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Various ideas to help stop the grinding problem of Energy

7 replies [Last post]
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 21:45
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il

I've been playing Spiral Knights on and off for about over a year now, gotten to Tier 2 and am one piece of equipment from Tier 3, all done as an F2P. And I keep asking myself why I continually put the game aside for such long periods of time. There's great gameplay, the game looks fantastic, it's constantly updated, and has a very nice and open community. Plus, it has very interesting mechanics implemented into it, namely the Energy system. It ties into how much you can play with the Mist Energy and even what equipment you can use depending on how much energy you accumulate through missions. So, where's the problem?

Well, the problem becomes obnoxiously apparent once I pick it up again.
The staggering Energy costs between the equipment levels makes it a real struggle to continue on.
For people like me who don't have the money to spare to buy Energy, it becomes a real hassle. Aside from having limited Energy to complete missions and levels with, it also limits our equipment since we can only essentially afford the one set that we chose at the outset. F2Ps don't have the Energy to make armors for the various floors and situations the game throws at us, we just have to rely on what we got. I still haven't been able to complete a Tier 2 mission due to my Gunslinger setup, not being able to protect me against Shadow and I imagine there are others out there who are going through the same ordeal.
The only solution in-game being hours of endless grinding, and if you're going for the most profitable routes, grinding the same levels over and over again. Sure we get to do some fun and unique missions afterward, but when we hit that next Hall of Heroes that needs us to have the next level of equipment, the grinding starts all over again. It becomes repetitive and exhausting to work for that next armor set.

However, as much as it sounds like a problem with how much these missions pay out, it really isn't. It's the Energy Depot.
This constantly fluctuating marketplace is essentially run by the players, namely the players who buy OOO's Energy Packs not to craft with but to sell to the other players. There's a common misconception going around some of F2P players that anybody who buys the Energy Packs is contributing to the Energy Depot when that's not the case at all. Most of the energy bought in those packs goes towards crafting, buying keys/shadow keys, and upgrade slots. None of that goes back into the market. The bits that do, are priced according to the amount of Crowns that the rest of the players are making via Missions and the Arcade. The more Crowns that players can make and the easier it is to do so, severely devalues the Energy on the market causing the price of Energy to go up to compensate.
Now, I'm not an economist, so my explanation isn't the best out there. I'm sure there are some forumites out there who can explain this much better than I can and with a deeper understanding of it to boot.

So. Are there any solutions? I don't know. Some would argue that it isn't a problem to be solved and that F2Ps should help pitch in to OOO's profits as well, whereas the F2P players would ask why it was made a free-to-play game at all if they want us to pay for it. Some would say grinding is part of the game, others would say this amount of grinding is excessive and so on and so forth.
But for now, I just want to put forth some ideas that I had. So give it a read if you wish and I'd love to hear feedback about them.

-------------------------------------

- Reducing Crown payout on Missions/Boss Runs in a different way
The main contributing factor to the rising cost of energy is the ease of access to highly profitable missions. OOO has tried to fix this in the past by cutting down the overall payout of various missions, namely the boss areas. This honestly isn't the best fix. It just makes people do the most profitable missions areas over and over again.

Proposed fix: Why not make it so that the more floors you go down, the more money you get?

Every Terminal you hit would activate a Crown multiplier, so the longer you go the more you make. If you take a shortcut and start at the Manor or Emberlight, you don't get the multipliers from the floors you skipped. So if you start from the very top at Depth 1, by the time you hit the the last Stratum or the Firestorm Citadel, you're making exponentially more than when you started out and even more if you had just done the Vanaduke mission.
It would bring use back to the now utterly abandoned Arcade, and make it more of an effort to get higher Crown payouts, thus reducing the price on the Energy Depot after a while. It would also get people to stop farming the Missions so frequently, only doing so if they need the materials or tokens from the boss. It would also add much needed variety to the life of a Crown farmer. I can only imagine the boredom of having to go through the same floor hundreds of times just for new armor.
Granted, this would make getting Crowns a much more time consuming process. Something else this would do is also having the side effect of cutting down the costs of basic 0-1 star materials in the Auction House. With so many people doing the first few floors again, basic materials would begin to be put back up for auction at reasonable prices.

- Making more incentive to sell Energy on the Market
Now being a F2P, I'm not 100% sure how the other end of the Energy market works, but from what I've read on the wiki and forums, there's barely any incentive to even put your energy up on the marketplace. Spending hard earned money buying Energy, converting it into Crowns, and only getting a handful of Crowns more than if you had just done an Arcade run or two. Plus, why even use it for that? Why not use it to craft a sweet new armor set?

Proposed fix: Give people who make successful sales at the Depot a coupon of some sort that reduces their Energy costs elsewhere.

