Personally, any player that considers them selves 'good, skilled or pro' in this game should have an excellent understanding of shield bumping, shield charging, and if you're a swordie, you should be able to to accomplish the consecutive initial strike tech on any sword. Also being able to prevent incoming attacks by flinching targets with strikes, rather then shielding and tanking it would most definitely be required. I see too many people shield their way through a group of mobs where instead they can effectively shield bump + flinch. Those three things I mentioned are probably the only 'self-learnt-techniques-through-experiencing-the-game' that exist, and will mainly come across by being a swordsman. Unfortunately gunning and bombing would not make as much use for any of these techs (except the charge) and unfortunately do not have any other unique 'self-learnt-techniques-through-experiencing-the-game' like the initial sword strikes...... which is where struduls point comes across. So in a way you could call someone less skilled in spiral knights for being a bomber/gunner..... yet this doesn't mean their ability as an overall gamer is 'lower'. It's general consensus that swordies are op and gunners/bombers fall below the average contribution towards the team, which is due only to the game design. Anyway, spiral knights itself doesn't have a very high 'skill' requirement or learning curve, and you gunners and bombers are taking this too seriously.
Most Skilled PvE Guild
What he said ^
Talking, or referring to skill in a opinionated thread is a pointless thing to do. If someone doesn't agree with what you describe as skill, then, you disagree, and it turns into a argument. Pointless. But let's look at some of Strudul's definitions and/or examples of skill, shall we?
''-Use Swiftstrike Buckler or Barbarous Thorn Shield only''
Now I know some people are getting controversial over this, but here's what I have to say about it. It entirely depends on the style of gameplay that the player uses. Skill is NOT defined by someone's own opinion, as Dancijen put an example of via Dictionary.com. Everyone has different views on what skill is, and if they have different views to yourself, then you have to accept it. Some people find things hard. Some people find things easy. That's what would define what type of skill we are discussing here.
Using wolver is common sense, not skill.
For god's sake - I've been fighting this battle for too long now. All this prejudice against people who use the wolver gear. Wolver gear was put in the game for a reason people, so it could be USED. Yes, alot of people use it for obvious reasons. But 'skill' applies to that too. You would have to harness the ability to get the advantage of the extra variants it possesses. And when everyone decides to use the wolver gear, everyone gets into a hissy fit. What would happen if everyone started using the Divine Set all the time, you wouldn't moan about that now would you? So if everyone likes to use a certain type of equipment, rather than whining and moaning about it, rather why don't you get it? I fail to see a legitimate reason for that sort of complaining.
How is Three Rings the most skilled guild?
Hurr. You did NOT just say that. If I can voice my opinion into the statement, it's because they have crowbars, and have to power to ban you. Have a problem with that? Go rant at them, not us.
A more skilled player would (and should) take offensive trinkets over defensive.
... So you're saying a offensive player has more skill than a defensive player could ever have? There are various ways to get skilled at this game, and playing offensively and defensively are both very good ways at getting this way. How would I know? I do not play offensively. I play defensively. I find it more effective. Also, for defensive trinkets, there's these things called HEART TRINKETS. Now.. they're defensive trinkets! And you say that you should use offensive trinkets rather than these? So a defensive player should stop using defensive trinkets and instead use offensive trinkets! Joyous!
Skill is about having the ability to do something.
Lol no!? That's called capability, not skill. Skill is having the ability to do something well.
I have said enough in this stupid and opinion-based thread. And yes, I did voice my own opinion in this post. It's not like I'm going to speak for Strudul here am I?
"For god's sake - I've been fighting this battle for too long now. All this prejudice against people who use the wolver gear. Wolver gear was put in the game for a reason people, so it could be USED. Yes, alot of people use it for obvious reasons. But 'skill' applies to that too. You would have to harness the ability to get the advantage of the extra variants it possesses. And when everyone decides to use the wolver gear, everyone gets into a hissy fit. What would happen if everyone started using the Divine Set all the time, you wouldn't moan about that now would you? So if everyone likes to use a certain type of equipment, rather than whining and moaning about it, rather why don't you get it? I fail to see a legitimate reason for that sort of complaining."
I think you are supporting me here...
"Hurr. You did NOT just say that. If I can voice my opinion into the statement, it's because they have crowbars, and have to power to ban you. Have a problem with that? Go rant at them, not us."
Just gonna ignore this :p
"So you're saying a offensive player has more skill than a defensive player could ever have? There are various ways to get skilled at this game, and playing offensively and defensively are both very good ways at getting this way. How would I know? I do not play offensively. I play defensively. I find it more effective. Also, for defensive trinkets, there's these things called HEART TRINKETS. Now.. they're defensive trinkets! And you say that you should use offensive trinkets rather than these? So a defensive player should stop using defensive trinkets and instead use offensive trinkets! Joyous!"
Yay conflict, I can deal with this!
Right lets see....
I am indeed saying that being defensive is a hell of a lot easier than being offensive. I am not sure how you find being defensive more effective...
And your damn right I think heart trinkets should not be used. If you have the skill (meaning you are not taking damage/dieing or are in control of what damage you take) then why would you need more health??? There are plenty of hearts and pills in levels if you really need them. Offensive trinkets are much more useful to a skilled player.
"Lol no!? That's called capability, not skill. Skill is having the ability to do something well."
I think you either missed the point or took it out of context. The point was you should be able to do something that requires skill, however you do not need to be doing this 100% of the time to still be skilled.
For example.... Lets say soloing darkfire vanaduke in proto armour means you are skilled. You are capable of doing this, but you do not have to do it this way every time you want to kill him. You have the ability to do it, but you don't always do it. Make sense?
Playing defensively... i'd say would require less skill.
