Spiral Knights - Lets try to stabilize the price of energy at 3000 crowns.

Lets try to stabilize the price of energy at 3000 crowns.

156 replies [Last post]

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:19

#51

iammandler

Legacy Username

"non-paying" isn't necessarily a permanent status

Technically, there are two types of players: group A, people who have paid for CE, and group B: people who haven't. What some of you seem to be missing though is that there are people in group B who haven't paid for CE yet but are considering it. Most new players are in group B, and if their first impressions of the game are poor, then they will stay in group B, or leave.

The CE market favors two groups of people (more groups): people who have played for a long time (group C), and group A - people who have paid. For group A, this makes sense - they buy CE, so they get CE. They bring new CE into the economy. Without them, we wouldn't even have the option to buy CE for crowns (unless OOO manually injects CE, allowing people to buy CE for crowns alone). Group C got lucky because they were there when CE prices were lower, so they got more Cr/CE, and were able to climb to Tier 3 more quickly, giving them access to the more valuable loot/recipes/etc. Obviously, people in groups A and C are at even more of an advantage.

As I said, group A people pay for their market advantage, and that's how the game makes money. Fair enough. But do group C people deserve the advantage they got just because they started earlier? Obviously, people who've been playing a long time will more likely be in Tier 3 and thus have access to the most valuable drops - that's how MMOs work. The problem here though is that people who started earlier were able to advance faster, for the most part. I might be wrong, because this economy is really weird (2k for cutters? That only covers the energy cost. How is that profitable?) and there might have been other circumstances that changed things, but everything else being equal, someone who had to pay 3k/100 CE will be able to advance faster than people who have to pay 4k/100 CE. People in group C also probably have more money than most people, and so are able to control the economy. With all their crowns, they can buy a bunch of energy and resell it later at a profit, driving the prices up even more. Say someone spent 150k crowns when CE was 3000/100 for 5000 CE. They can sell it all slowly, 100 at a time, at the highest offer, slowly driving it up. They are at an advantage, and if they're smart about it, the advantage will only grow.

"It'll stop rising eventually," people say. It might; it might not. It becomes problematic when the high price of CE scares off new people, though. It scares off a bunch of potential group A-ers, which hurts the game's potential. Someone might play the game, spend their 100 mist energy, really enjoy it, but leave when they see another 100 CE costs twice as much as they earned with their 100 CE. First impressions are very important, and if they're bad, it's easy to lose potential customers. On the other hand, if energy prices (or costs?) are fair at first, but steeper later, people will be less likely to leave, as they've already invested some time in the game.

I am in group B. I haven't paid OOO anything. Yet. I play with three friends, and I can afford the $10. I was planning on buying 3500 CE and sharing it with my friends, but I've only played for under a week. The cost of energy has risen by almost a thousand already, and this is one issue (not the only one, though - I've seen people say that T2 jelly king farming is more profitable than T3 farming, and whether that's true or not, that's a troubling prospect) that I see harming the long-term potential of the game and thus my $10 investment. $10 isn't a whole lot, sure, and $10 for 5 weeks of mist energy is one of the most fair F2P price plans I've seen. I've enjoyed the game thus far - it's deceptively challenging, especially once I got to tier 2, and I hear it only gets more challenging, which is exciting. So, in summary, I'm a group B-er who's considering becoming a group A-er, but I really want to see how OOO handles this economic situation before I start paying on any regular basis.

Just off the top of my head, some potential solutions - lower energy costs on the low end (5 energy/level for t1, maybe make energy costs for crafting 10-25-50 for 1-3*) and possibly raise them on the high end (and of course raise the crowns gained in t3 if it's not up to par). This will help encourage new players to play the game long enough to get hooked. You could also advertise in advance a sale weekend, where you sell CE at a discount - $5 for 3500, or $10 for 6000, or something - which could help lower the price of CE, and repeat as necessary.

Just a few thoughts from a pretty new player who's really enjoying it so far and who wants to stick around, but at the same time sees some problems.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:19

#52

Dorael

mandler:

If you're thinking of buying CE isn't it better for that CE to be worth more Crowns though?

As to why Cutters are so cheap it's because people UV hunt. I got lucky with my Cutter and only had to make seven before getting a good UV but I have over 60 Haze Bombs on me and 40 Wolver Caps. That's just on me right now, I have no idea how much I've actually made. In that regard, it is incredibly easy to get to T2 now. You basically only have to buy 200 or 300 CE then sell it for Crowns then buy 2 star gear from players. Or you could just do T1 runs purely from Mist for a few days and buy cheap gear from others.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:38

#53

iammandler

Legacy Username

Dorael: yeah, that UV

Dorael: yeah, that UV business/cheap 2* items is one of the "other circumstances" that affect how fast people can advance I was talking about.

As for your first question, I'd rather my $10 goes to a game that lasts long than get a few more crowns out of my CE, and if the system is unhealthy, the game will suffer. I would probably use the CE I buy, too, rather than sell it, but again that's because I play with friends, and our crowns/mats/CE are basically shared in a single pool.

I guess I just want it to be fair for everyone. I don't think a F2P game has to split payers and non-payers so overtly.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:53

#54

Dorael

Too much speculation

Honestly the game is still really young, it's going to be a while till we see where it goes and how well the economy handles it. A lot of people on both sides will say whatever they believe but no one really knows for certain. The game being as young as it is it still hasn't seen anywhere near the traffic that it will over the next few months. As it becomes more well known and word travels, the incoming populace will likely have a huge impact on the economy but we have no idea what kind of impact that will be.

As to your thinking about spending money, I would say to not think about the big picture too much. If you enjoy the game enough to want to spend some money to play a bit more then go ahead and do so. If you don't, then don't. I think that's as fair as it gets.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 20:59

#55

Raul

That game has already started

That game has already started advertising on Facebook in the side ads bar.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:00

#56

Metaknight

boo hoo lets all feel bad for

boo hoo lets all feel bad for the poor cripple whose free game isn't free enough and needs to mention his cripple status just so we know why he cant pay moneys and drive cars and make love or be loved

(seriously stop feeding this troll)

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:01

#57

anisoptera

Legacy Username

This does have a very strong

This does have a very strong implication that non-players do not truly belong here, as they "contribute nothing to the game".

That's an inferrence you made. I didn't say that. I just said that 3O would make more money if, theoretically, every non-paying player left and only paying players remained. I also said that I just don't care either way. Not caring is not the same thing as what you're trying to say I said.