Whether that be for elevators, crafting, unbinding, etc., so long as there's a bigger incentive to put more energy into the marketplace, this causes there to be more competition for lower prices so they can benefit from this bonus. Especially if it would reduce crafting cost or the price of shadow lair keys.
Doing so would even give more incentive to F2P players to buy Energy Packs if they have a shot at getting reduced Energy costs, especially with how expensive things are these days.

- Have a source of Energy at a fixed price
One problem (and benefit!) with the Energy Depot is that the prices are always fluctuating. And unfortunately they've been on an upward trend since I started playing. When once I could buy a pack of Energy for 5000 Crowns, now I have to shell out 8500+. The equivalent to 4 or more Jelly Palace runs.

Proposed fix: Have a source of Energy somewhere at a fixed price determined by OOO and players.

This would still fluctuate according to player needs, but would help determine the overall price of the market and HOPEFULLY make it more stable. You could even make it a chore to get to, such as only at a certain terminal or after a boss floor via the Arcade.
Another thing you could do is have the price increase depending on your equipment level. However, this brings up the problem of players giving lower tier players their Crowns in exchange for cheap Energy...

- Make more outlets and uses for Crowns and Energy
There really aren't a lot of ways to use the Crowns and Energy you've accumulated after curbstomping Vanaduke for the umpteenth time. Sure there's always new equipment that MAY come out, but what are you going to do in the meantime? Play Lockdown? Try the Shadow Lairs?
This overabundance is part of the problem that contributes to the inflation of the Energy market. How do we fix it?

Proposed fix: Add some other uses for Energy than elevators, crafting, and buying stuff.

Maybe something story related that we all have to pitch in for at one point. Maybe a raid boss that requires players to sink in more energy than usual. SOMETHING ASIDE FROM SILLY ACCESSORIES.
And while we're at it why not Crowns as well? We need a sink for both of them, considering they are both (technically) Spiral Knight's currency. Maybe use Crowns for betting on new and existing mini-games. Hell, maybe even pay a little bit to spectate an event. Or make something that costs both Energy and Crowns.
This is where we need someone with a real business sense to look at this. There needs to be a way to balance it all out somehow.

------------------------------------

I know this is probably going to be picked to shreds by the vets of the forums, but I'd still like to get people talking about it. These fixes are big changes if ever implemented (which I HIGHLY doubt would ever happen), but are more rational than "hurr GeT Rid oF Enurgy EnTireLy." If you don't think so, or if you have your own idea, post it here!

(I have searched the forums previously about some of these matters and I know there have been proposed Crown and Energy sinks before. The other ideas I hadn't seen, but if they were posted, I'm sorry I missed them.)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:48
#1
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Even though we just had a thread like this

I appreciate that you want a solution for everyone, not for your own benefit, and attempt to create solutions rather than sitting in a soiled diaper screaming "I want this I want that".

  • As much as a consecutive continuation crown multiplier would help, it would also spike profits for premium players; think elevator passes. Sure, regular players would get more money for burning their energy in one sitting, but premium people would get far more proportionately; not to mention the inflation which everyone would be contributing to. Since we already have too much crowns in our economy all (all) payouts would have to be lowered to counterbalance the increased payouts so the highest possible multiplier point would end up with about the same or a little less than current payout rates would give.
  • Yes. We want that excess energy to go into the market, not toys to be thrown into the toy chest in the closet. However, what we do not want is yet another reward for premium players who can afford to toss all the energy they want and get all the rewards they can get. A system to help non-premiums is fine, but if premiums can take advantage of it and get a lot more out if it we all have more problems.
  • Fixed energy prices is never going to happen whether we want it or not. It would be far more likely for the existing energy market to surpass 150Cr:1CE (15,000Cr:100CE) and stay up there before a fixed market would exist.
  • Crown and energy sinks. What about materials? Our market has too much sitting around doing nothing going on. All of these, though mostly energy, are used in crafting. Crafting eats a lot of energy. We have more crowns and materials proportionately because they are less necessary but far more abundant for everyone while energy is only abundant for premium players, creating the market imbalance. What do both premies and non-premies have? Materials and crowns, though premium has more crowns because they can afford to do more floors and what not, but they both have them. If more crowns are consumed energy prices would lower because the source of their price which would increase it is lowered. Imagine trying to fill infinite water balloons. Right now we have a faucet. Now imagine trying to fill water balloons with tears. The tears of players who only get to T3 because they bought a bunch of energy and bought prebuilt equipment through the depot or something. They got it through someone else who has 5* depot stuff accessible because they never even finished the Snarbolax mission. Back to the issue, our economy has too much resources sitting around; think of the market as a giant sink and resources as liquid. We have a big sink full of dirty water; dirty because some of that water is urine (people using elevator passes to grind for derpbillion hours to generate derpbillion crowns). People are urinating in the sink you wash your hands in. Before I sit here for an hour to ramble here is a listing of resource introduced and consumed:
        (Crystal) Energy
      • Introduced through premium purchase (energy packs)
      • Consumed by crafting
      • Consumed by purchasing upgrades (trinket and weapon slot availability)
      • Consumed by purchasing modifiers (heat, Krogmo token)
      • Consumed by the depot (prebuilt equipment)
      • Consumed by keys (Shadow Lair and boxes/crates)
      • Consumed by unbinding equipment through Vise
      • Consumed by playing the Clockworks (elevator fee)
      • Consumed by reviving (in both the Clockworks and Krogmo minigames)
        Crowns
      • Introduced through playing the Clockworks (Arcade, missions)
      • Introduced through Krogmo minigame rewards (very little, but if your team wins you get slightly more than you paid to get in the match)
      • Introduced through selling items on auction or to NPCs
      • Consumed by crafting
      • Consumed by purchasing from NPCs (recipes from Basil and Vatel, 3*- swords from Quillion, etc.)
      • Consumed by rolling UVs at Punch
      • Consumed by auction taxes (when creating an auction)
      • Consumed by skipping cleared tiers on a gate which has not been cleared for free tier skipping
      • Consumed by sending mail to other players (not friend/guild invites)
        Materials
      • Introduced through playing the Clockworks (drops from enemies)
      • Introduced through token exchange (Brinks, Sullivan)
      • Consumed by crafting

