...as it serves no purpose anymore and only causes major inconvenience (puts pressure to collect everything before it disappears).
Now that looping is fixed disable disappearance of crowns/heat over time...
I don't understand what you are trying to say - just what are you trying to justify? I clearly stated its currently purely an incovenience and serves no other purpose other than putting pressure on the player, the sheer fact that they disappear over time causes some people to act like dogs and ignore monsters around them to just get them.
Err, I miss my crowns/heat while finishing a fiend area though.. They lie somewhere in the back flashing while I try to run after them. And so they disappear.
Really? A major inconvenience? You suck.
Seriously though, Hearts, particularly, need to have a time limit on them, or players could end up backtracking through any parts of the level not closed off by a party gate if they get injured in a subsequent brawl - which is dull for the rest of the party, who have to wait for whoever's decided to trek back, and removes an element of challenge, because there's a significantly increased likelihood there'll be spare Hearts around if you need them. Yeah, it puts pressure on players, but that's the point. Everything puts pressure on players. It's called "challenge." It forces you to make a rapid, tactical decision between going for pickups or immediately engaging monsters.
On which subject, there are two very good reasons to prioritise pickups over fighting, even without time restrictions:
1. Many pickups are useful in fights. That guy making a beeline for the Heart drop instead of tackling the Lumber? Well, he's probably taken some damage, genius, and could really use some more health before throwing down with a walking tree. What about the guy going for the Vials? Vials are combat items. You use them in fights! It makes sense to stock up on them before you get in a fight.
2. Crowns and materials are automatically added to players' total without having to finish the level, unlike Heat and Minerals; so if you grab them before entering a melee, but then die during the fight and there's nobody to revive you, you've still got that stuff, so you've not come out at as much of a loss as you might've. This is absolutely a secondary consideration, but it's there - the primary reason for the time limit is still the "pressure" you're lamenting, which isn't a fault.
+1
As far as I know the point of the update was to prevent looping. Now that it is fixed, there's no need for the heat to disappear.
PS: It doesn't make much difference to me, personally.
Today I was soloing a T1 arena, heating low-star gear. It was the last room and I was picking off a horde of gremlin bombers in the bottom left of the arena. Much to my horror I saw crowns and heat start disappearing on the top right. There was no way I'd get over there safely, so I just kept killing bombers and watched my rewards disappear.
With looping fixed properly now that just shouldn't happen.
First, is looping really fixed? Or, has OOO just made it harder? Obviously, I don't loop and don't know anyone who does, so I can't really tell.
But, if looping is fixed, yeah, I would like to see crowns/heat going back to being untimed. I find I waste time going and picking stuff up, rather than fighting. It adds nothing to the game.
And, effrul, no one was talking about hearts not staying as they were since beta. No one is saying that vials/mats aren't useful. Actually, I'm not sure if any of your long rant is relevant.
Looping is fixed. Not harder, completely impossible.
Yeah, now that looping is fixed why make it disappear..
Cheers.
"First, is looping really fixed? Or, has OOO just made it harder? Obviously, I don't loop and don't know anyone who does, so I can't really tell."
Once someone goes solo/gets kicked from your party he can't invite anyone/noone can join him till the next depth (the party from which the person is kicked/goes solo from and the newly formed both get the Restricted flag), so yeah, looping has been fixed.
And Effrul, eh, you win the today's Froum Tryhard Award.
T3 + spiraling path + spike traps + turrets + melee enemies.
If you don't want your crowns/heat from sniping the turrets disappear your one and only choice is to slowly draw out the melee enemies to the previous room.
Paweu, Algol: I'm just trying to put some counterpoints out there, and explain why the time limit exists. No need to be snippy. I'm sorry I said you suck, but, well, you're describing a problem that I've never encountered; I don't think I've even seen Heat or Crowns vanish from the playfield.
Nonetheless, the point about pressure still stands - it's a challenge element, forcing players to make a snap decision between collecting drops or immediately engaging enemies. And it's never, ever proved problematic for me, during party play or soloing, to spend a couple of seconds grabbing stuff - and that really is all you need for Crowns and Heat, especially since they're hoovered up if you get close to them - before turning on the mobs, who, after all, are still going to be there.
I don't think removing the time limit is an inherently bad idea. I do think it's completely unwarranted.
I see no reason you can't grab crowns/heat before they disappear.
