@Krakob So THAT's how WW2 ended..

That loading speed tho

To refer to the thread:
Both sides you say?

Against AT
-Serves as a handicap for people with low skill
-Can further enhance highly skilled players "unfairly"

For AT
-Helps people with crap connections
-Let's people with no skill still have a fighting chance

Believe it or not, AT can actually be one's downfall. People like Blueflood, Kyoten/Remet/Suddenswift, Darknub, Dutch-Mcloven etc. know why. You can't become the best without knowing things that your competition doesnt.

Can't spill any secrets to the general LDers now can we? That would ruin the fun.

"Skill-based"?

That's about as correct as saying Farmville is a tower defense game. The fact is that those who pay for Trinket/Weapon slots, VH ASI UVs, VH CTR UVs, MAX status UVs, and MAX Defense UVs (yes IK about Zeddy's thread).

"But anyone can get these." True, but it is far easier to buy than to grind all the time to earn it. The fact is that most "good" LD players pay; strip them of their trinkets and UVs and you may (or may not) still have a good LD player.

For a game to truly be skill based (like chess) you have to remove all unbalancing factors, this would not only mean the removal of AT but forced loadouts (AKA everyone in LD has the same set).

To complain about the use of AT but not the use of other things used to tip the scales comes across as hypocritical.

-Do you think that using auto aim in lockdown is a good or a bad thing?
Bad thing. My main argument here is the skill thing you said. Would write more but no time.

-Do you think it should be removed from the game?
-No, not entirely. I couldn't care less if you use AT for PvE, heck I use it myself for brandish charges, winmillion, and DVS. There's no PvE competition anyway. And yes I know that people have lag and stuff, but lag compensation shouldn't come in the form of a handicap if it's provided at all. So AT removed from LD, yes, from SK as a whole, no.

And to answer the question you didn't ask, and agreeing with Holy-Nightmare to some extent, AT is certainly not the only problem with LD and maybe not the biggest one either. UVs, connection, balance, lack of a ranking/matchmaking system, lack of a playerbase, etc all are also major problems that need to be addressed whenever OOO actually takes a look at fixing LD. But fixing AT wouldn't hurt and IMO it needs to be done at some point, preferably sooner rather than later.

Ok, so my opinion about auto aim in lockdown.

Auto aim is an help that was designed to help new players who were still practicing their precision.
One you have improved in the game, you are normally able to aim by yourselves . in most games this kind of help is not allowed in pvp because this is the beginning of competititive game. so no help is needed . only skill.
Nevertheless, it looks like some people still use it whereas they are t3 , full 5* and full of Uvs. to me it's quite shameful but anyways.

Holy : I agree to say that to be the most skill-based possible, we would need to have the same weak stuff . But if we did so , it would be a loss of money for OOO . if we remove auto aim, we would make the game a bit more skill-based even if it s not completely and it would cost absolutely nothing.

As a nutshell, I m in the " first category :p"

and yes I'd like AT to be removed from lockdown only , not from the whole game. as I said it may be a good help for new people and even then for some special tasks in pve . But as soon as there is a competitive part ( in pvp) it has not its place.

Ones who want to remove the option to disable AT

I think it should be kept because it's hilarious. Have you ever put it on and just FF combo'd people? I've been speared narwhal-style myself many times. Very funny.

For those who despise AT, just do what you already do to protect your pride. Which is if you lose to an AT user just think "he would have never killed me if not for AT he has no skill" or if you win be like "omg I beat him even though I was at a disadvantage, I'm sooooo sexy." (replace male pronouns with female if you want)
And Bam! You never actually lose to an AT user and pride is intact! GG Problem Already Solved!

Btw someone should only use proto gear (to start a trend) and call everyone else noob for relying on damage boosting gear, I mean what? You can kill me in less hits than it takes for me to kill you? Talk about no skill, you have no skill, learn to aim! /rant

I wont even go indepth on how the server locations stop a ton of players from ever being able to match those with everything in their favor. Unbalanced Game!

