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Disallow Heart Trinkies in LD: Bring Back the Teamwork~

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Sat, 12/01/2012 - 08:33
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady

So, after finding myself lately discussing Heart Trinkies repeatedly, especially in this thread, I figured it was about time I got a thread started to dedicate my feelings towards these game-breakers, rather than just posting the same big rant over and over again.

Basically, the tl;dr version is that they're not inherently OP, but they start off a chain reaction in stats and player attitudes that completely breaks the dynamic of lockdown, by shifting the balance of class roles primarily onto strikers since they completely negate a fundamental drawback that they were designed to have. Support classes get ignored/forgotten while strikers try to do everything themselves. Because they can do everything themselves; which is counter-intuitive for a game designed for class mixing and co-operation between class roles.

So, the "too long" version, for those who want to see the specifics of my thought train, and understand fully the argument behind this. I warn you, it is a lengthy blether, but I won't be happy if someone posts a big ranting debate based entirely on the tl;dr version without reading why I think that.

Strikers vs Strikers
Ever been up against a Striker as a "legit Striker" without heart trinkies? Even if you're rolling your sword trinkies and have max:max and they have no UVs (only damage and class asi) you'll find yourself hurting a lot. You can hit them fast and hard, but you need to hit them 3/4+ times to bring them down. They only need to hit you twice. This means that you need to focus your attention on dodging and surviving, rather than causing damage, while they (despite having lower stats) can just chill and swing around until you die. This demotes using strikers as intended, knowing that all other strikers you face will be equipped with hearts; it's just not worth it to run without them as a striker. If everyone did, then it'd be equal grounds and come down to skill/fun/[the usual stuff] but since they have double your hp, and since they all have double your hp, you'll find yourself overwhelmed completely. It can be done, but it's hard. Very hard. And if you had heart trinkies, you'd simply do a lot better. No two ways about it.

Strikers vs Recons
Complete domination here. With recon cloaks being flawed (foot prints, one-hit-break, reduced speed) against the strikers unbreakable boost power, they can swarm all over you and have you dropped before you even know what happened. Recons' power comes from the element of surprise, and hitting them before they get a chance to react. A no-heart striker will be half-dead by the time he's aware you're there, which balances off his booster against you. A heart striker gets hit, laughs it off, and floods you, knowing that even if you hit him 2/3 more times, he can still survive. A striker with as much hp as a recon with a booster totally breaks this dynamic. Gunner recons have a chance because they never really need to be that close, but even then the booster lets them catch up quickly, and the heart trinkies give them enough health for a massive margin of error in chasing you. A no-heart striker would need to be a lot more cautious and couldn't just headrush a recon gunner.

Strikers vs Guardians
Guardians' shields break pretty easily against strikers. This is to balance the fact that Guards have double the hp of your "typical" striker. This means that a no-hp striker would need to be cautious when trying to break the shield, as a Guard can simply swing between shielding and hit their hp hard. Even 2/3 of these low damage swings would kill a striker before he ever managed to break that shield, or certainly before he managed to kill the Guardian. This would mean that Strikers wouldn't want to mess with a Guard without backup.
However, thanks to Hearts giving Strikers as much hp as your average Guardian, they can simply zerg rush in and break that shield without caring about the guardians attacks, knowing that they can not only outdamage and outspeed the guardian, but also out-tank them. This puts guardians in a very weak position and almost guarantees they need to work with a team to get anywhere, unless they happen to also be using your skolver+hearts clone loadout.

Guardians & Recons with Hearts
Endless. Not much more need be said; by utilising the same combo of UVs and heart trinkies that strikers do, these classes can have ridiculously high hp and just survive forever. An Ancient Plate set and some Heart trinkies and they can sit back behind their shields, hazes, guns etc and just tank on and on, tanking caps against large groups. It's not the most OP thing in the game, and certainly not the primary reason why they need to be removed, but if anyone ever complains about "We want fights to last longer, OHKOs are boring etc" I'd just like to point out these classes using Hearts; as they are what makes the game long and arduous. Ofc, this doesn't happen often as those classes don't get the quite so direct bonuses that strikers do, and as such would be left as a completely defensive class, but it can occur.

Team Dynamic
This is the big one. This is the main reason; this is why Heart Trinkies break Lockdown. The team dynamic gets completely skewed.
Strikers, as glass cannons like intended, are supposed to chill with their guardian buddies and use their gunner and bomber friends as backup to ensure that they remain victorious. They push slightly forward, under a shield with bullets flying past and that low hp doesn't matter; the target is too distracted and swarmed to focus on killing the low hp striker with full attention. This is a good team dynamic, as it encourages everyone to work together. Even in small pairs; a striker protecting a bomber, a gunner backing up a striker/guardian, a recon hiding alongside a striker etc. It encourages teamwork.

Currently, strikers have the ability to tank better than all other classes, since their boost can't be broken by others, they can reach max:max stats, they have the same hp as everyone else, and dat dodge makes them hard as nails to hit. They don't need a guardian; they'd only slow them down. They don't need a recon waiting for the hit; they can kill them faster on their own. They don't need a bomber; they can't get hit anyways. It encourages strikers that they are the godmode, that they can rush ahead and do everything and anything they want. Because they can. Nothing's stopping them, and their team doesn't really help them that much. They'd much rather three other strikers next to them.

On the offset, that doesn't sound too bad, allowing strikers to tank better. But it gives them a bad attitude; it lets them think they can do everything alone, without their team. Now, where does this leave our support classes? Bombers, recons, guardians? In the dust. The classes that rely on supporting strikers suddenly have no strikers to support (because they can't keep up with that dash) and are left alone. An enemy striker walks up and what can they do? Not much.
Bombers are left to cap points alone, at the constant risk of hairy death; guardians have no one to shield except the few "bad players" who can't solo the entire enemy team. Recons are left to assassinate targets that have more hp and damage and speed and powers than them, without any backup. Basically, with the strikers rushing around doing their thing, the support classes are left as fodder for the enemy teams' strikers without any backup or dps support. There is no teamwork involved anymore.

