Firstly, When I say Story Origins, I do not mean the game's story itself, but the characters which you play.
Players should have the choice: Do they help the spiral order, Or do the oppose it?
Are they a knight, a stranger, or a gremlin?
And of the Morai? We don't know.
The reason this is under suggestion is because I'd like to see the other half of the story.
I don't think the spiral order would like it if gremlins started spawning in haven. Or Morai, for that matter.
You misunderstand the point.
Although yes the game is called spiral knights, it doesn't have enough variety.
And Klipik, What I meant is a suggestion that you can play as a gremlin which is friendly towards knights and is willing to help them get to their homeplanet, or you could play as an outcast knight/gremlin Who oppose the Spiral Order. (Project R anyone?)
*Ahem* Needless to say, I want to know more about the morai and their homeplanet, which I'm assuming the knights took over, And I also want to see a mission progression for the bad side.
Again, it would not make sense to have multiple playable races in the game. It would go against the main plot entirely, as the whole purpose of the game is for the Spiral Order to return to their home world. Allowing you to use other races that do not share this purpose would pretty much mean you would be completely independent from the story of this game, and would have no reason to go into the clockworks. Even if you played as a friendly gremlin, you would not be a part of the Spiral order. Meaning that you would not be allowed to partake in the missions system, since it is all taken care of by the Spiral HQ.
Different races would also require unique abilities to justify the addition of it, and SK is not meant to be a class based game. A single character should be able to obtain everything in-game, given they invest enough time and money into it.
I hate variety.
The reason this is under suggestion is because I'd like to see the other half of the story.
So... what are you suggesting?
what "other half of the story"?
there is no other half; the Morai didn't follow us till here, the gremlins are associated with all the other monsters of the clockworks, how would that go?
the knights are escaping from a war, they don't want to fight each other, the only grmlins that could aid us are the ones of Emberlight that are specifically running from violence, and strangers? what would you do as a stranger? trade? it's the only think you could do, and then why are you playing this game? for trading?
The vague lore of the game indicates that the Knights and Morai were enemies with each other. For example; the description of the Iron promo sets says that those armors were used by knights who assassinated high profile Morai. The Knights also fled their home planet because of the Morai. So the Morai are out of the question.
The Gremlins on the other hand wouldn't fit either since they are just another type of monster in the clockworks. What if I wanted to play as a Lumber? Or an Apocrean Harvester? What then? It would hardly be fair on the other monsters.
Actually, Neon, Gremlins are one of the only monster types that consists of an entire family of sentient beings (along with fiends). So you can't compare them to the other monsters in that way. The best way to counter your post would be just to say that fiends are playable as well (which, by the way, I do not want).
@ Hexzyle
I may be using the word wrong, but by sentient I mean they are capable of critical thinking, putting them on par of intellect with humans.
-Beasts are beats. They are no more sentient then current day wolves.
-Slimes are similar to beasts, but yes they do have above average intellect. However, it seems to me that the only true sentient creatures in the Slime family is of the royal line (Royal Jelly, Ice Queen, Nick the Impostocube).
-Undead are mindless zombies (duh). They have no intellect. However, I do concede that Phantoms, Almirian Crusaders, and both Almirian Guards are sentient (possibly kats as well, but I doubt it).
-As I said in my original post, fiends are indeed sentient.
-Constructs probably have an advanced AI system that lets them perform their duties with extreme skill and precision, but they are only machines. Aside from the rare occurrence (Collector, possibly Tortodrone), they are not advanced enough to make their own decisions or deviate from their programming.
-Yes, Gremlins are sentient.
If every monster in the family is not sentient, then I do not count the family sentient.
Sentience means to be able to feel or perceive things.
@Beasts
"In the philosophy of animal rights, sentience implies the ability to experience pleasure and pain. Animal-rights advocates typically argue that any sentient being is entitled, at a minimum, to the right not to be subjected to unnecessary suffering"
@Slimes
Just because we don't have a common language, doesn't mean that slimes are less intelligent than humans. Are you trying to compare intelligence to technological advancement? Because they aren't necessarily the same thing. "Intelligence has been defined in many different ways including logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, having emotional knowledge, retaining, planning, and problem solving."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence
@Undead
You cannot prove that the Zombie's seat of consciousness does not lie elsewhere. In fact, this seems to be the case: some external force is driving them, or at the very least, causing them to Arise!
Many Kats are sentient (others seem to be just bloodthirsty/mindless monsters, much like predatory animals, I guess) as evident in Moorcroft Manor
@Constructs
It's hinted in a few of the mission briefings that Constructs are actually more intelligent than what they appear to be. It's funny that you say "deviate from their programming" when you don't actually know what their programming originally was. (it's not even confirmed if it were the Gremlins who designed them) It's very possible that they may have had another purpose, but siding with the Gremlins is, according to them, their best hope for survival. "An intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions which maximize its chances of success".
