Let me take a swing at that dead horse there...
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 01:59
For those of you not familiar with expressions and haven't caught on, this is another thread about the relationship between CE and Crowns in Spiral Knights.
Everyone else has taken a swing at the issue, and I've read a whole lot of them. A few friends of mine, and myself, have recently started the game. We didn't start it right away when it came out on Steam, we were a little late to the party, back when CE was going for 4k or so. We were fine with this, we didn't make a lot of money, but one pop of 2.50$ got us out of Tier 1 and on our way with plenty of energy to spare. Then the price started going up, and all of the little things started eating away at us. This wonderful beat-em-up mmo hybrid turned on us right as the difficulty took a spike, and it's left a bad taste in our mouth. The thing is, we actually like the challenge, it's the constant, looming threat of energy that sets us off.
That's why we got together and looked over a hundred, million, bajillion, side-ways 8 threads to see what people had to say. After enough time, we came to a solution we thought the devs could agree on, one that would keep the game from going belly up without sacrificing OOO's profits, and yes, it will go belly up. The entire thing is geared towards an unfortunate end that involves only well geared players with no real need for crowns and oodles of CE stockpiled playing, which means no money for OOO, and a dead game shortly thereafter.
For convenience's sake, we've split this into a fairly simple and easy to understand 3 step plan that's elaborated on in each column.
Step 1: Advertise. This may seem like a no-no to those of you that aren't a fan of such things, but advertisement can be incredibly harmless if it's put in the right places. For example, using a gate could cause a window with an ad to pop up and show off a product while the elevator animation plays and the game loads. It's completely harmless, as you wouldn't really be using the time for anything anyway. What this does is gives OOO more money without tampering with the CE, which MUST happen first. The plan, no matter what it is, has to be tailored towards the best interests of the company, or they'll be a lot less likely to adopt anything close to it.
Step 2: Adjust energy costs in one of two places, or both, or offer an oft-suggested alternative. What I mean by this is; reduce the energy cost on using gates, reduce the energy cost on crafting, or make mist tanks purchasable for a sum of 2-3, or even 3.5k crowns. I pick this number as it is quite noob friendly. The mist tanks can be modified to only add 70-80 energy if necessary, the point is to make it possible for a player to get back into the action *while* making a profit. These things keep people happy and playing, which is good, because the more people that are happy and playing, the more potential profits from advertisements.
On top of this, I'd like to suggest that OOO implement a method of upgrading materials. It could be as simple as 10 of a 1 star item into a 2 star, with a crown fee based on the way that quality of item generally sells on the Auction House. This isn't necessary, but it added crown fees give this form of currency more value in other areas, which helps in creating the sinks that are desperately needed to keep them worth something.
Step 3: The most important step. Fluff. Yes, Fluff. This may confuse some of you, but it's really quite simple. On top of the obvious added content that will probably eventually lead to 6-star items, fluff objects need to be added that require large amounts of money and give a person a reason to want to have them. Repairing equipment is a good place to start, as it will exist beyond all other costs, and the price can be based on equipment quality. There should be more, less "hassley" types of crown sinks though, which is why I say Fluff. This could be as simple as "costume apparel" that can make your character look silly or extra awesome, or as elaborate as in game housing that you can show off to people. Step 1 and 2 only delay the inevitable without these things, as crowns will still eventually become worthless to more and more players. The reason why step 1 and 2 are step 1 and 2 is that we have more time, and this potentially keeps new players coming in and profits rising for OOO. The nice thing about step 1 and 2 is that they can basically be handled fairly quickly, although their implementation may not be the smoothest. That is irrelevant and can be polished later, though, as the major new influx of players are in desperate need of steps 1 and 2.
Added ideas for fluff in Step 3: Armor Dyes.
They don't make the crowns older players do, and as such, the game isn't free to play as advertised. As I speak, the price of CE is rising to a point where new players cannot break even. Sure, ME recharges, but there's a glaring issue there. It takes a long time. People want to play the game before them, not persist the way an npc does, but that's what it has become for many. They sit there, repeating content, but never actually getting anywhere unless it's the rechargeable ME that's being used. This scares them off, and F2P players will never, or buy very little, CE, which only further hurts OOO.
