Spiral Knights - Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.

Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.

81 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 09:21

Andraxcore

I think this is probably the biggest annoyance in the game and I'm not the only one who thinks that. Every review out there notes that the energy system is flawed and needs fixing. Please Three Rings DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE YOU FIX THE ENERGY SYSTEM.

So what is the problem? There's so many things to mention, It wont be defined in one sentence. The energy bars recharge at a rate of about one mist per thirteen minutes. In a day, you will recharge enough mist to play for about only TWO hours. Most non-casual players play for at least four hours. Active players would play for at least six hours.

Lets face it e- prices are too expensive.

10 e- to go down any non-waiting room/clockworks terminal/sub-town in any tier.
New players would usually want to explore the new world they have come to as much as they can to get a good feel of what they are about to spend "hours" in, this limiting energy system would understandably would make them turn away.
2, 5, and 10 e- to revive you or an ally for the FIRST time in clockworks, it doubles after each revive making it even more annoying than it already is.
200 e- to unbind a two star item, 600 e- to unbind a three star item, 1800 e- to unbind a four star item, 4000 e- to unbind a four star item. The binding system itself is also flawed but i won't talk too much about it since that would be off topic.
I have no qualms about solely the e- cost to craft, it seems about right.

Now lets take a look at the energy through a spender's perspective. A usual gamer that spends 15 dollars a month can access pretty much anything in the game. In spiral knights 15 dollars would give you just about 5200 ce. That would give you just about 105 hours of gameplay(100ce=2hr) per month, without crafting, buying upgrades, unbinding, opening gates, etc. Talk about value for your money.

So What SHOULD Three Rings Do?
Three rings should sit down, take this seriously, and consider and discuss which of the following is the best course of action.

Lower CE prices strategically- at least lower them for elevators so we can have a longer playtime.
Increase Mist Regeneration- Might not be a good suggestion as that would understandably decrease your sales. But still possible to. If you do, you might as well make it 100 mist per 12 hours.
Drop Mist In Clockworks- Might sound implausible or even outrageous but if you consider it, it could be a potentially good idea. I don't mean replace other potential drops with mist, I mean completely add it. Maybe in the form of blue heat or mini mist tanks. Also adding mist tanks to the prize wheel would be good.
Give MORE CE per Dollar- I'm serious, I don't think it's worth buying roughly four days worth of play every month when I can pay the same amount elsewhere to access all the features in a bigger non browser based game for the entire month. It won't be a loss for you because even more players would buy it if it become worth buying.

Also you need to rush your content making after(not if) you do this because the players would progress faster.

*e- stands for energy, just thought i'd shorten your read.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 09:31

Glowing-Ember

Ugh.

Another one?

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 09:40

Andraxcore

Well if there's that much

Well if there's that much threads about this then it must be a real problem. I dont care either way, i'm halfway through downloading forsaken worlds, limited gameplay is gonna be a myth.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 09:44

Glowing-Ember

k, great.

I'll be running on free CE for many more hours a day than two.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 09:47

Kwizzy

In spiral knights 15 dollars

In spiral knights 15 dollars would give you just about 5200 ce. That would give you just about 105 hours of gameplay(100ce=2hr) per month, without crafting, buying upgrades, unbinding, opening gates, etc. Talk about value for your money.

2 hours of great entertainment for a quarter? They sure are generous. Back when I started playing videogames a quarter lasted us a whole minute at the arcades. And new games were $90 ($8000 in today's money) on the Super Ninjimbo... times sure have changed.

In a day, you will recharge enough mist to play for about only TWO hours. Most non-casual players play for at least four hours. Active players would play for at least six hours.

I don't want to sound rude, but please take a look at olganon.org. If you're playing for six hours a day & all your friends do too you guys might be missing out on something else life has to offer. Moderation and patience are key in Spiral Knights - if you can wait, everything is free or cheaper

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 10:04

Andraxcore

@kwizzy I dont want to sound

@kwizzy I dont want to sound rude but you sure suck at video games :P. However that's a different situation. I wouldnt exactly call SK great either. There's alot of free to play games that are arguably better than SK. Ones that you can play for hours and don't immediately feel the need to spend money.

Being a lively outgoing person is not relevant. Our discussion is about playing, not having a life. You can lecture me about that if we're in fat losers anonymous but I dont see how that would be relevant otherwise.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 11:05

Elpeo-Kasshu

To be fair

This is a game the is COMPLETELY FREE TO PLAY. No premium account necessary to get access to everything, buying energy with real money. I didn't buy energy until all my gear was at least 4*, it took a while (3 months to be exact) but I didn't "Immediately feel the need to spend money". I actually kind of like the energy system because your energy will be completely recharged by the time you get a chance to log on if you have a schedule and only have time around that time to goof of around that time of day. Besides, two hours a day is enough for people, they don't have 1/4th of a day to play a video game that's just silly. Like Kwizzy said, moderation and patience is key. I will agree that the binding system is pretty sneaky and mist tanks would be a good addition to the prize wheel (mini mist tanks).

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 11:06

Siczo

try efficient runs

Really all you have to do is manage your runs well. If youre not happy with 2hrs a day, spend the ce u made on new runs, making slightly more than enough for another 100ce with 20ce ( for t2 ) to spare. Otherwise, just pay the price they set, or maybe just try and be patient perhaps

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 12:33

Effrul

Hang on a second

"In a day, you will recharge enough mist to play for about only TWO hours. Most non-casual players play for at least four hours. Active players would play for at least six hours."

