Spiral Knights - Community created gear class lists: discussion

Community created gear class lists: discussion

112 replies [Last post]

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 14:34

Krakob

(Initial post start)

Hey! You! Saw that tier list Latisan-Sklay made? Its forum thread is available here. If you haven't read it already, I suggest you do.

Anyway, I think it could be a good idea that the community makes tier lists based on votes. That way, we could get a rather generally agreed upon tier list for items, which would be rather interesting to see, as well as useful for those seeking help on choosing gear.

There are some things which would require agreements, though. How would the voting work, how many tiers would there be, etc.

Personally, I think that voting should be restricted to players with at least five 5* items in the category (for example, five 5* guns if voting on a gun list) (not counting easy grabs, i.e. FoV, WRH, and DR) and something like 200 hours of SK played. While that might seem rather restrictive and turning it into something that's not made by all of the community, I think it's important that the people who participate really know what they're talking about.

As for the tiers, I think it would be suitable with five tiers. To not make people confuse them with the tiers in the Clockworks, it would be preferable to use letters instead of numbers. A, B, C, D, and so on.
Five tiers would in my opinion be suitable so that it's A, B, C, D, E.
C would be what one considers balanced without comparing to other items. B would be what one considers overpowered in comparison to C, and A would be what one considers overpowered in comparison to B. As for D and E, they would be like B and A but in reverse, of course, so that D is what one considers underpowered in comparison to C and so on.

To calculate the tier for something, one would take the average numeric value of all votes (E = 1, D = 2, C = 3...), round it, and turn it back into an alphabetic value.

Pardon if anything's unclear in this post, it's getting late here and I need to go to bed.

Thoughts? Opinions? Potatoes? Better ideas?

(Initial post ends)

Conclusions:

Table of contents:

Terminology:

Bad, Poor, Okay, Good, Great
Class A, Class B, and so on.

Class is agreed upon but one could also also name the classes, or keep names away from the classes entirely.

Amount of classes:

Link to initial post about said vote

Pro S class votes (3):

Anti S class votes (4):

If you believe that you have voted but your vote is not here, it's either beceause I have yet to update the list or because you did not make your vote clear enough. To be sure, please make it very clear by making a post in which you say something like "I vote for/against an S class."

Limitations on voters:

Fehzor suggests at least twenty 5* items overall.
Shadowstarkirby makes his proposal here.
Krakob's thoughts.

The questions that remain:

Exactly how many items should be required to vote?
Should one be allowed to vote based on an overall item count or the amount of items one possesses in the relevant item type?
Which items should count? 5* items only? 4* and 5* items?
Should the other limitation be the amount of played time or the amount of prestige one has and either way, how much time/prestige?

Multiple categories:

Midnight-Dj's post.
Military-Lupin's post.

What to take into consideration when voting:

Raw power
Utility

What not to take into consideration when voting:

Lockdown

The Lockdown metagame is very different when compared to the Clockworks metagame. Therefore, it would be wise to make separate lists for Lockdown and PvE. A Lockdown class list might be done later but not for now.

Ease of access

How one acquires a weapon is never a matter of opinion. Therefore, it should be left out of voting and each entry in the list should specify how one acquires the item in question. Additionally, acquisition methods are not a part the actual items.

Inclusion of sub-5* items

Winmillion
Heavy Deconstructor
Faust

The Faust does have a 5* variant. However, the 4* Faust has a shorter charge time as well as weaker self curse, making it a viable alternative to Gran Faust in some cases.

These weapons will be included in the list.

There are also armours and shields that are somewhat viable as well, including:

Swiftstrike Buckler
Scarlet Shield
Cyclops Cap
Fencing Jacket

So far, only Swiftstrike seems to be one to be included in the list.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 15:06

Dibsville

I think it should already be regarded that Acheron and Blitz Needle should be S-tier. If we're going on the basic tier list rules, these two weapons outclass almost all other weapons, so there is no reason to put them in anything below S-tier, or at the very least they should be #1 on the A-tier list.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 15:16

Midnight-Dj

@OP

Here is how I would class a weapon, the weapon must have a good score in all three areas of my judgement to be a good weapon.

Weapon utility:
How many clock work levels is this weapon viable to? Of course, leviathan blade and valiance will get a very good score in this area, probably an A or a B in perspective, weapons like Acheron and DA will get a C, while final flourish and rocket hammer get D or E (due to pure piercing/elemental damage), if you catch my drift.