Now, as a quick recap, let's look at what the plan accomplishes:
Step 1: Advertise. Create new revenue so energy changes can happen without hurting OOO's profit.
Step 2: Make changes to energy costs. Several options are up, but the point of them is to decrease the costs on players and to keep them playing, which only further increases the effectiveness of Step 1 and makes them happier to play the game (and, as an afterthought, leads them to recommend it to others).
Step 3: Fluff, or in other words, Crown Sinks. Give those people with everything a reason to keep spending crowns on things other than CE, as vets buying CE at exorbitant prices makes things rougher for the new players that will eventually cause the game to become stagnant and halt growth. It also gives vets a real reason to keep playing (other than for the hope of content updates). As stated, the easiest and simplest way to start with this is repairs, but that isn't exactly "fun". It's simply a necessary evil that can be implemented quickly and gives crowns *some* sort of value outside of trading for CE. It's also easy to tweak based on a character's strength, and gives players a sort of reward for playing better than well enough to get by.
TL;DR - If you don't want to read it, it probably wouldn't interest you anyway. Move along.
To those that did read, even if you hate me and everything I've said, thank you for the time it took you to look over it. Comments and criticism wanted.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 02:30
#2
.
I know step 2 isn't perfect, but the cost of mist tanks can be adjusted, which is where its merit lay. As long as Mist Tanks can only give a player 100 energy they'll never be able to craft anything higher than 2 stars, and basically keeps the game slow. The people already willing to buy CE in large amounts can actually reach endgame without playing because it's all gear based and CE gives you everything you need so long as the auction house exists.
I'll definitely admit that it's flawed and that there's probably a better solution. I just don't know what it is, and I'd really like to hear one. As it stands though, mist tanks (modified, of course) are where I think prices can be adjusted to the appropriate cost. This will essentially create the DDO effect, in the sense that paying money will get you all of the content fastest, but theoretically, with enough elbow grease, it is possible to do everything without paying real money, and DDO has the most successful F2P model out there.
To put it simply in a TL;DR fashion, I agree with you, it's flawed, and I'd like to see a better suggestion, but as it stands this is the best I've got for now :(. It'll work, I'm sure, but I agree that it won't work as well as it could and that there could be mid-long term problems that arise later.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 03:07
#3
crown sink
speaking of crown sinks why not just increase the crown charge when crafting items? a mere 5000 crowns to craft a 5 star item seems ridiculously low to me.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 04:03
#4
RE: crown sink
This *could* help. Tier 3 players are one star rating away from the top of the top, and they're stuck with little to do once they reach 5star equipment anyway. I only worry that those that haven't reached it yet will be upset about those who had it easier. I would suggest it only for 5 star equipment, because increasing the cost for lower tier players will make an already increasingly expensive world even more expensive.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 06:00
#5
I'm tired of the tone of these threads
Everyone's so sure that they know better than the game creators, be it in balance, design, or the oft-repeated CE cost concern. I don't know how the game is doing financially, but I do know that any ideas I might have to improve it would be far less well-researched than anything they've already put into practice. I certainly would never presume to say that my idea would keep the game from going belly up without sacrificing OOO's profits, and yes, it will go belly up.
Come back when you have several financially viable games under your belt, or change your tune to reflect what you and I both are: A player who would love to improve on a great game, but has no flipping clue what they're talking about.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 07:59
#6
@Winkers
First, I'd like to say that I read your entire post. I don't "tl;dr".
Second, allow let me educate you on some Spiral Knights history.
As I speak, the price of CE is rising to a point where new players cannot break even.