(Don't skip to the start of the video, the timestamp is important)
(Part 2)
"If every monster in the family is not sentient, then I do not count the family sentient."
Sorry, but that logic doesn't always work. Just because half of mammals don't have fur, doesn't mean that no mammals have fur. (although this isn't the best example) Family is merely a group of shared characteristics. It's an arbitrary association between creatures. When we're talking about actual properties of a species, we should consider each species on a case-by-case basis, rather than lumping them all together.
How about I change from the word sentient, and move to critical thinking
~Beasts~
As I said before, I'm talking about having the intellect to be able to think logically and make critical decisions about solving a problem. Saying beasts have this is like saying all animals on earth have this as well.
Your quote about animal rights is off topic, as I am not talking about sensations.
~Slimes~
I guess slimes do exhibit the characteristics of an intelligent being. They are obviously less advanced than any other civilization on Cradle, but you have changed my opinion on them. However, even if I am personally convinced, I still think that the line is thin enough for there to be discussions on their intelligence, and to not have a conclusive answer without further evidence (which we will probably not get since I doubt OOO cares enough to expand on the lore of slimes).
~Undead~
Even if the undead are being controlled controlled by some outside intelligent being, the undead themselves are not intelligent. Calling them so would force you to extend the meaning to other areas.
Here's an example; some time in the distant (or not so much so) future, humans will be able to effortlessly control robotic appendages and such by sending brain waves. These appendages are moved directly by the will of an intelligent being, and an advanced AI is installed to assist in moving the appendage in complex ways by mimicking human thought patterns. Can you call this appendage intelligent on the level of a human?
~Constructs~
I based my opinions of constructs off the assumptions that they were all created by gremlins, but if this is not true then my view is flawed. If they were indeed created by gremlins, then it would be obvious that their purpose was to destroy anything that is deemed an enemy of the gremlins; namely the Spiral Order. That would then mean that there would be no evidence that they are contradicting their programming.
If constructs were not built by gremlins, then yes you could speculate all you want about their base programming and how much intelligence they actually have. And you would probably be right, since they would then probably be built by whoever it was that built the clockworks. Whoever did do that must have had advanced enough technology that it would be a simple matter to give a machine a high level of intelligence to the point that there would be no clear difference from it and a human. But the main point being that you would be speculating. There is no hard proof that constructs are indeed intelligent, it's only hinted and assumed.
P.S.
After watching that video you linked for the construct's bid for intelligence, I now want to play that game with a burning passion :x
EDIT:
When I said that I don't count the family as sentient, I meant that I would not count them as a playable race.
You could think of it as not stereotyping the families; just because some of them are indeed intelligent, that does not mean all of them are (probably a bad way of wording it, but oh well). I could also turn your example back around on you; Just because some mammals have fur, that does not mean every mammal has fur.
I consider those odd cases where a generally non-intelligent monster family to have an example of intelligence to only be an anomaly that is not necessarily present in every member of the species (an example being the spookats in Moorcraft. I do admit that they are intelligent, but I doubt that every member of the Kat family could be considered as such).
As I said before, I'm talking about having the intellect to be able to think logically and make critical decisions about solving a problem.
I don't really understand what we're trying to argue here.
Yes, animals lack the intelligence to understand how to "pass on their races amassed knowledge". They don't exactly learn to do anything if not to survive.
But they do problem solve, (albeit on a limited scale) even if only to survive.
So I agree, their "intelligence" doesn't really come close to human intelligence.
They are obviously less advanced than any other civilization on Cradle
Iunno. Chromas can be pretty dumb.
Even if the undead are being controlled controlled by some outside intelligent being, the undead themselves are not intelligent.
You mean "the dead themselves are not intelligent". The body is dead, and does nothing.
Undead are comprised of both the body of the dead and the drive of something else. Be it a parasite or a spiritual force, "Undead" combines both to make one entity. The drive has to be considered when determining intelligence. And since we have not located nor identified the source of this "drive", we cannot deduct whether what directs the Undead.
Compare the Tyranids, the hivemind of which is an immaterial being, the Zerg, the Overlord of which controls all telepathically, or Humans, the perceptions of which is all interconnected to construct the known universe.
There is no hard proof that constructs are indeed intelligent, it's only hinted and assumed.
Agreed.
