Spiral Knights - New Sword: Stun Themed Whip

New Sword: Stun Themed Whip

22 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 13:47

Fehzor

The whip would be a new utility sword that focuses on range and support rather than damage. It would have a two hit combo, and damage identical to the cutter line without the ghost hit. It would charge in similar time to the brandishes.

Hit one: A long range slap that hits a single enemy, stunning it 100% of the time for minor stun.

Hit two: A spin followed by a long range grab, that flinches the mob greatly and pulls the mob towards the player if applicable. Optionally, it would also pull the player towards the mob if that mob cannot move proportional to the weight of the player and that mob. I.E. Turrets would involve the player being pulled up, lumbers would move slightly and the player would jump towards them, slags would come flying to you.

(No recoil after attacking)

Charge: A long range area slap that always deals minor stun, and knocks enemies into the center of where the charge hits.

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 15:02

Holy-Nightmare

Rather than a perfect stun

Rather than a perfect stun chance why not make it so that each swing deals three hits (no invincitics) give each of these a 20-25% chance of stun. Since these hits happen at the same time (or at least as close together as a blitz charge) the flinch chance would be nice.

It seems like a backwards troika that instead of pushing it pulls. Looks like fun (and dangerous to use) but in order to keep lower level players from getting their hands on one make the recipes start at 3star (like vortexes an equally dangerous line).

That perfect Stun would be OP in LD where ASI would make this into a horribly unbalanced weapon.

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Question:

Is the first swing linear or an arc?

Does the second hit things behind them with that swing?

Is the second affected by shocked/froze enemies? (if it does, will freeze broken before the pull or after?)

No recoil? Recoil as in magnus recoil or "reload speed"?

Charge seems like a the equivalent of a ranged vortex bomb with no knockback explosion, correct?

Damage type?

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 18:45

Fehzor

Keep in mind that this does next to no damage. 108 in stratum 6, or 51 in stratum 4 is definitely not something to write home about, especially as a 5* weapon. The guaranteed status effect would be there as the "main event", if you will. You would not craft this to kill stuff with it, you would craft this to role play as Indiana Jones and become a close combat specialist of sorts.

Another thing that I failed to mention was the range, which I imagine to be between heavy sword range and tortofist range. So about 4 tiles on the stun and 5 tiles on the grab, maybe? This is important because you'd basically be generating the charge attack directly in front of you.

As for lockdown, it would also root you in place while attacking, making you a relatively easy target for other players in lockdown. Since it would deal only minor stun, negating it would be as simple as bringing ice queen or UV'd stun gear of some sort.

Lastly, this is just a guideline to make it as well as how I would make it optimally. If it needs balancing or changing, that's fine.

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Answers:

The first swing would be linear, and very close to a gun shot.

The second hits just the one thing.

Freeze breaks before the pull, shock pulls in.

No recoil as in you can freely switch weapons. Attacking again directly afterwards would be slower, but you could get out of it and switch.

Yes, that would be the gist of it. It would be much shorter, and would only knock them in once, rather than holding them. This would make larger enemies not work. The stun period would be very short, so you'd have to be really quick to get in charges etc. with other weapons. Really, it would be much better suited for helping team mates.

Normal. It wouldn't be used for damage anyway.

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 19:52

Fe-Tarkus

What if there was a "direct hit" system wherein if you hit with the tip of the whip, you deal regular damage, but otherwise deal the substandard damage you have listed.

Meh... OOO would probably not bother going through the trouble.

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 20:08

Fehzor

I wouldn't mind having the full extension of the whip deal less damage, and just the tip doing slightly more for both hits. Perhaps if the full whip did the ghost damage from cutter.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 09:03

Holy-Nightmare

Considering it's damage it

Considering it's damage it would probably only get used by people with multiple weapon slots or recons in PVP (like we have a huge market for those guys)(# Sarcasm)

For the average player it would possibly fall into the same niche that the Winmillion does; a ranged swordsman choice that lets you shoot over gaps (wait we have DA for that).

Could possibly be a guardian weapon that takes control of the enemies to another level, Guardian already has flinch and massive knockback, why not add more enemy movement control weapons?

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 15:09

Whimsicality

Although whip-style weapons were suggested quite a number times, this suggestion poses a unique and fun-sounding idea to enrich the gameplay experience. The mechanics behind it would allow for some play with positioning and utility, while still remaining simple enough to feel appropriate for Spiral Knights. Plus, who wouldn't want a whip?