The point of being 'skilled' in anything is to have the ability maximize the output of your game play, which in spiral knights is to be able to finish the run in the least amount of time with the least amount of damage taken.
This is why most games may have time limits placed on them, as you are forced to rush the game yet still stay alive, which is accomplished through skill. People even have speed races to see who's better. If I recall correctly, there was an unofficial tournament on spiral knights to see which guild could run through FSC the fastest without any deaths. The more skilled and winning team would be the one to play offensively would it not?
I feel you've just dug yourself a hole by saying that playing defensively is just as skilful as offensively, playing offensively while suffering as much as you would being defensive is literally a universal law found in ALL games :|
Agree with everything apart from the speedrun bit :/
When people speedrun, they skip out killing a lot of enemies. However, this is not offensive or defensive (just stupid).
But obviously at points where killing enemies is required and you can't just run past, offensive is fastest :D
"I know I'm mocking you in a sort of mean way... I feel like you create these kinds of threads to be a show off. This thread doesn't have the effect that you're wanting here. You're saying... look these people are good according to what I say is good, because I'm awesome and you all should only ever listen to anything I have to say because the only opinion that matters is mine and the only time you should have an opinion is when I give it to you. I'm not saying that is your intentions... or you're that way at all. To get the effect that you're wanting, the kind of discussion you intended... the topic could have been approached sooo much differently."
Please do continue.
I am not sure how this is my showing off....? If anything I am doing the exact opposite. I am asking people there opinions on who is skilled.
It could have been approached differently, but if I don't define what I am looking for then a good answer can not be acquired.
Think of the OP as my requirements, the idea is to find a solution that fits those requirements, not change them. You can suggest alternatives, but in the end, the goal is to fulfil the requirements. So far only one person has really managed to do that.
___________________________________________________________________________________
I'm only going to address one thing because you, strudul, clearly didn't listen to what I said so I'm going to break it down in clearer terms.
I said it came off that way of you showing off, that the effect you're trying to get is not what you're getting because of how you approached making this thread. Then every reply from then on has come off as... "I'm strudul and the only opinion that matters is my own." I don't know if that is your honest intentions of this thread, but I'm going to say what you're searching for is not what you're getting because of how it has been said.
Basically it came off as... this is what I think makes a good pve guild and they are only good if they have these things. It's okay to have that opinion, but what you're asking is that for everyone to comment to have that SAME opinion when they do not have those opinions. So, by opening up the conversation by asking, "what do you think makes a good PvE guild and why?", It lets people show and form their own opinions about what they think is good, and lets you state your own opinion still. You didn't have to list in the post... "these are my guide lines as what's a good PvE guild and they HAVE to stay within this because this is the only thing that matters".
If you want this thread to be a productive thread, people need to have their own opinions. It's completely okay to disagree with their opinions... but that's what makes your opinion yours and their opinion theirs.
I'm not saying you're self-centered or anything, I'm saying how you're presenting yourself in this thread is coming off like you only care about yourself and only want your opinion to matter. If you want people to take you seriously in and out of this game then you need to understand that right there. How you present something and word it is very important. It's about listening to what other people have to say and consider them. We all want people to listen to us and accept us. Part of that is getting excited and passionate about something and sharing our thoughts. Hopefully, the listener will be open minded and at least consider our thoughts. You don't have to always agree. Disagreeing and debating is normal... it's just about opening your mind and considering having a different opinion, taking someone seriously.
So, consider what I'm saying and get outside of yourself, outside of your head and go back and read your post from our perspective and maybe you'll see what we're trying to tell you.
Strudul is pathetic, and the more we actually argue amongst ourselves in his threads, as that is all we ever do in them, the more he will keep on throwing bait to make us angry.
Isn't there a term for people like Strudul?
@Dan
Showing off is not the correct term to use.
The thing is, it is my opinion. Whenever I give my opinion, everyone instantly rushes to raging and saying I am wrong. But since this is opinion....
At this point I have to backup and defend my opinion by giving reasons. Giving reasons and proving my points just seems to get people more upset.
My opinion was not created over night. My opinion comes from an extensive time playing spiral knights, especially with the more skilled, for lack of a better term, players.
Let me use Exileddread as an example (reason being, he is skilled, but also makes videos so most people know him). Most people would say Exileddread is skilled, no? And the criteria I set would fit him, no? So how come attempting to define traits of a skilled player creates so much of a stir. I am sorry, but to me it genuinely implies people are threatened/jealous. They realise they can not do these things and therefore maybe are not as skilled as they had hoped. Instead of accepting the possibility that maybe I know better, they go into a frenzy.
I have spent a large amount of time playing with and learning from skilled players, so I can honestly say I know skill when I see it. It appears that skill is a delicate topic, and I will admit I don't necessarily approach it in the best way possible, but maybe if people paid more attention to what I said and at least thought it through and tried it out they may come to see things the way I do.
I am pretty sure everything I just said will only make matters worse... but I really don't care.
I am not really asking people to have the same opinion as me because I know that just won't happen.
Example.... I personally am not religious, and disagree with religion. I would not try to convert someone, however I may still voice my opinion. I am not saying they must believe everything I do, but it would be smart to consider what I have to say.
So back to SK terms, I considered a lot of angles before I came up with my opinion. I have a lot of experience in this game, FACT, so just maybe, I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about. I put in effort to find out the best way to do things so I can be lazy later on.
Opening up the conversation and asking what people think makes a good PvE guild is not what I wanted at all.
1) I was not looking for "good", but "skilled". A good guild has many other traits (but obviously a skilled guild can have these too).
2) If I let others define "skilled" in this game, there would be a lot more chance that after I give reasons as to why I think they are wrong, I will receive much more backlash.