Who the merry hell has time to play videogames for six hours a day? Do you people not have jobs? School? Friends? Sleep? You realise that you're describing playing Spiral Knights for a solid quarter of every single day? Are you for $@%£ing real?

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 12:57

Lolreft

Read this.

Theres a little thing, Energy stops the servers from becoming overcrowded and explode.
If there was no energy bar, the spiral knights server might explode! This is a free to play game with over 1 million people logging on every couple of seconds. They're main source of money (as i think) is people purchasing crystal energy. But the prices for some of the power ups could be lower, i agree with that,
1 Silver Key = 750 Energy
Should be around 250 Energy in my words.

I am somewhat neutral on this whole energy thing.
And im happy to stay off the game for my Mist energy to recharge.

Dont want to pay real money? Buy it for around 5,000 - 6,000 Crowns what can be EASILY earned.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 13:00

#10

Orangeo

Lolreft, I'd like to re-type

Lolreft, I'd like to re-type a long long essay I made explaining how silver key prices helped free players, but I'm too lazy. It's around here somewhere, go looking for it. Good point on the servers, never saw it that way.

I'm sure this intire game is a goverment plot to get Andraxcore to stop playing 6hrs a day. We need jessie ventura (CHALLANGE ACCEPTED).

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 13:16

#11

Starlinvf

Warning: Wall of text

Two things I want to point out off the bat.
1. Why are threads labeled "Please Read" usually have the worst structured arguments either for or against something.
2. The problem is rooted in huge misconceptions about the energy system as a whole.

Two of the biggest misconceptions is elevator costs, and CE as a trade unit. People always cite the crown returns of a run as a reason CE need to be cheaper... but almost never account for the fact that CE can only be brought into the market one way..... cash. CE resellers are the life blood of the economy, the clockworks, pretty much the entire game. If the CE/cr exchange tips too far against them, people won't want to sell CE and literally bring activity to a standstill for all the free players. The free players being the core of item trade (which is how they turn a profit), will further focus CE toward clockwork runs to find materials and recipes. (/tangent)

Anyway.... back to what I was getting at. The elevator costs and ability to trade CE is an attempt to reinvent the deeply rooted concept of subscriptions and seamlessly blend it into a micro transaction system. Up until recently, both systems were mutually exclusive, and each had significant pros and cons to the operators.

A subscription model provides predictable revenue, and could provide sizable profit margins if the game is popular enough. This makes it a natural choice for large operators due to the massive initial investment for both development and startup costs of the servers. However, it does create a barrier for entry by treating the game as a service, and requiring a paid commitment in the form of a subscription charge. And much like Cell phone carriers, they typically offer incentives for a longer term of commitment to help further secure that predictable revenue. Many systems now also include DLC/expansions as a way to cover content development costs without cutting into the returns from subscriptions.

Microtransaction systems often work in the exact opposite way. They remove the barrier for entry by letting players get in for free, and recoup the cost of operation and development by finding ways to get players to spend real money for some kind of in-game benefit. This is very helpful for smaller companies reach a much wider audience, that would otherwise be leery paying up front to an unrecognized, and completely untested brand name. However, being optional, the revenue stream is unstable and prone to degrade over time as veteran players become largely self sufficient. To help generate sales, there is usually a prime consumable that plays a huge role in character progression, creating player dependency on the cash shop. They then coax irregular spenders into buying by offering special sales or promotions, which usually makes up the bulk of their earnings for the quarter.

Spiral Knights attempts to combine both of these using one form of in-game currency (energy) that provides access to both playtime, and optional premium content at the player's discretion. By simplifying the cash shop model, and making the currency tradeable, they enable a great deal of flexibility for the players while still keeping a level of dependency needed to stay funded. Elevator costs represent a usage fee for the game, and unlike flat subscriptions, the cost to the player in a run is heavily influenced by the choices they make. Mist energy exist to enable free players to participate in the game and its markets, removing the initial barrier. Crowns serve as the primary currency for basic in-game trading, and doubles as an intermediary between CE and the rest of the trade market. When combined this way, it creates a rather unique situation where your essentially paying based on level of activity, and not directly based on character progression. As an added bonus, the market is setup in a way that free players can alternatively "pay for themselves" by positively contributing to the game economy as whole. This way, paid players support the company by buying CE, and free players support the game by supporting the economy. Its actually pretty fair when you think about it. (price arguments are another issue though)

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 18:32

#12

Cassiusbenard

Seriously?

Orginally posted by Andraxcore
------------
Drop Mist In Clockworks- Might sound implausible or even outrageous but if you consider it, it could be a potentially good idea. I don't mean replace other potential drops with mist, I mean completely add it. Maybe in the form of blue heat or mini mist tanks. Also adding mist tanks to the prize wheel would be good.
------------

The clockworks does drop energy, it's called your mist energy.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 19:22

#13

Trihelix

I dont want to sound rude but

I dont want to sound rude but you sure suck at video games :P.

You're saying this... as the guy complaining that he can only get 2 hours-a-day out of his mist? In the words of one of my friends, "I paid for some CE... then I learned how to play the game." Seriously. 100 Mist Energy on a veteran player goes quite a lot farther than it would on a new player.

On another note, free players do not deserve anything. You talk like Three Rings is in the wrong for charging you absolutely nothing for 14 hrs/week. A skilled There are current generation console games that costs $60+ and give this much playtime total. If CE were as easy to come by as it would be in a perfect player driven world then there would be no paying players, no income, and no Spiral Knights.

