Good point. Different alternative then: temporary mist tanks. They last 24 hours before poofing, new player gets one a day for a week.
low down energy prices! who is with me!
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 18:36
#252
Good point. Different
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 18:46
#253
If newbies get an advantage
If newbies get an advantage that's fine with me, they need it.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 18:48
#254
I keep mispelling your name
I keep mispelling your name because I dont' like you and I don't care to spell it correctly.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 18:54
#255
Good point. Different
Good point. Different alternative then: temporary mist tanks. They last 24 hours before poofing, new player gets one a day for a week.
I'm okay with this as a general concept. It doesn't break anything in the economy, really, especially because of the 24h limit.
But, I wouldn't suggest 3O do it until they have some data indicating that new players actually ARE leaving the game because they can't play as much as they'd like to, and that none of them are paying because of that instead. Remember, many people's reaction may be "I can't play anymore without paying? Well, I quit", but as long as a few (maybe 3-5%) of them instead react with "I can't play anymore without paying? Well, it's pretty cheap, and I am having fun, so I'll give 3O a little money to keep playing", then overall the system works. The F2P business model rides on the backs of those players that end up paying, whether they give a couple bucks to get started or a hundred to instantly catch up to the best players. If the 200 ME you get when you start the game turns out to be too limiting and no new players ever pay money because of it, then it's a good idea; but on the flipside, if you had 200 ME per day, maybe you wouldn't ever want to pay money, because you can play all you want for free.
You want the balance to be such that a lot of people can be almost satisfied with what they get for free. You want someone to play for an hour or two, and then look at the fact that they can't play anymore and drop in a few coins to play a little longer. If you can play all you want for free, why ever pay?
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 18:58
#256
If newbies get an advantage
If newbies get an advantage that's fine with me, they need it.
Why? This isn't real life. No one starves because they couldn't dive just one more level to get the crowns they need to pay for their food. No one is collecting crowns so they can pay for their expensive surgery. This is a video game. No one "needs" anything in a video game. No one is entitled to anything in a video game. It's a game. Newbies don't "need" any advantage. I didn't have an "advantage" when I started the game, and I somehow survived.
I keep mispelling your name because I dont' like you and I don't care to spell it correctly.
You only don't like me because you can't formulate a reasonable argument against what I am saying. You know I'm correct, you just refuse to admit it because it would mean admitting you aren't actually entitled to whatever you want.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:01
#257
Honestly
Honestly I don't think new players have any real problems either. Sure they might have to work harder but like... so what? T1 doesn't last long enough right now compared to how long T2 and T3 last.
I make the suggestion I did so people on both sides of the fence can come to some common grounds to agree with instead of this pointless and endless bickering about Energy prices. The ones arguing for the new players might have a good point. Maybe. Whether they do or not is irrelevant to me and Three Rings will decide. The ones arguing for lower Energy prices simply because they, personally, want it have no case. If I can separate the two that just makes this easier.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:08
#258
I make the suggestion I did
I make the suggestion I did so people on both sides of the fence can come to some common grounds to agree with instead of this pointless and endless bickering about Energy prices.
This is basically "The truth is somewhere in the middle". It's not true. There's no reason to come to some "common ground" here. Remember, we're talking about changes to an existing well-designed system that you, yourself, agree is not really broken. Just because some people are making arguments from entitlement and whining a lot, that doesn't mean you should give in.
It's like a little kid constantly asking for a box of twinkies when you know he's, I dunno, allergic to sugar. There's no "common ground" to come to - the answer has to be no. He doesn't have any valid reasons for getting any twinkies at all. Giving him a single twinkie instead of the whole box is not a valid compromise, because he shouldn't be getting any twinkies in the first place, and the only one who thinks he should get twinkies is him.
The ones arguing for the new players might have a good point.
But you yourself said that they don't. They're only framing their argument in terms of "new players" because of what you said - they have no case for why they personally should pay less for energy, so instead they claim "Think of the newbies!!!" (like "Think of the children!!!").