Before the Steam update, CE prices on the market were stable around 7000 Crowns per 100 CE. That's a far cry from the prices two weeks after the Steam release, and you should expect it to move back to the pre-Steam price point in another two weeks. However, despite that high price, new players were still able to do more than break even, for one very simple reason: mist energy recharges infinitely. I don't know how to state it more plainly than this. I'm not sure what people are moaning about when they say that SK "is not free to play". In fact, it's quite the contrary, for the reason I stated.
Additionally, prior to the Steam update, I started an experiment where I created a completely new character and attempted to progress it from the crash site, to the Rescue Camp, and go from Tier 1 to Tier 2, and eventually to Tier 3 in a reasonable amount of time. Here is the thread. And if you don't want to read the entire thread (though I suggest you do), at least read kakelgis's reply. In that reply he also links to another thread, which I suggest you read.
Assuming you read all of that, I think you'll have a greater understanding of what the real problems with this game are. They aren't as shallow as "CE and crafting prices are too high".
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 09:31
#7
To start off,
- The entire thing is geared towards an unfortunate end that involves only well geared players with no real need for crowns and oodles of CE stockpiled playing,
is your 'figured' main problem and it needs to be solved first, which step 1 & 2 doesn't seem to help in any way. Step 3 does but that'll be too much on a small team and that one step has way too many points.
In the midst of all these, the SK Team of 2 that became 7, took 3-4 years to release this game, so they should know better how the system work more than we can improve it.
To end it off, the CE Market is a player base market and OOO has nothing to do with it.
P.s. repairing is a good idea among the whole thing, but definitely not for those that are starting out.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 09:49
#8
econony
the economy in ruins? pffff.....
time to get my game on bro no what im sayin......
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 10:33
#9
Don't make me repeat myself.
The crystal energy market and you: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/4620
CE/crown balance issues: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/11175
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 11:43
#10
The "unfortunate end"
The biggest problem threatening economic stability definitely seems to be the endgame players. Once someone has crafted all the gear they need to farm anything in the game, they no longer spend significant amounts of CE and they earn huge amounts of crowns.
What is there to do with crowns when someone doesn't need them for buying from the AH or crafting? Pay the trivial fee for starting at Tier 2 or 3... and buy CE. Even if one doesn't need the CE, it's a sound investment because it will never become valueless and it's quite likely that the value of CE to crowns will keep going up because of all those other people with excess crowns buying it...
There simply needs to be a significant crown sink. It shouldn't be something that hinders progression, as that's expensive enough already, so fluff is a great place to start. Vanity items, customization, possibly minor gameplay boosts like adding or upgrading a UV to an item. Make it cool enough and expensive enough that a veteran player might even buy CE to acquire it faster.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 13:10
#11
I agree with you ideas.
I agree with you ideas. Pop-ups aren't nearly as annoying as CE prices
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 14:02
#12
I'd pay an obscene amount of
I'd pay an obscene amount of crowns for the ability to change the color of my armor
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 14:13
#13
Thank you to everyone that
Thank you to everyone that has replied.
To those of you disregarding what I say on the grounds that I have no clue, I do have a clue. I didn't base this off of some fairy tale in my head, I looked at other, successful F2P mmos and geared my solution towards reaching stability.
Others have made it clear that I haven't completely detailed how step 1 and 2 work with 3 for an overall solution. They're there to help reduce player's dependency on CE without lowering OOO's profits. In fact, step 2 is to make it so people can play more, which boosts the potential revenue of advertising higher while making the game a little easier to play. Sure, the people that buy CE will have an advantage, a big one, but as it stands, that advantage is worth *months* of ME regeneration time, and that's a hard thing to accept as a new player.
Step 3 is very broad, but that's because the devs could really do *anything* they wanted with it, so I simply put a collage of examples people generally enjoy in games like this.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 14:40
#14
"Sure, the people that buy CE
"Sure, the people that buy CE will have an advantage, a big one, but as it stands, that advantage is worth *months* of ME regeneration time, and that's a hard thing to accept as a new player."
This is only hard to accept if the player never plans on spending money on the game.