What this game really needs is crown sinks. We have, what, Punch? I honestly think that the wildness of the CE market will iron itself out after SK becomes a more developed game. It's still in it's early stages; in a year it could very well be a better game for everyone.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 21:07

#14

Andraxcore

Morning

@Elpeo-Kasshu So is countless other games. However in your first play, just after two hours, you hit the bottom of your mist tank. Quote one review from pc gamer; "When an energy drought stops play halfway through a session with friends, it’s like being poked in the eye. Free-to-play should mean just that: free, unrestricted play time.", Though you might fool yourselves but you wont fool me. A game that's worth devoting time to is not a game that you could only spend two measly hours. Again as I have said with kwizzy, You can lecture me about spending time outside, being a sociable wonderful person if we were in fat losers anonymous. However, you have no right to judge me without knowing anything about me. I am talking in behalf of players. We came here to play, moderation is our own responsibility and our own digression, not the game's. And dont tell me playing for longer than two hours means i'm a lifeless loser. You can fool yourself and sound like a noble lively social butterfly but dont speak in behalf of most players, no non-casual player only plays for only two hours.

@Siczo I am, however, a very impatient guy. Doing that might be fun but It's not profitable and it feels like i'm just doing it for the sake of doing it. And that's no fun

@Effrul Yes. People do play for even longer than six hours a day. Whether or not they are to become fat lifeless losers is irrelevant. And who said "every single day"? And of course there are also people who play at least six hours a day. If I had a subscription in a game for a month, i would spend hours on it to get the most out of it. I'm not saying i do buy imaginary goods with real money though it is tempting sometimes, however these people should be the target customers of three rings not casual players who only spend two hours on games, that is, if three rings plan to make money. Also read the bottom text.

@Lolreft That's dumb. When do servers explode lol. SK doesnt even have that big of a playerbase. It has hit only a million players in total recently, how does that equate to a million logging on every couple of seconds, that's just ridiculous, even for bigger games like world of warcraft. Also there's a simple solution for that which is adding more servers.

@Orangeo Aww I'm so touched, the government went that far for me? However, where's your basis on saying I play for six hours a day? And what's wrong with that? Six hours a day isnt enough to make someone a lifeless loser.

@Cassiusbenard Lol do you know how stupid you look right now? Read a wikipedia page or something before you risk looking like a moron.

@Starlinvf I'll read yours in a sec.

@Trihelix I dont get how that quote was relevant lol. Of course free players dont deserve anything. Never said they did. However if three rings plans to be compete with other free to play games, they'll actually give players freedom to play when they want and how long they want.

Please stop saying that gamers only play for two hours. Players do play for much longer and playing for six hours in a day doesn't make you a lifeless loser. I didnt say players play for six hours everyday. Players could want to spend their weekends when there is simply nothing better to do. And casual players that only play two hours a day is not a good target if you plan to make any money. Casual players do not buy in-game money, active players do. Once again, we came here to play, moderation is our own responsibility and our own digression, not the game's.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 20:43

#15

Andraxcore

@Starlinvf I got tired of

@Starlinvf I got tired of reading sorry. All i know is that it's not working and its not gonna work for me.

If you could please shorten and simplify that text then i'll try my best then. What i got from that was i apparently have misconceptions about the energy system. One of the two misconceptions you stated is that CE could be bought by cash or real money. I dont see how you came to conclude that i had a misconception about that. I know you can buy ce with cash and ce resellers are the lifeblood of the economy. The second one is about elevators. I know the elevator system is the main 'taxing' method of SK but in the energy system right now, it can use some retooling. If it works so well then why are so many people complaining about it? And not just anybody, even people whose jobs are to review games. If you read any review about sk, you will see them noting that the major problem is about the energy system. You can spin words around about how innovative and wonderful the energy system is but in the end, it's still flawed.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 20:47

#16

Madadder

you can't justify something

you can't justify something with "then why are so many people complaining about it?" andra, just because a few people think its flawed doesn't make it valid. i think the energy system works well as is maybe later when they have developed more of the world they will lessen the reins or something.

you can spin words around about how flawed and dumb the energy system is but in the end, they are just your opinions.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 21:10

#17

Starlinvf

@Andraxcore: The short

@Andraxcore: The short version = your trying to have a discussion about something you don't even fully understand. The hallmark of a short sighted energy thread is "the solution is to make energy more freely available, so it doesn't limit my activities". At that point, the discussion simply falls apart as both sides of the argument start debating in circles like congress on a spending bill.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 21:37

#18

Andraxcore

It's andrax

@Madadder Yes I can. And you can't say it's only 'some' people. There are lots of threads about this by lots of different people. And I did state that people whose job it is to review games also say that the energy system is flawed. People that have tested and played alot of games. These people, you can say, are experts.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 21:39

#19

Andraxcore

"The short version = your

@Starlinvf "The short version = your trying to have a discussion about something you don't even fully understand. The hallmark of a short sighted energy thread is "the solution is to make energy more freely available, so it doesn't limit my activities". At that point, the discussion simply falls apart as both sides of the argument start debating in circles like congress on a spending bill."

Well now was that so much harder than typing 5~6 big paragraphs? So what do I not understand then?