Enemy destroying capability (EDC):
In this area I will judge how many hit does it take for a weapon to take down an enemy(just one), all stats here should be taken from a monster that is neutral to the weapon's damage (acheron tested against construct, DA against fiends). Weapons like the swords will get A or B here, while guns and bombs get C or D.

Crowd control capability (CCC):
In this area, I will judge how much damage and demobilization can this weapon do to two or more enemy, bombs will no doubt get high score here, while sword like DA and GF get D or C, while brandish get B or C. Guns like Polaris will get good score as well.

My ideal score for weapons (just some examples):
Leviathan blade
-Utility: A
-E.D.C.: B
-C.C.C.: C

Acheron
-Utility: B
-E.D.C.: A
-C.C.C.: B

Shivermist buster
-Utility: C
-E.D.C.: E
-C.C.C.: A

Polaris:
-Utility: C
-E.D.C.: B
-C.C.C.:B

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 16:10

Bopp

just avoid "tier"

I'm glad that you've switched from "1, 2, 3" to "A, B, C, D, E". But I'd like us to avoid use of the word "tier" altogether. How about "Bad, Poor, Okay, Good, Great"?

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 16:39

Military-Lupin

Classes

I agree with Bopp here. But I was thinking along the lines of classes. So Class A weapons, Class B weapons, etc. That way you can have a Tier 3, Class B weapon for example.

I would agree Midnight-Dj as well on that sort of ranking system.

So using the Leviathan Blades Utility, EDC, and CCC scores as the example was given, the total rank would then be...

(Utility * EDC * CCC) / 3

(A * B * C) / 3

where A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, D = 4, E = 5

(1 * 2 * 3) / 3 = 6 / 3 = 2 = B

Therefore a Leviathan Blade would be a Class B weapon.

EDIT: I also forgot, there needs to be a fourth score as well. Availability. Some swords are harder to get then others, so this needs to be taken into account.

So for the Leviathan Blade:
Utility: A
EDC: B
CCC: C
Availability: A (Due to the recipe being given to you vie missions)

So the new score would result in...

(Utility * EDC * CCC * Availability) / 4
(1 * 2 * 3 * 1) / 4 = 6 / 4 = 1.5 = 2 (rounded using standard rounding rules) = B

So the Leviathan blade is still Class B, but you could say it is Class B, but the absolute score was 1.5

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 20:20

Shadowstarkirby

Sounds fun

I agree that voting should be restricted so that we don't have silly people being blatantly foolish when blurting out opinions and causing flame wars, let's keep it professional. Currently standing 3.7k hours and I have all swords and guns (minus reskins).

I'll do a simple list for swords and guns for PvE.

There should definitely be S tier for godly weapons that perform exceptionally in countless situations, next to being broken: Acheron and Blitz Needle.

A tier should be for amazing weapons that are the top of their class and perform well in many situations; staples to the common Spiral Knight loadout: Combuster, Voltedge, and Obsidian Edge for swords. Nova Driver, Storm Driver, and Umbra Driver for guns.

B tier should be for great weapons that perform well in many situations akin to A tier weapons, but are slightly below their brethren in power: Glacius, Divine Avenger, Gran Faust*, Warmaster Rocket Hammer, Final Flourish, and Barbarous Thorn Blade for swords. Magma Driver, Hail Driver, Obsidian Carbine, and Polaris for guns.

C tier should be for okay weapons that perform well in the correct situation, but are not nearly as useful as the above weapons in A and B tier; particularly being underpowered or slightly niche: Leviathan Blade, Fang of Vog, Sudaruska, and Dread Venom Striker for swords. Argent Peacemaker, Sentenza, Biohazard, Neutralizer, Supernova, and Valiance for guns.

D tier should be for bad weapons that have limited or overshadowed use when put up against their brethren: Wild Hunting Blade, Fearless Rigadoon, and Triglav for swords. Plague Needle*, Volcanic Pepperbox*, and Callahan for guns.

E tier should be for pointless weapons that have no reason to be used when put up against their brethren: Furious Flamberge, Winmillion, and Cold Iron Vanquisher for swords. Iron Slug for guns.