Also, you're right - they might have a good point. I'm still waiting for them to make it, though.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:17
#259
Yo Doreal, I kinda like you,
Yo Doreal, I kinda like you, you aren't all arrogant and high and mighty like this other guy.
Honestly, though, said person doesn't want to come to common ground because he likes the high prices and ripping off the newbies. He also like to alienate people oh um excuse me "non-paying" players from the game.
I'm pretty sure he could care less if all the non payers left, which sucks for him that's pretty much the majority of people playing.
His idea behind the well if the newbies see that they can't make it so they will pay concept, is complete daft.
If I were a newb and I seen this state of the economy I would try to get somewhere, and if I couldn't, I would quit and go elsewhere and take my friends with me.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:17
#260
To anisoptera
And that is why I'm having this discussion over here in General instead of Suggestions.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:31
#261
Yo Doreal, I kinda like you,
Yo Doreal, I kinda like you, you aren't all arrogant and high and mighty like this other guy.
I like you because you are suggesting that I may have a point.
Also, not a guy. Fixing your pronouns in the other quotes.
Honestly, though, said person doesn't want to come to common ground because she likes the high prices and ripping off the newbies. She also like to alienate people oh um excuse me "non-paying" players from the game.
I don't want to come to "common ground" because that's ridiculous. You can make this argument forever. So let's say that we implement some minor "solution" to the nonexistent problem. Now someone argues this exact same thing you keep arguing - I'm entitled to everything for free!!! Now what? Do we attempt to find common ground again?
There is no reason to find "common ground" when one person is so completely wrong. The truth is not somewhere in the middle. Giving ground in the interest of finding "common ground" is a good way to find yourself on the wrong side.
I'm pretty sure she could care less if all the non payers left, which sucks for her that's pretty much the majority of people playing.
No, I couldn't care less. I don't care because they contribute nothing to the game. If all the non-paying players left, 3O's profit margins would skyrocket and they could devote more money to improving the game.
I don't really care if they play either, because they provide a market for me to play with. I don't care either way.
The thing is, I don't assume that because I don't like something, everyone else must hate it too. It's very presumptuous to say that everyone will leave because you don't like how something works. At most you can say that YOU will leave if that thing doesn't change.
Her idea behind the well if the newbies see that they can't make it so they will pay concept, is complete daft.
It's also the entire basis of every F2P game in existence. Zynga has built a multi-billion dollar business on this exact concept. Perhaps you've heard of them.
If I were a newb and I seen this state of the economy I would try to get somewhere, and if I couldn't, I would quit and go elsewhere and take my friends with me.
That's you. You are not everyone. This is not a valid argument. My argument is backed up by billions of dollars in real money being made by companies with this exact business model. Your argument is backed up by "Well, if I was a newbie and I saw this state, I'd quit." which, while it MIGHT be true, also might not. You didn't quit the first time. You haven't quit yet. Why should I believe that that would be different if you had just joined?
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:42
#262
Hey, I'm new!
Look. I won't say that I'm an amazing gamer, and I haven't read the whole thread, but I should say: I just started playing a few days ago, I use up every drop of energy every day, and
One: I can't yet solo to depth eight. I've stopped playing with parties, as it seems that every person who plays tier one can't read the signs that say "this section of the level is notably more difficult than the rest of the level", and insist upon driving us all to repeated resurrections, wasting all of our energy. I got tired of this very quickly; now I do nothing but solo. Regardless, I cannot make it to depth eight.
tl;dr: I can't run the entirety of tier one.
Two: 100 energy does not in any way pay itself back. It doesn't even pay itself back half way. I might buy 100 CE for 3500 crowns, and get back maybe 1500 through exploration. This is without doing any alchemy for the entire day. Right now, this week, the energy system is a serious wall between me, and making even Tier two, let alone Tier three.
tl;dr: CE is barely worth its current price, right now.
I don't have a solution, but I have a little info on the experience of the new gamer, right now. I do, however, have a suggestion, that the elevator costs be trimmed. If they were trimmed, even by only two or three points of energy, it would be less of a detrimental barrier.