Without any knowledge of specific values, what would you say has the highest value of the three? In a brief piece of notes I lazily describe how guild upgrades could be done through a crafting process which consumes majoritively materials and crowns rather than energy as equipment does. Equipment eats a lot of energy, guilds eat a lot of materials and more crowns than equipment does; to form a guild has energy consumption involved, but more materials and crowns would be consumed with a commonly requested feature.

Would you like fries with that?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 04:49
#2
Artistbma's picture
Artistbma
@OP F2Ps don't have the

@OP

F2Ps don't have the energy to make armor...

I'm F2P, and I've almost raised enough for a snarbolax set. Sure, the transition from 3* to 4* is the longest and hardest but still.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 07:07
#3
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

"Every Terminal you hit would activate a Crown multiplier, so the longer you go the more you make"

Do you think it'll be simple to find balance?
Say i want to kill Vanaduke: It takes 40ce to go from moorcroft to d23 terminal, then another 50 to do FSC. I get a multiplier but the levels before FSC dont give much rewards. I may as well take the shrotcut, wich would allow me to do FSC twice and still win more crowns due to level differences.

"Maybe something story related that we all have to pitch in for at one point. Maybe a raid boss that requires players to sink in more energy than usual."

Shadow Lairs.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 08:09
#4
Derpules's picture
Derpules
One point I think you're very mistaken on

"There really aren't a lot of ways to use the Crowns and Energy you've accumulated after curbstomping Vanaduke for the umpteenth time. Sure there's always new equipment that MAY come out, but what are you going to do in the meantime? Play Lockdown? Try the Shadow Lairs?
This overabundance is part of the problem that contributes to the inflation of the Energy market."

1) If all you're doing is farming Vana, no, you won't have a surplus of CE/cr. Want to make another 5* weapon from scratch? That's days of heavy farming (or weeks if you're only running on mist). Want a simple side blade to put on your armour? That's about a dozen Vana runs if you use only mist, and a lot more if you use CE. The only players who accumulate surplus CE/cr do so by merchanting and/or paying. And trust me, when you have that surplus wealth, you do find things to spend it on.

2) It doesn't make sense that an overabundance of *both* CE and cr would cause CE prices to rise. That should only happen if there's too much cr and not enough CE. To achieve your stated objective, you'd want crown sinks but not CE sinks.

*

I really like your multiplier idea, though.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 15:36
#5
Deltikon's picture
Deltikon
My idea is to cut the CE necessary to craft in half.

Just with that, it immediately cuts the grinding in half, and that's without even using mist tanks. I even made a thread about it, for those who care: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/62811

Of course it might not just be enough. KoA mission also need a good whopping with the nerfbat. For starters, it should only be playable once. You finish the mission and that's it (you still can invite players who already did it though...). Same thing for the other boss missions, for a bit of consistency. And it that doesn't solve the problem, make the crown dropping the equivalent of the danger missions, which is very little for what I've seen.

Still, your ideas ain't bad OP, they could help too.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:33
#6
Zopyros-Il's picture
Zopyros-Il
Thanks for the input guys

Kind of relieved I didn't get immediately shunned into a corner. Didn't know that another thread like this had cropped up, so I'll keep it as short as I can so i can just address the replies and then we can let this thread go off to the graveyard.