After watching that video you linked for the construct's bid for intelligence, I now want to play that game with a burning passion :x
Virtue's Last Reward is more of a Visual Novel with puzzles added in. You could probably get the same enjoyment that you could from playing the game by watching the YouTube walkthrough (I think this is the entire game here) unless you wanted to play the puzzles. (not saying that you shouldn't get the game though)
I loved it, took me just under 40 hours to complete. (although I watched many of the scenes all the way through, allowing the person's audio clips to play fully before going to the next line) It introduced me to Quantum Physics, the Multi-Universe theory, Time-Travel, the Morphic Field, etc. The amount of twists in it makes it pretty awesome too. By the way, it's the (standalone, yet it's a) sequel to 999 (9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors) if you wanted to play that one first.
I consider those odd cases where a generally non-intelligent monster family to have an example of intelligence to only be an anomaly that is not necessarily present in every member of the species (an example being the spookats in Moorcraft. I do admit that they are intelligent, but I doubt that every member of the Kat family could be considered as such).
Okay, let me try a better example. Humans are intelligent, yet we are mammals. No other mammals share our level of intelligence, so could we stereotype against mammals by saying that "a property of mammals is that they are unintelligent?". No, because that's not the definition nor a property of mammal. It is merely a generalization.
Families of monsters are assembled so firstly and formostly because of their damage resistances and weaknesses: they are made up of the same materials and have similar body structures. The same could be said for animal families: All fish have scales, all mammals are warm blooded, all Arachnids have eight legs, all Invertebrates don't have spines. But behaviours of each family can vary vastly, and we're talking about species of animals that "evolved" (if you roll that way) on the same planet. Monsters on Cradle can vary vastly from eachother as they are alien in origin, families are very rough groupings at best.
Humans, the perceptions of which is all interconnected to construct the known universe.
This is a philosophical statement (and one a slight bit above my understanding) that can be debated to a certain degree about non-absolute perceptions. I'm trying to classify the monsters of cradle with a definable measurement of intelligence. Not sure if they go together, since I'm not the most philosophical and educated individual (I just like to write in a way that makes me sound smart).
About the game, I actually really like Visual Novels so that game would be perfect for me. And doing the puzzles would be fun, since I like to exercise my brain (I don't want to just see them being completed in a video, I want to actually do them myself without any hints of cheats). I'll look into that 999 game too, to see if it's up my alley. Although I don't have a PSVita...
I said that I was trying to not stereotype them. Just because some of the monsters are intelligent, I can't assume they all are. Just because most of them are not, I can't say none of them are. I'm just saying that not every member of that monster family is intelligent, so you can't just assume that they all are. I even acknowledged that there were instances in each family where there were intelligent individuals. But, the thing is that the OP was trying to give us more playable races, and Neon was saying that all monsters are the same. I was trying to say that not all monsters can be put on the same level, and that some of them can be considered actual races that you could play, but not all. It wouldn't be logical for a game like this to allow playing a character that can't think for itself. That's why I was grouping all the monsters of a particular family together, because I didn't want to single out every single monster type as a playable or non-playable character.
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Wow, this train is so far off track that it's running perpendicular to it's original course...
Woah, I completely derailed the threads original purpose. From a common suggestion to Quantum Physics and the Multiverse theory?
Anyway, in my opinion, multiple races are a bad idea for the path this game has chosen. You are not the first and will not be the last to suggest this.
I'll look into that 999 game too, to see if it's up my alley. Although I don't have a PSVita...
999 is on NDS, ZE:VLR is also on 3DS.
and Neon was saying that all monsters are the same.
Ah, okay. I completely skimmed over that.
I just saw a conversation I wanted to start (I enjoy explaining stuff rather than myth) and baited you into it for my own personal enjoyment. :P
Looks like a good idea,though it'll take alot of works since there are LACKS of Developers.
@ Hexzyle
LOL, that link you had to 999 was so perverted. I hope it was meant to be that way, or it opens the door to soooo many bad jokes on the game (haven't played the game yet, so I have no idea what context that line was said in).
I'm assuming (I haven't played much of 999) it was something along the lines of actually freezing a piece of meat. Akane (Whodafuq is "June"?) and Junpei are in a freezer after all.
Something similar happens in ZE:VLR where you have to put a small plant into a cryo-pod to freeze it so you can smash it and retrieve a Memory Card embedded in its trunk.
There are quite a lot of sexual references implied but not outright stated in the games :P
You have to open a safe and Tenmyouji speculates there might be videos inside.
Sigma is obsessed with swimsuits.
And the above link where Cockney Model G-OLM makes quite a few references to what he calls "birds".
The whole point of the game is that the Spiral Order is trying to get back home. Hell the game is called Spiral Knights. For you to be able to play as anything besides a spiral knight would not make sense.
But yea, we do need to know a bit more about our home world.