That's all.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:49
#263
They could be trimmed and you
They could be trimmed and you could play for free.
Or you could pay money and play as much as you want.
Again: the objective of the game for 3O is not for you to be able to play eternally for free as much as you want from day 1. They want you to pay them money.
If you aren't good enough at the game to get down to level 8 then get better, buy more energy, get better gear. The game should not be handed to you on a silver platter. It would be incredibly boring.
Also, I'm sure you'll be in T2 by the end of next week if you play through your free energy every day (and don't buy CE if you don't make the money back!) Once you're in T2 you'll find it a lot easier to self-sustain.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:53
#264
...
I don't *have* money to pay with. There's not much of a choice there. However, I agree that if the game were handed to me on a silver platter, it would be quite terrible; the colors wouldn't match in the slightest.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 19:55
#265
OH, so your a chick, my
OH, so your a chick, my apologies.
"I don't want to come to "common ground" because that's ridiculous. You can make this argument forever. So let's say that we implement some minor "solution" to the nonexistent problem. Now someone argues this exact same thing you keep arguing - I'm entitled to everything for free!!! Now what? Do we attempt to find common ground again?
There is no reason to find "common ground" when one person is so completely wrong. The truth is not somewhere in the middle. Giving ground in the interest of finding "common ground" is a good way to find yourself on the wrong side."
This proves it right here, you don't care to come to a common ground. Also, I never said I wanted everything for free, I just said I want what was marketed to me and lower prices. I don't mind paying crowns at all, it's just getting to the point where it's going to be too damn high even for T2 people.
"No, I couldn't care less. I don't care because they contribute nothing to the game. If all the non-paying players left, 3O's profit margins would skyrocket and they could devote more money to improving the game. I don't really care if they play either, because they provide a market for me to play with. I don't care either way. The thing is, I don't assume that because I don't like something, everyone else must hate it too. It's very presumptuous to say that everyone will leave because you don't like how something works. At most you can say that YOU will leave if that thing doesn't change."
OH boy, now you did it...so we contribute nothing eh? Really? REALLY? Um, no, we contribute far more then you think we do. Who do you think is in your parties or your guilds? What about on your friends list? Who do you think sells you things from in game shops other then the vendors? There are MORE non-paying players then paying ones. Honestly, that statement is the most ignorant that has come out of your mouth yet. I vote that all non playing players take a week's holiday and you can see just how much of a "contribution" we make.
"It's also the entire basis of every F2P game in existence. Zynga has built a multi-billion dollar business on this exact concept. Perhaps you've heard of them."
Wow...you brought Zynga into this..LOL. Newsflash, Zynga sucks!
"That's you. You are not everyone. This is not a valid argument. My argument is backed up by billions of dollars in real money being made by companies with this exact business model. Your argument is backed up by "Well, if I was a newbie and I saw this state, I'd quit." which, while it MIGHT be true, also might not. You didn't quit the first time. You haven't quit yet. Why should I believe that that would be different if you had just joined?"
I didn't quit the first time because when I got in they were very very cheap, I have already agreed that 3000-3500CR for 100CE is more then reasonable but no more. You seem to be mistaking me for someone that is entirely new and foreign to these business models.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:38
#266
["No, I couldn't care less. I
["No, I couldn't care less. I don't care because they contribute nothing to the game. If all the non-paying players left, 3O's profit margins would skyrocket and they could devote more money to improving the game."]
Well, except that if a lot of the F2P players left, the community would shrink as a whole, which means less people to play/trade/interact with.
And that sucks for everyone. Not just the F2P players. Community is a big part of what makes online games fun.
Honestly, just having an auction house would prevent mat/CE prices from inflating too high, because players would be able to post competitive prices and everyone else would be able to see it, whereas now, you only see the prices that are up in trade at the moment.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:56
#267
How would the profit margins
How would the profit margins skyrocket if free players left? The variable costs for a player are minimal and their net profits would probably drop too, since cash users would no longer be subsidizing the energy habits of free players.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:58
#268
Adding a market...