The *'d weapons are ones I had trouble ranking. Gran Faust I felt should be in C tier because the charge is useless and Acheron, as well as Obsidian Carbine put it to shame in destruction. It's only saving grace is it's knockback. Plague Needle and Volcanic Pepperbox, I really can't say much on them because I don't have them heated and can barely remember how they performed.

Edit: Sorry I didn't really take account of the more in-depth ranking when I did this, I mostly wanted to throw out more of a foundation to the weapons ranking, if that's all right. Also what's wrong with calling them "tier"? It's something everyone familiar with gaming should know well.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 17:18

Bopp

what's wrong

Also what's wrong with calling them "tier"? It's something everyone familiar with gaming should know well.

The point of making a guide like this is to educate novice players. So the terminology has to work for novices. These players will confuse "tier" (A, B, C, D, E) with the official "tiers" (1, 2, 3) in the game. Don't expect them to figure it all out. Just consider how many "how to I get a forum avatar?" threads there are.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 17:43

Fehzor

Wouldn't this largely bring into it all the issues with democracy? And isn't 5 5* items a bit low? I'd go at least 20, if not 40. 40 dictates that they have all of the items in about one set; There are around 15-20 each of guns/bombs/swords. The rest would be extra for grounds of comparison? But maybe that's over the top? I don't know what "normal" players who should be able to vote have.

----On the name----

Rank A
Rank B
Rank C

Etcetera. Or just "Gear Ranking List", as this wouldn't produce clear sets of rank given its democratic nature? I.E. Acheron would have an average of whatever the highest number alloted is, if we did a 3 point system its average vote would be 3. Middling items would have a clear place as well- 2.3 or 2.31 such that all gear would be put into groups, and all gear would be greater or lesser than some other gear.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 17:46

Shadowstarkirby

Hmm, yeah

Maybe "rank" would be better. But who knows...they might confuse that with their Knight ranking then, lol.

I also had a problem with the amount of 5* weapons that you'd need, but I think 20 seems a bit much, I'd say you need at least 10 or 15 5* weapons of each type to have a say in them. It's not ridiculous, but it's enough to say that you know a large variety of weapons.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 17:54

Military-Lupin

May I?

May I point out my earlier post? What are peoples opinions on a 'classes' and the way the rank is created? To understand the full scope of my post, read Midnight-Dj's as well.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 19:36

#10

Bopp

"class" is good

"Rank" will confuse new players, just as "tier" will. "Class" is fine. The scheme that I proposed in post #3 is also fine.

Hopefully we can get past the terminology and on to the substance of the lists soon.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 20:55

#11

Shadowstarkirby

I'm indifferent

It doesn't really matter that much, tier, rank, class, it's all the same thing in this case? If a newcomer can't differentiate sectors in the game vs. sections of a ranking list, I think there's a bigger problem on their hands than just being confused. But I understand and digress though, whatever will make them understand completely will be fine.

Personally, I feel how we're trying to rank a weapon's usefulness numerically is overly complicated...at least in this method. It just seems like a lot of scribble to me, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if newcomers are unable to understand how the ranking is set either this way (averages, oh no).

@Military-Lupin Sorry that I'm unable to speak much for your post specifically, but I have to disagree with adding Availability as a factor. Whether you can get it easily or not doesn't really matter, it's the weapon's mechanics, damage, and utility that does. At the end of the day you're not going to be concerned of how easily you got it, you'll be concerned at how well it performs.

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 21:28

#12

Military-Lupin

Point Takrn

@Shadowstarkirby I see where you are coming from in that regard, but for a new player who is looking for good weapons that are easy to get.. Shouldn't we oblige them and disclose that information for them? You could potentially figure out the class from those three main scores (Utility, EDC, CCC) and then as a 'on the side' show a Availability class for that weapon. So say a Leviathan Blade is Class B, and has an Availability of Easy (or something along those lines).

@Bopp while it will be beneficial to move onto actual content, without the terminology set first... Your a fish half out of water. Its a bit like writing a book without having any characters made. But yes, we can make content and assign terminology later. It just takes a bit more work.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 03:30

#13

Krakob

Updated OP to contain a summary of discussions. I'll update it as we go.

@Dibsville
Forcing things into specific classes would defeat the purpose of voting on it. I'm sure Blitz and Acheron will both score 140% of the Russian people's votes but it'll still have to happen.

@Fehzor
I think you might've misunderstood. I suggested five 5* items in the category so five 5* bombs if voting on bombs and such. Maybe it is a bit too little, though.

