I think there's some merits to the complaints. Just consider this.

People are working for game content. This is new progress towards what could be end-game content and maybe the core itself. It's a new gaming experience and it may be a vital portion of the game that people are missing if they want to see the world expand. What can you do to be a part of this?

1: You could accept the idea that you would have gamble, with each try being the equivalent of roughly $2. You can save up your CE using crowns you got while spending ME, but that could take about a week for it to recharge. So you're either investing a lot of time, or investing money for convenience.

2: You can go to the auction house and compete against other players who are vying for the key. This will require either a lot of crowns, or a lot of CE to get converted into crowns.

3: You can network. There's a chance you could possibly get into the party that is gearing up to do a shadow run. Will they require you to make sacrifices on your part to make it fair for the person who invested in the other two options? Would this cause a divide? Might there be bickering over who should be compensated for what? If you aren't close friends with them this could result in drama.

This itself is a rather divisive model for the community for the sake of some new levels to play. It requires a heavy amount of sacrifice and someone has to pay. You'll either have to pay in crowns, or a ton of CE, or just the time and effort spent getting the right connections. And even then if you can't prove yourself as being a worthy and advanced players, the connection you find may turn you down for not having what it takes. Once more that can be pretty divisive.

One final thing: don't snub the people who are free to play. Also don't snub the people who splurged and got unlucky. At least they believed in this system enough to try it out. Believe me, SK could have the best gameplay anywhere but if it doesn't have a good community, then there would probably be a bad economy and a sparse population. MMOs have a social component and they can really suffer without a strong community and player base.

I can see both sides (about how this content is optional, about how you should accepting your gambling losses), but you should not hold the other side in contempt, and you should show a little more respect. We aren't whiners, quitters, and bums.

I'm kinda too busy munching on candy.

Good luck to whoever decided to open so many boxes through all the anti-shadow key rants in hopes for a shadow key. You really made your point.

It's just a game.

Can't tell if troll or just ....

The moronic nature of this analogy is beyond foolishness; someone must have absolute lack of critical thinking skills to oversee the LIMITLESS contrast in factors of the two situations.

Except when you call Shadow Lairs optional you might as well call everything else in the game optional.
They are the endgame, simple as that. They aren't hats or accessories.

I don't think we need to cite what is end-game content in this game. It's common knowledge that anything tier-3 related is end-game, and that these shadow lairs are pretty much souped up, end-game content.

Tersakoff's analogy isn't perfect, but it's pretty apt. The people who pay money for this game have to get something for their money. There has to be something that's harder for free players to get. Result: A small subset of the players go nuts, because the higher-paying players are getting "unfair treatment".

Wuvvums describes a hypothetical arcade that restricts access to some games to those customers who have won at a slot machine. Said arcade doesn't bother me at all. As a business, they have the right to set prices as they like (subject to certain laws against discrimination), and I have the right not to purchase their high-price products.

In short, if this greatly upsets you, then get ready to be upset all day every day of your life.

Recently, players such as Laverna and Aurorra have questioned whether there is now so much chance in Spiral Knights that it is becoming a form of gambling. I don't want SK to become a gambling game. I vote against this trend with my money and time, by not partaking in the most gambly aspects of SK (e.g. Lockboxes). Beyond that, I don't see any reason to get upset; Three Rings is going to listen to how you spend your money and time, much more than to your forum posts.

The only criticism I've heard, that impresses me, is that the Prize Wheel/Lockbox/Shadow Key system may be specifically designed to exploit the addiction of gambling addicts. I don't want to participate in a game that is substantially financed by exploiting human suffering.

The other criticisms that I've heard basically boil down to, "Shadow Keys are too expensive for me. They should be less expensive, so that I can buy them." This criticism does not impress me at all, because there are already many products that I can't afford; I'm inured to it.

Can we stop making OOO out to be some big bad evil company?

@Paux
Unless Nick decides to release a Tier 4 and 6/7 star equip, anything Tier3 and Core related is currently the endgame.

Let me get this straight, you're comparing people complaining about Three Ring's practically criminal pricing with people willing to commit suicide over being unable to afford something in real life? Straw man much?