As for in-game advertising it really depends on how many people play the game. A generous estimate puts the game population at 20,000. Now how many companies would invest money advertising to such a small group? Especially in a free-to-play game where the majority of players are those who are adverse to spending money on anything? You use advertising like buzzword, as if all a company or institution needs to do to generate new revenue is start letting other companies pay them to "advertise".
Another thing, why would OOO have to implement step 2 in order to be allowed to implement step 1? There is nothing stopping them from just plastering advertisements everywhere.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 15:10
#15
RE: xiax
Step 2 is to make the game more accessible and grow that playerbase of your estimated 20k. The issue with your comment on my 'hard to accept' line is that as long as people are expected to spend money to enjoy the game it's not *really* free to play, and a lot of people also make that complaint.
Advertising *will* take a bit of elbow grease to get going, sure, and you're right, they could completely forgo step 2, but if they do, they're trading a revenue stream with no ceiling for one that won't go up unless the number of players in the game actually goes up.
I hope you haven't misunderstood me, this whole thing is a very barebones plan that the devs would probably have to tweak greatly to implement in their own fashion (one specifically tailored to SK). I accept that, and I realize that this probably won't happen, but as long the devs (hopefully) read the forums, a few ideas from someone that's played a few mmos (free ones, too) in their day would help.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 15:32
#16
That's the thing, people
That's the thing, people don't need to spend money to enjoy this game. As many players have attested it is entirely possible to reach a level (in a reasonable time frame) where you earn more crowns doing dungeons than you have to spend to pay for the energy cost. OOO may need to do more to ease new players into the game but they certainly don't need to do step 2.
"Advertising *will* take a bit of elbow grease to get going, sure, and you're right, they could completely forgo step 2, but if they do, they're trading a revenue stream with no ceiling for one that won't go up unless the number of players in the game actually goes up."
I have no idea what you are talking about here, as I see it advertising revenue is directly tied to how many people view the ad whereas there is no limit to the amount of money players can spend on the game. But your original argument hinges on the idea that advertising will offset the damage to OOO
s bottom line that step 2 will cause by earning OOO more money if they increase the population at the cost of lower CE sales. If you are saying the opposite though, that currently OOO's profits are tied to how many players there are, then it would make sense to implement step 2 IF it actually attracts new players. If that was the case I see no reason why OOO wouldn't have already done so.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 15:52
#17
RE: Xiax
OOO's current profits aren't necessarily tied to how many players there are, it's tied to how many people buy CE. Advertisement has nothing to do with purchasing CE, it has to do with people viewing the ad. Step 2 makes it easier for people to view the ads, which means that even the free players are technically paying for the game via viewing advertisements.
This is all assuming they can find people willing to advertise in their game, of course, but the point still stands. They can make things far more accessible to a wider range of players if that all important first few days of playing doesn't end with the disappointed, "If I don't pay money to play this game, my playtime will be severely limited."
Why would OOO be against a business model that makes their game more entertaining to a wider array of people?
Step 1 has to happen first, though, because they can't reduce any costs of CE before finding a new revenue stream, because if finding people willing to advertise takes longer than expected, they'll end up losing a lot of money on the deal.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 19:31
#18
You made me repeat myself.
This is terrible! Three Rings should use (subscription / cash shop / merchandising) instead!
This is terrible! Three Rings should use (subscription / cash shop / merchandising) instead!
The game has been in development for 4 years and Three Rings already has experience and success with this business model. In fact, the microcurrency model on Puzzle Pirates has been vastly more successful than the subscription model that is also offered on the same game. Spiral Knights has been developed with a business plan as well as a game design in mind, and complaints from non-revenue generating players are extremely unlikely to change a years-long business plan. Indeed - while I'm not privy to their internal affairs - it is quite possible that they are legally obligated to pursue the business model if it was the plan promised to investors.
The Crystal Energy Market and You
Let me add to that, I didn't even mention advertising in the Q part of the QA because advertising is the least profitable way for a free-to-play game to make money.