Terminology:
I think we're done with that. Using "class" is ideal and it can be accompanied by what Bopp said in post #3 so that a category in the finished list could, for example, say "Class B - good handguns"

Amount of classes:
How many should we have? I don't think anyone disputes 5, in which case we're done with that.

Sub-classes(?):
As Midnight-Dj and Military Lupin suggested. I think this is what we should discuss now.
Personally, I don't support this idea. It will make the vote calculations rather complicated and would probably just cause confusion. Instead, I think we agree on clear guidelines for what the classes should contain (for example, what Shadowstarkirby said) and should let voters decide on an overall score for every weapon.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 06:25

#14

Xephyris

I think bad, poor, good,

I think bad, poor, good, great, is a bit extreme, I mean the difference between usefulness of weapons isn't that major. I wouldn't call any sword 'bad' so much as 'not as good as a brandish'

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 06:39

#15

Bopp

arguably

Xephyris has a point. And arguably five classes is too many. Triaging items (dividing them into three classes) is usually much easier. The three classes could be called C, B, A or Good, Better, Best. This nomenclature is very common in product reviews, which is what we're basically doing.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:02

#16

Shadowstarkirby

Three is too little

In any class list, there are suppose to be multiple classes to narrow down whatever is being ranked to the bare bones. It can't be that simplified, because in that case, you'd just put Iron Slug, Winmillion, Cold Iron Vanquisher, and Furious Flamberge in "Good", and we all know very well that they aren't good weapons; they just aren't "not as good as a brandish" types of weapons, they're more like "no point in using them over the other choices" types of weapons; bad weapons.

At the very least we should have 4 classes, but I would strongly prefer if we stuck with 5 (though I think there should be 6, an S Class for broken weapons like Dibsville mentioned) because it's much more flexible; Great, Good, Okay, Poor, and Bad. This way, we'd properly class weapons in their strength when put up against one another; using ABC ranking, if a Glacius and Leviathan Blade are both put in Class B, that's wrong, but you can't put Glacius alongside a Combuster and Acheron in Class A...and you can't put Leviathan Blade in Class C alongside a Winmillion and Furious Flamberge.

@Military-Lupin I agree, if we could mention Availability alongside the ranked weapon that'd be especially helpful.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:01

#17

Krakob

Good points, everybody. I don't think it would be wise having an even amount of classes as there'd be no clear middle then. Either way, I'll let the debate carry on for now. I support having five classes due to what Shadowstarkirby said. I can't say I think an S class is a good idea, though. It'd just be a bit silly because honestly, I think the power of say, Acheron is a bit exaggerated. Combuster, for example, is considered worse but if you get to choose only one for all of the Clockworks, Combuster will probably serve you better due to the fire, which is highly versatile. Blitz has less competition but Plague and VP_B are still very powerful, just not as powerful when compared to Blitz.

@Availability
I really think this is a bad idea. If anything, we could add notes about in the finished list. The reason for that is that availability can be specified in a very simple manner and opinion is hardly relevant on availability. All weapons are acquired through regular crafting, upgrading of a boss token reward, crafted through free recipes (Cobalt items), acquired directly by purchasing with boss tokens, crafted with recipes bought with Krogmo coins, acquired from O:CH, crafted during an event, or acquired by opening a box.

Yes, that's a lot of ways but rather than having a vote for each weapon, it would be much simpler to list the method of acquisition along with the item in question. We could also vote on acquisition methods themselves.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:39

#18

Shadowstarkirby

@Krakob

It's quite the norm to have an S class in a list like this, cause there are weapons that are truly exceptional vs. others that would be in A rank. I agree that Acheron and Combuster's differences aren't that large, but they still stand to be ridiculous when put up against other brandishes (whereas if I change their positions in my list, I'd put Voltedge in A and Glacius in B), to the point where I believe they should be in a special class of there own, which makes it more fitting to say they're S Class weapons. I feel the same about Blitz too, it's very versatile, more so than it's brothers (even vs. Constructs and Jellies when compared to VPB?), but again I haven't given them much credit, especially VPB, because I don't have them at Lv 10. I only put them so low because they're too heavily overshadowed. I'm thinking VPB is better than I think, but I really can't tell you. In fact, I'm getting ahead of myself, we all haven't settled on the framework of the list yet.

On Availability, I agree that footnotes would work just fine. Would that be the "Ease of Access" bullet?