"the solution is to make energy more freely available, so it doesn't limit my activities"

Yes. In a semi-exaggerated way, the solution is to make energy more freely available. Not so it completely doesn't limit my activities. I know Three Rings needs money but if they plan to keep players and make more money, they need to lower the limit. At least enough for a player to play for four hours. Also I agree to what reviewers say, SK is free to play, to an extent. If it was completely free to play it wouldnt limit me so much. But yeah it's "free" to play.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 21:52

#20

Fehzor

Meh

The energy scheme that is currently in place is balanced. Yes, it is greedy, we all know that, but it doesn't change that for the most part it is balanced.

The only imbalanced part about it is the fact that it turns off new players almost completely- people that I've asked (who have refused to play) about it say that they hate the energy system, and typically refuse to play because of it. I'd suggest to OOO making changes regarding this- I like the mist tank at the beggining, and I understand that helping new players allows "loop holes" for people to make tons of cash fast with it.- I personally would suggest making T1 levels cost 5 to go down in, and give roughly 3/5 as much of a reward for completing- to allow them to get slightly more for more time. Another idea to improve this would be to allow them to craft 2* items easier (35 CE-ish) when crafting for the first time- it hurts not being able to use your new item.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 22:00

#21

Starlinvf

@Andraxcore: now thats gotta

@Andraxcore: now thats gotta be 2 internet firsts in the same sentence. You didn't wanna read this thing, so you want me to just skip that part and call you an idiot.... then you want me to explain why...... that is just.... wow......

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 22:13

#22

Andraxcore

Whether it's balanced or not,

@Fehzor Whether it's balanced or not, i'm not sure. But what I am sure of is that it's not working for me at least. I'd like to be able to play for as long as I want with the weapons I worked so hard for. Isnt that the main goal a player has? Staying at the advanced training halls is just too damn boring. I agree with everything else you said.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 22:13

#23

Andraxcore

@Starlinvf lol. I read the

@Starlinvf lol. I read the thing and I still dont see what i dont already understand.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 22:38

#24

Madadder

andra this game takes time to

andra this game takes time to fully grasp and reviewers are pretty limited when it comes to time to play the game so their views are also limited.

the only thing flawed here is your reasoning... the unbinding system for instance was implemented so people dont spam the market with gear that should be earn by oneself, over the course of time (which gives them the time to develop the next bit of content). they could have never implemented and have a game with equipment that's unbindable like WoW( i think they dont have an unbinding system).

the revival system is part of the challenge otherwise people would spam revival just to kill what ever the monster is.

and i do say some because one a small portion of the community actually uses the forums

bottomline, all of this is your whining about how incompetent you are when it comes to managing your energy and how you can't perpetually play the game like the rest of us.

Mi, 10/12/2011 - 22:57

#25

Fehzor

Ummm

By balanced, I did mean that you could play forever. Just buy ce off the market, as long as you don't waste energy and play correctly, it shouldn't be a problem. Arenas alone get you a ton of profit, as do most other runs. If nothing else, just do FSC a good 5 times, and you'll be set for another 7 hours of fun.

And if you really can't live with it, and its so terrible, I suggest you either find a new game, or make your own, like everyone else who plays for 3 hours, sees the energy system, and leaves because of it.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 01:04

#26

Andraxcore

lol. Once again it's andrax.

It does take time to grasp the gameplay and the overall landscape of the game but the reviewers do spend an ample amount of time to do research and get to know the game, which they cant even do with the limits. It doesn't matter whether they are noobs or not, they can give a definitive view of the general scope of games within a short period of time. If you insist in saying that they are not reliable reviews. I can pull out several threads with so many other players complaining about the same thing. If you insist on blindly playing a broken game then fine, go ahead be my guest. But you need to accept it, it's broken.

Here's a post by Boswick in a thread about energy. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/217#comment-1090

Energy balancing*(this is the title)

This is a dangerous topic for developers to tread upon, but I do want to let you guys know:

This is the first phase of the Preview Event. Right now, we're mostly just trying to get players into the game, see some early behavior patterns, and most importantly, make sure things on the technical side aren't horribly broken.

In subsequent phases, we're going to be focusing much more closely on the energy system, payment models, and getting all of that stuff where it ought to be.

So! Do know that we're listening to your ideas and concerns. If you don't see movement right now on things, it's not because we're not interested; we're just not to that phase yet. We'll be shaking things up in the future, and though it might be a bumpy ride, in the end, we hope to provide options for numerous different playstyles.

So there we go that's pretty definitive proof that the energy system DOES need fixing. That was posted almost a year ago. I simply want them to keep their promise.

"the only thing flawed here is your reasoning... the unbinding system for instance was implemented so people dont spam the market with gear that should be earn by oneself, over the course of time (which gives them the time to develop the next bit of content). they could have never implemented and have a game with equipment that's unbindable like WoW( i think they dont have an unbinding system)."

I did not say what was flawed about the unbinding system and you cannot simply assume what i'm talking about and conclude that my whole reasoning is flawed. The presence of a binding system and an unbinding system is understandable because of heat and token prizes. I'm not saying it should be taken off. I agree with you, the presence of a binding system is needed stop farming. But they are simply too expensive. It's four times more expensive than the energy cost to craft a 2*,(oddly, 2* is greater than 3*) three times more expensive to craft a 3* and 4* item and five times more expensive to craft a 5*. I agree that they are good solution against farmers but it's too much that it's almost never used anymore. And that's become an null area for energy spending. If they actually want people to use energy on it, they should lower the prices.

"bottomline, all of this is your whining about how incompetent you are when it comes to managing your energy and how you can't perpetually play the game like the rest of us."