Can we stop making OOO out to be some big bad evil company?

Sure, as soon as they stop behaving as such.

Maybe now is a good time to summarize the arguments against Shadow Lair pricing. As far as I've seen, they fall into three classes:

• The Drug Dealer: "The consumers of Shadow Lairs are not just relatively wealthy players, who pay these crazy prices because it's rationally worth that much to them. Rather, these players consist largely of gambling/gaming addicts, and Three Rings is knowingly exploiting their lack of self-control." Aurorra has articulated this view in the past. If this is true, then it's very worrisome to me. I'm trying to think more and learn more about it.
• The Bumbler: "Three Rings is unwittingly killing their business by setting prices badly." This is the view articulated by Twiddle in the preceding post. I don't take it seriously, because Three Rings is (A) highly motivated to keep Spiral Knights alive, and (B) privy to enormous amounts of consumption/spending data that you and I don't have. They have people with expertise in marketing, social psychology, business, etc., in addition to programming and artwork. If they're doing this, then it's probably because it's good for their business. You and I just don't exactly know why. There is no way that you and I know more about the players than Three Rings does. Three Rings is constantly gathering statistics on what we do.
• The Saint: "Three Rings should be giving away everything for free. Players who spend money should not have any more access or convenience than non-paying players have." This is ridiculous; it ignores the very notion that money has value. Few complainers employ this argument in its pure form. Instead, they do it halfway: "Well, Shadow Lairs shouldn't be totally free and easy to get, but the price of entry should be lower." Most people who make this argument cite no rationale at all. They simply want everything cheaper and easier, and have no guiding concept, other than their own self-interest. However, some people who make this argument cite prices of other MMO games for comparison. That's good. But Three Rings also knows the prices of other MMO games. So why have they priced Shadow Lairs as they have? This argument effectively reduces to the Bumbler argument.

In short, if we assume that the company and its consumers are acting rationally, then eventually things should approach an equilibrium, at which the company is maximizing profit for its shareholders, and consumers are paying exactly what they think the game is worth. We may not be at this equilibrium yet, but I bet it will happen. My only worry is that there are some consumers who aren't acting rationally, because they're addicts, and Three Rings knows it.

yes i raged at the shadow keys, no i didn't rage at silver keys :D

i'm not quiting this game just because i'm not "allowed" to play new content when i want to i the future (now starting to grind T3 so still quite a noob haha) i just won't pay for anything for a while and hope they stop the casino knights tour we are on now haha

still love playing the game, and playing T3 on my mist energy (crafting is at a standstill now haha)

However, some people who make this argument cite prices of other MMO games for comparison. That's good. But Three Rings also knows the prices of other MMO games. So why have they priced Shadow Lairs as they have?

If you're going to discount comparison to similar products, both of leaders of the industry and direct competitors, then you're going to need to supply us with a rational argument as to how two hours of gameplay is worth $75.

Bopp, let me add one more argument against the current shadow key setup. I think you may have lumped it into your third "it's not fair" category, but I think it is different

* "the bait and switch". The game is advertised as being free to play. When i started playing, everything in the game was quite reasonably reached by F2P players. In OOO's other game, puzzle pirates, F2P often participate in things that often cost the equivalent of tens of millions of crowns (taking islands), but there are quite reasonable ways that skilled F2P players can get that and OOO isn't setting the price they are paying in any way, it is bid up by the players. (I, personally, have taken and defended islands for under 200k, but those islands weren't worth as much so the bidding was low.) With shadow keys, the SK crew has created a very large paywall, like nothing else that OOO has done in any of their games. In puzzle pirates, I could participate in several island blockades per week, even though that part of the game is limited to only weekends. This paywall is not what I expected, and it isn't something I can see a F2P player participating in very often.

Personally, I have simply written off shadow lairs. It is like it is a different game, with a very different pay model. *shrug*

The Bumbler: "Three Rings is unwittingly killing their business by setting prices badly." This is the view articulated by Twiddle in the preceding post. I don't take it seriously, because Three Rings is (A) highly motivated to keep Spiral Knights alive, and (B) privy to enormous amounts of consumption/spending data that you and I don't have. They have people with expertise in marketing, social psychology, business, etc., in addition to programming and artwork. If they're doing this, then it's probably because it's good for their business. You and I just don't exactly know why. There is no way that you and I know more about the players than Three Rings does. Three Rings is constantly gathering statistics on what we do.