@Rawrcake
Grow up.
I believe the term is manipulative *evil laugh*
(epic hypocrisy is epic)
Okay strudul. You still didn't listen to what I said. That's okay. Someday when you're older and people still have the same reaction to you then as they do today maybe... just MAYBE you'll see what I'm saying.
Also, to me... a good guild is a skilled guild... it's synonymous in my mind.
Well, I'm tagging out. Have fun.
I can define skill for spiral knights and any other game.
A truly completely skilled player would be able to use any set of given materials at their disposal in any way they can that is not obviously impossible to do and be able to accomplish their goal in a good manner.
Done. Aside from that, I'll explain a bit more, because this may help people understand how I feel about this.
Some people chose to be gunners, some chose bombs, some chose swords. People may wish to specialize their skill on any one type of weapon, or chose to be diverse and split evenly between either. Some may want to upgrade some types of gear before others, some may want to upgrade evenly. Some may want to get trinket slots and extra weapon slots to help, some may chose not to for monetary reasons or purely for challenge. No matter what you do, it you yourself are truly skilled, you should potentially be able to complete any goal or task in this game with anything. If you had any random order of equipment on you every day in this game that you could not chose yourself, you should be able to do anything in the game that is possible for anyone else that is considered well equipped for certain situations. Maybe not as fast, or not as easily, but you should be able to do it. If you would not be able to do that, then you are not the MOST skilled. As I said before, people may specialize, and they are SKILLED in that field of equipment. Bombers are skilled as bombers, gunners as gunners, etc. These people are SKILLED, just not at everything.
My final thought?
If you can efficiently use what you have chosen to use in the game that is available to you without any trouble, I myself would call you skilled. :)
lol Strudul why do you try to reason with everyone when they refuse to listen?
Also, the way I try to use Drivers is fairly difficult. Maybe you already know this trick, but you can avoid the reload animation (which normally happens if you immediately shoot after a shield cancel) by switching weapons and back (you must bind weapons to keys to switch instantly.) It gives you a ~50-60% increase in Driver DPS if you do it properly, but it requires a great deal of focus on your fingers (for me, anyways.) Couple this with precisely aiming every shot to do the ricochet double damage.
I try to keep this up all the time I'm not yet in sword range of a zombie, and I can fit in a driver shot between every DA hit that knocks something slightly out of range.
The new Seerus mask is really nifty for blitzing through Vanaduke so I thought I might as well hybridize a little as it's both skillful and fun. Overall effectiveness though is still in question.
Sorry for going off-topic.
This turned into another skill discussion...I guess people still don't realize how ridiculous it is to mention skill in this game, a fortiori in PVE.
"It gives you a ~50-60% increase in Driver DPS if you do it properly"
Where is the math leading to this?
Anyways, If you don't like reading all of Strudul's posts, read this bit:
"So how come attempting to define traits of a skilled player creates so much of a stir. I am sorry, but to me it genuinely implies people are threatened/jealous. They realise they can not do these things and therefore maybe are not as skilled as they had hoped. Instead of accepting the possibility that maybe I know better, they go into a frenzy."
Anyone who disagrees with you is "threatened/jealous". Do you listen to yourself, Strudul? Get off of Spiral Knights, talk to people not in pixel-form or people that you cannot use a computer screen to protect yourself from, and gain some human qualities.
I have never seen anything more pathetic in Spiral Knights. At least Chris was just messing with everyone to have a good laugh at people who took his bait. The sad part about you, is that this is actually your personality.
@Rawrcake-Swag
In your own thread.
The main issue in this thread were regarding these points
-Does not require use of health trinkets
-Does not require use of high defence shield (can perform just as well with a Proto shield for example)
-Don't need/ use shivermist
And to no surprise, people got ticked off as they may fit in to those statements, however the key word there is 'require'. Which it seems like most of you didn't read. I use shivermist, I use a grey owlite shield. Do they help help? Yes. Do I 'require' it? No, but it just makes playing easier and makes the game more ENJOYABLE. Obviously it would be more 'skillful' to not use them, but why would I do that, or anyone else? That would be more challenging and require you to be more focused, in which 'skillful' players may accomplish. Perhaps if I were challenging myself, to test my own 'skill' then yes I would do that. Do you get the point?
"I'm strudul and the only opinion that matters is my own." - Where'd you get that?
As I already stated "playing offensively while suffering as much as you would being defensive is literally a universal law found in ALL games" (which is basically what those 3 points are trying to achieve). And this holds true no matter what you say. Rather then opinions, I would call them facts, however I guess I could say they were badly/quickly worded, thus people interpreted it in the wrong way. As already stated, the issue with gunners and bombers is unfortunate, as they would come across less situations that would require more 'skill' to overcome, as compared to swordies. So i'm just going to re-quote myself because I can - "So in a way you could call someone less skilled in spiral knights for being a bomber/gunner..... yet this doesn't mean their ability as an overall gamer is 'lower'."
And to finish it off, "Spiral knights itself doesn't have a very high 'skill' requirement", so you getting all defensive and provoked is idiotic in the first place.
Everything that can be said has been said, there's nothing further to discuss.
Just wait for D3..........................
When did I say "Anyone who disagrees with you is "threatened/jealous"?
You also seem to be struggling to grasp concepts of the English language.
So, quoting myself....
"So how come attempting to define traits of a skilled player creates so much of a stir. I am sorry, but to me it genuinely implies people are threatened/jealous. They realise they can not do these things and therefore maybe are not as skilled as they had hoped. Instead of accepting the possibility that maybe I know better, they go into a frenzy."
Can you manage those big words? Like 'how' and 'so'. Here is a dictionary so you can look them up.