Wow such tough words. Let's keep a semi friendly discussion here shall we? :) How did you come to claim that i'm whining about my being incompetent in managing my energy? I've gotten high enough to reach t3, i'm not whining. I'm simply talking about increasing the free and play in "free to play". I'm also trying to help three rings here. I'm okay with there being an energy system that limits me but limiting players to play for only two hours is too much. And yes i cannot perpetually play this if it will only entertain me for two hours a day.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 00:16

#27

Niichi

@Fehzor

I really like your ideas about it. New players are definitely the most affected by the energy system and tweaks to help that would give a much better first impression.

Edit: I must admit at first the system was a bit restrictive so I had to limit my play time. I found that I had to strike a balance between using CE to extend game time and using CE for equipment upgrades.

Later on this became much less of an issue as I earned more from rewards. And honestly, in all I kinda prefer this system (you can have virtually everything for free with patience but we charge you energy for play time) compared to what seems to be the more standard FTP model (we let you play more but we'll lock a lot of important content outright).

Do, 10/13/2011 - 00:28

#28

Madadder

"So there we go that's

"So there we go that's definitive proof that the energy system DOES need fixing. That was posted almost a year ago. I simply want them to keep their promise."

i would like to emphasis that right there because during that time they were in the preview stage, by now in their yes its FULLY possible they agree the current systems work and there is no need to change it. i do realize they can change it as they see fit but you idea may not fly with them

ok i admit i misread that part but the pricing is fair... it deters people from using it since it's cheaper to make it from themselves (though it takes longer) but the important thing is they OFFER the service, even at a heavy price, it's there.

sorry its a force of habit since there are numerous threads on whiny brats complaining on energy. you don't understand the repercussions of your suggested ways to "increasing the free and play in "free to play"." decreasing elevator costs increases crown generation which goes into the economy and causes inflation.

no one is limiting you to 2 hours other than yourself

Do, 10/13/2011 - 01:11

#29

Andraxcore

"i do realize they can change

"i do realize they can change it as they see fit but you idea may not fly with them"

"you don't understand the repercussions of your suggested ways to "increasing the free and play in "free to play"." decreasing elevator costs increases crown generation which goes into the economy and causes inflation."

Does this mean you think it should be fixed? Those were only suggestions that i thought they should consider. I couldn't care less if my ideas are not taken into account, I simply want them to do something to fix it.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 02:13

#30

Pawn

@ OP

The main flaw i see with your suggestions is this. If the elevator fees were to go to say 5 ce (a 50% cost cut) the result of that would be CE prices nearly doubling. Look at powersurge weekends, they always raise ce cost by 400-800 (sometimes more) crowns per 100 ce. And that's with just a weekend of cheaper elevators. Even worse, the ce market really struggles to deflate back to the previous equilibrium.

Anyhow, hang in there. It gets better.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 05:29

#31

Coldtart

Would Andrax please provide

Would Andrax please provide solid evidence to back up his claims that the energy system is broken?

The business model of Spiral Knights effectively requires there be both CE sellers that mostly use CE bought with real money to become rich ingame and F2Pers that provide the CE sellers with their crowns and mats in return for the CE needed to play the game. The game being playable under these conditions is vital to its profitability and there is no indication that Spiral Knights is unprofitable for OOO. If the energy system was broken as you say, there would be no profit for OOO and therefore no Spiral Knights.

Claiming that lots of people make complaint threads backs up your argument is fallacy at best and outright lies at worst, don't even try it.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 07:22

#32

Andraxcore

@Pawn I did not say you

@Pawn I did not say you should do what I suggested, I just pointed out some things OOO should consider. And how is that a flaw? 400-800 or even more is very insignificant to how much more you would gain in the clockworks. If you lose 800 more than before, so what? You gain 6k more in clockworks. Also, CE vs crowns prices going up can only be better for everyone, buyers, sellers, and especially Three Rings. It's good for Three Rings because people would buy more CE when the prices go up. If you know the law of supply and demand you would know this.

@Coldtart The fact that you can only play two hours a day is a total flaw. Yes you can play longer if you buy ce but it's impractical and it's much less profitable than using only mist. Also, buying real money with CE does not give good compensation. An example of this is in World of Warcraft and other MMOs you only need 15 USD to experiece everything for the whole day for the whole month. In SK you pay 15 USD for 5800ce which is only about 105 hours of gameplay without using ce to craft/rez/buying upgrades/opening gates, etc. You pay 15 bucks for four days worth of gameplay in a browser game while you can pay 15 bucks in arguably one of the best MMOrpgs to access everything for the entire month. Try and tell me that's not broken.

"Claiming that lots of people make complaint threads backs up your argument is fallacy at best and outright lies at worst, don't even try it."

Seriously? You're just gonna go ahead and say that i'm making up the fact that there are lots of threads complaining about the energy system without even asking me if i actually have proof? I hope you actually did some research before you make such a spiteful claim, because I did.

Here are some threads.

Check each of them well, make sure I'm not just spewing random threads in your face. I spew only the best picked **** at people's faces. Yes that's just some. I didn't spend alot of time looking for them either.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 08:26

#33

Effrul

All those threads have something else in common.

There are an awful lot of "wahhh the energy system sucks waahhhh" threads, and they're all united in their underlying theme of "we don't think we should spend any money to play more of this game we're enjoying."

The slow rate of ME recharge is pretty much indispensable to Three Rings' business model; the idea is that the hopelessly addicted will pay for CE to keep playing once their Mist is exhausted, and the impatient will pay for CE for crafting and/or to sell for Crowns. Something you've not really taken into account is the potential knock-on effect of increased ME regeneration on crafting. If you're generating up to 300 ME every twenty-four hours, you could effectively save yourself 100CE that you'd normally put into crafting by logging off for a few hours.

