Spiral Knights - Beasts are being left in the cold

Beasts are being left in the cold

30 replies [Last post]

Tue, 01/10/2012 - 22:49

Autofire

Beasts are being left out. They are probably the easiest family in the whole game, even before the patch. They have the least content, also. Here is my argument on why they need more attention.

Note: If you do not like reading walls of text, before you post, please, oh please read the TL;DR: right below the bold faced headers.

Comparison to other enemies
TL;DR:There are more enemies than beasts, and other families are being worked on more than beasts.

Here is the list of enemies when I got on(which was during the beta), not including bosses, exclusive and rare enemies:

Beasts:
Chromalisk(lizard)
Wolver(small wolf)
Alpha Wolver(large wolf)
::Total:: 3

Constructs:
Gun Puppy(Robot Turret)
Rocket Puppy(You can tell what this is, right?)
Lumber(Walking Trees)
Tortodrone(Big Turtle, removed in beta)
::Total:: 4

Fiends:
Develite and promo(small, normally blue, Plump guy)
SlikWing(Small Blue Bats)
Trojan(Horse with Shield)
::Total:: 3

Gremlin:
Gremlin Thwacker(Melee)
Gremlin Mender(Healer)
Gremlin Demo(Bomber)
Gremlin Scorcher(Burner)
::Total:: 4

Slime:
Jelly Cube(*silent*)
Blast Cube(*BOOM*)
Lichen(Plus big versions, may have been some status types)
::Total:: 3

Undead:
Kat(Ghost Cat)
Zombie(Skeleton)
::Total:: 2

Totals, from most to least:
Constructs: 4
Gremlins: 4
Beasts: 3
Fiends: 3
Slime: 3
Undead: 2

There was a good balance then. But look at how it is now, excluding the status ailment versions, and with new enemies in bold:

Beasts:
Chromalisk(lizard)
Wolver(small wolf)
Alpha Wolver(large wolf)
::Total:: 3

Constructs:
Gun Puppy(Robot Turret)
Rocket Puppy(You can tell what this is, right?)
Mecha Knight(Holds a sword and shield)
Lumber(Walking Trees)
Retrode(Zombie like enemy)
Scuttlebot(Four legs)
::Total:: 6

Drones:
Shankle(Spikes)
Wisp(Floating Mask thingy)
::Total:: 2

Fiends:
Develite and promo(small, normally blue, Plump guy)
SlikWing(Small Blue Bats)
Greaver(Black Bat)
Trojan(Horse with sword)
::Total:: 4

Gremlin:
Gremlin Thwacker(Melee)
Gremlin Mender(Healer)
Gremlin Demo(Bomber)
Gremlin Scorcher(Burner)
::Total:: 4

Slime:
Jelly Cube(*silent*)
Blast Cube(*BOOM*)
Lichen(Plus big versions)
Polyp(Shooting Slime)
::Total:: 4

Undead:
Kat(Ghost Cat)
Zombie(Skeleton)
Howlitzer(Undead turret)
::Total:: 3

Totals, from most to least:
Constructs: 6
Fiends: 4
Gremlins: 4
Slime: 4
Beasts: 3
Undead: 3
Drones: 2

Here you can see that all the numbers climbed, except for Beasts and Gremlins. Now the gremlins are OK, because they have been put in as a big part of the story, they have a group(which is the Crimson Order), and recently, Nick has hinted at the production of new gremlins. BUT, what about Beasts? We have never heard anything about Beasts recently from OOO but in a nerf patch. Aren't we going to have any new ones? You may think the boss was a new addition, but that was T1 and shadow lairs. The Beasts family really isn't getting much attention, or at least that is what it seems to the player base.

The saddest thing of all is that they even added in a new family, which is the drone family. (2 new ones, if you count shadow lairs, but you almost never go there, right?) This shows that they will make new families and enemies to add to those families, except enemies for the beast family.