There are several things wrong with this argument:

...Three Rings is (A) highly motivated to keep Spiral Knights alive...

This is an assumption. They might not be.

(B) privy to enormous amounts of consumption/spending data that you and I don't have. They have people with expertise in marketing, social psychology, business, etc., in addition to programming and artwork. If they're doing this, then it's probably because it's good for their business.

Just because OOO is doing what's best for them doesn't mean they are doing what's best for us. What's good for business is not always good for the consumer. As an example (and only as an example because you'll ask for one) a monopoly is wonderful for business but terrible for the consumer. Further, data on consumption and spending and psychology can be used to trick or otherwise cause the consumer into doing what they would not otherwise do. For instance, a customer is more likely to buy something if there was a sense of urgency attached to the item. Ever watched those infomercials on TV? Notice the clock in the corner and keywords like "time is running out", "don't wait, act now," and "you must call now?" Those aren't there for show.

On a side note, right now, are you constantly running the first few floors in a tier? Do you know these floors have the lowest CR to CE payout in the game? Do you know you can usually skip these floors by joining a party in progress? If you know all this and are running those floors, then why are you running those floors?

You and I just don't exactly know why.

You are correct. I don't exactly know why. But, that doesn't mean I can't figure some stuff out. How do you access the shadow lair? There are two ways. First, you can wait for lock boxes from the prize wheel (or buy them from the AH,) buy a bunch of silver keys (with a bunch of real life money,) hope you get a shadow key and use them as you get them. Second, you can buy them from the auction house. What does each method accomplish in terms of gameplay?

The first method nets OOO a lot of money. It uses the natural curiosity of the playerbase combined with the general lack of new end game content to get the playerbase to pay ludicrous amounts of money just to see something new and challenging.

The second method acts as a crown sink. Actually, it doesn't act that much as a crown sink, but it redistributes the wealth. With the second method the shadow lairs are like super danger rooms. They carry super high risk - super high reward, and give end game players something to do with those millions of crowns they have been accumulating over the months. (I'm not referring to the folks who just hit T3. I'm referring to the players who have been at T3 for several months now and who have all their ideal weapons and armor with good UV's on them. I know you exist out there.) It also gives those that open shadow boxes something highly desierable to sell (and that keeps the folks playing material tycoon playing for that much longer, along with giving them a happy reward when they open a lock box and find a shadow key inside.)

Honestly, when I think back over the update, I think the second explanation is correct. I think that the shadow keys update is a super high risk update for those running T3 and looking for a serious challenge. However, the first explanation, that OOO might be abusing our natural curiosity and desire for something new and challenging has put me on edge. My question going forward is "Is the shadow key update a sign of things to come?" Is T4 going to be behind more pay walls and CE lotteries? Is all of our future content going to be delivered with the expectation of us paying increasing amounts of CE just to gain access at it?

I hope not. I sincerely hope not. This is a good game. I don't want to leave it.

Thanks everyone for your responses to my post above. The discussion here is of a higher quality than in most of these threads, so I hope to keep learning from it.

Agrimony: Yes, I'm assuming that Three Rings and most consumers are acting rationally. This is a standard assumption in economics. It isn't perfect, but it explains a lot of how the world works. The question I'd like answered is: What fraction of people spending on Shadow Lairs are addicts? If it's 5%, then I might be okay with that; if it's 50%, then I'm not.

Kickthebucket: You seem to be acting rationally. You are not paying for Shadow Lairs, because you judge them not worth it. Great.

Kirnan: Thanks for mentioning this term, "whale". I'd not heard it. I'll try to learn more about it, for example from here. To make a crude analogy to larger society, the whales are an upper class, the free players are a lower class, and the occasional, moderate spenders (including me) are a middle class. So the complaint is that Three Rings is making money entirely off the upper class, and leaving no opportunity for a middle class to flourish? I'll think about this some more.