Another thing I want to add is that I believe that the "Usefulness In Lockdown" bullet should be another list in itself, so we could use two class lists; one for PvE and another for PvP.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:23

#19

Military-Lupin

More Ideas

@ Shadowstarkirby I agree with lockdown, but maybe on a different list? Some weapons may be good all round, whilst others will be better in lockdown. (don't quote me as I may be wrong not having played lockdown very much)

@Krakob I don't like the S Class either, but maybe it is necessary?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 16:21

#20

Krakob

I do get your point about an S class but I feel like it might be a bit excessive. Either way, it could work. Let's see what others think.

I think that settles the ease of access debate, yes. It's a matter of fact and not opinion so there's no real reason to vote about it.

Yes, Lockdown has a somewhat different meta. A different list is probably better.

Editing OP...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 17:49

#21

Military-Lupin

General Descriptions

@Krakob Yes, let us see others think.

Another thing I think should be discussed is the content of a general description of each weapon. Do we discuss each and every aspect of a weapon? Do we outline every single situation that such and such weapon excels compared to others?

Basically, how informative do we want this to be? I am thinking we should incorporate some of Bopp's sword guide, specifically the swing info. Wide, short; long, short; that sort of thing. We should help new players to know what style of sword it is as well as how good it is.

My opinion on my stated questions is: I think we should be highly informative. Give new players great information to work with.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 09:53

#22

Fehzor

If the purpose of this is entirely to help new players, couldn't we just give them a breakdown of the facts and call it a day?

First:
The game is mostly split into enemies that are weak to shadow, and enemies that aren't weak to shadow. Generally, focus on getting those damage types over piercing. Most common pairings of enemies are: Beast+Slime = Shadow; Undead+Fiend = Elemental/Piercing; Construct+Gremlin = Shadow; Slime+Construct = Shadow/Elemental;;; Ergo, bringing Elemental+Shadow damage will cover most situations for you.

Second:
Are you looking.... you should look towards:
---------------------------------------
To become a swordy... a shadow+elemental brandish, maybe the sealed sword line if you'd prefer.
For a general use sword... Leviathan line, cutter line, troika line
For a counter to grievers... Any flourish, rigadoon line works best for this purpose
To be a hybrid of some sort... This depends on what your other weapons and general strategy are; inquire further and test out 2* versions.

We don't really need a huge tier list/ranking/CLASSIFICATION OF WEAPONS for something like that, do we?

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 10:15

#23

Dibsville

Decided to make two mock lists, just to show how I'd rank things. Not much thought went into them, I just listed them off of my head instead of what might be necessarily true.

Swords
Guns

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 11:49

#24

Shadowstarkirby

Replies...

@Fehzor Yeah, Bopp's guide explains all the weapons well enough, but as you know many people don't read and make 3 brandish threads in the time span of 2 days. This could just be an easy look at it and go type of list for those who want to just grab the best of the best without the "hassle" of reading.

...besides, this is all just an activity the Arsenal community can do, it's not just for the newcomers, it's for the whole community. I don't just want to know how one person thinks, I want to know what everyone thinks. I also believe it's fun seeing how weapons are ranked against each other.

@Military-Lupin I think that giving pros and cons under a weapon would be a good idea, it'll give people the explanation on why the weapon is there if they want to ask.

Another thing I think we should do is give all weapons a number rank, so it's specified to the bare bones which is the absolute best and worst. So it could go down like:

S Class (assuming there is one):

1. Acheron

Pros:
+ Overpowers all families, only being negligibly outdone in damage vs Undead and Fiends by an elemental brandish and Final Flourish/Barbarous Thorn Blade.
+ Incredible crowd control with charge attack.
+ Incredible single target DPS.
+ Medium speed.

Cons:
- Moderate knockback
- Small normal attack arc.

