It is beyond stupid that you must use Energy to make Gear - if it costs 200 Energy to make Star 3 gear, I can only imagine that it gets ridicously high at higher Star gear.
It's fine for dunegons but its stupid that you have to balance your energy for dungeons and crafting.
Someone will say: "Why not buy enery with crowns?"
Well if we buy energy with crowns, how will we buy our recipies and the amount needed to also make the gear itself?
This might have been appropriate when the May 17 update came around.
Now, however, 100 CE can be bought for about 3.5K Crowns and it's unlikely it'll stay that cheap.
>Well if we buy energy with crowns, how will we buy our recipies and the amount needed to also make the gear itself?
From your crowns? Nobody's telling to spend your money only on energy.
@PDotAlex then were will you get the energy to make the gear?
...you're a troll, aren't you? Or why is the concept "Manage your crown income and spend it on gear AND energy" so hard to grasp?
...From your crowns. You have to budget them. It's not like you're forced to choose between groceries versus the electricity bill in real life, you have to decide how much money you can spend on each of them.
@PDotAlex no, I am not a troll. Also this is a GAME not real life, where managing things like money to spend on various things is important. Also not an RTS were you must balance your resources to build.
No - this isn't any of those, also why its annoying is because:
Alright so I recently bought a new sword recipie for 4k.
Then after getting the resorces it costed: 2k.
But lets say you don't have enough energy: Then you need to go out and grind to get money to buy Crowns.
But oh no - now you used all of your money to buy crowns. Now you could wait over night but does anyone want to wait 22 hours that they could be playing waiting to make 1 one piece of gear to save some money?
"Also not an RTS were you must balance your resources to build."
You are absolutely right. This is not an RTS were you must balance your resources to build.
This is an Action-RPG where you must balance your resources to build.
"Also this is a GAME not real life"
Uh, so?
Also, you can use CE bought with Crowns to run more dungeons and buy more CE. Rinse and repeat.
But why should you - it's a stupid system. It works fine for dungeons but do people really want to do that for EVERY piece of gear they wish to make.
Rinse and repeat? Rinse and repeat? I am pretty sure no one wants to do that, unless you apparently love to grind. If you have the materals, and the money, it shouldn't matter if you don't have the energy or not.
Also this is a GAME not real life, where managing things like money to spend on various things is important.
I'd say it's important to know how to manage your money in both of those things to be effective in either one.
Life is a game, you win in life by grinding and balancing your resources, you win in games by grinding and balancing your resources. Enough said.
Why is it that people chose not to use common sense when they ask questions like these.
Seems like you just want to play some other game. The CE situation with crafting is fine to me. Like everyone before me has said 'MANAGE YOUR RESOURCES' I've done it, grinded since I started playing now I am about one heat level from my first 5* gear.
Wow - this is the first time in any game, I have seen people defending Grinding. It's such a outdated and mundane tactic games use...
"Now you could wait overnight but does anyone want to wait 22 hours that they could be playing waiting to make 1 one piece of gear to save some money"
GO OUTSIDE AND THROW A FOOTBALL OR KICK A SOCCER BALL AROUND WITH SOME FRIENDS.
If you don't like playing outside then play your xbox or PS3.
If you don't have a gaming system then play a board game.
Everybody is acting like it's the end of the world when you run out of energy and have to wait for it to recharge.
There are plenty of other things you could do to take up time.
I personally am glad I have to wait. It allows me time to hang out with friends, and get some exercise.
IGN The one and only, Guardianknight.
@BlackSword - So your basically saying that you like the system because it forces you to wait? Meaning that you wouldn't hang out with your friends or get exercise otherwise?
Not trying to flame, but that's what you implyed.
Gear represents your achievement and progress in the game. This is made plain by the necessity for high level gear to access content further into the game, and not a certain number of floors cleared, or bosses defeated. Well, there is a requirement to clear 25 floors of one tier before the next, but no one ever complains about it.