To me, non-paying players are neutral. They don't pay money, so they don't contribute that way. But they provide a nice base for things like the market. As far as I'm concerned, they're non-deterministic bots. 3O should be looking for ways to get them to pay money (and they are) so that they can, well, make money. But if they were all gone? The game would still be fun. I'd still have friends to play it with. I could still play solo. Etc.

So, I don't care. I care in the context of this argument because someone's entitlement complex is causing them to argue that my enjoyment of the game (as a paying player) should be adversely affected so that they can do what they want.

No, you really are not entitled to respect. You really are not entitled to anything in life except to eventually die. [...] I wish you the best, you are far beyond reasoning if you cannot understand how you are NOT entitled to anything.

It's like you're not reading what I'm saying at all. Do you understand English? I said, "Uh. Everyone has to earn my respect, if they want it. By that same token, I'm not entitled to your respect, but must earn it."

Do you see that part where I said "I'm not entitled to your respect"? That's exactly what you said, isn't it? In fact, this entire sentence I just quoted of yours is the essence of my entire argument. You're acting like you're disagreeing with me by saying exactly the same things I've been saying.

In an ideal world, you would be respected, for simply being a human being.

Actually I would go one step further and say that in an ideal world you would be respected for being a conscious entity. I actually hold this point of view. However, just because I may respect you as a conscious entity, that doesn't mean I respect the things you represent, which is what I am referring to when I talk about respect here.

Obviously it is just a game, but that does not stop some people from have strong feeling about it.

Having feelings about something is not a basis for argument. Unless the argument is about those feelings. It's just a game. You won't die if you don't get to play more than an hour a day. You won't even be hurt in any meaningful way. You'll just maybe be a little more bored that day.

Half of the people want energy to change, the other half do not.
Where are you getting this data that half the players want energy to change? Wouldn't we see maybe a few more people here arguing that case if so? I'm like the first person I've seen actually devote any time to defending the current system, but it's an enormous waste of time on my part and I really don't know why I'm doing it. I can definitely see why the only people complaining are on the other side of the argument - they have tons of free time, are terrible at the game, and no money. They have nothing better to do with their time.

I do, and yet I sit here typing words into a forum. It mystifies me.

If half the people left, leaving only the paying ones, the game would suffer. It suffers by the logic of 1) half the people leave, that just plain looks bad for a game, 2) those people will tell other people, who in turn will never go to it, 3) It is just bad business to only cater to half of the possible population.

Let's assume that your first premise is actually true. Half the people leave the game. How do we ever know that half the people have left? I guess we can look at Haven numbers and see that there are half as many instances open. But that doesn't really tell you anything. So:

1. For it to "look bad" there has to be some way for people thinking about playing the game to see that half the players have recently left. There isn't.
2. However, some of the paying customers will get their friends to join too. It probably wouldn't cancel out entirely, but it'd be mitigated.
3. It is bad business to cater to a segment of the population that will never pay you. If someone is never going to pay you money, then anything you do for them is wasted resources of some sort.
I'll pull tech business into this. Apple does not cater to people who want a cheap computer. They simply don't make anything that costs less than $500 as a desktop or $1000 as a laptop. Their phones start at $100 with contract.

Despite this - despite them seemingly ignoring the vast market of people who don't want to pay this much for a computer or phone, and only catering to the theoretically smaller population willing to pay a premium for higher quality - their profit margins are the highest in the entire industry. They just posted double profit growth from last year. This, from a company that is completely ignoring the existence of a large market segment.

"Number of units sold" is not the metric by which success in business is measured. "Profit in dollars" is. If you're not paying money to 3O, you aren't contributing (I'll start saying "directly" here) to their business.

You seem to have forgotten the countless other players who have posted in regards to this very issue. Maybe you have been paying to much attention to these few threads, but there are many others.

See above explanation for this phenomenon.

And now, from my favorite poster.

I'm just going to ignore most of that emotional dribble

Calling it "emotional dribble" does not give you a free pass to ignore it. You're ignoring it because you can't actually argue with the content.

But go on.

oh, wait. You can't. You just made the same argument I refuted up there at the start of this post. You quoted me saying something that doesn't actually contradict the other thing.

Oh well.

You were saying dear?

SUPER SLAM!! Cute. Speaking of tone, way to get condescending on me as soon as you learn I'm a woman. That's definitely a great attitude.

I am not your "dear". Please do shove THAT up your ass.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:03

#58

anisoptera

Legacy Username

I guess I just want it to be

I guess I just want it to be fair for everyone. I don't think a F2P game has to split payers and non-payers so overtly.

Have you ever played a single F2P game in your life? This is the LEAST overt separation I've ever seen in any of them.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:04

#59

anisoptera

Legacy Username

boo hoo lets all feel bad for

boo hoo lets all feel bad for the poor cripple whose free game isn't free enough and needs to mention his cripple status just so we know why he cant pay moneys and drive cars and make love or be loved

I think I am just going to follow him around and post this in every thread he posts in. It sounds like a better use of my time.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:07

#60

Raul

Personal attacks have no

Personal attacks have no place on this forum, if you continue to do so I WILL report you.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:08

#61

Soutalgon

Legacy Username

@anisoptera: I apologize for

@anisoptera: I apologize for misreading the word earned in my haste. However, no one has to earn your respect. you also do not have to earn anyone's respect. Respect is such a prideful trait that can be twisted on so many ways. respect, or the lack of, has led to the murders of human beings and was actually used as a valid defense when the time of the trial came.

So I should really be asking you, anisoptera, what is respect?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:08

#62

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Personal attacks have no

Personal attacks have no place on this forum, if you continue to do so I WILL report you.

You started it with your incredibly sexist attitude.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:09

#63

Soutalgon

Legacy Username

@anisoptera two wrongs do not

@anisoptera two wrongs do not make a right :)

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:13

#64

Metaknight

You put it out there, buddy,

You put it out there, buddy, whether trying to make a point or make us feel bad or whatever... so sorry, thats fair game.

You are also the authority on respectful discussion, so yes I will be taking your warning very seriously.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:27

#65

iammandler

Legacy Username

Have you ever played a single

Have you ever played a single F2P game in your life? This is the LEAST overt separation I've ever seen in any of them.

I don't play most F2P games because I generally hate the price model - I'd rather pay for the game or a monthly subscription. I said in my post that this is the fairest one I've ever seen. Also, I should have phrased what I said more clearly - I meant in general for F2P games, not SK specifically.