Now, lets take professional basketball for example. If somebody defined traits that they have, others should not get upset because they do not fall into those categories. A super fast google returns this. Oh look at the comments. Yes, everyone does not agree with who the most skilful are (which was not the point of this thread by the way), but the readers most certainly are not crying because they were not listed. Do you realise how pathetic you sound now? Not everybody can be the most skilled because that is just not how it works.
But by getting all upset and lashing out, you are acting like a 5 year old who is not getting his own way. I am not saying you are threatened or jealous of me personally, but you are showing those sign towards skill. You realise you don't have it, you want it, you see the way to achieve it, you notice you can't do it, so you are just going to throw a tantrum until somebody gives you what you want.
So just to make you happy...
Rawrcake is the most skilful player in spiral knights. Everybody should play like him now. Do not listen to anything I said before this because he disagrees with it. I have not given any good reasons for what I think skilled is. Rawrcake said I was wrong though, so he must know everything.
"Do you listen to yourself, Strudul? Get off of Spiral Knights, talk to people not in pixel-form or people that you cannot use a computer screen to protect yourself from, and gain some human qualities."
Oh I lol'd hard.
Who has actual fights over spiral knights.... Come on, think about what you are saying. That would be some hardcore nerd rage right there.
As with my real life example, people are happy to discuss who is skilled and they don't have to have a real fight over it.
Realising you aren't what you thought you were has obviously struck a nerve, and I am sure that if anyone else on this planet was told they were not skilled at spiral knights they would break down in tears too. I am sure many children get disowned every year because they do not have what it takes to be.....A SPIRAL KNIGHTS MASTER!
Rawrcake is the most skilful player in spiral knights. Everybody should play like him now. Do not listen to anything I said before this because he disagrees with it. I have not given any good reasons for what I think skilled is. Rawrcake said I was wrong though, so he must know everything.
Even though I know you were joking here, that was pretty childish. You're acting as bad as each other.
I think you are supporting me here...
Now look, I am not supporting you nor challenging you. Heck no. I am speaking to everyone in general. I have seen plenty of people moan about people using the wolver gear, and I have no doubt that someone will say something in this thread about that soon. And yes, I know they are voicing their own opinion on the wolver gear. I have respect for that.
Offensive trinkets are much more useful to a skilled player.
You're speaking to a defensive player here. Oh ho! A challenge! Different playing styles affect and are harnessed by different players. Defensive players are just as useful as Offensive. Take a different game for an example. Teamfortress 2. Defensive players can guard intelligence/control points and that often is the most useful strategy. I don't want this to turn into a full-fledged Teamfortress 2 discussion, I was using it as an example. Yes, offensive trinkets are good for offensive players. And defensive trinkets are good for the defensive player. Heck, you can go the full throttle and use offensive gear and defensive trinkets. And I agree with you on Heart Pendants. The comment of 'Why need heart pendants if you have skill'? That's one of the most accurate comments in your posts.
So the real meaning to this thread - freeze the sun, nibble a pie and adopt a beaver. You know you want to...
"Even though I know you were joking here, that was pretty childish. You're acting as bad as each other."
But he started it >_<
Lul, if they act they a child, I treat them like a child. That is not being immature (although I admit I was).
"Now look, I am not supporting you nor challenging you. Heck no. I am speaking to everyone in general. I have seen plenty of people moan about people using the wolver gear, and I have no doubt that someone will say something in this thread about that soon. And yes, I know they are voicing their own opinion on the wolver gear. I have respect for that."
You were supporting me about using wolver (or at least agreeing).
"You're speaking to a defensive player here. Oh ho! A challenge! Different playing styles affect and are harnessed by different players. Defensive players are just as useful as Offensive. Take a different game for an example. Teamfortress 2. Defensive players can guard intelligence/control points and that often is the most useful strategy. I don't want this to turn into a full-fledged Teamfortress 2 discussion, I was using it as an example. Yes, offensive trinkets are good for offensive players. And defensive trinkets are good for the defensive player. Heck, you can go the full throttle and use offensive gear and defensive trinkets."
I am gonna disagree, defensive players are nowhere near as useful to me.
The way I make money is getting as many FSCs done in the shortest amount of time. So when they introduced mission FSC and its huge payout I was all over that. Because I and the people I play with (usually) play offensively, we clear FSC about as fast as is possible. Due to this, I managed to make just under 3mil crowns in 2 weeks. If we played defensively, it would have taken a hell of a lot longer to do FSC, have been a hell of a lot more boring, and I would be a hell of a lot poorer.
With TF2, there are reasons to be defensive, and the same would apply to SK in Lockdown. But in PvE, what is the point.... What are you trying to defend??? The only thing you could possibly try defend is your life, but if someone can defend their life whilst playing offensively, then surely they would be more skilled. They are doing everything you are doing, whilst also killing everything much much faster.
What would be the point in going defence trinks on offensive player if you are skilled?
If skilled, you do not have to worry too much about defence, and if you do take damage, you can adapt on the fly.
*** Accidentally posted this on my alt account... never mind. ***
Most idiots here have missed Struduls point completely. Everyone CAN have their own opinion of how a skilled player is, but that will not change how things are. Fact is that everyone would benefit from having a player that follows the criterias from this page in their party.
As Strudul says multiple times, offence is better than defence!! Defence on a skilled player is unnecessarey because that knight wont get hit anyway.
Anyone who calls "being a gunner" skills is obviously a gunner. LOL
Im not saying i dont any use guns so dont bother saying anything. Ofcourse my guns are side arms.
Im not forcing you to believe in the same vision of the skilled player, BUT not striving to become that, will not make you a better player.
Do you find your self reading this thread and dont agree with Strudul? Then good luck becoming more wanted in parties (luck needed).