Crowns might be thought of as experience points, which you then spend to make tangible representations of that experience and advancement, AKA gear. Unfortunately, the true cost of that is subject to the whims and fluctuations of the CE market. Some players elect to skip the difficult process of grinding and purchase CE outright using cash.
I don't agree with the May 17 update, which considerably increased the time investment necessary to raise one's level to Tier 3. However, I do think that SOME energy requirement for crafting makes sense, and encourages good resource management. It also forces players to occasionally take a break from the game. If they really want to play more or advance to higher level gear quicker, they'll fork over a few bucks for it.
Otherwise, grind away! You'll learn tactics and strategies in the meantime that will no doubt save your hide in the final stages of the game.
@JVoltage - that stuff isn't grinding though.
Grinding though is trying to make money to make another thing which allows you to make money to then make another thing that... Rinse and Repeat... :P
I would still make time to get exercise and hang out with friends.
My point was if crafting was free and you didn't have to wait as long for energy
I would end up spending more time on the game.
I love this game but the longer I'm on the less time I have for other things.
I'm at the point now where I can afford more CE and I'm on this game for
a longer period of time( at the moment it's honestly longer then I feel I should be).
Having to wait allows me the time to do many things while still being able
to enjoy around an hour or two a day on this game.
You can always troll some more on this site to pass the time and wait for that mist energy. You're doing great so far.
It's such a outdated and mundane tactic games use...
Welcome to RPGs.
@LordDarkness I love how I am considered to be trolling just because I disagree with ONE method of the game. I guess anyone with different opinions are trolls then.
@Replicant That's not an excuse.
@Replicant sorry, I said that then. Just on many other forums, some would use that as an excuse to justify something like this.
Wow - this is the first time in any game, I have seen people defending Grinding. It's such a outdated and mundane tactic games use...
So, you'd rather hit endgame and be completely geared up within a week, and easily get completely bored of the game by the next week? Because without any grind, that's what happens. Myself and several guildmates and friends did it, since we had over 10000 CE back from the preview times. In the end, the game died much faster than for most other players. Now I'm only really using ME when I can be assed to, while waiting for actual interesting mid/endgame content.
I'm too lazy to explain this for the tenth time, but basically, the limits on crafting and dungeon running (grinding) are there for a reason... and if you're too silly to know that reason, lack of content/tiers.
@kakelgis - You know what can stop getting to end-game fast? CONTENT!
That's what they're doing for Guild Wars 2 - no grind - but LOADS and LOADS of content.
Grinding isn't content - its a method of taking up people's time.
If grinding is what stops you from getting to End-game fast - that means otherwise the game doesn't have enough content.
I like this game, everything from the art style, combat, and just overall feel, is great. It's just this one system and that's all.
Dude, if some level of grind is going to be a dealbreaker, then it's possible that MMOs are not for you.
Besides, it's not as if you're mindlessly doing the same levels over and over again - dungeon layout is semi-random, and the strata are constantly changing. I suppose if you want to "win" then this could get irksome; personally, I prefer to play the game. Just go out and enjoy some levels! You'll make money, you'll collect materials (which, if you don't want or need them, you can auction, making you more money), and you'll get to play a fun hack'n'slash game for a bit.
Energy is never, ever going to be removed from crafting. Ever. Energy is how Three Rings makes their money, it's the driving force behind the game. Everyone else is right. Just manage your resources a little better and you'll be fine; you're not going to get the best gear overnight, but working towards that gear means playing the game; if that's not fun for you, well, why do you want to progress in a game you're not enjoying anyway?
Effrul, I salute you. That last sentence gains you 100 internets.