That being said, it doesn't mean it can't be made more fair, or that it can't go horribly awry.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:31

#66

Raul

"Calling it "emotional

"Calling it "emotional dribble" does not give you a free pass to ignore it. You're ignoring it because you can't actually argue with the content. But go on. oh, wait. You can't. You just made the same argument I refuted up there at the start of this post. You quoted me saying something that doesn't actually contradict the other thing. Oh well."

Because it is emotional dribble, you let your emotions get caught up in you replies and you spout nonsense that I'm sick of refuting.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:34

#67

Raul

Sexist

Sexist attitude?

AHAHAHAHHAHAHA

OH man, lol you have no idea who you are talking to do you? That statement is soo far off base it's ridiculous.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:36

#68

legion_ai

Legacy Username

A crazy concept

Why do you care so much about a free game, Anisoptera. You seem very hard set on telling all those beneath you that you are the Divine Goddess of Spiral Knights knowledge. People want to play a free game for free, and they can. Some people want to pay money to do those same free-to-play things, but faster, so let them. But those who play for free do not want to have their game suffer because of the greed of those who pay for a free game. So how about this concept, find a game you like, buy it for a large amount of money, keep spending money, enjoy. Instead of this endless fun you could be having, you stay here, talking down, mocking, and enraging those who honestly want to have fun and play.

So in conclusion, I shall summarize. Shut up and enjoy the game, whilst talking to no one or go and find a game which is set up just the way you like, with only a few paying customers. Might I suggest Star Wars: Galaxies, I hear it's crap.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:45

#69

Sven

Legacy Username

A price ceiling seems to come

A price ceiling seems to come up in every, and I do mean every, free to play game with a cash shop. The OP's suggestion is basically to create a cartel that would attempt to create a price ceiling. A price ceiling can do one of the following two things. Either nothing will happen, because supply and demand intersect at a price point lower than the ceiling, or it will cause a shortage. A shortage results from demand exceeding supply, in this case because the price set by a ceiling is less than what would result under a free market. Effectively, far more people would wish to buy CE at 3k than people willing to sell CE at 3k. The demands of the masses would go unmet, and in this particular scenario, since the price ceiling isn't law, the cartel would fall apart and people would pay more than 3k to get their CE. Unless you could control the actions of every single player in the game, the ceiling could never be enforced. Even if it was, it would make everyone worse off anyway. People would not be able to obtain as much CE as they would want and would be forced to play/craft less.

tl;dr
If you feel that CE prices are too high, feel free to sell for cheap. However, don't expect anyone to sell for cheap to you for your benefit.

Also, even though it always seems to fall on deaf ears, I would encourage everyone to at some point in their life take some basic economics courses or at the very least spend some time reading up on basic economic theory.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 21:48

#70

Metaknight

no one has any idea who to

no one has any idea who to they're talking to godofskype1 when they talk with you, beyond some forum jerk (oh right, and the afforementioned physical disabilities of some nature). does that mean you are female? or else, some sort of.. feminist man?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:15

#71

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Because it is emotional

Because it is emotional dribble, you let your emotions get caught up in you replies and you spout nonsense that I'm sick of refuting.

You haven't refuted a single thing I've ever said. You can't be "sick of refuting" it, you've never done it once. Every time you respond to me you basically say that you've ignored all my arguments because of some reason or another. I don't like you either, but I at least respond to your entire posts instead of cherrypicking a few things that aren't really my arguments at all.

Also, no emotions here. I don't care. I keep writing because, well, I don't know, but I don't really care. I have the game I want. I know 3O isn't going to cave to your ridiculous demands because I know you're wrong and so does 3O. 3O made the game the way it is because they know how F2P can be made profitable. I can see why they made the design decisions they made. I know they're not going to change because to do so would break their model, and they know it.

So really all I'm doing here is trying to explain why you're wrong and why you shouldn't be wasting your time arguing this. And I'm wasting my time doing it. I think I get some sort of twisted amusement at watching you squirm and avoid actually saying anything of substance.

That statement is soo far off base it's ridiculous.

Oh look. There you go, claiming that what I'm saying is false, without actually bothering to explain why. Please explain why you called me a "chick" (a demeaning term) and "dear" (also a demeaning term when we are not familiar) immediately after learning my gender, if you are not a misogynistic ass.

People want to play a free game for free, and they can.
Yes.

Some people want to pay money to do those same free-to-play things, but faster, so let them.
Yes.

But those who play for free do not want to have their game suffer because of the greed of those who pay for a free game.
That's their problem. The game isn't free. It did not spawn spontaneously from the mists of time. Real people were paid real money to develop it. Real money is spent to maintain the servers it runs on. Real people are paid real money for supporting it.

None of these people benefit in any way from someone playing the game for free. Again: you can't pay server bills with crowns.

If your game "suffers" because of the existence of money, well then.

So how about this concept, find a game you like, buy it for a large amount of money, keep spending money, enjoy. Instead of this endless fun you could be having, you stay here, talking down, mocking, and enraging those who honestly want to have fun and play.
If people honestly want to have fun and play perhaps they should pay for the game they like. I do.

Shut up and enjoy the game, whilst talking to no one or go and find a game which is set up just the way you like, with only a few paying customers.

I really like the way this one is set up. I am arguing against people who want to change it.

And again. I don't want the non-paying customers to leave. I also don't want them to stay.

I do not care.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:23

#72

Negimasonic

Hmm since this topic also

Hmm since this topic also seems to keep going on the usual negativity path, I can also throw this in here for no real reason :D

Add a lot of people, skip the levels you want, save energy, earn more crowns, lessen suffering ^-^

/spam

And that should be the final time I c/p that as I've done it once already hehe. Now, back to your essays forumers, AWAY!

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:24

#73

Raul

"You haven't refuted a single

"You haven't refuted a single thing I've ever said. You can't be "sick of refuting" it, you've never done it once."

Yes I have, but you haven't been listening and are too caught up in your own bullcrap to see it. Several other players have also refuted what you have said.

"Oh look. There you go, claiming that what I'm saying is false, without actually bothering to explain why. Please explain why you called me a "chick" (a demeaning term) and "dear" (also a demeaning term when we are not familiar) immediately after learning my gender, if you are not a misogynistic ass."

I demeaned you in no way, get over yourself.

"I really like the way this one is set up. I am arguing against people who want to change it."

They are arguing to change it because it needs changed to save the economy which is slowly crashing.

"And again. I don't want the non-paying customers to leave. I also don't want them to stay. I do not care."

This is beyond illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

Like I said before, your attitude sucks, especially towards me, NOW and other non paying types.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:25

#74

Raul

I like you mostly. I even

I like you mostly. I even talked to you ingame, however doesn't' this scheme if you will, cheat the system in place?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:36

#75

Senshi

Legacy Username

No, that's not the problem.