Now that will open up a completely new issue. While I'm all in favor of it, I would see an open market for materials actually driving up the CE cost even more. I know I, at least, have a hoard of materials I have no use for, but am not willing to put forth the effort to try and sell them. give me an easy open market like we have with energy for them? I'll dump'em out for what I see as acceptable prices (generally lower than most people, from what I've seen in the trade channels) to get some money back and buy more energy. If other people do this as well, we'll see an increased capacity to buy CE, which will inflate prices. Things will hit a peak, then stabilize once that has happened, but I would bet the peak would be higher, as you now can more easily turn materials into more crowns.
Material prices would certainly drop, however. That would be lovely, I suppose, but I have little interest in buying materials as of yet.
Oh, and not all free players have any interest in leaving this game just because energy is getting more in line with what I would expect it to cost. I'll just play less per day, and find other (probably more productive) things to do in the extra free time. Nor would I tell friends that it's a great game to play all day, but I am happy to recommend this game to friends who have less time to play than I, or who at least are patient enough to allow for playing a game in spurts instead of long sessions.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:13
#269
Sigh, and here I go.This
Sigh, and here I go.
This proves it right here, you don't care to come to a common ground.
Yes. That's what I said. That's because the only rational "common ground" is the one I'm standing on. In other words, the thing that already exists.
I never said I wanted everything for free, I just said I want what was marketed to me and lower prices.
Ooh, I love it when you do this to me, except you don't do it right. Here, let me show you how it's done.
I am entitled to play the game as much as I want for free because it is free because that is how it is marketed.
Sounds a lot like you want everything for free.
I don't mind paying crowns at all
Crowns are free. 3O cannot pay their server bills with crowns.
I vote that all non playing players take a week's holiday and you can see just how much of a "contribution" we make.
Yes, please do. You first. Don't check back.
Wow...you brought Zynga into this..LOL. Newsflash, Zynga sucks!
Newsflash, Zynga is valued at over $10 billion. They made some $400 million last year. They have the highest profit share of the entire gaming industry.
So yeah. I guess they suck. I wish I sucked that much.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:26
#270
Dropping this here anyway.
Dropping this here anyway. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/4629
I'll have to remake it and put it somewhere else so that link may die (and also avoid using the comparison to Facebook next time) but seriously, a middle solution to all this is to just have a LOT of friends, guild or no guild. Tier 1 or above. If you can reliably skip the "bad" levels by following your "friends" you can save a lot of energy since many KNOW the latter half of a Tier gives way more profit than the first half. Also, people who do recipe runs can benefit from this as well if they could just look out for players traveling right before Basil. Same with people looking for Non Jelly King heat, if you look out for people who may be on arena zones, that'd make your life easier.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:12
#271
No, the common ground that is
No, the common ground that is already here is not the only one that can exist, it's just the only one you want to exist.
Stop twisting my words.
I wont give you that satisfaction, I will forever be here to haunt you.
Just because they have money doesn't mean their games don't suck and aren't designed to trick their players into money sinks.
I'm sick and tired of arguing with you. You are wrong, several others have refuted your statements including myself, and you are irrational and illogical.
The games economy is slowly breaking down and it needs fixed, or it's going to crash just like the stock market did.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:38
#272
I'm
With ya
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:45
#273
No, the common ground that is
No, the common ground that is already here is not the only one that can exist, it's just the only one you want to exist.
Wrong.
Stop twisting my words.
HELP MOM SHE'S DOING THE THING I DID TO HER EXCEPT SHE'S DOING IT BETTER MAKE HER STOP
I wont give you that satisfaction, I will forever be here to haunt you.
Ok.
Just because they have money doesn't mean their games don't suck and aren't designed to trick their players into money sinks.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I'm sick and tired of arguing with you. You are wrong, several others have refuted your statements including myself, and you are irrational and illogical.
If you're so sick and tired of arguing with me why do you keep doing it? Why did you make that promise of forever haunting me?