-1
Challenge element? Bu ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Guess what - vanishing crowns/heat were added after OOO noticed that there is a nasty exploit that allowed to loop the levels and collect drops infinitely without having to kill monsters every time at 10CE a pop. That was the one and only reason they added it, nothing more to it. Don't attach this challenge bullpoo and other made up by yourself value to this please, i scratch my head as to why would you even come up with this crap.
First time OOO's official stance on looping generally: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/23890
Here is the thread with the changelog from the patch which introduced it: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/23420
I'm sure if they reverted that rule, someone would find away to exploit it.... It'd only be a matter of time.
Effrul, you really shouldn't tell people that they suck for voicing an observation. Personal attacks aren't allowed on these forums.
Like Paweu said, the disappearing rewards were introduced not as a challenge but to remove a game exploit. The time that they are present was extended so that the exploit was still impossible but it would be less likely that someone would pointlessly loose crowns and heat for playing legitimately. It was never meant to be a challenge, and it isn't actually a challenge at all just an inconvenience.
When soloing, it is very easy to not be able to get back to crowns in time when in T3 arenas, Danger Rooms and the spiral path. I even had crowns disappear in a T1 arena because I was dealing with mobs in a logical manner rather than running around to grab some coins that only disappeared in order to avoid a defunct game exploit.
Now that they have code in place i believe it would be fairly easy for them to make a On/Off switch for this, so they could always enable it really fast after they feel like there is a need for it to be activated again.
that or raise the time limit on them past the practical limit, like 30 minutes. The only way i can see somone passing that limit is if they weight down a direction key so they can go afk and eat or something without losing thier clockwork progress.
.. And after 15 minutes you get kicked out of the game.
Anyway, what the heck is the challenge of picking up crowns/heat/mats? They do not play any role in your current battle and so isn't important to focus on.
I'm not sure why people think items disappearing is a problem. I've personally never seen heat or coins disappear, or even start to flash. The only way I see it being an issue is if you use extremely low risk tactics, such as long-range sniping, or extremely conservative kiting patterns. In that case, I like the idea that you have an incentive to make a dumb, daring move to try to get your loot, or face the fact that it may vanish forever.
Yes, it wasn't originally in the game. But that doesn't mean it is better off without it. I find it fun when there is treasure in an awkward position and I feel compelled to go get it. Granted, I do that regardless of the time limit, but I don't mind the additional incentive for recklessness.
It's an action-oriented game, and this is a change that encourages action. I feel it's a positive one.
I can't believe the amount of bollocks you can attach to something that was merely introduced to serve as a temporary counter-measure against an exploit. Like Culture said, even in T1 you can bid your crowns/heat farewell in some situations. Why do i still have to suffer due something that was introduced to fix something, but the thing in question is fixed already? And seriously, try to do those dumb daring moves in shock (fiend) T3 levels, most likely you won't just get hit, you will be wiped for any dumb move. The game wasn't forcing anyone to pull off suicide missions, now it is.
If you can't see the big image, best to not argue.
The time limit still serves a vital purpose. It prevents the advanced training hall from being stuffed with health capsules and vials.
Let me blow your joke - this doesn't affect consumables.
Really? I didn't know that. The more you know...
if i remember correctly, some1 mentioned an exploit where u kill monsters in the whole map and invite another character to pick them up
i dont remember this being connected to looping in any way, also.. were there any official responses to the question why this was implemented to begin with? if so, did they even mention looping?
the 2 links in #14 are about looping and the timer, but theyre separate, so they arent obviously connected..unless some1 can thoroughly explain how the timer itself would have contributed to reducing the amount of loopers
i still think, that 'some1, who cant pick up items in 90 seconds, doesnt deserve them' is an okay policy, because it isnt very hard to pick items in that amount of time
"if i remember correctly, some1 mentioned an exploit where u kill monsters in the whole map and invite another character to pick them up"
Yes, there is something like that, true. I'll admit that this is an exploit. The question now is, is it really harmufl? Are people abusing it? I think it is harmful but not attractive enough for people to abuse. But when you add to it the looping exploit it is a really different story because you could leave on the floor 1000cr and repeat picking it up infinitely. As it is currently is whoever that abused it now can still abuse it; just start the floor with 4 alts, simple as that. Too annoying to move with all characters? Get that-damn-not-yet-fixed-flourish and **** your alts.