Increased ME regeneration would hurt Three Rings' income by undermining CE sales. There's really not a lot to be said to counter that. Why on Earth would the developers alter a feature designed to support their business model in a way that directly sabotages it? The current Energy system doesn't need fixing - it isn't broken. It's working exactly the way it's intended to.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 10:10

#34

Malhaku

Your big complaint is 105 hours monthly gameplay?

Seriously? 105 hours / 31 = 3 hours & 23 minutes a day. And your mist is an extra 2 hours a day... that's 5 hours & 23 minutes a day.

But let's even be reasonable... you use half of that bought crystal energy for other uses... so 2600 remaining. By your calculation, that's 52 hours per month or 1 hour, 41 minutes per day. With your mist that's 3 hours and 41 minutes per day. $15/31 = 48 cents per day.

48 cents for 3 hours and 41 minutes of gaming/entertainment.

To match this standard:
A $60 console game would need to provide 459 Hours of gameplay.
A $10 movie ticket would be for a movie that is 76 Hours long.
A $20 Dvd (2 hour movie) would be soooo good that you would watch it 77 times.

Honestly, that seems like a reaally good value for money spent.

If your argument is for subscription games that offer unlimited play... then go play one of those.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 10:11

#35

Andraxcore

@Effrul "we don't think we

@Effrul

"we don't think we should spend any money to play more of this game we're enjoying."

That's exagerated and full of "oh we people who complain about energy r stoopeed" overtones. Your attempt to discredit the the validity of these threads is lame and meaningless. I simply posted those threads as proof to Coldtart that there are many threads that complain about the energy system whether they present reasonable arguments or not is irrelevant.

"The slow rate of ME recharge is pretty much indispensable to Three Rings' business model; the idea is that the hopelessly addicted will pay for CE to keep playing once their Mist is exhausted, and the impatient will pay for CE for crafting and/or to sell for Crowns. Something you've not really taken into account is the potential knock-on effect of increased ME regeneration on crafting. If you're generating up to 300 ME every twenty-four hours, you could effectively save yourself 100CE that you'd normally put into crafting by logging off for a few hours."

Once again I did not say they should do that. I simply offered possible solutions that they should consider. That's why I wrote; "Might not be a good suggestion as that would understandably decrease your sales."

"The current Energy system doesn't need fixing - it isn't broken. It's working exactly the way it's intended to."

If it was intended to limit gameplay to two hours a day and not even give cash spenders a proper compensation, then yes, it's working exactly as it was intended to.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 10:18

#36

Andraxcore

@Malhaku "With your mist"

@Malhaku

"With your mist"

That's all true, however, spenders do not pay for mist, it's a common good(goods that are common :P) which everyone receives. So how much more advantage do they get than other players for 15 dollars(the same amount used to unlock all features of WoW for 24/7 use for a month)? 3 hours and 23 minutes a day. Hardly better than a WoW subscription.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 10:42

#37

Malhaku

{Shrugs} Then go play Wow The

{Shrugs} Then go play Wow

The fact is, in Wow everyone pays so I can hardly see how you can not count your mist energy in personal game time calculations just because non-paying customers are getting it as well.

But I'll play your game. Don't count mist energy... 3 hours and 23 minutes per day for $0.48 a day.

A $60 console game would need to provide 422 Hours of gameplay.
A $10 movie ticket would be for a movie that is 70 Hours long.
A $20 Dvd (2 hour movie) would be soooo good that you would watch it 71 times.

ZOMG! WHAT A HUGE REDUCTION IN VALUE!!!

I can only assume you're on this warpath because you think you deserve more f2p time. Let me guess, you've never given a cent to OOO.

Also, OOO, I assume you ignore these pile of crap threads. However, if you are reading, definitely don't listen to his next to last statement in the original post. I want quality content, not "rushed" content.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 11:02

#38

Elpeo-Kasshu

In addition to buying with

In addition to buying with real money, you can just buy more energy with the in-game currency, I'm not sure what the norm is, With one of my normal JK runs i get about 5-6k each time and 4k with every other T2 run. With that, you should be able to buy energy every 2 days and still make a profit. An extra 1500 CE a month is added to that 2600 CE. That's an extra 30 hours per month.

Also, I wasn't judging you or your life, I could care less about what you do. Just thought i'd apologize if I offended you, wasn't my intention. (BTW I'm not a social butterfly, I hate most people).

Do, 10/13/2011 - 12:05

#39

Mohandar

Why OOO is brilliant.

The energy system WORKS. Unfortunately, it is indeed biased against new players that want to stay F2P, because these players will necessarily get less out of their mist than veterans. One could argue that this makes it a bad model because you will drive off newbies, and the game will die from starvation/stagnation. But this "poke in the eye" (as described by the horribad review) is purposeful: this will drive a significant number of new players to buy CE, which they then sell some amount to get crowns. Thus, the game economy stays balanced so long as there are new players coming in.