So! Where does this leave us? With guardians that make dps builds to survive on their own. Bombers need to equip polaris' to counter the barrage of enemy polaris' and striker masses. Recons that don't even bother assassinating any more and just gun/bomb instead. Bombers that never try to dps because the only class that they could kill has the same hp as everyone else. Gunners that feel recon gunning is pointless, so just roll striker as well to counter that boost. We have a "team dynamic" where everyone is trying to go solo. A race for damage, no need to others, no co-operation. Even the people that scream "Capcapcap" down the party channel are rarely seen protecting the support classes.

Won't strikers just rush ahead anyways?
Some will. The pro, awesome players who can kill everyone without being hit will anyways, and fine; if they're skilled enough (or have low enough ping) then sure, we could use a front-liner helping out. But they can't be lazy. They can't face whole teams and just not care about being hit. Assassinations will be a perpetual threat. There's not much margin for error, so they would have to be on the top of their game or they'd just be counterproductive. The majority of strikers would stick with a teammate and work as groups; backup the supporter etc. Right now, that doesn't happen much, if ever. Support classes get ignored and left for dead by all the strikers, not just one particularly skilled one.

All because of one trinket?
As crazy as it seems, yes. It's a massive chain reaction; a catalyst that just explodes everything out of shape. It's a game where we are all meant to be working together as a unit, a team. As soon as someone has the ability to do everything themselves without any support, it leaves the other classes in the wind, forcing them to try and find ways to survive solo as well, often resulting in them just giving up and resorting to "becoming a clone" as well, since it seems to work the best. It's a balance, making everyone work together. We need to bring back that balance instead of just further encouraging players to work solo. With the advent of Punch/UV locking, strikers can now ignore bombers half the time which has pushed them further into uselessness; but if the striker had no hearts, then that bomber may still be able to actually fight back with a sidearm, since he can out-tank them. But as long as they have more hp/damage/speed/boost, that's simply not likely to happen.

So they need to go. Of all the people that cry and whinge about AA, UVs, ping, lag, hacking, cheating, OPness, etc, no one ever seems to comment that heart trinkies are the worst of the lot. Possibly because the majority of these QQrs are clones who also wear them and don't like calling others "noob" for something they're doing, but the fact of the matter is that AA or no AA, UVs or no UVs, removing them won't make much of a difference in gameplay ultimately. Removing heart trinkies will force all players to work as a team, and play the game normally.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 08:44
#1
Xenonguard's picture
Xenonguard
Interesting...

Looks like you have a very well thought out post here. Would this apply to all trinkets which can turn the tide of the battle, or just heart trinkets?

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 08:53
#2
Doctorspacebar's picture
Doctorspacebar

Some people would get upset over their "lost" Heart Trinkets, but I would like to see an increase in assassinations by Recons. Might actually give me an excuse to make a sword!

I have two Tri-Hearts and I +1 this. Our average Striker will adapt, and might invest in some Sword-boosting trinks (Quick Strike or Sword Focus) or even something to boost that irritating Polaris, but they'll be a (somewhat) fair match for someone without Trinkets!

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 08:59
#3
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
@Neon:Just hearts. I'd like

@Neon:
Just hearts. I'd like to see other trinkies used more, but with only "medium" bonuses they're pretty lacklustre. Although it would give UVd strikers something else to use, to aim towards further immunities. I reckon other trinkies deserve a bit of a buff, but that's for another thread. Hearts are the problem in my mind, as they just create too many problems that def/status trinkies simply won't/don't.

@Doc:
Sure, but they could still use them in CW, and heart trinkies aren't too expensive or time-consuming to make. I was pretty upset about losing my RSS but I don't see anyone other than bombers caring about that, so why should strikers be given more attention when the hearts give them a clear and outright advantage over everyone?
But aye; assassinating rigth now is hard. Fast swords simply don't cut it; at all. Doesn't work. You almost exclusively need a sealed sword (even Troikas are just too slow) and you need it to have max asi at that, so you can get back into cloak quickly, since they just spin around, boost to you and swing back. It's possible right now, but really risky and still tends to involve a lot of deaths~

And aye; althuogh strikers may lose the hearts, they'd stil open up two trinket slots, saving them needing UVs. Or if they already have UVs, could get dun damage mods for their polaris/blaster/stormy etc. Plenty of options out there; they woudln't just simply "lose out".

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:04
#4
Zephyrgon's picture
Zephyrgon
Wanna know how to balance LD?

There are many issues here. Because of health trinkies, LD became a onesided striker fight. Kinda upset the balance between classes. But if you expect to actually be good in LD and not have good gear, then I don't know what else to say. Striker is also way too overpowered because of their HUGE mobility ingame, plus their booster charges faster than the recon and guardian's.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 09:32
#5
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Lol Zephy; I'm not entirely

Lol Zephy; I'm not entirely sure whether you're agreeing with me or not xD

This isn't as much about "I have crappy gear and don't like that rich players beat me". I don't play striker because I don't enjoy striker much, but even when I do take the fancy, know I don't have all that gear and cbf crafting Hearts. This is more apparent to me because most of my loadouts are bombers, which have a heavy reliance on support and being defended by my teams strikers, but then realising that 90% of the time I'm left alone because all the strikers are off camping the spawn while I try to cap and get ganked by some passing enemy.
Guardian, gunner, recon, assassin; all my class roles are more or less support, but I find that I'm perpetually alone and being left without anyone to support or protect me, because none of the strikers need a support class, despite the fact that their heart trinkies don't mean that I don't need a dps class.

I don't want to play striker just because the support classes are on the verge of unplayable due to lack of teamwork; I want to play my favourite classes. Just means I'm being forced to try and orientate my builds around the assumption that I will be left alone, which immediately makes me realise how screwed the balance has become. A support class should never have to assume they will be left alone the entire match; there's something wrong for sure.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:13
#6
Dendios's picture
Dendios
Although I like to live a bit

Although I like to live a bit or "much" longer than I am supposed to, I agree with disallowing Heart Trinkets in LD. Plus, that would encourage on using another trinkets....oh wait... people will whine about that later, won't they ?