I know just 2 levels in which it's not possible to collect some crowns/heat before timeout, due to noobs fooling around:
Aurora Isles - Stone Grove: There are 2 boxes south of the start area behind an energy gate. If a noob shoots them (though, it is difficult, because their location is lower than the starting area) it is virtually impossible to reach them in time, because there is one party button area in the way, with a door that opens only after you killed a coupla Wolvers while healer butterflies are present, too.
Aurora Isles - Lower Gardens: There are 4 boxes next to the exit elevator. If a noob shoots them and people are not on the party button in time, the door, only opening after a small battle, will prevent reaching the boxes in time. Also, in the section behind the western energy gate, another 4 boxes can be popped by throwing vials or some of the Drivers charge attacks. Unfortunately these boxes are behind {spoiler omitted} and thus can hardly be reached in time, if popped, without loosing massive amounts of health. However, i have the feeling, in this section the journey is the reward, anyways.
So tell the noobs not to shoot them. Idiots.
- So tell the noobs not to shoot them. Idiots.
To be fair...there a lot of players who don't listen. Telling someone else not to do something can only go so far....It's not as easy as you make it.
______
I always thought that the disappearing heat and crowns was for trying to lessen lag or memory use. That's my understanding of the whole thing. It happens in other videogames too, so I'm kinda use to it.
I defer the point on the original reasoning behind the time limit - I wasn't around for the beta - but you must have noticed that disappearing items is an extremely widespread game design trope, for, amongst others, the reasons I outlined in my previous posts. I didn't know about the looping thing and assumed that Three Rings used the feature for broadly the same reasons that most games do. It's not a "made-up value", it's something that game designers do on purpose.. I've worked with a number of developers in my capacity as an illustrator, this is stuff they have told me. I'm not just knocking this off the top of my head, you know.
As for it "not being a challenge element" - you quite neatly undermined that particular argument for me a few posts down - "try to do those dumb daring moves in shock (fiend) T3 levels, most likely you won't just get hit, you will be wiped for any dumb move. The game wasn't forcing anyone to pull off suicide missions, now it is." Well, um, it isn't. It encourages you to control fights, maneuver them towards the stuff you want to collect, if you're determined to collect everything that drops. You are not being forced to get the drops, but you are being forced to go out of your way for more difficult ones. It's possible to make a break for them, but it's hard. Do you see what I'm getting at with this? The time limit is making you balance your own safety against prioritising drops or monsters. It's a straightforward cost-benefit thing.
I see why you want it removed, I really do! But I don't agree! I am just trying to explain why. There is STILL no need to be snippy.
Culture: that remark was pretty clearly intended as a joke, and one which I explained and actually apologised for in my next post. I ain't see you calling out Paweu for his personal attacks (or swearing, for that matter). It doesn't particularly bother me that the guy fancies venting on people who disagree with him - oh noes, somebody was rude to me on the internet! - but come on, consistency.
Edit: Kreuz-Drache makes a good point, too. I don't know how much strain tracking drops can possibly put on the servers, but every little helps, right?
There's no reason to change the game mechanics just for a few morons. if they open boxes they can't reach that's their own fault.
There's no reason to change the game mechanics just for a few morons. if they open boxes they can't reach that's their own fault.
So yeah...the system was changed in the first place because of a "few morons" that were either looping or inviting alts, whatever the reason, that's why it was changed.
Anyway, for Paweu, I didn't like the first time limit they imposed, but the second one was a lot more fair and I don't really have much trouble getting the items I want in time anymore. BUT as a general concept, I don't like it because it was not actually an improvement that makes the game more enjoyable. As far as I'm concerned, it can go. But I won't demand it disappear. I mean hearts didn't use to disappear either.
Long story short +1, though I don't care much either way.
Can I haz heat and crowns disappearing, but party not auto locked back pls, thx.
I don't like playing alone and like I said in post #27 timeouts happen scarcely.
I would like to just have the heat, crowns, and mats be distributed on drop instead of pickup, and removed from the level instance so we can get rid of the annoying new party restriction. What do you think of leaving in the graphics and just increasing the "hoovering" radius to infinite? (leaving non-magnetic drops like hearts, inventory items and tokens as they are)
So i started playing pure bomber and i have to say, some crowns/heat have disappeared right before me. There isn't really any legitimate reason to force a player to change his playing pace in a level that by design doesn't require it through some anti-exploiting game mechanic that serves currently almost no purpose outside of pressuring the player. Please, now that there is really no way to abuse the on-ground drops Dear OOO, get rid off it totally.
