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 15:52

#34

Dibsville

Of course, there are outliers, but I didn't want to call anyone out in my post plus I was short on time.

I had a pretty long explanation for this here but honestly at this point it's pretty pointless to continue on this conversation. I already gave my thoughts on it here, more specifically in the third paragraph.

And on that note, I'd like to ask about whether Idio's scores were actually considered or not-- from the looks of it, Idio just seemed to follow the scoring system much more strictly than other people, and his only real questionable ratings were Combuster and the two Sealed Swords, but that just seems more of where opinion rather than general consensus leaks through, and he gave valid reasoning for the lower scores. Then again, Idio didn't provide proof of his equipment, so whatever.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 17:42

#35

Skepticraven

↓

And on that note, I'd like to ask about whether Idio's scores were actually considered or not

They were not.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 17:49

#36

Dibsville

"They were not."

That makes sense since he didn't provide evidence of his equipment regardless.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 18:19

#37

Skepticraven

↓

@Dibsville
Let's not be hypocritical. Only 1 of those 4 didn't make it to the dataset, while all 4 of them didn't provide links to "verification". I'll also note that the data suggests that "Enfeebler" voted twice for swords (The second one was a typo'd Flowchart).

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 20:05

#38

Dibsville

You won this, but I want to argue just for the sake of arguing

Honestly, not trying to be hypocritical, I would have assumed right away that Fangel and Holy-Nightmare of course have the proper gear, though I'm not sure about Coreonn (as well as this, a simple search didn't really lead me to anything about their equipment), nor Idio-Syncracies. Additionally, although it's completely irrelevant, Idio and Core both said they would provide their equipment but ended up not doing so (yeah, I'm just nitpicking for stupid stuff now). Personally, I wouldn't have accepted anyone's vote without verification, but I'm just me.

Thu, 09/24/2015 - 21:10

#39

Krakob

Idio was excluded because I was concerned that his votes didn't actually represent his opinions as they were very polarised. I would've accepted them but since he made no further reply and never came back with the proof (which I didn't mind, since I know him a bit) he promised and was requested by others, I figured he quite frankly didn't care quite enough.

Fri, 09/25/2015 - 11:27

#40

Fangel

Reason I haven't really provided picture proof is because A) I talk about weapon mechanics and details a lot from experience in the suggestions forum and B) I know Krakob in-game ish so if they ever require me to show proof of anything they just need to send me a mail or something and I'll get on it. Potentially other forumers met with Krakob in-game for verification rather than a screenshot.

I also do about 90% of my foruming while I'm at work between jobs and I need to be able to pull away at a moment's notice. Sometimes I'll write several paragraph-long responses to something then come back to it an hour later and wonder what I was thinking and just not submit it - similarly taking screenshots of my inventory would probably lead to a lot of me being logged out due to a walk in or something.

Mon, 09/28/2015 - 05:40

#41

Trats-Romra

Why some veterans are giving Valiance a higher rate than Arcana, Riftlocker and Phantamos? Aren't their specialized damage worth it?

Tue, 09/29/2015 - 05:49

#42

Fehzor

Having specialized damage is great, but having normal damage can be much better when there isn't a single greatest type. As an example, dreams and nightmares has 5/6 monster families present, and so bringing arcana would miss the beasts, riftlocker wouldn't do so well against the lumbers or toxigels, you get the gist of it.

There are only 4 normal guns that you can really strafe well with- valiance, grand tortofist neutralizer, and supernova of which tortofist requires charge time reduction and hits an area, supernova is worse at close range and better at a distance (meaning that it must fight in a large area that needs crowd control) and neutralizer is weird and kind of bad. So valiance is really the only gun of its type- a safe, normal damage weapon that allows you to survive on it.

Valiance makes extremely effective loadouts like the following possible to create-

Full black kat
2x HP trinket
Seraphynx- normal harness, bomb ctr med (or msi if you somehow have all ctr v.hs on your bombs) perk

Valiance (asi med+ uv)
Ash of Agni/Celestial Vortex (ctr med+ uv)
Dark Retribution (ctr med+ uv)
Dark Briar Barrage (ctr med+ uv)

Which turn missions like Dreams and Nightmares into a joke. You have a source of crowd control for all of the arenas, and once you're done dealing crowd damage you can finish them off with valiance. Why is valiance necessary for this? Because it has pretty huge reach, allowing you to target weak enemies while strafing about, and it lets you hit switches while also dodging bubbles and things. This makes valiance pretty top tier, especially since the other options are very different from it.

