Spiral Knights - Enemy Fix Idea (Gremlin Thwackers, Devilites, Greavers)

Enemy Fix Idea (Gremlin Thwackers, Devilites, Greavers)

46 replies [Last post]

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 07:42

Nitresco

Why, hello there!

I'm just going to come right off with it and say that the enemies listed in this topic's title may need some fixing, but of course, we ALL know Devilites need fixing.

Gremlin Thwackers: The spin-attack of these guys can be a REAL pain in my Wolver tail. I can fight them fully geared with fully heated Vog Cub armor, and still their spin attacks never fail to take away almost half my health with 1 hit. This wouldn't be a serious problem normally, but I notice on occasion that the Thwackers realize how effective this attack is... and start doing it consistently. Nothing ruins a Clockworks run more than a 5-gremlin tornado trapping me in a corner. And to make things worse, the attack stuns you quite often.

Suggested Fixes for Gremlin Thwackers:
1. Remove the stun.
2. Give the Gremlin's spin a charge animation and delay like the Mecha Knight's have.
3. Remove it entirely.
(Most preferably the second.)

Devilites: Yadayadayada. We all know this story. I'll just give you the summary. 1. The Overtimers dodging 10 times in a row and then suddenly throwing something. 2. The regular Devilites not throwing until you hit them, and THEN they throw something during your time of weakness. 3. The rate at which 3 Devilites can destroy your shield if they all throw things. 4. If one shock Devilite manages to shock you, kiss your sweet life goodbye.

Suggested Fixes for Devilites:
1. Give the Devilites a small charging animation like the Mecha Knight's before throwing (shorter charge time than the Mechas.)
2. Reduce damage done by thrown objects (Did I just lose 1/4th of my health to that piece of paper they threw at me?)
3. Make thrown projectiles inaccurate, with maybe a 45-degree spread in either direction.

Greavers: Right up there with Devilites. These things are easy to kill on Tier 1, but on Tier 3, more than one of them can be the death of you. Not only is their diving attack INSANELY hard to dodge, the Shock/Freeze aura left behind afterwards will either leave you standing there losing your shield slowly while they simply put more debuff auras on you, or leave you standing there frozen/shocked while they (you guessed it) put more debuff auras on you. Now, any decent player with a flourish can keep the Greavers at bay, but what about those times where you have multiple enemies to worry about? While you're busy trying to keep the Greaver storm from reaching you, that little ol' Spookat is swooping up behind you... and you get the picture.

Suggested Fixes for Greavers:
1. Tier 1 Greavers perform a swoop that cannot change direction. Tier 2 Greavers perform a homing swoop. Tier 3 Greavers perform a homing swoop and do the x-shape projectile shot when executed.
2. Reduce the debuff auras existence time or radius.
3. Slow down the Greavers swooping attack, or make it so it cannot turn very well when it attacks.

That's basically it. Thanks for your time, and feel free to leave your comments. Also, try to get this thread well-known if you support the ideas in it. I'll also consider adding fix suggestions if you post them in the comments.

Have a great day!
~Nitresco

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 07:44

Demonicsothe

"Ooh, enemy fix. Might have

"Ooh, enemy fix. Might have good suggestion for buffs."
Ignore list of enemies
Read first line.

/facepalm

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 07:52

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

Maybe posting some constructive criticism about a more balanced fix to enemies might help.
You know, not being one of those people who turn down an idea without second thought and fail to explain ways to make it better?
Ahhhh, but that's too much to ask... everyone only cares about their own opinion, and pushes down any competition.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 08:00

Demonicsothe

In which case, any opinion we

In which case, any opinion we provide would be shot down since you only care about your own, no?

Gremlin thwackers: I'm assuming decon zone. Don't open all the keys, don't group more than you can handle. Your knight has invincibility frames when hit. Mash your attack key if you are cornered.

Devilites: You got greedy. Each attack from a flourish/btb line interrupts. Slow down, or get even more aggressive. Think, a hurricane of bad press through their offices.