Anyways +1

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 11:19
#7
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Although I like to live a bit

Although I like to live a bit or "much" longer than I am supposed to

It's actually not overly hard to run as a legit striker. I can usually get 10k+ (and have had top damage before) with my Vog and Suda with Slash Mods. Surviving long isn't the problem inherently, as much as it is to survive other strikers who have the same gear/stats, but double the hp as you.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 15:38
#8
Severage's picture
Severage
...

This is an entirely different problem altogether, but...just throwing this out there.

I have heart trinkies (They're not pentas because I'd rather not waste the CE) - I don't use them in LD. However, I find them quite useless in the Clockworks as well. They throw LD out of balance, but in the Clockworks you don't need them at all.

The only reason to even have heart trinkets is for LD. In substitution, I don't think it would be a bad idea for OOO to bring out some Clockworks levels that having heart trinkets is an advantage. Of course, that purely depends on player skill, but if we're talking about the "pros" who used to use their heart trinkets in LD, one would assume it'd have to be a fairly difficult level for the trinkets to give an advantage.

Simply said, a danger mission that uses Shadow, Elemental, and Piercing damages all in the same level, would be something that warrants some extra health perhaps. Without Arsenal Stations between every fight, preferably.

Just throwing that out there...anyway +1 of course.

~Sev

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 16:41
#9
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Oh, I am aware of that

Oh, I am aware of that predicament; I just don't like to ignore that they're utterly OP in one place because they're not so useful elsewhere. It's like RSS; it doesn't matter where they were or could be used; it was the only viable DPS weapon in LD but we lost it anyways. I wouldn't be opposed to them buffing heart trinkies for the sake of CW usage while they denied them for LD, but even if not then there are other options. Right now all I can see is that in LD they completely throw it into chaos, despite how low the bonuses may be, and that's what I'd rather fix~

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 17:49
#10
Severage's picture
Severage
@Brady:

Just peering into my crystal ball. =P

I wasn't suggesting buffing them for CW though, I'm not saying they're useless because they aren't powerful. I'm saying they're useless because nobody needs extra HP in the Clockworks. If there were no such things as Vitapods they'd be useful, but there are, and you rarely need more HP than a vitapod gives in its respective tier.

Rather, I was suggesting a Clockworks stage where health would be more useful than gear choice, and a mixture of skill (avoidance) and health would be the key to survival, due to the fact that the mix of enemies would be unpreventable by your gear.

~Sev

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 18:39
#11
Flowchart's picture
Flowchart
-

I've seen clones use them in PvE since they don't have the right gear. Fiends? Skolver+heart trinkets. FSC? Skolver+heart trinkets. Danger missions? Skolver+heart trinkets. etc.

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 21:31
#12
Severage's picture
Severage
@Flowchart:

lol...Were it up to me, I would have never made the Heart Trinkets. But since they're there, I was simply attempting to accommodate them into the CW.

~Sev

Sat, 12/01/2012 - 22:29
#13
Blue-Flood's picture
Blue-Flood
I agree. Used to have

I agree. Used to have awesome bouts with Lowric. (me striker gunner, him recon skolver). Just took 1.5 hits to get me, and he usually did. Now even if I have 1 heart trinket i can survive 2 hits most of the time, which forces him to have to recloak and reevaluate the situation EVEN IF he gets his two hits in - which gives me the advantage since i can spray bullets in a pretty wide area when pressured.

I think the first power clone I ever faced with heart trinkets was Rubyeclypse. I was like "wtf i shoot you like 6 times and you live and you off me in 1 hit". That was before they were available to the public. Now it's just a common thing... asi max, damage max, two heart trinkets... after a few games i just gota stop cause it gets frustrating with the advantage they have. Either that or just rage and make myself look like a whiney prick :p

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 04:10
#14
Aureate's picture
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

+1
I know I'm not a terrible LD player, and I used get in my fair share of kills as a recon, but nowadays I find myself having trouble getting enough damage in before the striker manages to kill me again. It's ridiculous when they can take 5 hits from a Flamberge without even running off for healing. So yeah, I'd have to be against LD heart trinkets.
They make the game needlessly hard for those who are just starting out and can't afford them, and discourage team play - which is what the game is meant to be about in the first place.

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 18:18
#15
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Would like to see some

Would like to see some strikers who use the trinkies putting their opinions forward.

I mean, I don't think that using them should automatically make you against this idea (@Blueflood). For example, I use a multitude of immunity sets for anti-bomber loadouts to shut down any bombers I see, but personally I'm very opposed to 100% immunity to hazes. But I still use it, because it works currently.
However, that doesn't mean that I can't see that it's a pretty unfair mechanic, and I'd happily see it gone.

To that end, this thread isn't just attacking anyone who does use it; I'm aware that some people will accept that something is OP, but will still use it because they want to be competitive and play; not everyone is going to just boycott something they think is "bad" when it's the only/best way to actually play the game.

Would be good to see some strikers who use heart trinkies agreeing with this, or even sharing their opinions on the matter (agree or otherwise) for the sake of discussion and to continue the thread. Similarly, I'd like to hear the opinions of the folk who actually disagree with this completely, as I'm curious to hear if anyone actually thinks the game needs Heart Trinkies, and why. Personally it's completely beyond me, but I'm sure at least some people out there think they're needed.

Saying that, I've taken to mentioning this in LD. Every time someone complains about polaris, AA, noob, combos etc, I just respond with "nice heart trinkies". Everything else seems to create arguments that last the whole match or longer, but as soon as heart trinkies are mentioned, everyone just shuts up completely; it ends the discussion immediately. This leads me to believe that everyone knows full well they're broken and just don't like to openly admit it, but I may be wrong.