People, for the good of themselves and others, should just learn to not take games so seriously. Just because people are not having fun they think they should drag people down with them too? I mean if they lose it's not like they get sent to the shadow realm forever or something. You lose like 200cr about. That's why I love PvE, the computer doesnt start complaining just because you beat it up or because the game is unbalanced. The computer literally loses just to make us feel better. Are we animals who only are happy when we beat others?

The rules have been set, you can use AT if you want to. Just don't tire yourself too bad complaining about AT, it's pointless and just seems like an attempt to ruin other people's fun. If they are gloating then you can try then I guess, but I dont see a problem with AT users who are just here to play. I think people can play however they want as long as no hacking or being a jerk :|

Let's try to get along and have some fun, people. I envy those who can lose but still have a fun time, I mean wtf? How do you do that?

Think about it like this if you are here to have fun, then try to have fun. If you play PvP to challenge yourself by fighting others who come in a rainbow of skill levels and maybe to improve yourself, then good for you. AT users increase this challenge. If you are here to prove dominance and that you are just better than other people, well then good luck with that kiddo and don't expect the people you are trying to defeat to bend to your every demand. And since this dominance isn't about the innocent goal of survival, it's nothing but selfishness and will be responded to with nothing but selfishness.

I mean what? You lost in a video game? Big Deal. Stop crying and fight them, win or lose. And if you want, then go train till you can beat them because you can always improve. Then proceed to beat them. Maybe if you really want to beat them, then put on AT yourself but if your No-AT honor code or whatever forbids that then I guess you do not want to beat them that badly and you'll just have to live with it. It just equals the playing field a little more or is not using AT just an excuse to lose planted beforehand? Once again if you still refuse AT but want to win, then train and get better. If you can't change your opponent, then change yourself. Obvious? Is it not?

If you want your experience to be at "full potential", just turn your own AT off. For all intents and purposes what other people are doing shouldn't affect your gaming experience, because they could be AI for all you care. After all, you have no problem with Devilites' aiming.

So if it isn't about pride, then it's something along the lines of "knowing that someone else does not want to play the game with more skill". That means you should also frown upon anyone who decides to go pacifist, or people who only fight players they outclass. People who spend time chatting with friends while playing Lockdown should also not be allowed since they are clearly not focusing on the game and being competitive.

You can totally enter a drag race with a Prius, but don't whine if your opponent wants to use a Ferrari. You may argue it's more competitive if both people are forced to drive Prius, but that's essentially creating your own race.

I guess you could say the game isn't exactly where I want it to be. I could care less if people don't go 100% tryhard mode all the time - I can't really blame them anyway, there's no real incentive to win RLD games. It's the fact that whether I use AT or not, if my opponent is using AT I'm not 100% fighting my opponent. I'm fighting partly against them and partly against the game's assist systems. I do care about whether my opponents are human or AI. Just the knowledge that there's a human on the other side of the knight fighting me, controlling it, is half of what makes LD enjoyable for me in the first place. I like real competition.

In a way, I would have had a better experience if the fact that AT existed was hidden completely and no one knew everyone was using it, or no one was using it. But knowing it's there and that some people are taking advantage of it is the part I don't like, I guess.

I realize I've said something to the effect of "it's just this one thing" about 4 times. I guess it's some combination of those, and maybe some other stuff I haven't mentioned yet. :p

Edit: Ninja'd by Illusion: Who were you talking to?

Who were you talking to?

No one particular knight.

My personal choice would be to have auto target disabled after the player has logged 10 hours in lockdown. That gives new players enough time to learn the game, or farm for their krogmos. A bit like a trial period.

You know, because if you've played LD for longer than that then maybe you can do without it?

If Ld actually becomes balanced enough then I could see how this would be an argument but to whine about AT being unbalanced when we have BK sets running about with guns that shoot through walls is just laughable.

LD will never be balanced.