1) From a business perspective it makes sense too: these impulse buyers are great because if they stick around, they will undoubtedly find more reasons to dump $$$ (and CE) into the game. A tiny fraction will be big spenders who buy CE on a regular basis, and although they won't compose the bulk of the company's revenue, they inject proportionally more CE into the system (more likely to sell for crowns or items than burn it straight up).
2) The patient players that are content to work their way up on mist alone are also desirable because they are usually the reasonable majority that will produce mature, useful feedback for the company. A fraction of these will go on to buy energy as a customer loyalty action, which is the best thing a company could want.
3) The last group are the F2P starters that whine about energy and ragequit. (Those that give in and buy CE fall into the impulse buyer category). The company benefits because these players are the least productive to the community: they shout the loudest and do the least. When they quit, sometimes they leave a ripple, but by and large the community (and thus the company) is better off.

In short, OOO has it well figured out (I hear YPP uses a similar F2P system), so it's not surprising that the SK works like a well oiled machine from a business perspective.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 12:56

#40

Pawn

@ Andraxcore

I am a college educated International Business graduate. I understand supply and demand fully, wholly, totally.

You however do not understand that you cannot apply real world supply and demand model to a virtual world where many currencies are essentially free, and everyone has access to the same products for buying and/or selling. In the real world supply and demand are directly correlated. In the virtual Spiral Knights world supply and demand are loosely correlated.

Now you know.

P.S. The energy system works just fine. Furthermore you can (i do) easily make 15k ce or more a week. How? Loosely correlated supply and demand.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 16:27

#41

Orangeo

Look, if you wwanna change

Look, if you wwanna change something so in-depth (pun), you might just wanna play another game. That's like telling bungie that they should have made halo 2 a third person game. It's a casual game, and you don't seem to be a casual player. There are planty of MMO's out there, namely WOW, as stated by none other than yourself.

Either way, you're obviously not going to convince anyone to change their mind, especialy the GM's. When they see "GM's please read this" in a topic title, I'm pretty sure it's a flag for them to stay away.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 16:51

#42

Kwizzy

Re: Wow comparison. No, you

Re: Wow comparison.

No, you cannot go over there and play everything for $15. It's just as limited as it is here. Crowns are basically "time", and people are trading their CE to other players to play the game for them. The main difference is WoW doesn't let you trade your gametime or currency to someone else so they can play it for you & advance your characters.

Over there you must play hundreds, or thousands, of hours to be able to play the highest tier content.
Or find whatever neat looking armor/weapons/cosmetic you'd like.

Over here, you can spend $15 in the store and be fully equipped to tour the world.
Or adventure as much as you'd like for $15 a month.
Or both! Plus, everyone will happily accept CE in trades.

And if you manage to run out, want to craft more or use more elevators, just trade a small portion of your crowns (time) to do so. And if you don't play insane hours, SK is definitely much cheaper than most MMOs. And even better, no darn gold spammers around :)

Do, 10/13/2011 - 16:50

#43

Heavy-Duty

Dude

Lowering energy cost fees for elevators would INFLATE Crowns4Energy prices. The more people BUY energy, the lower prices for Crowns4Energy go. With more crowns using mist energy running, Crowns4Energy would inflate BIG TIME. When they get more schemes for people to BUY energy, prices actually go down. These complaints about using too much energy when you have so little is becoming bothersome. How about go OUTSIDE sometimes. They SHOULDN'T change this, buy bring up more schemes for making people BUY energy to lower Crowns4Energy, then you have more game time. The more user-generated purchased energy there is in the SK world, the less rare energy is, the more people buy energy with real money. If you are annoyed at this, and wasted all your energy already, play in the Training Area, Lockdown, Bomberman, chat with friends, go outside, or just stop playing completely. I'm doing ABSOLUTELY fine with this method of 100 mist energy regeneration and no $$$ (almost all 4 star) and I find this Mist Energy system working great and not time consuming. In all, we should WANT SK to bring up more schemes!

Do, 10/13/2011 - 16:52

#44

Orangeo

Yhea, if I had a nickle for

Yhea, if I had a nickle for everytine this game was compared to WOW or TF2.

Do, 10/13/2011 - 17:36

#45

Snarbys-Knight

Splendid!!

This is a wonderful and Spledid idea this should be shown to others and to be considered by all admins and ect. Here is my link for this i suggest!
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/29146

Do, 10/13/2011 - 23:51

#46

Andraxcore

Afternoon :P

@Malhaku In WoW a cash spender has maximum advantage over non spenders. Spenders can access all features 24/7/31 while a non-spender can play 0/0/0. Now that's advantage. It's kind of ironic how in arguably the best MMOrpg gives much more value for money than in a small, browser based game which still needs much further developing.

Yes, I have never spent real money for virtual money. Also, I will never be spending anything on MMOrpgs. That means I'm not simply doing this for myself. I'm doing this to help Spiral Knights become balanced.

"Also, OOO, I assume you ignore these pile of crap threads. However, if you are reading, definitely don't listen to his next to last statement in the original post. I want quality content, not "rushed" content."
Ooooh is someone getting mad here? Once again, I cannot care less if Three Rings does not take my ideas into account, I simply want them to do something, and not just something half assed. I simply put those suggestions for them to consider. And I do not see how you came to say that Three Rings should not listen to that part simply because you think it was rushed.

And once again here's Boswick's post in this thread. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/217#comment-1090

Whether you like it or not, Three Rings does listen. :)

@Elpeo-Kasshu And what's the point of buying in game currency after buying energy with real money? That is no advantage for cash spenders.

"Also, I wasn't judging you or your life, I could care less about what you do. Just thought i'd apologize if I offended you, wasn't my intention. (BTW I'm not a social butterfly, I hate most people)."
I rarely take offense when people try to judge me. However, how can you judge me without even knowing anything about me? And I don't see the your point in saying you could care less about what I do, I feel the opposite way about you and I don't feel the need to say so. Thanks for caring about what i do though :). (the phrase is "I couldn't care less")

@Mohandar The way you described Three Rings makes them look more cheap and greedy than brilliant. And the players that actually buy ce with real money dont even get enough compensation. You can't only think about the gains of the company, you also have to think about your consumers.