Either way, let's keep this discussion going folks :)

Sun, 12/02/2012 - 19:35
#16
Autofire's picture
Autofire
It's important to note that...

T3 is imbalanced. The classes don't get evenly changed. They were engineered to work over T2. T1 gives some extra advantages, and T3 gives others too minor nerfs. In T2, I have a single Tri-heart pendant, and I am a recon. I can own the whole enemy team of strikers, some I'm certain have UVs due to the huge damage they have. Once, I had my team of 4 got 2 DCers, and that means the two of us vs. 4.

I killed them all. SOLO. I have no UVs other then a fire low which didn't effect at all. Either they were bad (and some of them were), or recons are that much better in T2.

Keep in mind that heart trinkets will do a lot less if this is done. (I'm talking about HP scaling. This would take into account the HP gained through trinkets, so a penta-heart pendant of 6 HP will be 3 or so on a striker of HP is halved. I think this is a fair change in itself, meaning that, if guardians get double HP, they can have +9 HP per trinket. That's a lot.

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 04:38
#17
Glittertind

"T3 is imbalanced. The classes don't get evenly changed." -Autofire

This. So much.
You sorta missed that part Brady (as far as I could see). At least when it comes to guardians that is. Just think about it.

How many hearts do you have in T1/T2? Not so many, usually.
How many do you have in T3 with level 10 five star gear? Tons.

And how much do guardians heal through T1, T2 and T3? Half a heart every second (I think?)...
It's a bit discouraging to say the least... It's a very long health bar, and the healing ability doesn't do much difference in T3. I don't really want to know how long it would take one guardian to fill an entire skolver clones (with penta-hearts) health bar.
Though, I would be surprised if no one at Three Rings knew about this.

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 04:56
#18
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Now I agree with that in

Now I agree with that in principle, but keep in mind that strikers weren't meant to have pentas, so healing a striker up fully would actually get done fairly quickly. Whenever I roll striker I don't have pentas, so I hang around guardians when I can, and I can tell you that the half heart/sec does actually heal it up fairly quickly, since they have so few hps to begin with.

I am aware that the class bonuses aren't well scaled for each tier, but I also feel that they're not bad as such, and still work fairly well with all other things considered. No matter how much I think about it, or what I add to the thought train, it always comes down to the Hearts for me. Without them, strikers heal to full pretty fast under a guardian shield despite the half/sec. Without them, we don't need hp scaling to be percentage based, as most of the reasons percentage scaling is suggested is purely to suit heart trinkies and make them "fair", which they'll never really be.

As I said in my OP, I don't think it's fair even having guardians with trinkies, and percentage scaling just makes it even worse for them. You ever tried to fight a guardian with pentas? It's just not even fun, it honestly takes that long. I get people not wanting OHKO fights, but when it takes 10 slow sword swings + shield breaking to kill a single guy, you just get bored.
Sayin' that, idk why people use that excuse anyways. Most strikers can still kill your average recon in 2/3 swings tops, and weapons like brandish charges can outright OHKO even recons. As much as people say they want fights to "last longer and be more fun", they do everything in their power to make sure that everyone with less than 30 hearts dies in an instant. Even on my recon class I can get killed disgustingly quickly. To me, it just comes off as a petty rationalisation as to why strikers should get to have as much hp as the other two classes that don't get any offensive bonuses.

...tangent? I think so...kinda losin' my train of thought here, am pretty sleepy x.x

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 10:52
#19
Nottheanswer's picture
Nottheanswer
~

Interesting thoughts. I agree that health values across the classes don't feel correct right now. Removing health trinkets could fix this, as could rebalancing the health bonuses/detriments for the classes.

The one issue I would have with removal of health trinkets is that it leaves virtually no effective trinket options in T1 and T2. T3 would still have damage/ASI/CTR trinkets, but T1 and T2 would be left with resistance trinkets, which have virtually no effect at the 1* and 3* level.

Unrelated sidenote: I hope to run into you, Autofire. Always good to see Recons in T2.

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 13:42
#20
Severage's picture
Severage
...

The one issue I would have with removal of health trinkets is that it leaves virtually no effective trinket options in T1 and T2.

I don't see that as a problem. T1 and T2 players aren't meant to have many trinkets - or trinket slots for that matter. The only ones that do are T3 players who play in T1 and T2 LD, leaving any actual T1 and T2 players crushed under their heels. Only a new player who immediately jumped to P2P status (Not so common) would have something like that.

In my view, trinkets are built as a nearly endgame equipment slot, just like Weapon Slots. It's not really expected that you have those luxuries at T1 and T2.

~Sev

Mon, 12/03/2012 - 20:10
#21
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
That's actually a really good

That's actually a really good point, Sev. Wouldn't have thought of that, myself~

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 12:20
#22
Atacii
...

Gunning guards is always a little tedious. Gunning guards with heart trinkets is just awful. I usually just ignore guardians as it can take me a minute to kill a well-played one. Same thing with bombers of any class. It's true that guns beat bombs...but it takes so long I rarely bother.

While I agree heart trinkets might unbalance classes, I don't agree it necessarily affects the way people play( other than choosing striker). I don't use heart trinkets as a striker but still go solo. No whispers from the universe to embrace teamwork. =)

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 15:50
#23
Severage's picture
Severage
...

While I agree heart trinkets might unbalance classes, I don't agree it necessarily affects the way people play( other than choosing striker). I don't use heart trinkets as a striker but still go solo.

I disagree with your disagreement.

Without heart trinkets, spawn-camping at bases would happen far less often. If you had to return to heal every time you got hit, like a Striker without heart trinkets, you wouldn't camp the other side of the map. At best, you would camp it until you died.

If you go solo as a Striker without heart trinkets, then that's a faulty strategy in itself. To not embrace teamwork when you're at a disadvantage is your own flaw, not one that will be acted out by everyone. Even if it is, there are more ways than teamwork that heart trinkets affect game play, like the scenario described above.