I have been watching this, this being the debate over energy, paying and non-paying players, and the overall concepts of the game, for a while now. In doing so I have begun to note multiple trends that, to put it simply, are rending this game in two. This debate over energy and players, is very quickly escalating from a debate, one I might mention is epitomized by the "leftist" views of GodofSkype1 and the "rightist" views of anisoptera, to a civil war of sorts. The overall problem, from my stand-point is that if this game is not damaged by the energy crisis, then it will be by the player base being firmly divided against each other. Although you, anisoptera, have commented on how there is no middle-ground, both of you must agree, this is growing into a major problem for the game and the community.

No, this is not the problem at all. The problem, to the extent that there is a problem, is that certain players have not accepted that the game is structured the way it is, and others have accepted it and are responding to their ranting. All these same debates have been had over -years- about the doubloon oceans on Puzzle Pirates. The doubloon payment system is still there and the Spiral Knights crystal energy system is modeled on it.

Since this is a new game, and the developers are responsive to suggestions for improving it, I suppose people are under the misapprehension that writing enough posts that are forceful enough (however poorly thought out) is going to make three rings change their fundamental business model. I find this... unlikely.

I'm not particularly fond of the system, actually - I'd prefer a straight-up subscription model even though that would mean I'd be forced to pay real money that I'm not currently paying at all. But the system is what it is, and I'm perfectly content being a free player in it, and might even buy some CE once or twice in my life, if enough content comes out for me to keep playing.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:31

#76

Metaknight

@senshi

*golf clap*

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:34

#77

Negimasonic

@GodofSkype1

eh? You talking to me with the second post? If so, no exploitation there.
Last I checked, you can't do something like send a friend to a depth then tell them to wait there and run it again and again. An old update fixed that (before I learned about it and before my go solo idea was implemented). Either way, that's not important. This is an expansion on EXISTING gameplay, you may or may not be in a guild, but that's one of the benefits of being in one, up to 100 random players to drop in on at any time and the game tells you where they are and what they're doing.

However, we all know that you can't expect to see all 100 guild members on at one time, so make use of your friends list for more benefits. This is existing functionality, I'm just trying to promote it actually being used. I party with random people now just so I can add them if the run is successful so I can jump in on future games of theirs. I don't "have" to work with them thanks to kicking options. And I get to save time and in essence, energy. This also helps if they have friends doing similar things because by joining a party they joined, I get the same benefits ^-^

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:41

#78

alkanshel

Legacy Username

Eh, I'd like a hybrid system

Eh, I'd like a hybrid system (sub/micropayments). I'm willing to pay for energy at the moment, but I'm waiting to see what new stuff comes out. If this is a game I spend a month on and then get bored of, I don't feel like it's worth it to me. On the other hand, if I'm still interested later on, I'd gladly put the money down.

It's one of those things. Any game can capture my interest for 3 weeks to a month; I'm that kind of addict. What matters to me is...do I still care after?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 22:53

#79

Raul

yes they need a way to quote

yes they need a way to quote crap

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:35

#80

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Yes I have, but you haven't

Yes I have, but you haven't been listening and are too caught up in your own bullcrap to see it. Several other players have also refuted what you have said.

No. Those were not refutations. You gave no reason for why you should be entitled to play the game for free any time you want except "they said it was free". That is not a reason. I have asked for reasons why you think the way you do and have been met only with "I've ignored this post because " or you insulting me.

I demeaned you in no way, get over yourself.

You don't get to decide that. Your words were demeaning. You demeaned me. You also called me an idiot and ignorant several times ("ignorant" was being used in your case to say "I don't have any real arguments for you, so I'm going to say that you don't understand mine").

They are arguing to change it because it needs changed to save the economy which is slowly crashing.

What evidence do you have of the economy crashing, besides "I can't play forever for free"? Where is it written that the goal of the CE system is to allow that to happen?

I see the economy booming, personally. Crowns cost less CE to buy, but items are cheaper as well. You claim that it is harder for newbies to get started. While it may be true that it's more difficult for newbies to get to the point where they are able to self-sustain, it is not harder to "get started" in any other sense. You can basically pick up a full set of T2 gear for free if you hang around Haven long enough. You can make it yourself if you want for the cost of the recipe and alchemy because 2* mats barely cost anything at all anymore and it's even easier to come by lower ones.

And if you spend 75 cents on the game - less than the cost of a 20 ounce bottle of soda - you get enough CE to dive for hours. You can sell that CE in this supposed "crashing" economy to pick up around 10K CR; easily enough to buy yourself a full set of T2 gear if you're picky about what you want to wear.

I mean, look. It's a game. People that are good at the game get to play as much as they want for "free". ("Free", because someone's paying, of course.) People that are bad, or haven't been playing very long, can still play for free, but they are limited in what they can do each day. And each day they play they accumulate more wealth. They get closer to that breakpoint where you can dive and make a profit on CE.

And every time someone else hits that point, the goalposts move. Every person that is running for "free" on CR-bought energy puts a little more of a load on that economy. As the average CR income of a dive goes up, the price of CE will rise to match it. People have to be paying to support the free players. This is true of any game which allows free players.

This is beyond illogical and makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry about your brain.

Like I said before, your attitude sucks, especially towards me, NOW and other non paying types.

My attitude toward you may "suck". Perhaps that's because you're a clueless, entitled, cheap, whiny misogynist that couldn't string together a coherent argument if his life depended on it. Also you're clearly terrible at the game, because if you were any good at it, you'd be playing instead of here arguing with me about how hard it is. (The fact that I'm good enough at it to self-sustain yet am also here continues to mystify me.)

Good thing this is just a game and your life doesn't depend on your skill in it, huh?

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 23:36

#81

anisoptera

Legacy Username

yes they need a way to quote

yes they need a way to quote crap

An apt choice of words.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:13

#82

Raul

I am really really REALLY

I am really really REALLY getting sick of your elitist attitude.

Your attitude towards me and other non payers is ridiculous and illogical.

I have frankly had it up to here with you.

Then you want to insult that fact that I am a cripple when I specifically said no personal attacks, is beyond more then enough for you to have lost what little respect I had for you.

You have got some nerve.

No, I didn't demean you in anyway/shape/form so get the hell over yourself. Would you like me to demean you? Because I got a whole list of things right here. I have been MORE then nice to you given your completely out of control elitist attitude and personal attacks on me.