Does your guild have a theme song dedicated to how epic it is from someone who doesn't even play SK but its well know on the web? Nope. Discord ftw <3
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/487750082578431699/E79024BD1862F266C56...
thats the smurf army guild entrance exam! i was allowed to cheat cuz i was heating 1*s and have "relations" with the smurfs, but 0 ce rez, no trinket, no vitapods :P
edit: i take it back, we violated multiple criteria :<
you are just jelly how pretty shivermist is
So while everyone continues to argue about the validity of this thread, Have a laugh and chill :3!
Deja vu.
That topic is making me suffer from cancer. Strudul, stop using your personal opinion as something that isn't like that for the others (Hitler used to be like that. I can't tell much about you, but he was awesome, at least. Never saw someone killing millions for World Domination). What is good for you can be bad for other people, you know.
Please admins, lock that topic before it turns into a big ironic fight or something.
YES. finally..
a hitler reference.
that was the remaining thing this thread needed, was the hitler reference.
This thread is now complete, it can die now.
Indeed. Now the thread makes sense, it's like a new whole thread!
Now, admins, lock it before this turns into something worse.
Hi Strudul. I like you and generally like having u in my party (especially if we are doing something i find difficult like shadow lairs), so keep that in mind if this seems a bit harsh.
You may be unaware, but your initial posts definition of skill is actually offensive to most players. Which consequently is why u are getting so much negative feedback. It would be similar to me claiming u cannot be skilled unless are an in-game economics wizard and have all insane triple uv'd items. Otherwise no matter how 'skilled' u are with your swords you are still leaving damage on the table.
A second problem i see. If 2 artists both paint a picture, is the 1st artist better because he painted it quicker? Even if the 2nd artists painting is better? Just food for thought.
MY BIGGEST ARGUMENT AGAINST YOUR SELF-SERVING DEFINITION OF SKILL.
Now this is where it gets a bit personal. You claim to be a skilled player. Yet many times when i played vanaduke with u, i was on a subpar laptop. Oh i cannot solo vana btw even on my good cpu. I have tried twice, and failed both times. I got lag and freezes and death is simply an inevitability for me. You are one of a small group of people (u are all friends i believe), who will avoid rezzing teammates if they die what u consider to be too frequently and just go into hero 'look how skilled i am' mode. Then always after the fight you guys drop 3 heal pots and 3 remedies to show, 'i was so good i didn't even use them'. Now, wouldn't it be MORE SKILLED to drop the remedies and heal pots for 'less skilled players' during the vana fight so that they could die less? I mean, we are trying to do as much damage as quick as we can. So enable for you to reach your skill optimization cap (which clearly that is the goal) you would HAVE to drop the heal pots for teammates, or rez them...
I'm right aren't I? There is some hypocrisy there that doesn't intuitively add up right?
Still friends. I just had to vent on this subject because i don't understand the mindset that leads to it. I actually try to be the best teammate i can, regardless of my skill level.
I still <3 you and enjoy playing with u.
Thank you for that post pawn. I completely agree. This isn't necessarily about Strudul, himself. Just people who do that in general. I've ran across people in harder runs and they do that stuff all the time, insist on no shiver, insist on no bombs, insist on whatever... and then when we're all low on health they still pull out three pills at the end and are very much "look at me".
I just don't enjoy going on runs with people that have certain things that they INSIST, some I can completely understand and here are the few...
1. Not just rushing into rooms and spawning things then dying a horrible death over and over because you decided to go rambo.
2. Not using your weapons in such a way that hurts your team mates. I.E. Nitronome spam, polaris spam, sword knockback charging spam...
3. Not sharing health vials. I consider health being a shared thing in a team when you're doing a run. When you die people revive you, and if you're not sharing your health like people are sharing theirs with you, that's selfish.
4. Not begging for reviving. I will get to you as soon as I possibly can, I particular lag real bad when I go to revive I have to shield and stop and wait for the revive icon come up to get someone revived, just because I don't revive right away and end up doing the majority of it by myself doesn't mean I'm trying to show off or be mean... I'm just trying not to die so we don't have to use up ce to revive.
Those are the only things I ask. That's it. Those, to me, are common knowledge things that everyone should know on runs. If you do those things I would be happy to go on a run with you.
Sometimes, the more skilled players with better computers that can solo anything in the game tend to be more of a hindrance than a help. I know when I'm with a skilled player I'm watching them to learn new things, how they move, how they attack... I am watching. I want to become better. I'm by no means the best, but I don't think I'm the worst either. I think I'm a smart player, which is what makes me better than a good percentage of people. I just enjoy learning and if someone is not letting me do what I normally do and work you them, then I don't want to go on a run with them. I want to help and to work with my team mates, and guild, and if I can't do that... then there is no point to continue to go on runs with people that only let me do things their way.
Indeed. I don't even mind when I'm soloing Vana and someone with 4* gears ask for invite. I just invite them and be on my way (I mean, not that I'm actually playing selfish, but-- Oh, dig it by yourself. >_>). You know, I was helping a friend of mine (that stopped playing forever, I guess, unfortunately. :'c) and she was totally proto because she ragequit'd due to a dc at the unknown passage, and then she doanted her itens (not even her knows why she did that. lol). We managed to go through te entire FSC and defeated Vana anyway. And I'd say, boy, THAT was funny. So, is it good to have pro 1337 people at the party? Yes, but I slighty prefer a kind one than someone like that. If the person is kind AND pro, I'll be glad to make such a run with that one.
Sorry for the delayed response guys, I was in Spain, I know you were waiting for me <3
@Kitty MLP is just sad, I am not even gonna go there.
@Rueiwarrior Really?! It is a game. I am not killing Jews. Seriously, a bit of an overreaction.