Another thing is the way the income curve works - once you've saved up enough to get one bit of advanced gear, you'll quickly find yourself making increasingly profitable runs. I'm currently saving towards some 5* kit; ¢25 000 for the recipe, ¢5 000 and 800En for crafting. At current energy prices, that En charge is equivalent to about thirty grand in Crowns, so overall, you're looking at ¢60k for a 5* item. It's a daunting figure initially, but a Tier 2 run should be netting you ¢3-6k; I've not explored Tier 3 much, because it's evil (especially on my slightly ill-considered equipment loadout), but considering the step up in profit between a flawless T1 run and a sort-of-ok T2 run, I doubt it'll make much odds once I've broken the initial hurdle and start making some really successful delves.
@Effrul - this part of the game isn't [i]some[/i], it's a huge factor that you can't progress unless you do it. I am fine with a little bit of grind, but if I have to grind to get all my pieces of armor.
Something like Monster Hunter is fine with grinding because - there is no other payment besides getting the game itself, and the game itself since you just fight monsters - leands it self well to it.
A game like this - where you go through levels (sometimes never get an item you need a lot, like I only have gotten a couple of Blue Shards ever but need like 5 or 10 for some pieces of gear) but at the cost of something each time. That doesn't lend it self to grind at all.
Grind is only well when games lend it self well to it.
Sure its FREE, and free developers do need a way to make money. I am not agruing against that. BUT - they shouldn't make that a barrier to get farther into the game. Then the game becomes a Pay to Win rather then a Free to play game.
See, that's why I don't bother with explaining those kind of things over and over. People are too stupid to realize some basic things. They just make assumptions on their own opinion without analyzing the issue and thinking about whatever reason there is for those things to be there.
If you did any kind of search about Three Rings and this game itself, you'd know they're indie developers and their team is incredibly small. They simply cannot create content at the same rate as other big developers, such as NCSoft or Blizzard. They're at most a team of about 10 developers, (which work on this game, that is) while those other big ones have hundreds of developers and staff working on their games.
Again, not going to bother explaining this better, so just understand a few things:
-Content variety and amount is limited. This was mostly a mistake by releasing the game way too early.
-Content cannot be created at the same rate as it is consumed by players. As they hire more developers, this issue eventually won't be much of a problem anymore, but understand that this is a long (as in, several months/years long, not some weeks) and expensive process.
-Grind is thus used to increase the general longevity of the game. Over the time, the grind will be reduced, as content gets added. Don't expect it to get any better after you reach endgame, however.
-If you don't like grinding, CE is there. You shouldn't really demand things from a game if you aren't willing to pay for it.
-Stop being so preposterous and making assumptions, actually think about the reasons and logic for such things to exist before you start whining about necessary game mechanics, simply because you don't like it.
BUT - they shouldn't make that a barrier to get farther into the game. Then the game becomes a Pay to Win rather then a Free to play game.
...oooooh boy this again. Why do I even try.
>Then the game becomes a Pay to Win rather then a Free to play game.
But in SK, skill > equipment, and skill = time spent with the game * learning.
@kakelgis - They're supported by SEGA, at least are their producers, meaning they should get some benefits from working with them.
Also what could easily stop grinding - about they add quests for the dungeons? Doesn't require to make new dungeons and from them you should get energy/crowns - solves the grinding problem. Their might be quests but as far as I know there isn't.
Also it DOES make it pay to win. They released this game as Free to play, they should have known, that people would complain about having to pay. If they didn't want it to be like this they should have made the game pay to play instead of free to play.
You shouldn't have to buy to advanced faster, that's stupid. As I said if they didn't want people to say this then why make it Free to play?
-Grind is thus used to increase the general longevity of the game. Over the time, the grind will be reduced, as content gets added. Don't expect it to get any better after you reach endgame, however.
Like I said - grinding will drive people AWAY. No one likes it. Also if they didn't want this to be a problem - why release the game early? If the game wouldn't have enough content then wait a couple of months. Delay it and then release it once it has enough content that they won't have arguements such as this.
-If you don't like grinding, CE is there. You shouldn't really demand things from a game if you aren't willing to pay for it.
Then why advertise the game as Free to play if you're just going to have to pay?