You have stated you don't care about the non payers one bit, and again this might be hard for you to comprehend but WE MAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE. We are the life blood of the game, if we left there wouldn't be any damn players on the game but a small few who would then leave because there isn't a point to it all.

I don't need evidence of the economy crashing except all of the threads that have been made, the rising inflation rate, and the stock market crash-like tendencies I am seeing. You cannot get anything for free in this game but gel drops, because EVERYONE has those. T2 mats still cost crowns to buy, the cost isn't negligible to someone in T2.

"People that are good at the game get to play as much as they want for "free". ("Free", because someone's paying, of course.) People that are bad, or haven't been playing very long, can still play for free, but they are limited in what they can do each day. And each day they play they accumulate more wealth. They get closer to that breakpoint where you can dive and make a profit on CE.

THAT is the EXACT reason the market will crash and why it's forcing people to pay to play. The market is on it's way to crashing. How dare you say free players are putting a "load" on the economy. NO, that is not true of any game that supports or allows free players, most games don't allow free players to the extent this one does.

I don't know where you live that you are purchasing a 20oz bottle of soda for less then .75 cents but uh congratulations. It costs about a 1.75 here where I live. I also do not even have that little of money to drop on the game, apparently you don't realize just how poor crippled/disable/unemployed people are.

And again you personally attacked and now insulted me and my intelligence, you aren't better then me so shut it. I am not playing the game because I am slowly seeing the signs of a tanking game and a tanking economy, I also don't care to sit around town all day and try to sell mats to afford the still rising prices. I do not suck at this game just because you say so.

All of your points have been refuted just as they were before, but you can't accept them and you continue to argue with me. You really do not know who you are arguing with and because I am a cripple I can devote the time to sitting here and going back and forth, I am more stubborn then you guaranteed and I will make you bang your head on a wall in frustration.

Edit: GODDAMNIT I still can't bold! grr

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:43

#83

hawkn

Legacy Username

Grow up.

Free to play: Able to play for an unlimited amount of time, with restrictions on levels, gear, or access to things such as potions. I would not classify standing in town because you are out of mist energy "Free to play". I'm not saying CE is impossible, or even necessarily hard to get. Now anyways. That doesn't mean prices will stay where they are however. Prices WILL rise to 8-10k CR per 100 CE. They will continue to rise until players can literally not afford it, and then they will drop to the maximum people will pay. That however leaves no room for equipment upgrades. 4-6k is about the max a person will in general make in a T2 run (all of the levels in a tier). The other 2-4k you are expected to make is off of drops, by selling them in town, by spamming the chat, and hoping someone will through the wall of text spot your advertisement. The trade system is flawed in itself as it is. With the lack of an auction house, players must stand around for hours (literally, and please don't say I'm wrong here, or you're a liar, you have an IQ of about 70 [look that one up], or you are one lucky person) in order to sell those items you scavenged from the game. Sure, you can make sales, but it's inefficient, and it promotes spamming in chat channels.

One will also likely make the argument "Oh, save your mist energy for crafting, stop the QQ". This works, up through 2* (if you only plan to craft one piece a day), as a single 2* piece costs 100 En to craft. But what about people who (for some unfathomable reason), wish to do T3? They must spend 200 En per item, 15k CR per recipe, 2.5k in fees, and material costs (if they did not find every single piece on their own). At current market rates, this equates to 21.9k, plus 100 ME for a single item, assuming you found the recipe yourself, and gathered all the mats to craft. However, if players are spending all of their money on CE, that leaves a grand total of 0 CR for crafting, or in this case, progressing in the game.

Not that progressing in the game means anything. "Congratulations, you've reached the core, seen all of the content, and probably wasted countless hours in a game with nothing worth doing!". There are 2 bosses. And if someone were to spend enough money, within 5 minutes of entering the game, they could essentially be in all 5* gear, and have nothing left to do.

People who think they are high and mighty because they manage to survive in the game without spending money are not special. Anyone with half a brain can do it. Sure an auction house would make it easier for someone like me to make a killing just flipping things alone, but the devs have shown no signs of adding something that will only benefit the game. If you pay for your CE, well, thank you for attempting to keep CE prices at a manageable level, but since this game is marketed as "Free to play", 80% of your player base is going to pay a whopping $0.00. I'm sure those of you who can think on an abstract level (basically anyone over the age of 12, with rare exceptions) will realize that this is a flawed system. Since (I'm estimating) 80% of the players use CE to run dungeons after their ME runs out, that means supply < demand = inflation. Economics 101.

If you think the system as it stands works to keep players, you are delusional. It's meant to make money. That is what every game company does. But when you scare off new players with a high cost of entry, a game falters.

The system needs work, and some reason for anyone who 5* to continue to play. I bought my fair share of CE. Not because I needed it, but because I thought I'd try to support 3rings. But now this game bores me, the community (for the most part) makes me lose hope for humanity, and I have no auction house to manipulate.

People need to get their heads out of the clouds, stop acting like they know what they are talking about, and let the economy work itself out. It will either reach such insane prices, 3rings will have to come up with a new CE system, or things will level out, people will accept paying 8k for CE as the norm, and life will go on.

TL;DR - Learn to read you sad bag of flesh.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:48

#84

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Ok, I'm going to respect your

Ok, I'm going to respect your effort to actually try to make arguments, even though I've already answered them, by reiterating my refutations.

No, I didn't demean you in anyway/shape/form so get the hell over yourself.

Again, not your call to make.

Please explain how you are the "lifeblood" of the game when you pay 3O absolutely nothing for the privilege of playing. The "lifeblood" of the game is money. The thing you aren't paying. It costs 3O some amount of money to run the game, and you aren't contributing to paying that bill in any way, except to provide a backdrop for paying customers.

Also you have no evidence that you make up the "majority" of the player base. You are simply making that claim because, if true, it might support your argument. You have no proof. Perhaps the majority of the playerbase actually has paid 75c or more. I don't know. I know a few people who have paid, though, so the number's probably larger than you think.

When I say I don't care about non paying players I mean specifically that I do not care. I have no emotions one way or the other. Free-only players are a neutral entity in this game.

Explain these "stock market crash-like tendencies" to me. Also please explain what inflation rate you're speaking of. Further, yes. They cost crowns to buy. You can get enough crowns to buy those mats in a single T1 run. If people won't give you T2 gear for free yet because they already have 50 of it from UV farming, they will be soon. Vendoring items isn't worth it, it's what, 10cr? I'd rather give it to a newbie myself.

Inflation would mean you pay more CR for items than before. That is trending downward. The only thing trending upward is the price of CE.