Equipment we have is against them
TL;DR:We have a pure pierce sword, which can do the most damage, and we always have to have resist to them, making it impossible to gauge raw damage. (damage with out any resist)

Almost all of our armor(including shields) has normal resistance, and all Beasts deal a little normal. (OK, almost everything else does too) The exceptions to things with norm. resist are: the Drake Scale Mail/Helm and upgrades(which can give us a Beast bonus) and the Bristling Buckler, which both defend against pierce, and all Beasts deal pierce damage. This is unfair, as we can always have some resistance against them.

And then the weapons. Now, because FSC is the main thing most of us go to, most of us will have a lot of elemental weapons. This is good for the Beast family, but then you see a lot of [paying] players wielding snarble barb line swords, which deal pure piercing. This is very unfair, where as most piercing swords deal normal and pierce, so Beasts will take 1.5 times the normal amount. The snarble barb, on the other, hand deals just piercing, so the Beasts will take 2 times more.

What this means: Snarbolax is good at killing his own kind.

(As a side note, some of the most popular armor line comes from Wolvers, and this is the worst family. Makes almost not sense.)

Lack of special, hand made levels
TL;DR:There aren't enough beast levels, and Beasts don't show up enough in levels for other families.

Here is a list of special areas that may appear in each stratum type:

Beast: Aurora Isles, Wolver Den
Construct: Jigsaw Valley
Fiend: Dark City, Devilish Drudgery, Stygian Steeds
Gremlin: Deconstruction Zone
Slime: Scarlet Fortress, Concrete Jungle, Aurora Isles, Lichenous Lair
Undead: Scarlet Fortress, Concrete Jungle, Dark City, Candlestick Keep, Briar Bone Barrage

You may think the Construct has almost no levels, even less than the Beast, but Constructs show up all the time. In every run I've done to the end of a tier always contains several of these guys, where as Beasts seem very rare. As a matter of fact, all the levels that come before a boss contain gun puppies, and almost all of them have lumbers. Even Snarby's levels have gun puppies and lumbers.

Low Speed
TL;DR:Simple, they have low attack speed, and they can be dodged easy.

The Wolvers don't have a big problem with this, as they can dart around often, but Chromalisks are the main ones to suffer from this. All beasts have an excessive wind up time on their attacks. Chromalisks take just about as long to charge their tongue/slime as Retrodes do to charge their laser, and the Chromas don't even have as long range. Then they don't attack often anyway, cause they seem to wait a year to try to hit you. At that point, you are either a mile away, or beating all their scales off. The fix could just be speed them up, or give them another attack.

==================================================================
=Finally, to see the total number of updates since this has been made and show how =
=much Beasts are being forgotten, I'll add to this number each update/patch/bugfix: 0 =
==================================================================

I will add links to suggestions for more Beast enemies. Just post a link to one you find. Just remember that if you post something, don't post exact things such as how things look, or the way they act. This seems to cause the devs to not implement it possibly because:

They could be sued by the poster for not asking the poster's permission, and
They could implement it to act different, or look different, from how the poster said, which could cause some to become angry at OOO for making it different(I know this is lame, but some people are *ahem* like that), and
Posting all the exacts could spoil it for some players, causing OOO not be able to use your idea the way you envisioned it. If this is the case, maybe you could PM a game master? I don't know how that would fly, though, so don't do it without permission from one of the GMs.

AAAAAAnd, here is the link section:

Why does it have to be empty? D:

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 01:54

Mejezfeld

Simple. Raptors.

WE NEED RAPTORS

Nick mentioned them as being part of the concept for SK at one point, and I don't think it's too late to try putting them in the game for real now. They would be perfect.

My only request is that they should have feathers like real raptors used to have and thus look FABULOUS while kicking the player's sorry rear at the same time.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 03:05

Cobaltstarfire

" all Beasts deal a little

" all Beasts deal a little normal."

So do most other monsters last time I checked, even in T3 so this point is moot.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 03:18

Migake

Give me a raptor mount and

Give me a raptor mount and make a new Reptar boss. I will be happy then.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 04:13

Captobvious

*GASP* a new idea

How bout some owlites?

They are referenced to in the owlite feather, philoso feather and grey feather cowl+mantle and grey owlite shield
Why not make them an enemy?