-Stop being so preposterous and making assumptions, actually think about the reasons and logic for such things to exist before you start whining about necessary game mechanics, simply because you don't like it.
Necessary? No, hell no. It isn't. They could make their money other ways - do the system of making clothes, double money drops, etc in cash shops.
removing energy from crafting is dumb for more than one reason
1. it would remove the biggest energy sink in the game which means people will be less likely to buy energy whether with real money or not
2. it would make getting gear even more insanity easy than pre-5/17 patch
3. it would remove grinding, the only thing this game that can keep a player's interest regardless of anything u have to say against it. think about it without grinding what does this game have? exploring the clockworks would be boring and repetitive, and there are only 3 bosses currently which aren't thrilling enough to keep the player's interest by themselves.
face it korten this will not work
@monkeyman135
3. Remove grinding would be great? Do you know what rep most Free to play games have? It's bad and you know what things make that?
GRIND FESTs.
Perfect quote from Massively: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/01/free-for-all-which-came-first-th...
The saddest part about all of this is that there are always players eager to accept grinding as a path to glory. Thanks to those repetitive-action fanatics, the rest of us have to deal with games that feature the linear grind. If that sounds harsh, simply consider that game design is based on popular opinion, such that if we didn't value it in mass numbers, it would not be there. If we preferred dance-based gameplay, then we would see a lot of that, too.
The grind was an early conception, for sure. We know that. I say we should outgrow the concept already. We should stop OKing the use of grinding as the only way to grow our characters, cities, and armies.
It's time to leave that dead-end job... let's try freelancing for a while.
korten your dumb beyond belief you wish to end the game with this
without energy needed for crafting i could easily get a full set of 5* gear and than some then what? i have nothing more to do from there.
grinding in this game is essential to the longevity of it and many others
korten i suggest u go uninstall spiral knights this game isn't for you. i LOVE the grind it gives me a sense of accomplishment. i played runescape in that time i spent 2 years grinding my skills mainly mining, Guild Wars i spent 18 months playing a pvp mode known as Alliance Battles for the title it gives, and there are many others and without something to grind i wouldnt have played for as long as i had
@Monkey - yes I am dumb beyond belief. /sarcasm
But you know what - their is many ways to make it so you can't get to that 5 Star gear.
Resources that you can only get on certian depths, the bosses as mentioned, which probably do also give some already, quests, random bosses that appear in levels, or how about a long story-driven quest line that eventually allows you to unlock the ability to make 5 star gear. Or make the resoruces a bit rarer to get.
Why must GRIND be the backbone of this game, why must it make it so its hard to get higher gear? Also if its the reason for the games longevity, then the game was clearly released way to early as it then has not enough content.
How about the need to do quests as I mentioned before.
Also you mentioned Guild Wars which while it does have Grind at higher levels. It still also has many side-quests and zones to explore, espicialy if you have EoTN, Nightfall, and Factions.
(Also better get better with grammer, I am sorry, but you call me dumb, but don't use some basic grammer. Even if english isn't your native language, grammer is essential.)
Grinding would be a problem if it's all just about the numbers.
But, oh shock! Spiral Knights is more about SKILL!
And how do you get skill? Through repetition! Learning attack patterns, the right timing for blocking etc. Crowns and the gear you can buy with it are just a nice little side effect. You shouldn't focus on the goal, but rather the way.
Sorry, but if I learned one thing in my life, it's that working for something is more rewarding and fulfilling than just... getting it. Feel free to prove me wrong and present a concept that makes Spiral Knights completely grind-free without the developers having to rush out content instead of carefully working on it.
@PDotAlex, I think you're all mistaken. I am not saying it should be EASY to get the gear.
No, if it was easy to get the gear, that would be stupid. I am just saying the grinding to get gear is stupid.
Also ways to stop grind.