You are only forced to pay to play if you aren't good enough to make a profit on your CE and want to play more than you get ME every day. You haven't explained how the market is on its way to crashing. CE gets bought and sold constantly.

Free players put a load on the economy. It's just a fact. It's not a value judgment. In a literal real-world load sense and also a virtual economy sense (which is what I was actually referring to). In the real world sense you are using server resources that you do not pay for. You are putting a load on the servers. You put the same load on the servers and staff as paying players do; the difference is, you're not paying.

In the sense I was referring to, free players that are supporting themselves by making CR from runs that exceeds the value of the CE spent on that run, every free player adds a little load to the economy on that side. The more people you have that want to buy CE with crowns they made from diving, the higher the price will get. The more people that buy CE with real money for whatever reason and sell it on the market, the lower the price gets. That's how supply and demand works. At some point the number of free players can outstrip the number of paying players willing to subsidize those free players at the level they are running; this will force them to make more CR to buy the same CE. Paying players will get more CR for their money because the price has gone up.

It is not an argument to say "How DARE you". It's just an emotional outburst. Also, the fact that most games don't allow free players to the extent that this one does supports my argument, not yours. This is the most forgiving F2P game I've ever seen. You admit this too. And yet here you are, complaining that it isn't free enough. Just because you want really hard for it to be true that free players are magical fairies that don't cost anyone anything ever and also magically make server bills cheaper, that doesn't change reality.

Should I add math or reading comprehension to the list of things you don't have a grasp of? I said that 75 cents is less than a bottle of soda. Not more. What the hell kind of stupid argument would that be.

And I guess I'm sorry you don't have 75c to spend on the game. Did you know that instead of posting on forums or playing video games with your time, there are things you can do online to make money? Like, without getting up? If you really are that crippled that you can't leave your chair, there are still things you can do to make money. Some of them even pay pretty well, but there are things you can do for tiny amounts of money that don't really require any skill or thought. Hell, it looks like you like to write a lot of words. Some companies will pay you like $10 to write a 500 word blog post about something. That's like 3500 CE. Couldn't take more than an hour.

And again you personally attacked and now insulted me and my intelligence, you aren't better then me so shut it.

I will admit that "You started it" is sort of a childish thing to say, but...

I am not playing the game because I am slowly seeing the signs of a tanking game and a tanking economy, I also don't care to sit around town all day and try to sell mats to afford the still rising prices. I do not suck at this game just because you say so.

Please enlighten me on these signs that you see. Also, sorry that you don't like to participate in the economy. I now feel completely justified in saying that you literally contribute nothing to this game. You don't pay 3O, you don't participate in the community except to whine about how the game isn't free enough, hell, you don't even play very much. I care even less about you as a player than I do the random guy spamming up Haven trade about his 1-4* mats. At least he's contributing something to the game, even if it's just white noise to me.

All of your points have been refuted just as they were before, but you can't accept them and you continue to argue with me.

Yes. All of my points have been "refuted" just as they were before. Which is to say, not at all. You have no evidence for any of your claims, and many of them are blatantly false. Please respond to this post in its entirety with actual evidence-based answers.

Do not ignore it because of some made-up reason that you have so that you can fill another two pages with pointless bickering until everyone has conveniently forgotten your original points that were destroyed so you can repost them in the hopes that this time, someone won't point out how they have more holes than swiss cheese.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:53

#85

Raul

Why is it you are able to say

@Hawkn Why is it you are able to say what I think and feel but am unable to say?

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:52

#86

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Free to play: Able to play

Free to play: Able to play for an unlimited amount of time, with restrictions on levels, gear, or access to things such as potions.

Why is your definition of free to play specifically designed to exclude this game's model?

And it's not even true. Farmville is free to play. You can't play that for an unlimited amount of time. You run out of things you can do unless - wait for it - you pay money. Mafia Wars? Same thing, you run out of energy (whoa, wonder where that name came from) but if you want, you can buy more...

Just because you wish that was what "F2P" meant doesn't make it so.

Free to play means that you can play the game for free. That's it. That's the whole definition. It's right there in the title. There's no "free to play, pay for potions, levels, ..." or anything.

Also this game can be twisted to fit your personal definition. At no time are you refused the ability to log in. If you have zero energy, it doesn't prevent you from playing. You just can't play the part of the game that involves shooting things or hitting them. You can log into Haven and do as much trading as you want.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:53

#87

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Why is it you are able to say

Why is it you are able to say what I think and feel but am unable to say?

Please respond to this post in its entirety with actual evidence-based answers.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:59

#88

anisoptera

Legacy Username

Also, I don't know what point

Also, I don't know what point Hawkn's making but I'm kind of thinking he's agreeing with me.

I definitely think an AH would make this economy actually, well, an economy.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:03

#89

hawkn

Legacy Username

@Anisoptera If the

@Anisoptera If the "lifeblood", aka the player base who pay for CE with CR were to leave, that would mean people who pay for CE with money would have nobody buying their CE. Paying players lose their regular CR income, and would have to run dungeons to make their CR. Since no one would want to buy CE because the pay real money for it, the price would drop. People would no longer need to buy CE with real money now, until prices rise again. It would just be a wave motion for CE prices.

My point isn't to agree with you. Did you even read it? The market isn't healthy, and if you think it is, something is truly wrong with your understanding of economics. It's only profitable if you bother to flip, which without a better way than chat channels, isn't worth my time.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:08

#90

anisoptera

Legacy Username

If the "lifeblood", aka the

If the "lifeblood", aka the player base who pay for CE with CR were to leave, that would mean people who pay for CE with money would have nobody buying their CE. Paying players lose their regular CR income, and would have to run dungeons to make their CR. Since no one would want to buy CE because the pay real money for it, the price would drop. People would no longer need to buy CE with real money now, until prices rise again. It would just be a wave motion for CE prices.

This is not a crash. This is the natural actions of a healthy market.

Anyways, I fail to understand "You started it with your incredibly sexist attitude.". "Chick", and "Dear", are not "demeaning". It's like saying I should call a female sexist because they say "Dude" or "Bro", or if an older man says "Son".

No. You do not get to define what terms are demeaning or not to me. "Chick" is the word for a baby bird. Do you see how a name that is synonymous with a weak, helpless and immature animal might possibly be a bit different than "Dude" or "Bro"? Perhaps a bit demeaning?

"Dear" is a term that is used two ways. One way is when you are familiar with a woman and you call her that in friendship. In this context it is not demeaning. However, it is also used by someone (usually male) that wishes to be condescending to a woman. As it was used in that post.