Maps and teams are randomized.

UVs can render haze bombers nearly useless

HP trinkets make new players feel incredibly useless

ASI/CTR UVs make class and armor selection non issues

Holy-Nightmare and Fate pretty much said things that are impossible to argue with under the guise of wanting a "fair fight". I mean yeah I too get annoyed when I'm not using AT and someone proceeds to AT combo all my hp away in a dance of perfect autoaim by just clicking attack 3 times, but it's obvious what is going on here.

If you're truly out for a balanced game, then you are also against UVs, overly difficult to get/limited gear, and anything that gives another player an advantage to a certain degree. (So yeah kinda what Fate said, you can choose any gear you want and maybe there's a point system for UVs or maybe none at all). If you want a "fair fight" by removing AT but still want to have an unfair advantage then that makes you a hypocrite. Doesn't take a genius to realize aiming better and attacking faster are both unfair advantages (doesn't matter the degree of the advantage) along with doing more damage than other people. But wait! Everyone has access to AT! Therefore AT is balanced. (Yeah AT is affected by internet connection but we can't do much about that can we? Except suggest more servers, which will not happen. And no the East Asia server doesnt count, that's like a whole new thing.)

If you say UV's do not give a large enough unfair advantage compared to AT and that there is tolerance for some unbalanced . . . ness, well that tolerance is very subjective and people can merely say the tolerance is enough for AT to stay. Obviously UV's help you win fights, and UV's are not skill, just like how AT is not skill. Oh derp statuses can happen randomly! Let's take statuses out too cause his alchemer shocked and mine didnt, that's not skill either! Honestly, I say we should just hold a vote for these things considering they are so subjective it's not even funny.

I'm still certain this is just about wanting to beat that other person, that's it. I'm not entirely against removing AT, but these arguments need refinement because obviously they have not convinced OOO's to remove it from LD. I mean do you know how many people will stop playing LD if AT is removed??? Probably a good portion of the huge amount of ATers that are being complained about. I believe they intended LD to be a chill game to play and have a good time without competitive hounds everywhere. I mean look at the global leaderboards, it's basically whoever played the longest is on the top. Everyone just chill and try to have fun.

@Valtiros I already addressed that and the balance part up there. You say you want to play people who are better than you and AT gives people much better aim. So congratz they are now way more likely to be better than you. Happy Day. Also, whut, is that why people are mad, and people don't use AT so they can gain praise?
Think about it like this, if you beat someone who is using AT and you are not using AT, you're like waaaaaaay better than them. (Assuming you have similar connection). Much Praise will be given by whoever cares is good at a cartoony-looking MMO rarely-played video game that is focused on PvE.
Not only that, but there are plenty of non-ATers who are also good. You can bask in their glory as they stand with pride among those who use AT and maybe fight them when you get the chance.

@Whoever
Try to make good out of an unfavorable situation that you cannot do anything about and we'll all be much happier. Heck you can even imagine all ATers as just bots because there aren't enough people willing to actually "play the game". "play the game" = not using AT according to many non-AT users. You can also host a no AT GvG match spree because it seems no AT gaming has a good amount of supporters (It's ridiculous to expect randoms to abide by such rules. I mean AT is there and it's strong, therefore it will be used.) Solutions!

Just because some AT users tend to gloat doesn't mean you should stoop to their level and complain about a game mechanic that you refuse to use. Go start a no AT club and make not using AT some kind of thing to be proud of rather than trying to remove it by complaining to people.

Oh and if you don't want to look like a complainer who only points things out when the person who killed you is using it, how about next time you complain about AT, you take a good look at your teammates.

If you're all for a "fair game", and whether you are in GvG or randoms, tell your teammates to lay off the AT too (If you are really out for a fair fight, you should be able to suggest this to even your friends as well.), and not just the player who killed you.