No one has refuted my statements. Saying "No you're wrong" is not a refutation. Nor is making wild claims without any evidence to back them up. Also, reality is on my side. The game already works the way it does. You're the one that has to provide a reasonable basis for changing the game and you haven't done it.
The games economy is slowly breaking down and it needs fixed, or it's going to crash just like the stock market did.
Here's another example of one of your amazing baseless claims. How is the industry breaking down? How is it going to crash? There is more and more money being pumped through the games industry every year. The iOS devices are making an ENORMOUS contribution. So are the social casual F2P games that Zynga runs.
You may hate it, but people appear to be willing to pay for it. And money talks. Who would ever cater to an audience of people like you? What a profitable group!
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:55
#274
And now, a change of
And now, a change of pace:
While I think that the complaints in this thread are mostly way over-stated and heavily entitled, I will say that I can see a reason for Three Rings to keep it *possible*, if only just *barely*, for players at all tiers to earn just enough on a run to re-buy for that run and go again, with even a tiny profit on the side:
It gives people an 'elite status' to aim for - the coveted "Man, he's so good, he plays all day for free!"
I don't mean "it should be easy". I mean it should be really, really hard to do. But there, just do-able? That's a motivator to keep coming back and training hard, maybe even (for players who aren't there yet) to throw a few bucks in to get closer to that goal.
Just something I'm chewing on; I think there's a point, there.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:08
#275
Yes, but 3O doesn't need to
Yes, but 3O doesn't need to do anything to make that happen. As long as the economy is well designed, that will emerge naturally, as it already does; the reason CE prices are rising so quickly is that the average amount of money someone is able to make from CE is rising at that rate as well. When CE costs match the theoretical maximum someone can gain from that CE, it will stop rising.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:10
#276
Levithan (I'm not sure how to
Levithan (I'm not sure how to quote, so uh...yeah, responding to a distinctly earlier post of yours <.<):
I disagree with your interpretation of the intent of the game.
I think the thing with a lot of free to play games distills to this: If you play free, you're going to take the long way and be less powerful. Someone that's willing to put in some money is going to reach the next level of power much faster than you, with much less hassle and many more options.
To me, that's the point. Both of you can technically play all day (the free guy by buying CE on the market and making a small, but decent profit on the side; the pay guy by blowing through dungeons with his fairly large supply of CE), but the difference is that the free guy is making 1-3k a run for Tier 2 and buying a recipe (if he gets lucky, mind) every 6-12 runs, while the pay guy has much more leeway to experiment and can pack a greater variety of weapons/some trinkets to boost performance/etc.
That's already in the system, more or less. I had a friend who started later, reached 2* equipment, decided to put in some money, and blew past me well into Tier 3 over a week ago. At the moment, I'm still saving for 4* equipment, despite playing ~4-6 hours a night for ~1.5 weeks since I hit tier 2. This is taking into account the fact that with lower energy prices, I was making ~twice my investment cost in CE back per run.
The point is, paying already gives you one hell of a head start on everything. IMO, that's the whole point of being willing to put money in (and the 2-3 F2P games I've played in the past more or less use the same system).
Obviously, I don't have large amounts of experience with F2P, just stating what I think the overall distinction is (as opposed to the whole 'you can play one hour, but pay for more' paradigm, I'm suggesting it's more of a 'you can play a fair amount, but it takes you 10x longer to get one recipe than it'll take someone who paid money').
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:15
#277
Not necessarily.
If the
Not necessarily.
If the number of "play casually, and buy energy every now and again" players is large enough (and it'd have to be huge), they could actually "squeeze out" that elite group. I have no idea at all how large that number presently is compared to the paying players, and I don't think we'll ever know.
In addition, there may be a minimum level of gear & tier where this becomes possible, rather than being possible in general.
I don't believe that any total 'squeeze out' has happened *yet*. But I do think that the people who were comfortably playing in that style before are now under heavy pressure, and we'll find out the conditions under which it's viable, if at all, in the near future.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:15
#278
Arguably, it's going to stop
Arguably, it's going to stop below the theoretical maximum, but not much below.