In addition to those, it's more likely that people who aren't very good at Striker will get tired of being 2-shot from any weapon and switch to supporting classes, where they can assist their team with persistent caps, back-caps, and healing injured Strikers so they don't have to run to the base. Currently, Guardian's healing ability is useless because of heart trinkets.

~Sev

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 15:54
#24
Spookington's picture
Spookington
Food for thought:

Hmm... Remove pentas, but give every class 2 pentas worth of health.

I bring this up because even though I would love to see the farking things removed, it brings back the problem that caused strikers to shift more towards being super-tanks in the first place: OHKO's. With those 2 trinket slots freed up, more players could then go for things like max damage and ASI on weps like the GF and DA without needing to even spend a buttload of cash on Punch. You should know as a non-penta striker that those things kill in one hit, maybe 2 if you're lucky and have the right armor. For what b****ing I used to do in LD back when I was new to it, the usual answer i got from the typical god-mode strikers was that pentas were the first things towards balance in response to the absolutely ridiculous damage some of these weapons do.

Sooo... why not just automatically give everyone 2xPenta health and avoid the problem of OHKOs?

Behind you all the way, though. Pentas are much more of a game-breaker than RSS's ever were.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 16:22
#25
Shidara's picture
Shidara
Heart Pendants

I'm not quite sure what to say to this one. On one hand, being able to withstand more than two or three hits is quite a relief. On the other, I (to some degree) have become a monster, much like any other veteran striker (more so other veteran strikers) that are currently dominating the meta-game.

The appeal of going guardian is the massive health buff and the shield; the art of defense.
The appeal of going recon is stealth and surprise; the art of the ninja-- erm, support.
The appeal of going striker is the speed and power; the art of assault.

With heart pendants, strikers get both speed and power and get to tack on the health of a guardian, making them a greater threat than ever before, and the appeal of bearing a shield as a guardian is quickly lost to that of a speed-booster and increased offensive capabilities. Granted, there are still great guardians out there, but the issue at hand is that strikers went from being dangerous glass cannons to dangerous steel cannons. Being countered hurts, but is not as punishing as it were when it took away half of your health.

Personally, I'm fine either way. If they stay, I can take more hits. If they go, I can tack on some of those modules that only sit there and collect dust until I decide it's time to venture the Clockworks but also shelve the heart pendants into the same position. I like having a use for my items, and beyond Lockdown I personally have little-to-no use for heart pendants. Maybe when I get the best UVs on my weapons I can use them in the Clockworks for the health overkill, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Tue, 12/04/2012 - 19:56
#26
Darkshaodw's picture
Darkshaodw
Having fun is all that

Having fun is all that matters right?

For the empty clones too scared to comment...

If OOO made the trinkets for everyone to use anyway, that means we can use them anyway we want! Including ld! Are you talking away our rights.

From most clones

Think of an answer someone, because I'm not as good as you guys

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:17
#27
Severage's picture
Severage
...

If OOO made the trinkets for everyone to use anyway, that means we can use them anyway we want! Including ld! Are you talking away our rights.

If OOO never made a patch that was ever unbalanced in any way or had any negative feedback whatsoever, sure.
(See: FSC Mission crown rates...gun modifications (multiple times)...armor set rebalancing...etc.)

But OOO changes many things based on player feedback. Many Penta-users only use Pentas because they have to in order to compete. Few would be angry about losing them, because the playing field would still be even. Even more non-penta-users would be glad because they wouldn't need pentas to compete in the first place.

It's a win-win.

~Sev

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:39
#28
Shidara's picture
Shidara
Addendum; Speculation

I can also see that if heart pendants were to be banned from Lockdown as if to "level the playing field" then demands to ban other annoyances such as pulsar handguns, rocket hammers, auto target (oh wait...), flourishes, etc. are likely to surface going by the logic that "if heart pendants were banned, so should these" or something along those lines.

Not saying it would necessarily happen, rather I'm trying to raise awareness that similar petitions are likely to arise if this passes. And then, what if they pass as well?

Just something to keep in mind. If a negative chain-reaction is caused because of this, I'd rather heart pendants stay and try to focus on balancing out other classes with heart pendants in mind, despite Brady being against the idea.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 02:56
#29
Severage's picture
Severage
@Shidara:

None of those, save for the Hammer due to the exclusiveness of the OCH update, are out of reach for your casual player.

Rather, some of those can be changed by clicking a button, and the rest are weapons. Weapons are totally different than trinkets.

The playing field is already leveled in the case of any weapons, save OCH, because all of those (For some 1500 CE) are multi-purpose. You don't just use them in LD.

Heart trinkets, on the other hand, are only used in LD since extra health is totally useless in the Clockworks (Who really needs that much HP?), and cost around 3k CE for two of them. That's a steep price just to play LD. Adding the 500 CE/30D onto that, and you get a minimum of ~3.5K CE just to accrue and be able to use them for a month. Only for LD. While all other weapons cost less than half of that (And even less the longer you keep your slots open), and are useful in the Clockworks.

The only exception is the Hammer which is P2P-exclusive. The Hammer is the only petition I can see that would be rational at first glance to request its ban, except one thing. It's pure dollars. Not CE that can be purchased by a rich F2P player, but pure dollars. OOO will never ban, or exempt from any activity, a weapon that costs several dollars on its own. I don't blame OOO for that, it's just not good business.

Although I do have to say that it was not good business to make it P2P-exclusive in the first place - Aphrodite has said they are "working on it" (Making it CE-purchasable/Other-than-Steam-purchasable).

Finally, weapons don't unbalance classes. There is no change in balancing between who uses what - all classes are affected in the same way with their weapon choice. In the case of heart trinkets, not everyone has the ability to use them. And, they do change balancing. Strikers are already, because of many reasons that I will not go over here for the millionth time, superior to the other classes. Heart trinkets amplify this, increasing the gap between Strikers and the other classes.

That being said, Spookington's suggestion wasn't a bad one either, granted classes were re-balanced.

~Sev

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 07:57
#30
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Oooft, a lot got said while I

Oooft, a lot got said while I was asleep o_o...