1. Quest Lines - this wouldn't require new content. Use quests that use the current content. Reward players with things like crowns and energy. Also possibly unlocking new sets of Star gears.
Also just side-quests.
2. PVP - this would require a bit of work, but this could be another way of making crowns and energy. Have tournaments where the winner gets crowns and energy.
3. Challenge Rooms - Similar to the depth rooms that allow you to go through three rooms of fighting. But instead these would require people to work together and go through puzzles with special rewards at the end.
4. Rewards after each floor - basically things like - how many enemies killed, how fast you were able to finish the levels. Kill combo's, how fast can you kill an amount of enemies. The rewards would be energy and crowns. But since going through dungeons is the main method of doing things. The amounts of crowns would be decent amount. Maybe energy but that might be going a bit far, as energy is fine with it requiring to go through dungeons.
- Hell some of these would make the current system a bit more berable.
As the game is, no-grind ever is a bit impossible. I am merely suggesting a way of toning it down.
i have all the resources needed from all the dives into the clockworks. the only exceptions was mainly sunsilver
NOOOO not the quest system!!! and you said grinding with an outdated system the quest system is even older more stupid than the grind (guild wars 2 save us!!)
why is it so hard to get higher gear?
it's called challenge. it wouldn't be near as worth it if you could get the same gear but easier. many games are like this released prematurely but that's where support from the players helps the game into maturity.
i have them all and i have most of the titles out there from cartography to vanquishing. the quests amounted to little but a block of text with instruction. i could accept them without reading and simply run to where ever the arrow pointed and never know what the point in killing what ever was there... i don't want that in SK
grammar nazi alert.... its the internet and there r worse people than i. gauging a person's intellect based merely on grammar is pretty narrow-minded of u. i choose not to use the proper grammar because i am a slow typist and want to save time.
>(Also better get better with grammer, I am sorry, but you call me dumb, but don't use some basic grammer. Even if english isn't your native language, grammer is essential.)
*grammar
All your suggestions to alleviate the "grind" require MORE CONTENT. As mentioned before, the Spiral Knights development team is VERY SMALL. And they are working hard on new content - new bosses, PvP, etc - but it will take time!
Honestly, Spiral Knights isn't even a grind. The gameplay is slick, partying is fun, and advancement is quick - particularly with current CE prices. And since everything is gear-based, players don't have to level up multiple characters to get the benefit of using all the weapons and armor. Spiral Knights has BY FAR the quickest advancement for any MMORPG. In the time I can make a 5* piece of gear in Spiral Knights, I could gain one level in Lineage 2. Or complete a raid in WoW.
@monkeyman135
Its better to have a quest system then no quest system. Guild Wars 2 won't have it because it's made to not have it (and I know, I have a forum topic on another site dedicated to all GW2 info) but to not have it doesn't make things better.
Also Grind =/= challenge.
A challenge would be like I said Challenge rooms, harder dungeons, boss fights. Grinding isn't a challenge.
Also even if you don't read the quest text (which no one ever does) - Also that's because those aren't the same as Spiral Knight. SK wouldn't and couldn't support a system of poiting arrows to where to go. Seeing as you aren't in a open world but an instanced world, plus since levels are randomized, it would have to take an account into that.
Grammar nazi..? Try proper typing. Also on the internet - yes you can. If a person can't type correctly that says something about them. No offense but in school they teach grammar, ignoring it says something about a person intellect.
side notes :
- by paying you can get to 5* in about half a day.