Otherwise it just looks like a sad attempt to spite them to recover some lost pride over a video game . . . I'd rather side with the heroic honorable players than the bitter ones who try in every way to get back at those they lose to. Those who protest AT can potentially be one or the other.

I say we remove AT from LD, and then give everyone access to every piece of gear in the game while playing LD, non-UV'ed. Sound good?

...oh and balance BK and Chaos gear, that stuff is just silly.

Well, as Illu said it looks like you misunderstood my thought. :p my interest doesn't necessary lies in challenge. I only said that to show that this is not all about victory or defeat , it is about game fun, game experience. I came to pvp to fight players, not player + computer. If I wanted to do fight mobs, I would have come to pve. I am not saying that At users are nothing but robots, I m only saying that they are not 100% players. there is a part of computer in them.

As you said about Uvs and overpowered gears they are obously a source of "unfairness" . Lockdown would be fairer and more skill-based if they were removed. But as it was already point out, removing them from lockdown would be a loss not only for the players but also for three rings. People who invested a lot of money for their lockdown sets would feel kind of betrayed and in an other hand OOO would make less money from these people.
If it was not for this aspect, I would be totally for banning any kind of unfair stuff in lockdown and I would give everyone the same set at the beginning of the game. I myself complained a lot about asis when I was killed by people who were reacting slower than me but managed to kill me before I can hit them thanks to their GF asi vh or else. I gave up about Uvs when the points from above occured to me and I was explained them by three rings itself.

Why we blame Auto target? Unlike Uvs everybody can have it by default and that is exactly why it is easy to get rid off. If everyone can have it, nobody can have it too. It is not a source of unfairness, it is only a source of No Skill. and I think that the more skill-based the game is , the better it is right?
You said that between 2 AT users, admitting they have a similar gear and connexion , the most skilled one will win. It's not totally true. Auto aim gives a place to luck. I played lockdown with some AT users and I noticed that they were often surprised because they hit somebody they didn't even aim!
With it you can just deeply screw the attack butter and you may hit! I am not saying there is absolutely no skill amongst AT users but it can allow you to make dommage that you didn't even expect to do!!

Ok, no regarding connexion. I don't know if you tried all the situations, bad connexion good connexion, AT or not AT but some tests have been made and it reveals that Auto aim can help more people with a good connection than those with a bad one.
Why? Bad connection really hinders you at defense , not at offense . the latency makes you unable to react fast enough to dodge an ennemy attack. you see the opponent running after you and when you are going to avoid, you are already hit. In parallel, your timing is totally ruined by latency . You will give useless risky and punitive hits in the vacuum because of the delay. Auto aim will absolutely not help you with that . Conversly, it will enhances your precision . precision implies offense . people with a good connexion will only have to rush at you and combo you really easily thankos to their enhanced aim . The person will latency will just have to tank it because their delay make unable to react fast enough.
In a nushell, auto aim for everyone doesn't help people with a bad connexion more than it hinders them.

You said that removing auto aim would decrease the amount of lockdown players . I don't think so. even if some people ( very few) ragequit because they are not able to hit anything. I may look a bit self-centered but I will again take my own example . If I can have done without it after less than 5 lockdown games , I am sure that most of people can do without it after playing lockdown for months. As Illu said, most of players use it because the others use it too. If nobody uses it, nobody needs it. Even brandishes are playable without auto aim ( I tried and managed to do 20K without auto aim and without asis with brandishes only).
What's more, some people ragequit the game because of auto aim, and they might come back or come ( new players) once it is removed.

I will finish with game experience . I played with some auto aim users ( the same ones I already talked about) and I managed to make them try to play without it. They obviously did less dmg ( from 12K average to 6K average) but they told me that the game experience was more pleasant without auto aim on. they found the game funnier when they entirely control their character without being embarassed by the computer making their character hit where they didn't decide themselves.

"I couldn't tell if you meant the argument itself was hypocritical or what it is arguing is hypocritical.)"