Aurorra: Two hours of Spiral Knights is not worth $75 to me. But it might be worth that much money to other people. People like paying for experiences (even more than durable goods). For example, a Broadway play can easily cost that much. A crummy seat at a rock concert, with terrible sound and no real view of the band, can easily be $50.

Algol-Sixty: Your Puzzle Pirates example seems to mesh with my "middle class" idea above. I agree that the system you describe, where a middle class can participate, seems better than the current Shadow Lairs system. Your final comment is like Kickthebucket's; it's how I would expect rational consumers to act.

Twiddle: You raise a number of points, which I'll respond to next...

Twiddle says that Three Rings may not be highly motivated to keep Spiral Knights alive. Okay, they might not be. Perhaps Three Rings knows that Spiral Knights is failing financially, and is trying to extract as much money as they can in the next two months, before abruptly ending the thing. If this is true, then the complaints on these forums matter even less than I thought.

It's certainly true that what's good for the business might not be good for the consumer. That's when the consumer chooses not to buy. Over time, the business adjusts its prices until the consumer does buy. This idea fails hard in the case of necessary goods (food, shelter, health care), and fails somewhat in the case of a monopoly. But neither of those situations applies here.

No, I'm not constantly running the first few floors in a tier. I don't understand this part of your post. Is is about the Punkin King? Basil?

In your discussion of finding Shadow Keys vs. buying them, are you assuming (the now popular conspiracy theory) that Three Rings is planting Shadow Keys on the Auction House? Or are you just talking about Shadow Keys being sold by other players? If it's the latter, then I don't see the difference between your two scenarios, because the players selling them are presumably trying to recoup the cost of finding them.

Maybe Three Rings planned all along to have extremely high Shadow Key prices at the start, and then lower them later. This would let them milk over-eager early adopters (a common tactic in the consumer tech industry), and then appear to be responsive to customers.

I also hope that this Shadow Key system is not a sign of things to come, because I can't afford Shadow Keys, and I want to keep playing Spiral Knights. But at some point Spiral Knights will be done and we'll have to accept it, right? Is 800 hours of entertainment from a game all that I can reasonably expect? Or can I reasonably expect Three Rings to keep adding content as quickly as I can gobble it up?

Starlinvf, I know all that. I just don't understand why Twiddle brought it up in the middle of a discussion of Shadow Key pricing.

It's more like an arcade game that you paid 25 cents to play making you put in $45 to advance to a final level.

LOL

... start a real auction at the auction house!

Opinions are fine, trying to convince others when you clearly don't care about the content yourself is not - it's useless. I'm not claiming any moral high ground here, but i really can't stand the whole...

"i don't care therefore if you have a problem with this you should also not care, like me!" crap

That's basically what it boils down to; and it was more directed to the OP. I'd be more interested in the opinions of people who genuinely think this system is a good idea, rather than people who just discount it completely and think others should follow suit to solve any issues they have with it

Telling people to ignore something if they have a problem with it isn't really constructive, if you ask me. I also don't think trying to understand OOOs motives or marketing strategy is going to help sway anyones judgement on this matter either, especially when we all know that in the end its all about the $$$ (though i can understand that it might be interesting). Also it's not so much the pricing, more the format..i haven't spoken to a single person who thinks this is a good idea or isn't ticked off by how it was handled..the ones who did it though enjoyed it sure, but that just makes it even more of a shame that its blocked by such a dumb system doesnt it?

Personally the shadow lairs themselves dont bother me, im more worried what this means for the future of the game and what it means for any new content going forward

At least you aren't taking chances when you fill your car up on gas.

Oh, and gas prices are another can of worms itself. @w@

Complain on the forums, in Haven, etc.

Considering the track record for this type of feedback, I think your time would be better spent elsewhere. To reiterate a point not made in some months: your complaining on the forums goes nowhere. The good majority of the playerbase does not visit the forums, let alone support your little qualm with OOO. If you don't like the new content then don't play it, simple as that.

I should mention that I do like the Shadow Lair system. It is only for top-level people and is appropriately inaccessible by the good majority of the players. Many children these days are not used to having challenges presented to them in video games, and I think that's a shame.