A Class:

2. Combuster (still up for argument if this is above Acheron)
3. Voltedge
4. Obsidian Edge

B Class:

5. Glacius
6. Divine Avenger...

And so on. Yeah, most weapons are good in their own right, but we should really find out which comes on top of one another in the majority of situations.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 10:57

#25

Dahall

@everyone

While you guys sort out where weapons go, why don't you help me make the devs aware of this.If that suggestion is applied by OOO, I(or we if there is another 3D artist) can make weapons and armor which are to be tested and put into their rightful tiers by you beloved SK enthusiasts.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 12:18

#26

Shadowstarkirby

I have something completely different in mind

This may be too late in the game, but maybe instead of all of us making our own personal lists, we could do something like this:

Every week, Krakob, you could choose a weapon of each type (sword, gun, and bomb) which we could discuss to be placed on the class list for both PvE and PvP. For e.g, you could choose the topic of the week to be Final Flourish, Supernova, and Graviton Vortex. Everyone else then decides to discuss and vote on where the weapon should be placed on the class list for each weapon in both PVE and PvP based on [S], A, B, C, D, and E ranking. A poster states the class they want to assign the weapon to and a short explanation to why. At the end of the week, Krakob can tally up the votes so it can be assigned to a class and then from there, you can choose the next weapons for the following week. Once all weapons have been listed, we could move onto step two with number ranking.

This will take a while and a LOT more than this subforum will need to participate because we need a bunch of votes, but I think that this would be an interesting and involving way to make this. There needs to be a requirement though so we don't have spam posters and newcomers that just say silly things wrecking the list, so I'm thinking that we could incorporate a requirement of having at least 200 hours playtime and a picture of their arsenal; having 10 4*/5* weapons of a type will allow you to vote in that category...is that too excessive?

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 12:41

#27

Krakob

@Information
The idea was never to write a guide, it was to make a list. While it could be a good idea to incorporate some data into the final list, it's more of a guide if we do so too much. After all, the goal is to make a goal that showcases what the average veteran knight thinks of items.

@Fehzor
No, that's what Bopp's sword guide and the Swordmaster guide are for.

@Shadowstarkirby
Yes, that'll be easy to do. The voters don't need to take it into consideration, however. All you need to do is use the average you get from the votes without rounding it.

EDIT: looks like you ninja'd me so here's a response to your latest post.
While the idea could work, it would take way too long. More than a year if we would do all three weapon types and then we have not even touched armours and helmets. In the end, it would achieve roughly the same thing, anyway. By doing it this way, we'll get a format which we all agree upon (instead of me just coming up with a way to do it and steamroll the rest of you when it comes to deciding how many classes there'll be, etc.) and then the voting will go moderately fast.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 15:27

#28

Dibsville

Bombs?

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 16:13

#29

Xephyris

OK so I'm going to make a proposal...

And we can discuss if we like it or not, just to get a plan down.
I agree that we should probably have ranks A, B, C, D, E, and S. However within these ranks gear should still be ordered, similar to how the ssbb tiers work; each character has an exact number rank, but they are still sorted into tiers. I'm not saying we should order each weapon, because it would be extremely difficult to say which weapon is the ultimate 'best weapon'. Possibly we could have sub-ranks, so A1, A2, etc, and each sub-rank would contain a few weapons.

I can create a wiki page, and anyone who wants to help can. The page will have all the weapons ordered into whatever we decide to order them in, and I think it will be better than having the tiers posted on the forums. I can mostly take care of the wiki page myself, but help is appreciated :). I can start as early as today if I get replies. We can decide the ranks here on the forums, and when we have a semi-definitive list I will put it into the wiki.

Also, I think Shadowstarkirby's idea is good, except I think what we should do is someone post a list in a new thread, and people can suggest changes, until we get a list that we like.

So now we have to vote on a few things. Reply with your answers and/or thoughts.
- do we have ranks SABCDE or only SABCD?
- do we order them into sub-ranks(A1, A2, ETC) or do we just order them vaguely?
- do we do this for bombs, guns? Do we do it for armours too?
- should we include winmillion and other four-star gear, or should we make it only 5*.
- do we include ease of access in the judgment? Personally, I think it should be left out, as these are ranks based on the strength of a weapon. If we put in ease of access then cobalt set would probably be S rank.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 16:40

#30

Kwibble

After reading this...

@Xephyris The classes to be voted on actually seems to be SABCDE or ABCDE. Also, sub classes was already ruled out I believe. For what weapons etc, why not start with swords and then work your way into the other weapons, then proceed to armor? Sure it will take a while, but it will be fun as new members turned veterans that match the requirements can vote. Ease of access was already ruled out for being a factor for the rank. That is definite it seems. A little note about how to obtain that weapon will be given though.

As for winnillion etc.? I'll let you veterans decide :P

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 18:46

#31

Shadowstarkirby

Replies...