I agreed to the bold section about some players only bashing the AT users opposing them and not their AT friends.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/102765

> this is where OOO talks about what they consider doing for pvp . they will not only have a look on auto target but completely overhaul the whole pvp system.

But...in a long long time...

Glowup > I'll answer later ^^

AT rocks you all suck

Just a quick touch up on this for Glowupball. From reading the above posts you've made(kind of skimming but whatever) you believe that people who want AT removed want a 'fair' game while they also use UV's which are not fair right ? Ever hear of levelling up ? Diversity in gear ? Most games have those factors meaning that no matter how you fight a person from one aspect you'll be at a disadvantage in some aspect(eg, a person using polaris will have an advantage of covering a large area while the person fighting against him using AP/carbine will have the advantage of being able to hit precisely). Having some defensive uv's or attack speed increase uv's is all part of this 'levelling up'. You can't expect a person who's been playing for a week to be on a fair ground with a person who's been playing for 3 years, this won't happen in any game really(very few exceptions exist but lets gloss over those). I've actually seen people who go into pvp with these amazing accessories worth millions of crowns(in quite a few cases more than my entire loadouts) and then whine about how I hit faster then them or how it takes more hits to kill me. Would you not say it was stupidity that put them in this situation where I have an unfair advantage over them ?

Moving on, lets compare how big of an advantage AT is compared to UV's and connection. Quite a few months ago I had a brandish(5*) which had an asi med uv(so something that is easily acquired) and had a chaos set which had no defensive UV's. On the EU server where I have close to 0ms ping, using that brandish(with AT) and that chaos set I've hit above 30k damage more than once with several caps as well. In this scenario it seems that UV's didn't really play a big role and the contributing factors seem to be AT and the low ping connection. BUT wait, there's more. I've also tried this out on the USA server in which I used to get 2 bars(around 160-180ms ping at the time) and while using the same loadout I've managed to hit around 25k damage with similar caps. The remaining advantageous factor in this is AT. I am aware that getting a lot of damage is situation dependant but being able to repeat it several times shows the effect of the game mechanic(especially since at the time I couldn't repeat the same result without AT being involved). Overall I can deduce that AT is a major factor in being able to win a fight while connection is a close second followed by UV's. In my opinion this equation is true. (AT > Connection + UV's).

Now let's see how removing AT(from pvp) would affect the game. People who mindlessly combo brandishes/flourishes/hammers will be forced to pick up some skill and do things properly so that's a bonus right ? People who AT brandish(with some placement skill, people who know how to move up to a person and place themselves in the right situation) would be forced to either learn how to aim since mindlessly mashing the attack button wouldn't hit 100% of the time anymore and they would get punished for each missed hit. People who just generally AT with general SS/flourish loadouts would have to just slightly correct their aim for some situations. So overall it would just increase the skill level of LD right ? You might also ask : what about the high ping players ?! Well, up until a 2 bar connection you don't really need AT to play as long as you got a functioning brain and the ability to predict. Once you strike the one bar zone the game is pretty much unplayable in my opinion so having AT and just clicking doesn't really seem enjoyable to me so I don't think it should even be considered.

Oh also to highlight something you posted on,
"The main reason its a big deal is because removing AT is taking away a big part of people's experience of the game. People like to use AT".
So what you're saying people enjoy using an aimbot ? I would've never guessed that using such a thing and being able to walk over everyone is something people would enjoy having.

And the last thing to note on, when 2 people with similiar connection but largely varying uv's meet(lets say a guy with full ASI VH and a guy with full ASI low meet) and fight. It largely depends on the skill of the 2 players on who's going to win and is not simply determined by the fact that the other has a better set while AT reduces that skill dependency by quite a bit.

tldr : AT > UV's + Connection.