@Luguiru
Thanks for setting me straight on a lot of the finer details about the problems going on. I guess that's what I get for not playing as often. The factor of the elevator passes makes this a trickier business than I thought. Overall, it seems too intricate a problem for me and a lot of others to even comprehend fully.
And for materials, maybe something similar to Wakfu's method of using materials? Have a universal/server wide project that acts as a sink. Everyone donates materials to complete this project that would open up something new for everyone to enjoy. Maybe like a gigantic treasure chest that spits out items once a month if you feed it enough materials or maybe even "building" the new Lockdown arenas they keep making? This would have to cost A LOT of materials if the problem is as bad as you say it is though.
Perhaps OOO should take a note from Valve and hire an economist to look at this problem if they haven't already. Would still take some time, but maybe they could see a solution more easily.

And if you've got curly fries, I'll take a large order to go.

@Artistbma
It's not a problem of whether or not it's possible to get a 5-Star set, Shadow Lair or not, it's about how much grinding it takes to get to that point. I commend and admire you for getting that far, I really do, but I know that a lot of Spiral Knights players don't have the willpower to do the same. They get lost along the way due to just how repetitive the daily grind gets.

@Little-Juances
With the multiplier idea, I was thinking that all Crown outputs would have to be severely nerfed to accommodate a change like that, especially the Firestorm Citadel. Heading down to Emberlight to take advantage of the Citadel's output should only yield a little bit more than if you had just done the King of Ashes mission. The only time the multiplier would even begin to be noticeable is after a lot of floors, though that brings up the problems that Luguiru brought up about the elevator passes.
And I was thinking of something different than Shadow Lairs. Just a huge Energy cost at the beginning to get a single shot at taking down a boss. No stages before it or anything, just a straight-up boss fight. And maybe make it only available daily, like the Vindictus' daily raids and our prestige missions.

@Derpules
Thanks for the insight into the whole Crowns/Energy thing. I just kind of assumed the people who would do endless Vanaduke runs were always buying Energy with it and keeping it, which is actually kind of silly and I don't know why I thought that.
I'm glad you like the multiplier idea, but as the other guys pointed out, it does need some work...

Alright, that's just about it. I guess I'll just rethink a few of these, see if I can figure out something more workable and then post it in the other thread that's out there.
For now, is there a way to somehow lock this so it doesn't clutter up the suggestions forum?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:06
#7
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru
Honk

I was referring to players being able to contribute money and experience from themselves to the guild, not using materials. In Spiral Knights we have heat instead of experience. For guilds there could be something (trinket, armor) which takes heat as a regular item but gives it to your guild the same way normal equipment gets heat. Crowns could be used to purchase various guild improvements such as features for the hall, member expansion, et cetera; materials would be used to actually build the stuff.

For example, in the thread for guild improvements there is a section for guild hall furnishings. To make those furnishings the guild would pay crowns for the ability to create certain kinds of furnishings, then build those furnishings using materials. I only used Wakfu as a reference because that game has a lot of community reliance whereas Spiral Knights currently has very little supportive ability which is actually helpful. Going solo is too easy in this game and going in parties has very few incentives.

Back to material sinks, it would be at least a hundred 1*- materials for a small chair or something tiny; it would eat a lot of materials. The crown sink part would be buying recipes to craft guild improvements (this would involve a guild bank where people can deposit but only people cleared to withdraw may do so; this is another feature from Wakfu). Guild upgrade recipes would be bought only from funds within the guild bank (materials used to craft guild items would also deposited in this bank, not directly from player arsenals). Not personal banks, a bank just for the guild. Personal banks would be redundant since our arsenals have infinite storage space. Guilds get a bank because they need to know what they are allowed to use. Everyone in the guild would be able to deposit but only the leader and officers/a new second in command rank would be able to withdraw. In Wakfu guilds have a system which gives ranks actual meaning, where the leader has the right to do basically anything (except force other members to give experience, money, or activities such as depositing into the guild bank; the bank is unlocked only when the guild reaches a certain level) and regular members have no rights (they can give experience to the guild, but nothing else). Other than those two the guild leader can create other ranks and change the names of any rank (including leader and regular members) as they please. There are certain rights which can be given to other members (the leader can create a rank which has the power to do certain things but not other things) including:

  • Recruit a member
  • Remove a member
  • Change the rank of another member
  • Create/Edit/Delete a rank
  • Withdraw from the guild bank

Anyone can deposit in the guild bank and choose how much of their experience they give to the guild.

I am going to stop before I write derpbillion lines on guild stuff here.

Let me put it this way: a lot of people have over a couple thousand materials in their arsenals right now.

If you want to get rid of this thread edit its location to rest in peace.

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