@Krakob Yeah, that's what I thought, I was thinking that we could do up to 3 of each type instead of one, but eh...let's stick with your method of voting. The additional info does sound more of a guide than a list, so that won't be necessary I suppose.

So from what it sounds like in my rough example, the idea of the list is going like this?:

Swords PvE:

S Class:

1. Acheron

A Class:

2. Combuster
3. Voltedge...

-Footnote information at the bottom of the list here-

...that's currently what I see in my head.

@Xephris That's more or less what I said, though condensed into one post, so yeah that's what I wanted to aim for. I believe having both a forum thread and wiki page would be nice. Though before we post another thread, we should definitely get the list's frame's down.

-I'm for SABCDE.
-The sub-ranking is basically the what I mentioned in post #24, but I believe we're going to rank them vaguely first before we actually rank them by number; categorization before numerization.
-We're doing all weapons and armor, but we're likely to start with swords first. Just so you know, swords, guns, and bombs won't be on a single list, they'll be in their own.
-We should do Winmillion and Irontech Destroyer because those are weapons that will plausibly be 5* someday, so they'll be ranked like the 5*s.
-It's been decided that Ease of Access won't be a factor in a weapons class placement, though the information may be provided in a footnote of some sort.

So currently what's heavily up for debate is if there will be the SABCDE category or ABCDE category and how the voting will go down. Should we all focus on these two topics before anything else?

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 18:54

#32

Bopp

vote against "S"

I vote against the "S" category, for two reasons. First, having a category above "A" would confuse the audience. Second, five categories should be more than adequate to differentiate among swords. Having too many categories gives the impression of precision, in a process that is actually highly subjective, non-repeatable, and imprecise.

By the way, another strategy is just to have everyone rank the swords from 1 to 19 (or 20 with Winmillion). This is equivalent to having 19 (or 20) categories.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 19:20

#33

Kwibble

My vote

I am going to vote against the S class as well, same reasons as Bopp. While it would be nice, it just adds more elements really.

@Bopp If that is done though, you would have to then categorize after you numerize - that is just painful in my opinion. I agree with Shadowstarkirby on this, categorization first.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 19:32

#34

Xephyris

ok so in summary:

- we'll have ranks ABCDE
- no sub-ranks
- we'll start with swords, then move on to bombs, guns, and armour in their own separate lists.
- winmillion and other 4* only weapons will be included
- ease of access will only be included in a little footnote.

personally i still think including winmillion and other 4*s would be pointless as they would definitely be last.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:22

#35

Kwibble

So?

Just because they may be last doesn't mean other people know that. Its supposed to help people in the long run.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:41

#36

Xephyris

@Kwibble

true, but my main point was that it's sort of unfair and pointless as they aren't even in the same spiral-knights star level, there's no point us telling people that a 4* sword is worse than a 5* sword, it's sort of a given.

ALSO: I will probably start work on the wiki page just to get some placeholder down within the week, so;
- what will it be called?
Sword_Ranking
Community_Created_Sword_Ranking
etc.

I wanted to avoid using the word 'tier' as it's already used in the game for level tiers, so it could be confusing.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 21:42

#37

Kwibble

Classes

@Xephyris How about Community_Gear_Ranks as a general page, then specified ones. So maybe Sword_Class_List

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 22:27

#38

Xephyris

how about

Community_Gear_Ranking as the general
and
Sword_Ranking_List as the specified one.

If this becomes popular enough, maybe people in the future will start saying "oh that sword is in CGR rank A"

Mon, 04/21/2014 - 00:18

#39

Kwibble

@Xephyris

Yeah, that would be pretty cool xD

So now it seems you have the material and system all ready to go. Now you just need two things, a template for the information, and voters.

I guess we can promote this by zone chatting the link for this every now and then, or is that not allowed?

Mon, 04/21/2014 - 03:36

#40

Xephyris

just made the page

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Community_Gear_Ranking

will work on it more later, I added everyone here onto the contributions list.

Of course everyone feel free to edit, but consult here or on the discussion page before making any huge changes.

Mon, 04/21/2014 - 00:48

#41

Kwibble

Very nice

If you need any help, message me on game via my forum name, or drop a post here or something :/

I would really like to help with this, but seeing I am no where near 5*, I can't really vote. But I CAN give an outside opinion. Take me as the test subject xD

I would suggest a template along these lines:

Class A {Weapon Category}
1. {Weapon Name}