I bet someone will come and defend the fake difficulty this creates, welp, in advance: w/e floats your boat.
Yes please.
There are also some places- like on everyone's favorite level, scarlet fortress, where you have to fight enemies with fire things....
That was NOT designed to have the player rush through it and then run around to prevent the drops from evaporating.
and @batabii
That noob that I'm yelling at not to break things like that-
-doesn't like me for yelling at him to do things correctly
-may not even speak English
-doesn't listen to anything I say
-breaks things before I can type at him
-just wants to play the game
There is a simple reason why hearts need to time out - if theres a heart on a trigger plate, no one can put a statue down on it.
+1 to any suggestions calling for the removal of totally unnecessary fake challenges, this one included.
"There is a simple reason why hearts need to time out - if theres a heart on a trigger plate, no one can put a statue down on it."
Heat/crowns =! hearts
I don't see a problem with heat and crowns disappearing, I tend to collect them quickly.
But I can understand that sometimes you're under pressure, and things can distract you or prevent you from reaching your rewards. Not sure why Three Rings added that disappearing feature. Maybe it was because players would throw vials to show what items were in boxes, in areas that require keys or energy to get to.
"Heat/crowns =! hearts"
Well yes I realise this.
I had presumed the same rules governing heart timeout were also in play for crowns and heat.
well if they cannot remove it entirely, they had best extend the disappearing time!
No point in doing this. If you cant plan ahead, or you just are not skilled enough to manage killing enemies and collecting loot in same time, its your problem.
There should be some pressure to collect stuff before it dissapears.
When you walk the street, and find money someone dropped, will it stay there forever? No if you dont take it sooner or later someone else will take it...
And what person before said, its to prevend possible exploiting, abusing vials to break boxes before actually reaching them to see whats there
You heard it here first, you collect crowns/heat before they disappear - you are a pro at Spiral Knights.
wow really?!? I didn't even know crowns could disappear since I always pick them up in a timely manner. I knew hearts could disappear.
On top of that, I don't see how keeping the crowns there forever was to prevent/counter looping. Only hearts would benefit loopers, but only once. Crowns/Heat disappear for everyone when a single person picks them up, so even if they stayed there forever it wouldn't benefit them if they looped. Maybe back then everyone had to collect their own crowns/heat, but that isn't how it works now. The timing element is probably more for the previous mentioned act of clearing a level and then inviting an alt to collect it all.
On top of that, if we are going to cry about the time limit, then we better start complaining about the party buttons. I mean, we've stepped on party buttons and then realized we left boxes behind that we could no longer collect. A noob mistake, but whatever.
Anyways, I don't think devs should waste their time "fixing" something that isn't really a problem. I'd rather they got the mission system and new boss out faster.
"wow really?!? I didn't even know crowns could disappear since I always pick them up in a timely manner. I knew hearts could disappear."
I don't expect a swordsman who facerolls monsters with his swords to understand that there are other ways to play the game that don't come to facerolling with swords (while the drops just come to you) and are about putting more effort on tactics and being defensive and those take more time mostly. And don't tell anyone to go and play in a certain way just because there is a flawed game mechanic punishing the slower weapons because thats saying "you can have fun, but you can't have the rewards you should have earned, even if your play was legitimate".
The concept of looping as I understood it was - Having someone sit at the entrance to an arena(or any other farm-able floor?) and to keep soloing off that "anchor", ??? then profit.
The way the new party system seems to work is that only a certain number of people can join the same party (this number sticks to anyone that solos, and decreases with each join) and once so many have joined it plops to 0 and party becomes restricted. (This found out by trying to invite 4 people to terminal for fsc.) With some jiggery pokery, looping is still somewhat posible, yet hard to do effectively. it would take a multitude of anchors, and a lot of pain to pull off, giving you a max of I think 9/10 loops if you're lucky enough.
TL;DR Looping isn't impossible, just really hard to do.
That being said, regardless of all this, I've never had a problem with vanishing drops, even in stratum6 arenas, because at some point you'll either pass the heat/crowns or you'll have a few seconds to, so if you have a problem you either need stronger gear, or better reactions.
"better reactions"
Since when is better reactions synonymous with teleportation techniques?
I don't see it as being too bad. I mean, unless you're being chased by mobs and you just have no way at all at getting your heat and crowns, you should have plenty of time to go fetch your heat/crowns. Not to mention they sort of attract(Or at least that's what I noticed.) to you when get close enough to them, so it's not that difficult.