There's two reasons: 1. If all you get from a run is the ability to do another run with no profit, there's no reason to get CE to do another run. Sure, there's mist energy, but given that that's once a day, it'd remove one major demand for CE (that is, to do more runs).
2. If you're selling CE, you want crowns. It's possible you may even need crowns, for whatever reason. Because of that, you're not always going to get the full value of the CE back (converting CE to liquid assets, as it were), unless you're willing to wait for long periods of time. This makes the assumption that people selling CE need crowns in a reasonably timely fashion, though (e.g. hit a recipe shop, found out they were short money/going on a recipe run, but short money, etc), and so will have to compromise (usually) for less than the optimal value.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:21
#279
Alkanshel;
You could be
Alkanshel;
You could be right. My impression of the designer's intent is just that: An impression, albeit a pretty strong one. I've posted it as clearly as I could, and I think it's a solid view.
And you've posted your thoughts, which seem fair enough; you could be right about what they intended. I'm not telepathically linked to Three Rings, sadly, and I doubt anyone else in-thread is, either.
The ball, of course, is over there with Three Rings now, to either correct it, or leave it as it lies. I'm sure they're very aware of the beef these folks have.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 05:52
#280
Funny little note:
It's actually better for business for 3O to do some screwy stuff behind the scenes that shifts the Crown price of CE down.
Why? Because then someone who wants to buy their way through the game needs to buy more of it to get where they want to be.
Funny how that works.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 07:43
#281
@Anis
"You're arguing semantics of the definition of this term. Now that I've dismissed your argument as 'semantics' I will argue semantics. I'm obviously using my own definition for 'casual' instead of what most people would use. I define 'casual' as a number that includes how much I would like to play this game for free. Also, I am high as a kite.
Crowns eventually become useless and there will be more and more CE floating around which will inflate the prices.
Inflate what prices? CE has real money value. It doesn't matter how much CE is floating around, because it always costs the same amount of money. 1 CE is always worth $.003. It's worth $.003 if there is 100 CE in the world or 1 million. Diving down a level always costs 10 CE. Recipes always cost the same. Alchemy prices are always the same.
I was not arguing semantics at all. You twisted my words to suit your arguments and completely avoided what I even said; which was this; which I will break down for you so you are incapable of trolling your way out.
This game is designed to be played casually.
What does casual mean?
–adjective
1.
happening by chance; fortuitous: a casual meeting.
2.
without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark.
3.
seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned: a casual, nonchalant air.
4.
appropriate for wear or use on informal occasions; not dressy: casual clothes; casual wear.
5.
irregular; occasional: a casual visitor.
6.
accidental: a casual mishap.
7.
Obsolete . uncertain.
The concept of casual applies to games in that you are not dedicated to the game, or you do not sit for the majority (or all) of most days interacting with it. SK is designed as a casual game, because it is. There is nothing to do that can keep someone playing for ~12 hours every day. The game simply does not have content. Sure there are exceptions to the rule and people who play the game for "social status" within the community and simply play to be the best or to be noticed. But those are for all intents and purposes irrelevant to your discussion and rhetoric.
You don't have to farm your crafting skill, because there isn't one. You don't have to farm for weeks to get a material because it really only takes a few hours to get it, assuming you have an appropriate gate available. You don't have stats to level up, or to allocate. You don't have skills you have to build properly in order to be a successful player; this is a mouse-click game. You don't have a story line to follow (quests). The game does not have the content to harbor a large population of dedicated or hardcore gamers. Period.
But you can't play unless you drop a good chunk of cash (and with every passing day that chunk of necessary cash gets larger), or grind just to be able to play more. Eventually us paying players will stop paying. While the game is designed for casual play; the systems, monetary or otherwise, absolutely prevent it.
It's getting to the point where a new player won't even be able to play casually. They'll be able to play for an hour before their mist depletes and that's that. Maybe an hour? Which is stretching the boundaries of "casual", to an extreme. And brings it to a point where the game isn't even fun to play and the player will likely not proceed to play any longer whereas that player might have been a paying customer has he/she been able to get into the game and enjoy themselves more.