While the game certainly has issues and a poor long term outlook -at present-, that's because a) there are no tempting crown-sinks, only market fees sinking crowns and nobody sells CE to pay market fees. b) CE demand is -enormous- because of more than doubling the CE costs for crafting.
The obvious, but perhaps not long term best solution, is to roll back the CE crafting cost increase and roll in a materials/crowns crafting cost increase, at least double those costs. 5x materials costs and 10x crown costs wouldn't be unreasonable with CE costs rolled back. More CE would be sold to buy materials and crowns for crafting then and CE prices would drop. This doesn't mean less CE would be bought, as the amount of CE sunk into crafting and running depths decreases as the crown price for CE increases. (I don't guarantee that it would be the -same- rate of CE purchasing, just saying that depending on the balance struck it could be more, it could be less CE purchased for real money.) I'm sure doubling the CE costs of crafting didn't double the amount of CE purchased or sunk - I, and I'm sure others, simply became much more selective about what to craft and make sure to have some kind of UV before investing all that CE so it doesn't have to be done again.
Anyway, in CE/crown balance issues I compare Spiral Knights to Three Ring's flagship game, Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates, and suggest ways in which Spiral Knights could better live up to the free play with profit model it is based on.
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 19:30
#19
RE: Senshi
"Advertising is the lease profitable way for a free-to-play game to make money."
Interesting, what is this based off of?
I don't doubt that it's possible, I'm just wondering where this came from.
Also, I like your ideas of reducing crafting costs (a la step 2). You make a good point that increasing the costs didn't necessarily increase the purchase of CE (theoretically), the problem there is that we don't know that for sure. It's quite possible that OOO saw sales spike dramatically =(
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 19:44
#20
Well...
I haven't actually seen a study on profit models for free to play games or free online services, I'm basing it largely off the fact that advertising-model sites and games are just about universally low-budget affairs. I trust in human nature to believe that anyone with a product and the resources to figure out the best way to monetize it will do a good job at that figuring. Most successful game companies stick to a cash-shop model or a limited-content model that makes a free-to-play game really a thinly disguised subscription game. Little independent outfits that don't have the resources to set up a microcurrency transaction service use advertising and seldom grow big.
Of course, that's mostly hearsay - I don't have enough time to play that many games myself, (though I've seen that to some extent personally) plus, I have a very low tolerance for ad-driven services. Google has been very clever in keeping the advertising low key, but most advertising revenue driven services are incredibly annoying to me and I won't use them unless they have -really- great value, so I'm surely limiting my own sample. But it is something to consider - I'd probably quit spiral knights if it had ads. Oh, not in a dramatic foot-stomping 'remove the ads or I quit' way, just, a game with built in irritations like that I'll play less and less and then stop logging in and suddenly it'd be months without me being around. I'm not alone in that, so that too, is something to be considered in adopting any advertising driven model.
(Ah, some of that hearsay also comes from one of our forum participants who -does- seem to have had enough time to play almost every free to play game out there and posted fairly eloquently on the topic, unfortunately, I don't remember his name, only that his more widely experienced observations matched my narrow experience observations.)
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 20:52
#21
sigh
When I read "Advertise", I thought you meant like, advertise to your friends who have jobs and stuff and get them hooked enough to buy.
Then they can sell you CE.
;V
Tue, 06/28/2011 - 21:19
#22
RE: Senshi
Yeah, but SK has many places where an ad can pop up without actually causing an annoyance, such as when going down on an elevator. Not something that would require you to click out of, just a little thing that comes up instead of the usual loading screen. It certainly wouldn't be on the scale of advert annoyances like Youtube's ads.
step 1. this sounds good
step 2. decreasing energy gate costs increases the about of crowns on has and ultimately increases inflation. same with crafting but that also causes players to reach endgame more rapidly than OOO can churn out content. u give any group of players an alternative to paying with real money to get energy they will jump all over it (currently using the crowns into energy) mist tanks would be exploited by the masses and ultimately will hurt OOO
step 3. this is a given we really need sinks for the massive influx of crowns that happens with every day