@Pawn
"You may be unaware, but your initial posts definition of skill is actually offensive to most players. Which consequently is why u are getting so much negative feedback. It would be similar to me claiming u cannot be skilled unless are an in-game economics wizard and have all insane triple uv'd items. Otherwise no matter how 'skilled' u are with your swords you are still leaving damage on the table."
Everyone can not be the most skilled... Some people will always be more skilled and I know most people will not claim to be the most skilled. It should not be offensive that you aren't the most skilled since that may not be your main priority. My definition of skilled covers many factors of the players who people DO consider skilled. So you can hardly say you are skilled if you don't share traits with people you class as skilled. Skill is not about most damage, but what you can achieve with what you have.
"A second problem i see. If 2 artists both paint a picture, is the 1st artist better because he painted it quicker? Even if the 2nd artists painting is better? Just food for thought."
But this is not even relevant.
1) You can not clear the level "better"
2) Art is all about preference. There is no preference as to what is good. What is good is doing the level.
A much better example would be threading a needle. Two people can both thread a needle, but one can do it faster. Who is better at threading a needle? Yeh, the faster one....
"You are one of a small group of people (u are all friends i believe), who will avoid rezzing teammates if they die what u consider to be too frequently and just go into hero 'look how skilled i am' mode. Then always after the fight you guys drop 3 heal pots and 3 remedies to show, 'i was so good i didn't even use them'. Now, wouldn't it be MORE SKILLED to drop the remedies and heal pots for 'less skilled players' during the vana fight so that they could die less? I mean, we are trying to do as much damage as quick as we can. So enable for you to reach your skill optimization cap (which clearly that is the goal) you would HAVE to drop the heal pots for teammates, or rez them..."
Would you rather I res you several times and we both die?
To be perfectly honest, it stopped being "hero mode" a looong time ago. That is something noobs do. Now the game is so easy that nobody gives fig biscuit if you can do it. The reason people (or at least the reason I do it) is because it is fun. It is nice for it to be slightly more challenging.
Since you are in no rush, what is the problem with sitting there dead? You don't lose anything. Sit back and enjoy the free ride.
If I am in a group where we are going fast (and playing how I do), then I will res because it helps to make it fast.
If you are playing "slow" and not-like-me, then chance are you are being an inconvenience (no offence). Being solo is much easier for reasons I am not going to go into, but it is more risky.
The whole "doesn't use / drop pills and rems" is not me. I hate to point fingers but me and a few others have noticed this tends to be the so called "female" players. :/
I will usually offer my pills and rems to anyone if they aren't full before the fight and then drop them mid-fight. But if I don't know you need them (and usually the people who die still have 3/3 after I res), then I am not gonna drop the for no reason. Ask and you shall receive.
The only other thing is that the way I play is dangerous. Charging in with DVS and circling with 7 fireballs round duke usually ends up with me taking heavy hits, if I give away my pills and rems, then I won't have any to use, and giving them to the player that is complaining about lag just does not sound like the best option.
With regards to dropping pills and rems after the fight, yes this used to be about showing off, but nowadays it is just habit.
Hope that cleared a lot of it up, and don't worry about causing offence, I know I am asking for conflict, I am not gonna get upset about it xD
(However my not taking offence should also be reversed to others)
@Dan
What is wrong with people looking for a challenge? That's the entire reason they made these "hard" levels.
"I am watching. I want to become better. I'm by no means the best, but I don't think I'm the worst either. I think I'm a smart player, which is what makes me better than a good percentage of people. I just enjoy learning"
Well that is how I used to be. Always watching the people who were skilled in my eyes and trying to mirror it. But if they ever offered there opinion on the best way to do something, I accepted it with open arms and tried it. Sometimes it was good, sometimes I suggested a even better method.
I don't get upset because they aren't letting me do what I want to do and they think they know better than me. I just accept that they may know something I don't. People are so wound up and think everything s a direct insult and can't take advice.
@Rueiwarrior (again)
"So, is it good to have pro 1337 people at the party? Yes, but I slighty prefer a kind one than someone like that. If the person is kind AND pro, I'll be glad to make such a run with that one."
I will admit I don't always use the best methods to convey advice. It takes effort to mess about frilling up my advice and making it kind. But it should (SHOULD) help avoid confusion and gets the point across.
From past experience advice usually gets thrown back at my face, even if it is put "nicely".
Often I am trying to advise people quickly and don't have time to cover it in flowers, and then it may come out a bit demanding, but most people don't want to hear it anyway.
You were gone too long strudul. This was practically a necro!!!!! hehe
Oh yeah.
P.S. My artist/painting point was valid, because i had it firmly in my head that they are painting realism. But, having failed to mention that you rebutted nicely. Anyhow, i'm sure u read my analogy and thought, 'wth, such a bonehead analogy'. In the context of realism, it stands up.
Thats not the strudul who posted the thread...
Notice the name difference.
@Pawn
K. It is too late to think about it and argue back, I need sleep.
@Ginger
It is my alt, I often post with him (kinda by accident)
There's no point in being the most skilled PvE Guild in this game. Strudul is a good player, but good player are common as hell in any action-arcade mmo, and SK is a pretty easy one.
I have played with possibly all the well known players in Spiral Knight history, from ' Guild ' era to the current Lock Down etc. In Spiral Knight, sad yet sensible to say, most are nowhere near the true elite players I have seen in my life time. I can recognize only a handful of quality and potential players, and most of them come from rich pvp/shooter history. However, because I have seen personally what the true elites can do, how intelligence and excellent their strategic and mind games are aside from their top-tier reaction speed, the gap is astonishing. For some supposedly great players in this game, you can instantly tell they will not make their mark on any other games beside this. The very fundamental train of thoughts in the very first place already set these players apart.