And what you seemed to have missed over and over is that I AM A PAYING PLAYER, I PAY REAL US CURRENCY FOR CRYSTAL ENERGY.
Can you see it better now? I know all those other letters all over your screen that you choose not to read get in the way of you trying to skim through posts.
The game, the mechanics, the content are designed for casual play. Currently and previously there was nothing forcing anyone to pay real money for the game. It was solely because you were lazy and wanted to get ahead faster. However it is quickly becoming apparent that the unmoderated economy run by twelve year olds and the lack of a sink for crowns is forcing the end-game monetary system to be used exclusively for CE. Which is forcing out any other players (see; potential customers) and is a mechanism that will inevitably drive away all current customers.
How much it costs to buy CE (real money)is irrelevant. Because people are going to be charging for items and mats in CE and will not be accepting crowns. What purpose do crowns serve? Nothing. Especially not to a paying player. And any needed crowns for crafting or anything else are gotten by default from simply playing the game.
As more and more people convert to a CE economy people will charge MORE CE FOR THEIR WARES. Whether or not the CE prices in real money is changing or not is IRRELEVANT TO THIS WHOLE THREAD..
The point is that you will inevitably have to spend more and more real money as a paying player once more and more other paying players reach end-game. And you won't be able to play while having fun without paying real money. Which is NOT a good business model if they want fresh customers.
And the large point you seem to be missing is this.
3O doesn't care about you. In fact the more people that play and like the game and are willing to spend money the better. They WANT YOU to pay for other players to entice them to also begin paying.
You are the only one that cares about you. So I'm glad you're so passionate about it, because no one else is.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 08:39
#282
/thread
I tried to say those
/thread
I tried to say those things but I guess I just didn't have the patience, time, or heh energy.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:53
#283
Your assumption is that the
Your assumption is that the economy is well designed. It is not.
I started playing last week where prices for ce was 3000-3200. A week later its now 4200-4700 peak. Right now it is leveled at 4200. Now in only a weeks time, prices have jumped in crowns roughly 30%; in the past week prices on most mat dropped roughly 20%-50%. That is a sign that the economy isn't designed well.
Also when I started going into a party in t1 was horrible. You do not make enough back in mats/cr to cover the run. The only way was to solo for all the mats. Before selling mats that were lower tier was decent. You might get lucky and sell some items to get that 2* item to make it past the first tier.
Some ways to fix this (other forum ideas) is to increase the amount of lower tier mats required to craft higher tier items and more cr sinks (of course with added benefits). It would be a win win situation for both OOO, new players and older players. I was going to drop some money but with the market so unstable and limited content, I'm holding off my investment.
I think a good idea is to lower the UV % success rate for lower tier items, and raise it for higher tier items (with the higher required lower tier mats). This would help stop top tier people from mass crafting lower tier items and flooding lower tier market. ** just throwing it out there, need further checking.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 14:26
#284
I've had a fun time today
I've had a fun time today randomly joining the parties of guild mates and new friends so I could just skip to the second half of the jelly king stratum ^^ Lots of energy earned (and spent on making my 4 star items). And I think I'll get back to doing that now~ Spread the love, add more peeps XD
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 15:48
#285
Assumption that Economy is designed well is right
The reason that the price of energy is even increasing is because there is a huge demand for energy but not enough supply to meet the demand. In a free market economy (i.e. no price ceilings or floors), if the quantity demanded is greater than the quantity supplied, then the price will increase until it reached an equilibrium. If the quantity demanded is less than the quantity supplied, then price will naturally fall. It's a pretty simple economic concept actually.
And there really isn't a design I suppose. It's just that the demand for energy is high and supply for energy is low (hence increasing prices), and demand for materials is low and the supply of materials is high (hence decreasing prices). Materials is a tricky economy because they are inherently free. The market exists because its easier for most to buy them.