Magician birds

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 04:18

Psychodestroyer

@Captainobvious

"How bout some owlites?

They are referenced to in the owlite feather, philoso feather and grey feather cowl+mantle and grey owlite shield

Captain Obvious strikes again...

owait.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 05:07

Jontlemen

The owlites were wiped out by

The owlites were wiped out by the Kats, who became cursed as a result. They don't exist anymore.
but who knows

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 05:18

Alice-In-Pyroland

Why are the individual

Why are the individual Devilites considered seperate enemies despite Lichens being grouped together? There's more difference between a regular Lichen and Giant Lichen Colony than there is between a Devilite and an Overtimer. Also you forgot Jelly Minis and Slag Guards.

It's also worth noting that in the dedicated Beast stratum there are no unique beasts (Bar Snarbolax? Is Snarby a beast like Royal Jelly and Roarmulus and classed or is it like Vanaduke and 'unique'?) despite both the Slime and Undead boss stratums having 'special' enemies like Jelly Minis or Slag Guards, or even Canavrons considering they only appear in UFSC and a few select Scenario Rooms. For that matter Ultimate Gloaming Wildwoods would have been an excellent oppurtunity to add some unique stratum-specific beasts, and instead the only tier 3-exclusive Beast stratum actually has more Undead than it does Beasts! Even in their own boss stratums they're overshadowed by another kind of enemy entirely.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 19:31

Autofire

@EchoezI've never done the

@Echoez
I've never done the shadow lairs yet, actually, cause I'm a free player. Oh, and the Develite thing was a mistake. This is what I get for working on it before bed. -_- OK, fixing. I also said no exclusive enemies. This means enemies you only see in a boss level, or they are really rare. Otherwise, I would have to do void enemies, curse zombies, phantoms, and other things like that. I'm talking about more general enemies that you see normally in the clockworks.

@Cobaltstarfire
This isn't true. Bullets such as ones from gun puppies, howlitzers, and even jelly colonies(some of you don't seem to get the idea of a jelly colony's bullets being pure pierce.) deal no normal, just pure one other type. What I was getting at was this: you either have normal or pierce resistance, so you can always cushion from them. It is possible, though, to not have any, say, shadow or normal, and then you could take the full blow from a zombie. But you are right. You usu. have resist to normal which equals to most things.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 07:14

Cobaltstarfire

There is a reason why I

There is a reason why I explicitly said MOST, not all.

And the rest of what you wrote needs to be rephrased because I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 07:27

#10

Autofire

@Cobaltstarfire

Oops, didn't notice that. (_)-(_)

I'm constantly going over things again and again. When I type things out fast, I get error prone. Sorry 'bout that.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 07:47

#11

Kalaina-Elderfall

I said this in another

I said this in another thread, but Alphas were really the only thing holding up the Beast family at all, and after they've lost their tracking the whole Beast thing is laughable. They don't even have situational enemies (i.e. phantoms, devilite overlords), other than Snarby who is the easiest boss. I mean they're BEASTS. These things are supposed to be frightening, but instead they're just lulz.

Definitely +1 to more Beast enemies. Chromalisks really don't even count (other than the Kleptolisks which somehow manage to beat me up in Treasure Vaults time and time again, but that's a personal issue).

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 07:53

#12

Autofire

@Kalaina-Elderfall I know

@Kalaina-Elderfall

I know why: when they cloak, they get far harder to see, and the moment they uncloak, they attack, instead of just uncloaking and staring for 5 seconds. Sadly, you only see this better skill when you go to treasure vaults, but those seem so rare.

Also fixed grammar errors. What you saw before was the result of me crunching my keyboard trying to finish before 11:00. This is a few hours later, after waking up and not being able get back to sleep. -_-

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 11:17

#13

Cobaltstarfire

Jelly Colonies actually do

Jelly Colonies actually do *only* normal damage. (I said defense before, but meant damage T_T)

But I still don't understand what you're trying to say. Beasts do Pierce damage, and there is armor that offers pierce resistance, I'm not quite sure how this is a mark against beast variety. Although I do agree that it would be nice to see more beasts, I also have a desire to understand what you're trying to say.