@Pawn Does that virtual claim come with a virtual diploma? And since you're such an amazing International Buissiness graduate, do you mind explaining why it cannot be applied to the game economy? The law of Supply and Demand is a universal law, not a "real life law". That means as long as there is trade, exchange, and economy, the law applies.

@Orangeo I sadly cannot play WoW because I dont spend money on mmorpgs, if i could play wow, i would never play any other game especially not a browser game. I am however downloading forsaken worlds. The reson I am doing this is simply because I've seen that the energy system needs fixing. I do not want to change it, I just want Three Rings to fix it. Remember fix is different from change.

"Either way, you're obviously not going to convince anyone to change their mind, especially the GM's. When they see "GM's please read this" in a topic title, I'm pretty sure it's a flag for them to stay away."

How do you know that? Are you a GM? Well using your reasoning, you definitely are not since you(I assume) read the thread.

@Kwizzy
"No, you cannot go over there and play everything for $15."
Yes you can.

"Crowns are basically "time", and people are trading their CE to other players to play the game for them."

How are crowns basically "time lol. Buying and using ce to play is impractical and much less profitable than playing only with mist.

"Over there you must play hundreds, or thousands, of hours to be able to play the highest tier content.
Or find whatever neat looking armor/weapons/cosmetic you'd like."

Lol how is that bad? You're just making it look even better. Rephrasing it "Over there you can play for hours and hours and you still wont be short of content" You're simply implying that WoW has alot more content. And that just means the game wont get old or repetitive. Here it only took me 2~3 months to get to t3. After i get five star equips then it will just become a boring, repetitive game, I'll just be trying to get better UVs and get countless FoVs. How fun.

"Or adventure as much as you'd like for $15 a month."
Have you not been reading this thread? 15 dollars a month here would only give you 105 hours of gameplay without spending ce on anything other than elevators. That's only four days, if divided evenly throughout the whole month, only 3 hours and 30 minutes. Barely "as much as you'd like" lol.

"And if you manage to run out, want to craft more or use more elevators, just trade a small portion of your crowns (time) to do so. And if you don't play insane hours, SK is definitely much cheaper than most MMOs. And even better, no darn gold spammers around :)"
If you mean SK is cheap in a sense that they're greedy and barely compensating money, then yes, it's definitely cheaper.

@Heavy-Duty Once again(for like the hundredth time), I did not say they should do what I suggesting. I simply stated them as some points they should consider. Also, even if the crowns vs. energy market would inflate, that would be insignificant to the advantages it would bring. Buyers will have twice as much game time and twice as much profit from playing in clockworks. Sellers will get more crowns per every 100 energy they sell. Three Rings would gain so much more as more people would buy more ce because the prices are high.

@Orangeo The reason I'm comparing SK to WoW is simply because it's arguably the best game out there. If SK doesnt even give a better compensation for 15 dollars while being an under construction browser based game, then why should players spend 15 dollars on SK than spend 15 dollars on the best MMOrpg out there?

Do, 10/13/2011 - 23:43

#47

Heavy-Duty

...

...on response to me... that's not what your forum title says...

Fr, 10/14/2011 - 00:13

#48

Andraxcore

@Heavy-Duty "...on response

@Heavy-Duty "...on response to me... that's not what your forum title says..."

About what lol. I just want Three Rings to fix the energy system. I cannot care any less if Three Rings do not take my suggestions to account. I simply want them to do something not half assed to fix it.

Fr, 10/14/2011 - 01:44

#49

Starlinvf

I think we have a record for

I think we have a record for "longest argument on a public forum without a flame war", "most relevant wall of text posts in a single thread", and "Multi-tasking OP without losing consistency".

Fr, 10/14/2011 - 02:36

#50

Coldtart

I fail to see how casual

I fail to see how casual players not using up expensive server bandwidth is a flaw. Money doesn't grow on trees and Spiral Knights isn't free to run. The fact of the matter is this is a game that is free in name only, but can be played free indefinitely if you put about a quarter the effort that most WoW players put into that game.

Speaking of WoW, it's a foolish comparison. You pay full price for a game and three expansions and then have to pay per month to play it and you get a really slow paced game that's designed to take full advantage of the fact that you pay for a window of opportunity to play the game.

Also, re-read my post. Thirteen people complaining about energy out of many thousands of active players is a tiny minority. The forums are in no way representative of the entire playerbase; only the most vocal of it.

You offer no concrete evidence to support your claims, just your own opinion and the opinions of other people. A large number of players play indefinitely without paying a cent of real money. Your claim that the same amount of money as you spend on a subscription game per month gives you a tiny amount of play time ignores the fact that you can obtain more CE ingame and that a T2 run (especially JK) will almost always return a profit on the CE used. Furthermore, I regularly interact with players that mainly use their mist to play the game. Contrary to what you say, it is possible to play and enjoy Spiral Knights casually. From this I can only infer that this just isn't the game for you. That isn't a fault with the game, it's no different to my aversion to games like WoW; just play a game that you actually like instead of trying to tell another game's developers that their game should change to be more like your favourites.

Suche

Energy. Dont Do Anything Else Before You Fix It. Admins, Mods, Designers and OOO Please Read.