Did you bother to read my post, or are you too preoccupied arguing over something neither of you can or will change?

Well personally I don't want it to change. I'm happy with the way the game works right now.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:11

#91

Raul

@Anis I agree with you, we

@Anis I agree with you, we need an Auction House, I honestly can't think of anyone who is against it.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:18

#92

hawkn

Legacy Username

First of all, farmwille, and

First of all, farmwille, and all of the crap on facebook, should not even be considered to be games. They are money sinks, and designed 100% to be addictive, and get your money.

Second, a healthy economy fluctuates, yes. But not to the extent that people can only pay for one thing or another. If people can buy one or the other, but cannot afford to dive, and get new gear at the same time, something needs to change.

I can make good money in the game. I do. But this game's payment model is so messed up, it ruins the fun gameplay.

That said, I don't really think that I'm going to get through to you. Believe what you like. On that note, I'm going to go to sleep, and probably not come back to the game for a month. And guess what. The game will have gone through major patches/changes, or the player base will be dead. I don't have to sit here and argue with someone just to feel like I'm right. I don't need to question the intelligence of others in order to feel superior. I made my point.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 01:41

#93

Raul

[b]No. You do not get to

[b]No. You do not get to define what terms are demeaning or not to me. "Chick" is the word for a baby bird. Do you see how a name that is synonymous with a weak, helpless and immature animal might possibly be a bit different than "Dude" or "Bro"? Perhaps a bit demeaning?[b]

This is ridiculous, I didn't demean you with chick. Knock it off or I am going to think you are a femnazi.

However my dear statement was totally condescending and I never denied it either. However, condescending and demeaning are NOT the same thing.

*I dont want the economy to change either but prices just keep rising and eventually it's going to crash.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 03:52

#94

LobsterHime

Legacy Username

That's not how bigotry works...

You don't get to choose who you offend (unless you intended to be offensive, in which case you have no argument here) or how. This isn't the first time I've seen you be unnecessarily antagonistic, GodofSkype1. I wouldn't be surprised if you no longer had forum access once the mods wake up; maybe not today, but it will happen in the near future if you don't watch yourself.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 04:53

#95

Raul

Actually I did nothing wrong,

Actually I did nothing wrong, she just threw a fit over nothing, even still I still as of now, I have done nothing wrong.

I also offended no one because I wasn't intentionally offensive, if she took offense to it, that's not my glitch, it's hers.

You are correct I can be a bit antagonistic, but it's usually not on purpose. I am what you call a bit rough around the edges and sometimes my take no crap from anyone atittude gives people the impression that I am meaning to be antagonistic, which is usually NOT the case.

I am blunt and I say it how it is.

I really shouldn't have to explain myself and I still haven't personally attacked her like she did me.

Furthermore, while I am thinking about I"m going to counter with, don't even say I called her a B#$% because I haven't.

I am nothing but respectful to women and I don't appreciate her calling me misogynistic and constantly saying that I demeaned her when I haven't. I demeaned her in no way/shape/form. I also asked her if she would like me to deamean her because I can, even though deep down I do not like to do such things to the wiminz.

She is completely way off target with her accusations and that is final.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 05:26

#96

Tristana

Honestly? I mostly get what

Honestly? I mostly get what anisoptera is saying. She's a bit harsh and blunt about it but its fairly realistic. Although I only have one thing to say about it.

There are a good portion of players who play online games to play with others. I know this sounds like Captain Obvious but there's more to it that entails. I have plenty of friends who love to game but only believe in purchasing games 'once'. They don't like DLC, they don't like "free to play" trying to squeeze more money out of them than a standard title.

I have some friends who don't budget well and game because its one of their cheaper hobbies and they want to spend as little as possible to be entertained; online gaming does this well as opposed to real life.

I have friends who simply don't want to be gyped or rely on an economy of strangers in a video game and will go out of their way to wait it out rather than play at the time.

These examples extend and do exist. I know a lot of people who quit pay MMOs and guilds that break up when all their friends stop playing, even if they are personally satisfied with the game themselves-- in that regard I'm one of those people. "Free to Play" allows some flexibility to where if I have the cheap-ass friend, or the friend who doesn't believe in monthly subscriptions, or the broke friend or even others who are equivalent-- I can still try to hook them or hang with them. Without playing with said friends, I would rather just play some single player games instead. The entire point of finding an online hack and slash-collect-o-thon is the playing with friends aspect.

It can be said I could buy them energy and the company makes money That's true. But then I have friends who are uncomfortable with being lent or given money for something and they'd rather escape from the feeling of being indebted, even if told that there's no string attached.. Not to mention how impractical that can become in other games (Subscriptions; have done that for some friends before).

There is a Market and use for people who are outright 'Free' and do not invest a single cent in the game. And making it impossible for them to hang out and play with people who are willing to pay is a great way to demotivate said paying players.

---

Despite this example supporting/showing my respect for the purpose behind free players, I do have one beef though. I'm extremely tired of these forums prattling on about how the economy is ruining the game for brand new players who are stuck in tier 1. I find it impossible to believe. The game comes with mist tanks and can add more for them, and more importantly-- I'm just tired of newbies being used as a scape goat for why the system can't work.

If the newbies have a problem with the game then let them come in and say it. And if you're so concerned about them, then help them. There are days when I know I personally don't have time to play-- so I log on and use my mist energy for free to help people get to tier 2 faster. Quit using these people for your selfish agendas for cheaper Energy/doomsday speeches and actually help them if you're so concerned. Helping people get to Tier 2 is not only easy to an established player but a great way to introduce them to your Guilds and make the community thrive. You know, the thing you keep claiming you care about with your hearts of gold.

But I doubt it because I'm pretty sure they're just being used as Agenda examples and nothing more.

Edit: Typo~

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 08:07

#97

Dashiva

Legacy Username

@Anis #32 Good God. You are

@Anis #32

Good God. You are either trolling in epic proportions or you are seriously illiterate. I'm not even trying to insult you I am genuinely concerned for your mental well being and intellectual progression.

"I guarantee I am older than you are."

If that were true than it is truly a sad day for us. Let's also not get into the fact I was referencing behavior, not age. But I'm sure you knew that. Am I right?

"Just one? There were like five in yours."

Interesting how you didn't point any of these "flaws" in my arguments, nor did you argue them, nor did you even say anything at all relevant to what I said.

"This is the first time you've been right all day. It's too bad I never said this or anything like it. (I'm assuming you mean "keeping all your money in crowns", because 'subsidizing' does not mean anything that works in this context.)"