Greavers: Recently got nerfed. They don't chain status on a mist anymore. Turn autotarget on, spam the first hit with shield cancel. Since they follow you so fast, you can draw them away from the other enemies to deal with them solo. Look up Gauntlet solo in general discussion to see a vid of someone soloing the devilish drudgery and every gauntlet room. No death, no pill. And he did the shadow freeze room perfectly fine.

Ahhh, but that's too much to ask for you to consider my thoughts. Everyone only cares about their own opinion and pushes down any competition.

Thread still -1

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 08:16

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

>Implying I don't listen to others opinions or suggestions. It's not like the first post said any suggestions are welcome, or anything like that. It's not like I purposely asked for your opinions or solutions to better myself or the post. It's not like ignorance is bliss.

/sarcasm

Gremlin Thwackers: I mentioned stun for a reason. Mashing the attack key doesn't do much good when you can't get off an attack in time before you get hit again. And I wasn't directly referring to Deconstruction Zone.

Devilites: I know attacking interrupts their attacks, but it seems that once you hit them, they decide to throw something directly afterwards, and this is horrible is a slow weapon is being used. Also, it's considerably hard to slow down in a large, open room, where you have 10 objects flying at your from a combination of Overtimes and workers. Aggressive does work somewhat well. But what about people who don't currently carry a weapon that can readily tear through a crowd with 3 swipes? I'm trying to put every player in the equation here.

Greavers: I'm talking about the status in general. Being shocked once can spell certain doom, even without the chain. As for your video about the player soloing the gauntlet, keep in mind every player isn't this good. I'm posting these nerfing ideas with the idea of the less-skilled players in mind as much as the skilled players, as stated above in the Devilite section.

Also, there's a scoring system for threads? I wasn't aware that this was a basketball game.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 08:33

Demonicsothe

Learn to dodge and shield.

Learn to dodge and shield. And decon zones are the only place I can think of where you get chain stunned by a group of gremlins that has cornered you.

Why are you using a slow sword for devilites? Why? You should be using the effective weapons for each enemy. One of each damage type, so to speak. Dbb, flourish/btb, callahan/blitz. And again, awareness. Don't aggro every single enemy. Back off, draw some away. If you want to be able to deal with everything with one hand and eyes closed, try a game aimed at the toddler demogrpahic.

It isn't as if shock is constantly paralyzing you. You can still hit between ticks. Hit, hit, shock, hit. Shield bump also works to group them easier.

I do not support nerfs, simply because less skilled players couldn't handle them. It's T3 for a reason. Not tier 2, or 1. If they get invited to a strat they can't handle, they should learn to handle. Not ask to play this game at their skill level, because they can't get better.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:07

Serell

Why are there so many people

Why are there so many people asking for nerfs?
I renember when my friend and i just got T2 clearance and started a T2 run together.
The first level was a fiend level. We were slaughtered. But you didn't hear us asking for nerfs, we just worked hard for better equipment and trained. After a while we learned how the devilites reacted and how to dodge them, and now they're not to much of a problem.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:34

Severage

I died!

Logical solution: go to forums, and ask for a nerf.

Really though, Gremlin Thwackers aren't even hard to kill in T3. I kill them with a Voltedge (That's Normal/Elemental) all the time, and I don't have Elemental defence gear.

Devilites are (imo) the most challenging enemy in the game now, since Greavers got ninja'd. But if you either use a fast sword or even just a gun, you'll be fine fighting them all day. It is my guess that the Devs have purposely left one last difficult family of monsters in the game, and they should stay that way. As for 3 of them hitting your shield at the same time and breaking it...use a Crest of Almire? They'll only break it if you're not using shadow defence.

Greavers are now very easy to combat since their ninja nerf ("Fix"), as their status clouds no longer render you hopeless with your shield up. You can basically face-tank them now with a flourish, literally. You don't even need to use your shield and they'll die fairly quickly, even though you'll lose a little bit of health. Shield-cancelling and using the 1st swing of the flourish kills them easily. They're really no problem.

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:35

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

2 other places where a chain-stun can happen are arenas and danger rooms.

Once again, I was trying to keep everybody in mind. Not everyone has either the weapon slots or money to carry a fast sword with them or even posses a effective higher star version. As for aggro, a lot of rooms immediately aggro every enemy onto a player as soon as the enemies spawn. Party buttons/arenas/danger rooms for example. And I'm not saying I want it nerfed to the point of killing everything without so much as batting an eyelash, I'm just suggesting a more balanced edit to the enemies.