Also the game itself is basically a casual game. The point of limiting energy was to limit free-riders' play time. From the side of the company, I really see no problem with increasing energy prices. I forces the more desperate people to pay to play, which is good for the company. If you really like the game, you'll pay real money to play. I mean, I may pay to support the developers. Three rings is doing a good job with keeping up with user feedback. Maybe they'll somehow cap the price of energy as some point, but for now, to prevent too many free-riders, they're probably just gonna let the price rise.
I don't know about the materials market, nor do I really care about it either. The developers did not make something intended for materials so its not a big deal. If you want prices to rise, increase the demand or decrease the supply of materials. A similar concept applies for energy.
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 13:55
#286
Assumptions
@Dashiva:
"This game is designed to be played casually."
It doesnt look like it to me. At all. If there were not a UV system in place, perhaps. If there were no crafting system at all, perhaps. If people were not supposed to buy energy to play more, perhaps.
As it stands SK is about as casual as Vindictus. (just that that got an auction house, which allows casual players to sell items)
Just wanted to point that out before someone else tries to get this even more off topic.
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 13:45
#287
Thanks Tive for bringing this
Thanks Tive for bringing this back to page 1. Can we let this thing die already?
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 13:58
#288
UNOFFICIALLY LOCKED
UNOFFICIALLY LOCKED
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:01
#289
*swings by with a Keyblade*
*swings by with a Keyblade* THREAD UNLOCKED MWAAHAHA!
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:45
#290
Just wanted to point that out
Just wanted to point that out before someone else tries to get this even more off topic.
Yeah, sure, just make an off topic post to a 3 day old thread as some sort of way to get a point in before it gets "even more off topic".
No one was trying to do anything of the sort. No one was even posting in this thread. Why are people bumping crappy old threads? I worked so hard to get them all derailed into oblivion. :(
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 15:35
#291
It's called not noticing the
It's called not noticing the date.
And I actually wanted to imply my post was offtopic too, just less offtopic than what someone could have made out of it!
And you really know how to make energy discussion threads worthwhile~
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 17:30
#292
Next post is Sparta!
Next post is Sparta!
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 18:02
#293
It's called not noticing the
It's called not noticing the date.
And the fact that it was on page 3?
And you really know how to make energy discussion threads worthwhile~
No. I don't. No one does. Because energy discussion threads are worthless by definition and there is no saving them.
Also, this is Sparta, etc.
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 18:17
#294
:-( I feel that was
:-( I feel that was unenthusiastic
Mon, 04/25/2011 - 18:18
#295
It's called not noticing the
It's called not noticing the date.
And I actually wanted to imply my post was offtopic too, just less offtopic than what someone could have made out of it!
Perhaps you should learn to read then and the pay EF attention.
Ugh...
Stop sucking up.
Let it die folks, let it DIE
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 00:45
#296
damn prices
its over 6k now we need to refuse ce till ppl get it that they need to sell for cheaper
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 01:10
#297
This was actually a good
This was actually a good bump.
Look at the woe-crying at 3k.
lol
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 04:48
#298
damn with CE @ 3k one could
damn with CE @ 3k one could play all day and still have a profit to buy other stuff...
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 04:52
#299
Hahaha, wow...3000CR, I
Hahaha, wow...3000CR, I remember when energy was that cheap...It's like a dream compared to today's 6.5K...
Wed, 06/08/2011 - 05:50
#300
6k or 7k is cheap to me.
6k or 7k is cheap to me.
Actually I meant the in game crowns to energy market, not the real cash to energy prices. So someone starting off could buy 100 Energy for 2k Crowns for the first week, maybe three times a day, before being put into the player controlled market.
This is even worse. It introduces inflation into the CE economy. Right now, every single piece of CE can be traced back to someone spending $.003. CE can't inflate ever, because it has a real money value. You are suggesting that 3O basically spawn 2100 CE for every new player. You also would end up creating a situation where new players will be preyed upon by older players to use their "free" CE credits. I know I'd give a new player 7500CR for their day's allotment of 300CE.