I fear that OOO would manage to muck up this idea to make it too niche because of poor execution of concept, like Tortoguns, Winmillion, Shard Bombs, etc etc.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 15:32

Fehzor

@Holy

You have the wrong idea about it. It isn't another long range damaging sword, it's a sword that combos with other swords as its primary function.

Acheron is to dark retribution as stunning whip is to stagger storm/vortex.

Acheron = high damage, single target to moderate crowd control
VS
Dark Retribution = high damage crowd control/single target damage, slow warmup time

Stagger Storm = high amounts of stun over a crowd. Slow warm up time. Poor damage.
Vortex = high amount of pulling mobs into an area; amazing crowd control, slow warm up. Mediocre damage.
VS
Stunning whip = high amounts of stun, single target. Mediocre amount of centralizing enemies. Poor damage.

---------

Consider:

Whip + Combuster/Acheron

Step one: Stun and pull an enemy to you from the crowd
Step two: Murder the enemy with brandishes!
Optional: Charge your whip to group them for your team mates.

Another forseeable tactic would be to stun+grab healers out of crowds, or use heavy swords to deal damage to crowds after the charge. With handguns, it would be possible to stun them and then switch for free and easy shots. It would be best used to grab and yank enemies targetting your team members, as they wouldn't be able to aggro or attack you so swiftly, and your team mates could use the help. I could see the same being true for lockdown, though I really have PvE in mind.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 16:20

Holy-Nightmare

I see the point in that it is

I see the point in that it is a long range, highly defensive, crowd control weapon. Considering the current market for high damage and little else this weapon would certainly not be one of the first items anyone would craft up to 5 stars, in general most would keep it at 4 just for that CTR.

As Rocky Marciano so eloquently put it "Why waltz with a guy for 10 rounds when you can knock him out in one?"

Yes this is a fun innovative new weapon but it only aids those who have a healthy arsenal spread to begin with.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 16:26

Fe-Tarkus

This would certainly make Neutralizer charge spam easier.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 12:36

#10

Fehzor

Thanks for the support! Feel free to post your ideas regarding this concept as well.

And I do hope that it would combo with neutralizer. That sounds fun.

@"What about how it upgrades"
I suppose that is rather true. Perhaps it could start at 3*, and be given out as a boss reward? The only real requirement to it benefiting you is to have a couple other weapons.

I imagined the stun on the first hit and the draw force on the second hit/charge becoming better (along with the damage) as it becomes 5*.

Something along the lines of...
3* = 40% stun; ~Pull back of about 2 valiance bullets; charge knocks enemies to the middle with about 1x valiance bullet.
4* = 80% stun; ~Pull back of valiance charge; charge knocks enemies to the middle with about 3x valiance bullets + stuns.
5* = 100% stun; ~Pull back of big angry bomb; charge does vortex effect for about a second after knockback, invisibly.

Again, this doesn't have to be exactly how the weapon works. Just how I see it in my head as working.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 17:35

#11

Holy-Nightmare

Considering the stun/vortex

Considering the stun/vortex safety, range (for a "sword"), and nearly universal utility I believe that damage less than the corresponding troika sword would be much more fair.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 12:37

#12

Fehzor

Edited some details to clarify on my above post; I'm glad that you agree with me about the damage on it.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:27

#13

Fangel

I'm having a bit of deja vu

I remember having an idea similar to this one a long while back, but this one is much better.

A 100% chance to stun does seem a bit wonky. Maybe the charge has a 100% chance, and the regular attacks only have a 50% chance. Why only fifty? That's stunning your opponents 1/2 of the time, which seems fair.
Making a sword that acts more or less like a magnus is interesting and I like it. First attack animation can be like the magnus fire animation, and the second attack can be a troika charge slam + magnus fire (similar animation is seen in the torto-gun, only the first attack is a flourish poke). Charge attack would be like a calibur charge + troika slam. That charge alone would make me happy.

And if, in PvP, when you pulled a player towards you, they did their invinciframes while playing the current callahan charge shot-fly back animation, I would be so happy. (This would be a bomber's dream sword)

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 16:01

#14

Fehzor

You know what else stuns half the time? Rigadoon against beasts n' grievers n' silkwings! Ka-zing!

I want this to be reliable. Like, if there is a stunnable mob, i.e. not immune to minor stun, then you should be able to stun that mob... especially if it's coming right at you or a team member! You aren't doing damage, and having to complete combos to use it would probably be kind of painful, at least half the time when it fails to stun. That's why the lower star versions would upgrade from 40% to 80% to 100%, giving a VERY real reason to upgrade your utility. A better idea, and one that I am not opposed to, would be making it deal damage only half the time. That would make it a poor choice for hitting switches and blocks in the heat of the moment, which is something that it isn't really designed for.