Mhmm I see what yo are saying Drdovis. It is true there are games that do have pvp with levels however they often eventually cap and the real PvP challenge would begin when everyone is the same level cap (they also have the equalizer thing which balances out stats of higher level opponents). UVs on the other hand are not only difficult to obtain but there is a limited amount of gear with the UVs combinations people want and its absurd to assume everyone can get their hands on double max gear of the ideal UVs. It's unfair to have UVs because only those who invest insane time and money/real money into the game have these advantages. Even if the game makers decide to put this into the game, its still unfair and not ideal for a balanced and fair PvP. Gear choice ≠ varying levels Although I kinda do agree with what you are indirectly trying to convince me of. We should all have the same gear choices in PvP as people said up there. That would be fair and like many other competitive and successful games.

Diversity in gear is fine as long as people can choose from the same things (I consider Vanguards having to farm more 5* stuff to not be a big enough deal to say they are inaccessible unlike UVs). I believe skill lies in choosing gear before the fight.

As for the part arguing UVs are not the same level of advantage as AT, I've agreed on that part up there. Problem is not everyone can have sexy UVs, but anyone can put on AT. And that fact right there cancels out the argument that AT is unbalanced and proves UVs are.

I can see expecting people to reach 5* gear and viewing that as the level system, but UVs are absurdly difficult to obtain compared to 5* stuff. I don't see how anyone can argue to ban AT but not ban UVs; do you want a fair fight where skill and effort is rewarded or do you want game time/luck on UVs/money to determine the winner in many cases? Emphasis on many cases. I'm starting to think the reason people want AT removed is because they don't want luck based kills on them while they wear their strong gear. They just want to run down newbies and claim they have more skill. They do not believe in balance and only argue what benefits themselves. I hope this is not the case.

Since the argument a lot of people are making is AT doesn't use much skill, then it would also make sense following that same logic that they would also want to fight their opponent in the same gear or at least gear choices as them otherwise less skill is used one side just like AT.

Also, not sure if the part about people enjoy using AT is sarcastic or not. AT is strong as heck, and similar to using the best weapon in any game, people enjoy using it. Do you think if people complain FF/Hammer/DA/GF should be banned because they have large arcs and require less skill to aim with, they are right and it should be banned?

The part about people mindlessly comboing, if that's fun for them, I don't see how you can argue against that. If this was one big tournament, then I can see the problems against AT and how it requires less skill, but it isn't. This is randoms and without swarms of support and a lack of people arguing the other side, you cannot for sure know you are right in subjective matters. As I said before and by the looks of what you guys are already doing, No AT tournaments are a solution. No AT GvGs are also a solution. Where are the custom matches OOO's >:|?

True AT does increase the level needed to be successful in LD, BUT is that what people want? Obviously those who are very competitive agree, but it makes no sense those same people want to keep UVs. That's basically wanting to weaken those who get lucky AT kills and by keeping their strong gear, they can destroy even more. I would hate to ever see these people play mario party, the complaining about the whole system would be non-stop!

There are plenty of games out there that require more skill; those would be the games for competitive people to play. And if the counter argument is "this game is fun", well think about why this game is fun and try to imagine people who are also trying to have fun, but use AT. There's no "bonus" to removing AT and making all those AT comboers or whomever stop is only good for some not everyone. It's how you view it honestly and I see people who would not view it as a bonus. You have to view both sides or you cannot find the truth. Otherwise you'll only see just what one side wants.

IMO UVs are for the rich/veteran to feel nice and AT is for the casual/new person to feel nice. OOO's isn't as ignorant as people think. Oh and idk why non-ATers are pointing the blame at the players who use AT, they're not the ones who put AT into the game. They're just using a game mechanic. Go to the suggestions thread! And if nothing happens despite insane suggestions and support, well then I guess AT is here to stay.

I'll be here, but even I will get tired of shooting down subjective arguments that only one side believes in (not pointing at anyone). Gimme some facts please. Facts that argue a side, those that do not directly argue a side can be redirected.