ORLY? "If energy sells for a pittance then there's no value in spending money to convert to crowns." - You

By converting CE into crowns you are literally subsidizing the crown market. You are putting more crowns into the market and (partially) paying for new players or F2P players. Which funny enough is exactly what you hate so much. This is because there is no reason for a paying player to use crowns other than to vendor or crafting costs. Which you don't need to convert CE to do since you get these crowns by default by not having to spend them to get CE.

"The words are English, but this doesn't make any sense at all. I don't know what you mean by getting "more CE by selling items/mats". In case you hadn't noticed, you can only get crowns from the vendors, and they only take crowns. You have to sell to players to get any decent amount of money. Alchemy and diving cost CE. Alchemy costs CR both for the recipes and for the actual act of crafting. That's sunk CR - it doesn't go back into the system, unlike buying mats/items from other players, which DOES go back into the economy."

It makes sense if you know how to read. Note that reading includes comprehension and not just knowing how to pronounce things as you "read" over them.
'More CE by selling items/mats". Any mats or items worth selling are sold and purchased with CE. Do you think Magnus has ~50,000 CE because he bought it all with real money? Laugh Out Loud at you.

Of course alchemy and going into the Clockworks costs CE, what is the purpose of bringing that up? It has nothing to do with anything I was talking about.

Alchemy and recipes cost a pittance of CR.

And you go on to ramble about more irrelevant things. Yadda yadda.

"The fact that CE is the normalized currency has nothing to do with the crown economy at all and everything to do with the fact that CE has a fixed real-money value. It should be the normalized currency because 1 CE = $.003 last week, today, next week, next month, next year."

You misread what I said. Normalized as in, people are using CR less and less and less as they get farther into the game. CE is becoming the normal currency. CE is no longer going to be an "extra" something to get you through the game a little more efficiently it is going to BE the game. Everything you do will be to get CE to get something that will help you get more CE etc.

In all these posts you bring up how much CE costs in real world money and it's totally and absolutely irrelevant to what EVERYONE has ever said.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:33

#98

hawkn

Legacy Username

"Hello? What do you think a

"Hello? What do you think a business does? What, is a $60 retail game somehow less designed to get your money? Just because you don't consider them games doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with you; or that they're not incredibly popular."

I'm pretty sure that if you actually read my older post, you would notice that is exactly what I said. However, most AAA games at least aim to be entertaining, and provide some feeling of accomplishment, or fulfillment, not the feeling that you need to continue to get better. Zynga should feel proud of themselves in fact, that they have convinced so many facebook users to play their applications, and have convinced so many people that they make "games". I will NEVER acknowledge them as an actual game development company until they can create something on par with games from as far back as the '80s. They have a great system to get people's money, and keep them coming back. That is all it is.

Also, my point that I was attempting to make, and the one that nobody here seems to be capable of comprehending, is that the economy as it stands works. But prices will hit somewhere around 10k CR per 100 CE. And then it will just be a pain in the butt for everyone who plays, no matter how smart, skilled, or just good they are at the game in general.

And please, how about we keep this on topic. I cannot tell if Anisoptera is trolling, or just feels extremely entitled. I find stupidity and poor grammar offensive (and I even have minor dyslexia). Do you see me complaining about those things, or demanding apologies? Interesting fact: The world doesn't revolve around you, and getting in a petty argument over demanding an apology (due to a term 95% of females I know would not find offensive) makes you both look like you are 12.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 11:48

#99

anisoptera

Legacy Username

I cannot tell if Anisoptera

I cannot tell if Anisoptera is trolling, or just feels extremely entitled.

Haha, I'm the entitled one here. Right. This post just drips of privilege.

The world doesn't revolve around you, and getting in a petty argument over demanding an apology (due to a term 95% of females I know would not find offensive) makes you both look like you are 12.

You're right, the world doesn't revolve around me. But you appear to think it revolves around you, because your opinion is apparently the only one that matters.

You deem this argument "petty" and dismiss it while saying that 95% of "females" (a term I only ever see men that are trying to dismiss a woman's complaints use to describe women) you know would not find it offensive. What about the other 5%? Are they not worthy of your respect? Have you ever considered that the 95% are just used to being called that demeaning term by now, or that they don't want to take up this fight when you or someone else uses the term, for fear of being called a "feminazi", "petty" or immature?

Whenever a woman (or any marginalized group) stands up for herself in this way she is dismissed as though her feelings on the matter are unimportant at best; at worst she is called even more demeaning terms and it is mansplained to her that she is just seeing offense where there is none.

The word "chick" literally means an immature, helpless, weak animal. Explain why somehow, when that term is applied to a woman, it magically loses that connotation. It is nothing like "dude" or "bro". Neither of those terms has another meaning that is derogatory. "Son" is possibly derogatory but nowhere near the same as "chick".

Why is an apology so hard to give? Why are you so afraid of admitting that something you said could be offensive? You haven't trotted out the "It's just a word" argument yet, but I'll preempt it: if it's just a word, why can't you give up that one word? There are thousands of other words in the English language that are not demeaning to women. Use some of those.

Fri, 04/22/2011 - 12:28

#100

hawkn

Legacy Username

When did I ever say my

When did I ever say my opinion was right, and yours is wrong? If you said the sky was pink, I'd simply take that as your opinion, present my case as to why I believe it's blue, and move on.

You keep bringing up the exact same argument again about the dictionary definition of "Chick". The 95% percent I mentioned do not find it demeaning - I literally asked a friend of mine who is a woman if she would find it offensive if a man she did not know called her a chick, and she said no. In fact, some could take it as a compliment ("Hey, I met this chick today, she was nice, and we're going out on Friday."). I'm pretty sure the other 5% would be offended, but then again, I tend to not hang out with people who take everything offensively. "Chick", in my mind, is a synonym of "Guy", simply because they are used in plain English (not proper mind you), mainly in everyday conversations between a group of friends, or equals. If I were talking to a superior (which you have not proven yourself to be), I would likely use "Lady", or "Man". If you were insulted by the terms "Chick", or "Dear", you have my apologies. We could get into a debate on where these terms stem from, but in all honesty, I don't feel like going into how our society starts it from birth, and it continues on from there. Personally, I think you sound like the kind of woman who is (to a degree) feminist. Not that it's wrong, but you seem to be looking too deeply into the meaning of it. It's a slang, nothing more, nothing less.

Continue to call people sexist, elitist, etc, if you like. The title of this thread is "Lets try to stabilize the price of energy at 3000 crowns.". And that's why I came here to talk.

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Lets try to stabilize the price of energy at 3000 crowns.