Mon, 09/28/2015 - 14:34

#43

Skepticraven

↓

@Trats-Romra

Because they either haven't looked at the difference in damage (which aren't on the wiki) for valiance and variants or they hunt a ton of tortodrones and vanaduke masks (where normal damage is reduced the least).

@Fehzor

I don't understand how you put gran tortofist into "can strafe easily" and exclude neutralizer.

Mon, 09/28/2015 - 22:59

#44

Sir-Pandabear

The difference in damage for the valiances is right here.

(It's the bullet.)

Tue, 09/29/2015 - 05:51

#45

Fehzor

@Skepticraven

I guess I wrote that kind of quickly and skipped neutralizer since it is kind of lackluster.

Tue, 09/29/2015 - 11:52

#46

Krakob

I'd argue Tortofists have mobility superior to guns like Blasters and Antiguas if you primarily work with shield charges and not using the combo because the combo isn't awfully good. What you get then is a 100%(?) movement speed charge which, when unleashed, can be used to dodge thanks to the burst of movement speed you'd only get from stuff like the dash and WRH's combo dash.

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 08:21

#47

Trats-Romra

@Fehzor
Skepticraven made me raise a question on mind:
The Valiance is better just on occasional situations or on overall? Because your post says that specialized damage is great, but normal damage is good when there isn't a great type. In other words, occasional. It matches with your opinion? If so, why it should receive the highest rate?

@Others who gave rate 5 to Valiance
I'm waiting your opinions too.

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:12

#48

Fehzor

It is the strongest available for its purpose- a mix of close/med/long range combat that benefits from normal damage. Of the 4 blasters, I often find myself falling back on it even though I have all 4 at my disposal, simply because it works decently on everything. Piercing, shadow and elemental blasters are also great in the same occasional manner as valiance when there isn't something that resists them on the level- you really can't compare them to each other very well when the only difference is their damage type, which means that they have separate purposes.

Overall, normal damage can be underwhelming but specialized damage is even more underwhelming when you're stuck using it on enemies that resist it, and you can't always afford to give up extra slots just to get that extra bit of damage.

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 13:12

#49

Dibsville

"@Others who gave rate 5 to Valiance"

[What Fehzor said.]

A lot of my ratings are based on their usefulness against the families they go up against. This is why I gave Arcana and Riftlocker a 3, yet I gave Phantamos a 4. While it has nothing over Arcana or Riftlocker, Phantamos does better against Gremlins and Slimes than Arcana/Riftlocker do against their respective families. Likewise, I gave Grim Repeater only a 4 despite it being just a shadow variant of Blitz Needle-- Blitz Needle is simply beyond effective against what you use it on, while Grim Repeater is just "really, really good." I rated Valiance similarly; you know what's better than Valiance as the staple support gun against all the families? Nothing. Know what flaws Valiance has if you use it in its role as a staple support gun? None. Know what flaws the other three blasters have? Quite a lot actually, unless you want to sacrifice more slots for some "extra support," which isn't necessary at all when you could just run Valiance.

Now, if you're arguing for usefulness in places like FSC, Heart of Ice, or the like, then yeah, you have no point in picking Valiance over the other three blasters, but that doesn't make Valiance any less of a valid choice, it just makes the other three more valid.

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 13:25

#50

Krakob

I'll take the opposite side and say that although you're right in what you say about Valiance, it's questionable whether the flaws of the other blasters are actually a problem, or at least for Arcana. Why? You wouldn't want to use it against gremlins and wolvers because they are resistant to it, but both families are very dodgy. Wolvers are quite frankly impossible to do really well against with a gun that won't knock them down or kill them quickly because half of your shots will cause a teleport. I can see the utility in clearing up gremlins, that's definitely valuable, but it's something you can definitely and will often need to achieve with other weapons due to the sheer amount gremlins tend to come in as well as the menders that often accompany them.

I do think that intentional dodge triggering is useful for manipulating enemy AI, but that's very much something you can do with Arcana as well. In the end I'd say the only true pro of Valiance over Arcana is damage vs Gremlins, but the damage difference where it's effective is overwhelming. It may be worth it in Dreams and Nightmares where you need to pick your weapons extremely carefully (and Unknown Passage, obviously), but if we're running literally anything else, is there anywhere else Valiance really is the better choice and isn't just the better of two turds (i.e. not in Wolver lairs because Vali against wolvers is not a superb idea)?

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Community weapon ratings - Guns (voting finished)