Mkk, where to start...

@Atacii/Severage:
I'd be fine with low heart strikers going off on their own; that's their choice entirely. Even if you can still solo an entire team. The fact is that you're going off on your own aware that you have disadvantages. If you just started dying all the time and the team fell behind because of you, you would be to blame. If you still managed to solo everyone, then you're clearly a skilled striker who doesn't need hearts to do your job. The problem with hearts is that it removes the disadvantage and just lets you go off on your own despite it, skilful or otherwise.
And aye, spawn camping simply wouldn't be an issue. Right now it's a pain because even gunners take ages to shoot down campers. Without heart trinkies, all you'd need to do is stand behind the forcefield and shoot. Attrition would quickly solve the problem.

@"hearts in CW discussion":
It may not sound like much, but support classes can use heart trinkies in the CW to great effect. For example, my pure support hazer loadouts have no purpose for trinky slots, so might as well toss some hearts in there and essentially get a free vita to back me up while I run around hazing the world~
Just to put that out there :)

@Spookington:
Remove hearts then give everyone them back for free? Doesn't that entirely defeat the point? Sure it'd give the other classes the ability to tank an extra couple of hits from strikers, but right now the main problem isn't that "they live as long as everyone else" as much as it is that "they live longe rthan they should". Strikers that can tank 4 hits are pushing the game into their side, as we can clearly see from any game of LD.

However, since I rarely see an instance of a maxed stat recon with heart pendants against a max stat striker with hearts, I coudln't say exactly how unbalanced it would be any more. At the best case, this would make all fights in the game longer (and owuld make killing guardians absolutely boring), and at worst case just sounds like an excuse to give strikers more health because a large chunk of current pros are afraid to ever try using low health (and/or have never played striker without trinkies). Forgive me if I'm wrong about either one, but fact is that a lot of strikers just haven't actually played LD without them, and have no idea how to do so.

@Darkshadow:
We also don't get shields in LD. No BTS bonus? No Swifty? Is that also taking away our rights? What about bombers who enjoyed RSS and had that taken from us after being repeatedly told that we weren't going to lose the bomb? What about having bomb rads made glowing red so that it's on the verge of impossible to actually hit people with bombs? Swordies in this game get their every desire catered to on a silver platter; don't you talk to me about having rights taken away.
The point is that it's a clear abuse of the game. It's not like using your sword dmg:med trinky that gives you cappable stats; it pushes your hp from glass cannon into guardian hp. It massively changes the game, and isn't capped by any function. There's no rights stealing in asking for a balance returned.

@Shidara/Severage:
Although I understand your concern and see where you're coming from, Shidara, I'm with Severage on this one. Although it could be argued that with heart trinkets removed, other weapons should be as well, I feel it's not the same thing. For example, not everyone will carry a polaris. And not everyone will "spam" it. And not everyone who does will use it effectively (there may be a low skill ceiling involved, but that doesn't mean that it can't be used badly; oh, it most certainly can). And on top of that, there are counter-tactics that can be employed.
You have to have these weapons, use them, use them skilfully and then use them against counter-tactics.
Hearts? You have to have them. End. The only "counter-tactic" is to have someone else use them too, and recons/guards just don't get quite the same availability of that option, as their trinket slots are more urgently required for stats.
Every argument that's made about polaris being too cheap, easy and requires no effort is the same with hearts; ten fold. There's a zero skill ceiling, requires no effort, no time, takes no up trinket slots, no booster power, doesn't need to be switched out from other weapons etc. They just sit there and buff you indefinitely. Polaris can be defeated simply by getting close, or by spamming a faster one back, or by dodging if they're bad. There are more options. A heart striker comes at you; there's absolutely nothing you can do to counter the hearts.

As for AA...well, I'm on the side of "who really cares?" as I don't think it makes a massive amount of difference (in my experience) and the fact that nobody can actually agree whether it's a benefit or not.
I think the decision ultimately comes down to keyboard users; without AA they simply would not to be able to play LD. Removing a portion of players access to LD to appease QQrs that will immediately find something else to cry about would be a pretty bad decision, so I also feel this is separate to hearts~

However, with your speculation addendum, UVs may be next on the line. I can't argue that they're different as they are certainly close enough and OP enough. But I can't see UVs being removed being a cause for concern of balance loss for anyone other than those who completely rely on UVs to succeed, and coming from a bombers perspective, I wouldn't be against it anyways. Although I don't see that as likely to happen anyways, as UV rolling for LD is a massive cr sink/source of CE income for the game and removing it would be counter-intuitive to profits.

Although UVs being removed would also be less of a concern if hearts are removed, because then suddenly you have free trinket slots to utilise! Quick strike mods anyone, to counter those vh:asi? And for those who already do, grab two of your best wyrmwoods for max shock res and suddenly you only need "med" and "low" UVs for immunity. The trinket slots actually open the market up for lower income players, without being an absolutely requirement to have vh/max to keep up.
Ofc, I don't want this to turn into a discussion about UVs, but I do agree with a connection between them. Should hearts be removed and that come up next, I'll take part in that discussion and see what happens there.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 11:06
#31
Spookington's picture
Spookington
@ brady

Hm. Good point. My train of thought was essentially that instead of of "bringing strikers down" we instead could bring everybody else up to their level. My concern is with all the weps that kill in 2 hits when maxed out - by giving everybody 2 pentas worth of health, OP weps like the sealed swords can be downplayed, although it makes my favorite weps (Cutter series FTW!) even weaker.

I'd definitely prefer no pentas, but I do think weapon balance would need to be considered if any of what you said was to take effect.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 12:02
#32
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Aye, there are more

Aye, there are more complicated issues to be considered, but a lot of it (imo) comes down to the attitude of the striker themselves.