- lots of people who are paying nearly ruined the game by manipulating the market ( ce at nearly 8k since a couple of days ago ... )
- when you don't pay, just be patient and play other games :p personnaly I run entirely on me now but it's just that I can't stay on sk for more than an hour before getting bored XD
this game wasn't designed to make people grind, you just save up your money, that's why there are me. people grind because they aren't patient at all. they launched this game with the aim of a relaxing game to play with other peoples, not as a competitive game to see who would have the best stuff in a short time unlike a lot of mmo now. by grinding without thinking you can lose time while gaining very little money lol well not true right now but who knows when the ce will rise again ... it once rose from 3k to 6k in a single week. just do a couple of runs with people you like to play with, relax and see your crowns rising :p
be more patient, they are realeasing new stuff pretty fast now but don't expect the devs to lessen the energy costs or they would likely be ruining themselves
@Korten12
>Grammar nazi..? Try proper typing. Also on the internet - yes you can. If a person can't type correctly that says something about them. No offense but in school they teach grammar, ignoring it says something about a person intellect.
I was correcting your misspelling of grammar. I found it hilarious that you were complaining about other poster's "grammer", but in reality, it is your grammar and spelling that needs improvement.
>A challenge would be like I said Challenge rooms, harder dungeons, boss fights. Grinding isn't a challenge.
Uhhh... danger rooms? Firestorm Citadel? Vanaduke?
@Zargulis - I never said once that I had the best grammar, I do need improvement, but Monkeyman barely has some of the most basic of grammar (Forgets some periods, caps at start of sentances.)
Also I didn't know of those rooms, I am only Tier 2 atm, I never also said I was an expert on the game. Just from what I have seen.
Danger rooms appear in every tier.
@Zargulis - Oh - are you refering to the rooms where there are three rooms where you fight off enemies and they're harder each time?
That's not what I was meaning though, Challenge Rooms not that you fight off rooms of enemies. But like puzzles and such.
no it isnt its the opposite most people wouldn't do them because they are pointless
i never said grind was the challenge i meant to say that the challenge is getting the materials to make the gear. this involves repeated dives into the clockworks, brokering deals with selling of various things from materials to recipes, etc
they aren't truly randomized we do choose the theme but the levels are often repeated
It's not that I can't type correctly, it's that I choose not to. I'm fully aware of the teachings in school, but I reserve the usage of proper grammar for when the opportunity calls for it. Let's take for example: writing in English class of any level, writing a resume, or other formal occasion. An internet forum is hardly such an occasion, mock me as you will, I won't stop.
@Zargulis - I get it that Three Rings isn't a big studio, but they're being backed by SEGA, which while not the biggest publisher ever. Can probably help Three Rings out if needed and gameplay can be as slick as possible, but that doesn't remove grind. Vindictus has good combat, but it has a bit of grind of doing the same levels over and over again for an item that may or may not drop.
@Monkey - will no more arguing with you.
But you know what, I honestly give the hell up. This is the first time I have ever had this many against one. On other games this would be the opposite. On other forums people would agree with the end of grinding. Apparently on here, that's the opposite.
The reason why energy is used to craft gear is because:
You dismissed kakelgis's second post with no more than "Oh, well if they're working with Sega, they must have some benefits." This is not true because Sega is merely the publisher and has nothing to do with development or development resources. I suggest you re-read and understand what kakelgis said in that post.
Your suggestions to "tone down the grind" are possible, but actually unnecessary. If you had done any sort of reading beforehand, you would know that nick (the lead developer) already has PVP and many other things in the works. Personally, I think TRD has and will continue to do a great job with coming out with new content and informing the entire community about it. Isn't that what you're complaining about?
Finally, and most importantly, I want to tell you that I have personally found it pretty easy to progress without spending a single cent on this game.
Spiral Knights really isn't that difficult or as "grindy" as you claim it to be.
EDIT: In response to "other forums people would agree with the end of grinding"...
... that's because Spiral Knights isn't "other games". It's agitating to us to have someone who is completely new to the game to come in, insult how the game works, suggest making sweeping changes and additions to content that is obviously beyond the current timeframe and capability of the developers, and then insist that he is right. Your suggestions are quite welcome, but your insults aren't. Aside from the people insulting you (they don't matter), kakelgis, myself, and others have provided explanations and reasoning for why this system is in use.
that's because you are in the wrong on this
if it was any other game i might have agreed on some points
Grind.