Compete against any top teams / individuals in the world in a game with huge following and you'll realise it yourself. Fighting, MOBA, Shooters and on a lesser-scale MMOs ( since gears play into the equation ) .
PvE is dumb down basics, and the horrible A.I. of respective bosses in Spiral Knight doesn't help its case. Killing these mindless drones in S.K. does not have any correlation to skill.
Don't get me wrong though, there are good and responsive A.I. in single-player game, more so if you look into console games. Just not in Spiral Knight. These are games with a genuinely learning curve.
There's no point in being the most skilled PvE Guild in this game. Strudul is a good player, but good player are common as hell in any action-arcade mmo, and SK is a pretty easy one.
I have played with possibly all the well known players in Spiral Knight history, from ' Guild ' era to the current Lock Down etc. In Spiral Knight, sad yet sensible to say, most are nowhere near the true elite players I have seen in my life time. I can recognize only a handful of quality and potential players, and most of them come from rich pvp/shooter history. However, because I have seen personally what the true elites can do, how intelligence and excellent their strategic and mind games are aside from their top-tier reaction speed, the gap is astonishing. For some supposedly great players in this game, you can instantly tell they will not make their mark on any other games beside this. The very fundamental train of thoughts in the very first place already set these players apart.
Compete against any top teams / individuals in the world in a game with huge following and you'll realise it yourself. Fighting, MOBA, Shooters and on a lesser-scale MMOs ( since gears play into the equation ) .
PvE is dumb down basics, and the horrible A.I. of respective bosses in Spiral Knight doesn't help its case. Killing these mindless drones in S.K. does not have any correlation to skill.
Don't get me wrong though, there are good and responsive A.I. in single-player game, more so if you look into console games. Just not in Spiral Knight. These are games with a genuinely learning curve.
Hm...
Any person who refuses to use the best weapons available, when trying to prove he is skilled in your limited definition, is bad. For me, if you want to be skilled, bring a variety of weapons, and use them effectively at opportune moments. Although, it doesn't matter to much now, as every monster is basically in permastun mode now.
As for me, I will equate skill as the ability to make best with what you know and what you have. Also, I don't care too much about the skill of others.
I most certainly do not deny any of that.
Whatever you say, Hitler.
*BBzzZZzZzzZzZZZzzzZzT!*
I...Hate...This...Collar...
@Nicklessfool
There's lots of reasons you can rag on about why Spiral Knights is bad, but bad A.I. and simple gameplay? I always knew Quake was overrated.
I don't care about the little ego-stroking contest you guys have going here, I'm just dropping in to point this out...
"A much better example would be threading a needle. Two people can both thread a needle, but one can do it faster. Who is better at threading a needle? Yeh, the faster one...."
No, just no. Doing a run is not equatable to threading a needle. When you thread a needle, you either succeed or you don't, the "better" is all about speed. When you're doing a run, "better" is much more subjective. Some people value speed when doing runs, this is a fine opinion. Not necessarily my own, but whatever, to each their own. Some people do not find speed to be "better" and instead find being able to complete the run without getting hit as much to be "better." Some people prefer a run where the combat is more entertaining, they would find that to be "better" (this is where I stand, by the way, because I do runs for entertainment). Or one might like to do the run with more limited gear, like Proto Armor, or no trinkets/UVs. And of course some people might prefer completionism, doing everything in the floor without regards to profit. The art analogy lined up more than the needle-threading one.
" Doing a run is not equatable to threading a needle. When you thread a needle, you either succeed or you don't, the "better" is all about speed."
When doing a run you either succeed or you don't.....
" When you're doing a run, "better" is much more subjective. Some people value speed when doing runs, this is a fine opinion. Not necessarily my own, but whatever, to each their own. Some people do not find speed to be "better" and instead find being able to complete the run without getting hit as much to be "better." Some people prefer a run where the combat is more entertaining, they would find that to be "better" (this is where I stand, by the way, because I do runs for entertainment). Or one might like to do the run with more limited gear, like Proto Armor, or no trinkets/UVs. And of course some people might prefer completionism, doing everything in the floor without regards to profit."
Okay, you seem to have completely missed the point.
The whole thing is supposed to be about skill, and you are not using "better" in the right context. It is not about the run, it is about the player.
A run may be better if you break all the lamps, but the player is not "better". Unless you can not honestly tell me you think someone is more skilled because they broke all the lamps?
I tend to find the people who don't like to do a run fast are the ones who can't, not always, but a lot of the time. The simple matter that not as many people can do a run fast implies it requires more skill.
Anyone can do a run breaking all the lamps, anyone can do a run with entertaining combat, anyone can do a run taking minimum damage, and most people can do a run with limited gear, but the majority could not do it fast. The reason for going fast is because it provides a goal or a challenge.
People who go fast have taken the time to learn, which leads to them being more skilled. I am not saying you (not you directly dibs, you in general) don't have the ability to be skilled, but you aren't even trying.
No, it is you who have missed the point entirely. Not everyone can complete a run without getting hit (especially when lag spikes rear their ugly head), not everyone can do a given run in inferior gear (Munya's Proto FSC contest, anyone?), and not everyone can line up entertaining combat scenarios (this is more about the team itself than the individual player, though). You're so stuck in your "speed run, because speed is better" mentality that you can't see that not everyone thinks rushing through a level is better. I'm sure you have lots of fun dashing through levels as fast as possible, and that's fine. But I don't. The goal of a run is not to profit, it's not even to complete the run, actually. It's to have fun. Welcome to Videogames 101. People play them for entertainment. If you didn't have fun, your run was "worse" regardless of how fast you completed it. And if you intentionally sacrifice the fun of three other people so that you can have your fun, you are, at best, a terrible person.