What I mean is that most strikers who read this thread will, in their head, jump to the last time they solo'd three other strikers and would think "I would never be able to do that if they killed me in two hits!" and dismiss it as a bad idea. The whole concept is that strikers are supposed to rely on their backup. Guardian shields, utilising haze bombs as defensive group, having a gunner shoot behind them etc. Using this, dodging those hits is much easier, and allows strikers to pop in quick and safe hits. I have played striker without hearts (even against whole teams of heart strikers) and can get high/top damage, as can others; "legit" strikers are by no means underpowered with their two-hp, it's just that many current strikers have become complacent in treating strikers as tank classes that can survive longer, when they were designed to die in two hits.

It's also what would bring guardians into popularity, as right now a large portion of them fight themselves fairly ignored/forgotten about as strikers rush ahead. Two-hp strikers would utilise guardians to far greater effect.

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 14:06
#33
Severage's picture
Severage
...

I feel that UVs will be less likely to be removed because Punch is a great crown sink.

Personally, though I play with little to no UVs, I'll take my chances in LD with rich players who have sunk many crowns into the game over average P2Pers that have double my HP.

While on the surface UVs/Heart Pendants are similar, UVs are much healthier for the economy than Heart Trinks will ever be.

I also agree with Brady that with their Slots freed up from Pentas, people will be able to better counter UVs, though of course UVs will be superior in their versatility, as they should be.

~Sev

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 15:41
#34
Darkshaodw's picture
Darkshaodw
Now if only clones would

Now if only clones would clone up and respond..

Wed, 12/05/2012 - 23:31
#35
Bacon-Strip's picture
Bacon-Strip
Gunner will reign

Gunner will reign supreme.
Say hello to my max damage, max ASI polaris if this ever went through. 3 hit kills everywhere. 5 hits for guards and recons.
Or my alchemer swap spam. 6-7 hits at most, WITHOUT status to kill.

%health increase will be a better solution. Buffs all classes, nothing gets thrown out of whack, battles last longer than 2 hits.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 09:00
#36
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
People do this already and we

People do this already and we cope.

Main difference in my eyes is that we won't get max:max polaris heart strikers runnin' around on the verge of impossible to catch/kill while they do it. Gunners already reign supreme in my mind, as the most difficult to catch, the ones capable of hitting anyone and everyone without discrimination and thanks to Pentas, the ability to seemingly just last forever while they do it. And when they whip out their polaris it just becomes a troll match. Remove pentas, kill them in two hits? Only need another gunner or decent striker.
Recon does it? Send in the skilled strikers or an assassin.

I do understand what you're sayin', don't get me wrong I'm not just dismissing you, but people already use max:max polaris and it either kills strikers or it doesn't. Letting them die in half the time won't change much; the bad strikers will get caught and killed regardless, the good ones will survive/leave.

Although I have stated already that I'm uncecrtain how a full class hp buff would go down, if everyone got equivelant buffs (and thusly not meaning strikers have the same hp as recons/guards) but I also reckon this would make killing guardians a joyless task for anyone but strikers.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 10:33
#37
Severage's picture
Severage
@Bacon:

And the difference between what you're saying and what happens now?

A good striker can get a mere 2 hits on a Gunner by the time they get shot in the face by an Umbra/Volt driver 6 times. Without the gunner's pentas, that's all it will take.

Alternatively, OOO could change weapons in T3 to not do obscene amounts of damage.....

~Sev

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 22:20
#38
Bacon-Strip's picture
Bacon-Strip
As a gunner I use either 1

As a gunner I use either 1 penta or no pentas. That's the advantage. What kind of gunner needs 2 pentas? Gunners shouldn't be getting hit.

Good gunners will not suffer a blow, while good, everything else, will.
Your proposed "solution" will just breed a whole new problem.

Anyways, I'm done with this. No matter what I say you won't realize how this affects everything. I've played well over 5000 lockdown games over more than a year of playing lockdown, and you just started playing? I've played before REAL use heart trinkets, the advent of guilds like Finesse spamming love puppies to have unfair advantages, and today's era of everyone has access to heart trinkets.

Take a guess of which is the most balanced.
Then again, obviously you know much more about how the lockdown metagame has changed over the months, so who am I to talk.

Thu, 12/06/2012 - 23:21
#39
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
I "just started playing"?

I "just started playing"? Can I ask how you figured that one out? I've got thousands of games under my belt, too. Don't make wild assumptions based on nothing just because you don't like me or my suggestion. Don't bother walking into a debate if you're going to spray elitist attitudes at people with absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Be open-minded and don't assume you know more or are better than everyone involved. If you can't muster that, then you're not likely to get much respect from anything regarding anything you have to say. Especially when it's coming out as paper-thin as you're presenting it.

Striker gunners do use heart trinkies. Just because you don't, doesn't mean that others don't either. And you're right; a good gunner won't get hit much. However, heart pendants mean that if a good striker uses them, then they're basically invincible; they rarely get hit, but even when they do, they just laugh it off and keep going.
My proposed "solution" won't breed a problem that isn't already in the game. There are gunners who spam polaris as recon/guard/striker, and there are good gunners who both do and do not use hearts. Removing hearts does nothing to OP any of them. It makes it harder for strikers to deal with them, but it also denies any good gunners for utilising them as well. That sounds like balance, to me.

And I do realise how this affects everything. I also realise there are drawbacks, but there are few things one could do to balance/change a game that won't have side-effects. However, the game is very clearly and obviously (don't even try and argue that one) not balanced right now. As someone who's played a lot, you should be aware of this. If you honestly think the game is balanced currently, then you're just being blinded by metagame and not playing it from the perspective of anyone else who actually plays the game, such as the casual gamer.

And I'm well aware that people using True Love was far less fair than everyone having access to it. I'm not suggesting to ban Pentas but allow True Loves like it was before; I'm suggesting to remove them all. Equally balanced as to giving everyone access to them. More, arguably, since no one having access to them puts everyone on the same level, whereas allowing potential access restricts players to either having hearts and no maxed stats, or requiring UVs to get both, and punishing everyone below that price range. That is quite literally the exact same as a guild spamming True Loves and leaving everyone else to have no Hearts at all, as far as "balance" goes.