Edit: Typing fail

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:13

#14

Nordlead

"Jelly Colonies actually do

"Jelly Colonies actually do *only* normal defense."

this doesn't make much sense.

The lichen colonies have pierce defense just like every other slime family monster.

A lichen only does normal attack. The lichen colony and giant lichen colony do normal and pierce attacks (spin attack for both, spikes for the giant lichen colony)

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 10:27

#15

Batabii

I don't consider alpha

I don't consider alpha wolvers and wolvers to be substantially different, nor gun puppies and rocket puppies.

What we really need are more fiends. Trojans are very rare, and silkwings never attack. The vast majority of fiends are Devilites of varying ranks.

And yeah, undead. Which as of now is basically spookats, zombies, and howlitzers.

By comparison, the construct family contains lumbers, retrodes, scuttlebots, mecha knights, and gun/rocket puppies

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 11:18

#16

Cobaltstarfire

Sorry I meant to type damage,

Sorry I meant to type damage, but typed defense for some odd reason(/derp). Their normal tackle as you said does normal, and their weird spike doom does pierce.

Still don't really understand the OP's point about armors though, there's Normal/X armor for every damage type, there's no unfair "advantage" against beasts as far as armors go.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 11:30

#17

Kalaina-Elderfall

Pure damage is exclusive to

Pure damage is exclusive to Slimes. Pretty much all other attacks deal partial normal.

Wed, 01/11/2012 - 11:33

#18

Happyapathy

To some up the last few posts...

We need new enemies. Period.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 03:41

#19

Captobvious

@Kalaina-Elderfall

rlly i thought all enemies do pure on t3 partial on t2 and normal on t1
plz explain

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 07:20

#20

Trying

Go into T3 and get hit by a

Go into T3 and get hit by a lumber or something and observe how the bars coming off are both red and green

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 08:51

#21

Cobaltstarfire

Even better go almost

Even better go almost anywhere in T3 wearing armor that has no normal defense and watch all the red bars that fly off in addition to the yellow/purple/green ones. There's a reason armors like dragonscale and silvermail aren't very often used for anything other than aesthetics.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 09:12

#22

Rainingmetal

You cannot be serious? Beasts

You cannot be serious? Beasts are the worst kinds of enemies to encounter in the game.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:21

#23

Nicoya-Kitty

Rangerwill put together a

Rangerwill put together a nice list of normal damage sources in T3. It's a long list.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/33594

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 11:49

#24

Darkbrady

Not to totally interject and

Not to totally interject and derail here, but my attention just got caught by the coloured damage bars thing there. I've never really known about the different coloured damages and honestly never concerned myself too much, thinking it was either different values or just an aesthetic, but those colours actually represent damage type?
Would someone mind either giving me a quick overview of what each is, or link me something that does?

Much appreciated :)

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 13:12

#25

Nicoya-Kitty

http://wiki.spiralknights.com

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Damage

Red is normal, green is elemental, purple is shadow, and yellow is pierce.

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 14:33

#26

Darkbrady

Cheers for that. Derail over,

Cheers for that.

Derail over, I'll leave you to it :)

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 16:12

#27

Xylka-Mkii

http://forums.spiralknights.c

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/28678

Y u no implement??!??!?!?

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 00:23

#28

Skold-The-Drac

+1 to the above post.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 00:23

#29

Skold-The-Drac

+1 to the above post.

Fri, 01/13/2012 - 03:01

#30

Darkbrady

You mentioned that chromas

You mentioned that chromas are just worthless as a beast enemy, but right now in the Iron Bishop Gate on T3 there's a Power Complex:Wild Path that's primarily shock chromas, and you'd be surprised how annoying they can be. Hearty amounts of health, and the spit attacks just fly right over you and can really, really hurt.

Y'know, just if you wanna play with chromas on a larger scale than "that single chroma, somewhere along a wolver den" or the kleptos.

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Beasts are being left in the cold