I have a short list of players who I refuse to run with, and people who insist on not using Shivermist, and insist that I use Swiftstrike Buckler are on it, because running like that is not fun at all. They're so gung ho about how awesome and skilled they are, that they have no concern for the rest of the team. When I play with people like that, I make it a point to let them rush in by themselves and get killed, which they tend to do. Of course, when I swoop in to try and rez them, they just spend energy to rez themselves. Can't have someone rescuing Rambo! That would be so wrong! Protip - if you throw on some ASI UV's, some Vog armor, and/or some ASI Trinkets, you won't need to wear a shield that breaks in one hit. I mean, since you're not getting hit anyways, you don't need to worry about proper defense and HP trinkets, amirite?
Anyways, I've said my piece and explained it further, you either get it or you don't, so I'm out now.
Well if someone CAN do all those things AND do it quickly.... then surely..... .... ..... ..... .
You keep using "better" >_< I am not saying it is better for everyone, I am saying it takes more skill.
The goal of a run is entirely up to the person doing it. But after completing as many runs as I have, it is no longer fun to do it in any other way than fast as this is the most challenging way.
And again you missed the point. This is about SKILL, not FUN. In order to be the most skilled at something, it does not require it to be fun. Feel free to make a new thread about the most fun way to do stuff, but this is not the place for it. I personally don't find doing runs overly FUN, but the reward after completing it is enough. I am sure that this is the same with most skilled people in the world. They want to be the best at something and there is a big divide between people that play for leisure and people that play to win. (This is not elitist by the way).
Surely you would be ruining there fun if you don't want to play like them (and vice versa of course). But think of them using shivermist, the same as forcing a pro mountain biker to only use the basic trails. This limits them and would get boring fast. (Apart from that shivering duke is just stupid and requires zero skill).
I personally refuse to CE rev most of the time (however I don't really try to die unless I am being lazy and just charging in with friends who I know will res me).
If you use ASI trinks / Vog / ASI UVs, then where are you going to get the CTR and Dmg (which speeds stuff up). That shield allows you to reach max/close to max CTR, ASI and Dmg. And since a skilled player rarely needs a shield for shielding, it isn't a problem.
If a player is less skilled, but still wants to use a SSB, then you should you should encourage /praise them for wanting to learn. Putting them down for this is just pathetic.
"This is about SKILL, not FUN."
If that's how you've been Playing Spiral Knights this Whole Time, you're Playing it way, way, WAY Wrong.
...
Yeah, i got my Collar removed for doing Good Behavior. u mad?
The thread, not the game.
Think before you speak :3
I can confirm, Strudal is Strudul, :p
I like how you say you're Mature when you call me Trollkid. Really now. At least be a bit Creative.
/derail
Did you know Gengar is Clefairy's Shadow?
I just Ruined your Childhood.
@Hadn
Killing things quicker does make it a lot easier (which most people seem to refuse to acknowledge).
Yes, it shows more skill to be able to fight for longer whilst still not taking damage. But this is tedious and unnecessary, so I would never recommend doing this on a regular basis, a few times to prove it, maybe, or for a bit of fun.
I would not claim you aren't skilled.....
I use gear that makes the game easier so I can get the most amount of levels done in a given time. I too am lazy, go figure.
"Being able to dodge attacks takes more "skill" than being able to release a charged voltedge at a group of enemies."
Which is exactly why I said "Does not need to purely spam sword charge attacks". The way I usually play SK (when I am not playing one-handed) involves much more hacking and slashing. Using this method means being right up the enemies face. You are also surrounded and this should mean it is much harder to dodge attacks. Dodging CAN take skill, but the further you are from an enemy, the less skill it takes. When swording, you are in very close range and have limited movement. As a gunner/bomber, you are often further away, giving you more time to react. Yes there are times when gunners/bomber can't move, and it would require some "skill" to compensate for this, but only as much (if not less) as a swordie.
"bombers are left vulnerable while charging"
Whilst charging they can still move (even though at a reduced rate). Placing bombs is pretty swift. Okay, you can't shield, but since I rarely shield as a swordie anyway, what is the problem....
"gunners have next to no knockback which gets enemies crowded quicker"
Many guns either cancel attacks or apply status effects. They are also at range and can still move around. If a gunner is getting swarmed they are doing something wrong. It is easy enough to navigate your way around without attacking at all. Whilst moving, it is very hard to get hit since the enemies do not change the direction of their attack once they have started. It is very easy to just circle round enemies and slowly take them down (but I would not say this is skill).
"swords ... well.. they have knockback with any heavy 2 swing sword, plus they can shield cancel between attacks so where is the disadvantage?"
They do have things to be thinking about. It is certainly not skilful just to hit any enemy, anywhere. Particularly with high knockback swords, you need to be making sure you are controlling enemies to a desired point and not sending them into your friends or having a negative effect. The number of times i see people spending most of there time chasing enemies rather than killing them... or knocking them away and not letting their team get hits in.
@Metagenic
"If you refuse to think that anyone other than a swordsman has skill, then you might as well not expect people to take you seriously."
Perhaps I need to explain the English language to you. It is clear you do not understand it yet.
I said "lower". This means not as high or less than.
So in context of the sentence...
"I'm gonna say the skill cap on gunners and bomber is much lower as there is much less to worry about."
This means that the skill level of a gunner/bomber can not be as high as a sword user. There is less room for mistake as a swordie.
It does not mean gunners/bombers have no skill, and it does not mean that any sword user is better than any gunner/bomber.
But the best sword user has more skill than the best gunner/bomber.
Hope this helps. Good luck with school :3