If you're "done with this" debate already, and that's your closing statement, then what can I say? You've not really put your heart into it, have you? Feel free to come back when you have something useful to add~

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 10:47
#40
Severage's picture
Severage
...

I've played well over 5000 lockdown games over more than a year of playing lockdown, and you just started playing?

I'm glad that you think your Sherlock Holmes deduction skills are supreme, unfortunately for you I've played since plenty of time before BN came out - I've certainly played LD since its release. There's no reason to make a holier-than-thou debate.

As much as gunners "shouldn't suffer a blow", practically all of them die at one point or another. Pentas make it easier for them to die. I've seen gunners who use two pentas.

Also, even Tennis said himself, that hammers are one of his least favorite weapons as a Gunner. Without pentas, I'd venture to say hammers would be an excellent solution to killing gunners. Not all gunners "don't get hit". In fact, very few don't.

See...this is why I don't get along with most of you LD "pros"...you think because you posted on this topic we should all bow down to whatever arguments you made, and if we don't, call us newbs, etc.

You gave me an idea though - I can ask BigHondo about this in-game. He's a great gunner, see what he thinks about it.

~Sev

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 13:51
#41
Infidelslayer's picture
Infidelslayer
....

+1 to this thread.

I mean if they can remove (and bring back) invincibility frame why not remove heart pendants,status UVs (or other game changing stuffs) from LD?

So curious.....

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 15:20
#42
Canozo's picture
Canozo
--

Like Bacon said, Gunners would destroy everything and everyone. Full Shadowsun + 1Dmg trinket + 1 ASI Trinket. 3 Hits and a striker is dead. Polaris "spam" on Guardians and Recons.

Good Game.

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 17:07
#43
Darkshaodw's picture
Darkshaodw
@canozo I'm guessing you

@canozo

I'm guessing you didn't read other people's responses.......

Fri, 12/07/2012 - 17:31
#44
Forum-Brady's picture
Forum-Brady
Aye, have to say we kinda

Aye, have to say we kinda covered that. Gunners won't be any stronger than they currently are at all, and a large number of heart-trinky gunners will be made weaker. The only difference at all is that strikers who like to run off solo will have a harder time dealing with gunners.

But then, if you actually pay attention to my OP at all, you'll see that this entire exercise is an attempt to discourage strikers from stupidly running off solo to deal with problems without their team. A striker with backup from someone else will be able to deal with a gunner just fine, just the same as they currently do.

Honestly, the only reason this notion of "Gunners will rule the world" is arising is the exact same thing I said in this post. Feel free to comment if you have trouble dealing with a non-heart pendant using gunner, while you have backup, but honestly, you're ignoring the entire point if you're just talking about how hard it would be for you to solo [whatever] as a non-heart striker when the entire concept of this is to expressly encourage not soloing stuff.

Not to mention the fact that you can't just pick out one pro gunner and show him as a shining example of how he would rule the world, blah, blah, blah, when a huge portion of the LD playerbase aren't him. Try to consider it from the PoV as the majority of players who just play for fun and who are not godmode amazing gunners who can solo entire teams without hearts and get 20k+ damage with their Sentenza alone. It is simply an awful, stupid, pointless, short-sighted and selfish method to gauge "what is equal/balanced".

/sigh

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 10:13
#45
Darkshaodw's picture
Darkshaodw
On the bright side, at least

On the bright side, at least some clones commented

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 11:57
#46
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
Hmm...

Lockdown is all about having your own gear into action... It will never be balanced for that single reason and why I don't like LD

On the other hand my suggestion:

I would love to see a LD where everyone is on the same level... Like you have X amount of weapons and X amount of armor/helm that everyone can chose from. No UV (or everyone with same UV), No trinket.

And to have the weapons/armor be randomized so you don't always end up with the same stuff. It would bring a great variety of LD fight (I think)

Of course I think it should be another gamestyle and that this does not get implemented for guild LD but only random team LD.

But then again I don't play much LD so IDK how LD player would like/love/hate/despite it... :S

Your thoughts?

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 12:13
#47
Severage's picture
Severage
@Shamanala:

The problem with disabling UVs is that you discourage a great crownsink. A really great crown sink. The problem with saying "everyone with the same UVs" is that you'd never find a LD game.

Sorting people by how much gear they have is a bad idea...finding a LD game would take an eternity.

No trinkets at all would discourage a fairly decent CE sink. If you just disable heart trinkets, people will be encouraged to craft a bunch of other trinkets.

Using random weapon and armor sets? That might actually be fun, except if one team randomly spawned with Skelly Suits and Sudaruskas and the other randomly spawned with Ancient Plate and Divine Avengers, you know who'd win.

~Sev

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 12:37
#48
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
Just a detail I forgot...

Using random weapon and armor sets? That might actually be fun, except if one team randomly spawned with Skelly Suits and Sudaruskas and the other randomly spawned with Ancient Plate and Divine Avengers, you know who'd win.

The items randomized would be the same for both team

But I get why it wouldn't be implemented. And I never thought it would, I simply would enjoy it more. But that's my opinion so... ^ ^

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 18:31
#49
Severage's picture
Severage
@Shamanala:

Oh I see, not different spawns per person, everyone uses the same random gear.

In all honesty that sounds very fun. You should make a thread on that before I steal it. I'm sure someone will point out something bad in it - but I can't think of anything...

Also, can you use quotes or the <,em> tags when you're referencing what someone else said please? Not to be critical - just hard to tell if you're typing it or quoting someone.

~Sev

Sat, 12/08/2012 - 18:40
#50
Shamanalah's picture
Shamanalah
@ Sev

Ahhh, I don't understand the code in this forum. I will in future post

And I don't mind you make a Thread about it. I will be busy the next couple days so I won't have time to do it.

Have to choose between pre-made random loadout or choosing items by items and the time they spend in the battle hall to choose from the loadouts / items.

If you don't want to do it I will make a Thread about it but not before Tuesday.

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