Edit: That last paragraph on Drdovis' comment isn't really arguing anything that hasn't already been decided. Assuming he means by arguing UVs are less of an advantage, UVs should stay, I disagree. If both people were of equal skill (imagine a clone of yourself) and one had more UVs, they'd be more likely to win (doesn't matter how much more likely). An advantage is an advantage. Imo I think asi can really help in critical moments, even asi low, if two people are about to nail each other with a DA or something, whoever has more asi will get that finishing blow and it won't be skill. And yes I agree AT would have a larger effect than UVs assuming an asi vh DA/GF combo doesn't land on someone who doesn't have that much asi. Honestly, I think asi vh GF is OP and has like way too low of a cool down considering its damage, range, arc, and right after can be an even more powerful and more far reaching second swing with maybe curse.

Sure there are other factors outside of skill, but we don't know them and they can go either way so the playing field is considered neutral where even the smallest thing (UVs) can push the tide of battle. We're kinda talking about an experiment here and just the fact it gives any unfair advantage, means it's well . . . not fair. Also, the scenario I stated before assumed both are equal at using AT, happen to be wearing the same gear, and everything is neutral, and they both have AT, the more skilled would still win (more often). This gets me thinking, is knowing how to use AT more successfully than someone else considered skill?

I mean if you know how to use AT better than someone else it makes sense that's to be considered skill. It's like everyone has equal super powers, people are arguing they are OP and need to be banned, and two guys are fighting each other using the super powers. Makes sense whoever is more skilled at the powers will win even if the powers themselves are OP compared to people who refuse to use them. I mean if we all turn on AT there will be shifts in who is the best, but whoever is the best is the best and takes full advantage of the situation they are in and adapts to how AT works to claim victory. Sure someone might get lucky and kill them, but if we all turn AT off, someone will still get lucky and kill the best. Hmmmm. This brings be back to the question "should certain amounts of players have a say in how a game works because we aren't arguing balance, just how the game works like suggesting we have to press 3 keys in a row just to attack, I mean sure it adds more skill, but does it make it more fun for the majority of people? Probably not and fun/entertainment is the goal of video games I assume. Wtf this comment is long /e runs away.

You're stating that a skilled guy with no expensive UVs and no AT can not and will not beat a guy with VH UVs,I'm sure you will see something wrong with that if you try going ld sometimes.
while there are guys who are literally unbeatable when they AT even if their enemies are skilled or not,have VH UVs or not,or am I mistaken in that?
Spiral knights is an action hack&slash MMORPG ,every single game of that genre has a PVP system so that half the match is grinding PvE and gearing yourself right for the match,and the other half is the way you fight,what is different in sk is that it literally offers an aim-bot that basicly makes any fight between 2 AT'ers a match of has the better gear,but when 2 none AT'ers fight,skill will be more of a determining factor of who will win than UVs,that I can tell for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY1QI3aS4-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E03Wx1oQsk

Here's the difference between a player that plays without AT from a long time v/s a player that usually abuse of the feature, both playing without AT. You can see the titanic difference. The % of hits landed is huge, same as damage, skill lvl, etc. And we are talking about a player that usually with At owns 95% of the player databse.

Thats how broken AT is, knowing that both players shares the same UV's and such.

Without AT, LD is a completely different games, from meta loadouts, gubs, etc.

We need to ban At from T3, leave that crap for T2,that tier is full of noobs (like Rebel).

Those tests wouldn't tell [edit: manure]. We already know by numbers how much hp trinks and max damage helps. As for ASI, theoretically you should get higher hit rate without ASI. (Since swinging all the time and hitting n number of times will get you a hit rate of n/(matchtime/swingtime))

@Theirillusion

I would edit out the swearword if I were you

@Thread Topic

I still stand by my reasoning that AT is pathetic, BUT has upsides for people with more skill (non AT users)

AT provides a skill ceiling that is surpassed by real skill.

True in most, but not all cases.

Dont feel like explaining LD crap, but yeH

^Never said I was explaining LD to illu, dont make assumptions.

Only the first sentence was directed to Illu. Ill edit to make it more obvious