I did however considered having the charge not stun 100% of the time though, as it does crowd control as its main function and stunning like 6 non-mini monsters on the charge could make the item way too strong. But then I realized that players hate on utility weapons way more than they have any right to, and that anything that isn't a damage hog (combuster is "better" than voltedge/glacius in FSC how again?) is immediately frowned upon. So I think that it SHOULD be on the strong side, just a little. Like the vortex bombs are on the strong side, as are the haze bombs. Huge radius, huge amount of statuses.

However, if SEGA does value my idea and decide to go with it, they should listen in part to the lucky beta-testing prize box winners that get the weapon ahead of time and see how good or bad the guaranteed stun is. I'd hope that they would tweak this, and not just take what I've written verbatim after taking what I've written as close to verbatim as they can.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 18:08

#15

Fangel

... Oh here's an idea

Okay, going off on a bit of a tangent in a moment...
100% stun would work on the first hits if we perhaps had another version that dealt shadow damage and inflicted that "entwined" status that the Apocrean harvesters have. The entwinement would last, say, one second, always, and is only available via the apocrea event.

Reasoning behind this is because pulling enemies/players towards you will be hard, the latter rather impossible if the second hit deals damage before pulling. Also, we need more tentacle weapons.
(Alternatively make it minor freeze if you want status immunity and other boring stuff like that)
100% stun balances with this. Makes a reliable source of stun without using your shield bash, but doesn't immobilize your target. At the same time, the stun can last longer than one second and can be used on any enemy effectively(normal damage).

If we have a single line for this weapon, maybe having a 90% stun chance. A single weapon line with utility is fine and all, but no status from a weapon should be as reliable as the actual hit.

Fri, 09/12/2014 - 13:56

#16

Fehzor

That would be awesome. IDK how feasible making the tentacles are, but if it isn't freeze would do the same thing. You could have the second hit deal damage prior to pulling, such that the pull doesn't just not work at all...

Pretty much any variant to this would add a unique twist. Poison would add risk for higher damage on them after pulling in, shock would last longer, curse would....... be way too strong on this weapon and should never be a thing, freeze would be especially good on the charge, but would allow for some interesting uses with regards to the damage from it breaking, fire would be extra damage and would allow you to tease enemies with your whip from a distance.

My favorite combo idea (after normal+stun) being shadow+fire. That would be a sweet, much more damaging but still entirely supportive variant.

EDIT: Hoping for a few more people to comment on this. Namely Glacies, Zeddy, Bopp... possibly Krakob/Draycos, you know.

Fri, 09/12/2014 - 14:06

#17

Holy-Nightmare

I don't think those guys/gals

I don't think those guys/gals are suggestion forum lurkers like you, Fangel, and I.

More types yes!

Fri, 03/27/2015 - 21:43

#18

Recon-Blade

3D whipping?

How about the attack style is similar to that of Castlevania : Lament of Innocence?
I mean, the main weapon there is a whip...
Just a suggestion though...

Sat, 03/28/2015 - 10:23

#19

Fangel

Well hello necro.

I forgot about this suggestion, lol.

But I put all my thoughts in the suggestion when it was still active the first time around so I have nothing new to add.

Sat, 03/28/2015 - 17:57

#20

Fehzor

I remember this. I still think they really need to make more weapons like this, since there just aren't any.

The castlevania whip would be another good idea that we kind of need, and I'd love to see it added as well. In the gunner update, we got tons of mobile guns and new ways to really exploit being a gunner. I would expect a sword based update to do something similar for swords, and Simon's whip would be perfect for that if it is the direction the developers want to go in.

For reference- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngtJh12Esec

Fri, 04/03/2015 - 12:06

#21

Bullpig

this could be so cool for LD! grabbing pesky gunners sound like a dream i had one night...

still think the stun chance should be dropped, while the flinch should be boosted, that way you can grab an enemy and pull them close to you to deal some nice sword damage. the stun seems a little op but that's just me.

Fri, 04/03/2015 - 15:30

#22

Fehzor

I think that it should be a bit on the OP side since it does next to no damage. It's intended to be balanced like the haze bombs are- little ability to kill, massive amounts of status and utility.

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New Sword: Stun Themed Whip