It's not just the shock I'm talking about. It's the shock+ consistent damage from everything else. Sure, you can escape from a Greavers shock by itself, but when 5 are crowding you, the consistent damage along with the shock animation prevents attacking most of the time. And in a time like this, your shield can be quickly whittled down to nothing.

And that final paragraph is most of what I asked for in the first place. I posted this topic for that reason: To see if people support this, why they do, and why they don't, and suggestions if they have any. If you simply said that in the first place, this topic would have a lot less pointless posts being slung around about some pointless debate. Thanks for finally posting something at least half-constructive.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:39

Severage

Oh, okay.

I see how it is now.

"Not everyone has either the weapon slots or money to carry a fast sword with them or even posses a effective higher star version"

So, we make all enemies easy enough so that we can kill Gremlins and Wolvers with Rocket Hammers, Mecha Knights with Flourishes, and Devilites with Nightblades.

If OOO made all enemies that easy, there's no incentive to spend money playing the game. Not to mention that they're already easy.

My advice: You better hope Asukalan doesn't show up. =p

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:47

#10

Nitresco

@Severage

You may be slightly confused with the CoA vs. Gremlin thing. Gremlin attacks (with a few exceptions such as Warmaster Seerus's Bombs that deal shadow) deal normal and elemental damage. Also, keep in mind the people that do not possess high quality flourishes or barbs. And wouldn't it be better to have a scenario where you don't require X to have any chance of defeating Y?

And no, I did not die, smash my keyboard, buy a new one, and then rage to the forums to ask for a nerf as I tear my hair out. I actually decided to post my thoughts and opinions on these monster concepts and suggest a slight edit to these enemies, discussing it with friends and guild members. And honestly, most seemed to agree with my ideas and suggestions.

I suppose the forums are just an inhospitable place for anyone looking to discuss game concepts rather than turn down other people's ideas before considering the purpose to them.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:51

#11

Demonicsothe

I'm gonna go buy a

I'm gonna go buy a shadowtech, the 2*, to fsc, and ask for a nurf.
I'm gonna take my callahan to a robo rampage arena, and ask for a nurf.
I'm gonna take my shivermist to a decon zone, and ask for a nurf.

This whole asking for nurf because you don't have the slot for it is ridiculous. Arsenal stations exist. Utilize them, make a new weapon. New players will not be dealing with T3 monsters, which is where the challenge resides.

A 4* weapon is sufficient for dealing with T3 enemies, so none of that about too expensive for upgrades.

Aggro is easily controlled. Learn wave management and pattern. If that last monster will spawn the turrt wave, you don't stand in the center to kill it. Party pads only spawn a few enemies, and only the 3rd room will spawn that gremlin stun group. And that's the last wave. If you can't bother to run, shield bump, and herd, that's a playstyle.

Don't bother mentioning danger rooms. Dr is for people who want to take a challenge. If you aren't equipped, why cry about it?

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:53

#12

Nitresco

@Severage

Ahhh, nevermind. I assumed the second paragraph was still talking about Gremlins in that post. My bad.

Also, you exaggerate to much. I'm not going around saying "omg mak fust kil evyting won hit". I'm saying "You already do little damage to these enemies and don't possess the right gear. Let's not make it any harder than it needs to be".

As for money, it's up to OOO to weigh against player enjoyment and money-making.

And who's this Asukalan fellow? He sounds quite interesting.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:59

#13

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

You seem to still assume I want these enemies nerfed to the point at which they are easy to kill as shufflebots. I'm just putting suggestions out there, gathering opinion. You think I'm doing this for personal gain? Nah, I'm just seeing how the community likes the idea, if anyone agrees, and who disagrees.

Everyone seems to think I'm doing this for self-benefit. I'm not.

I posted this in Suggestions, not Bugs. Doesn't that say enough?

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 09:59

#14

Demonicsothe

Asuka is incoming. Just

Asuka is incoming. Just wait.

This game as a strength vs weakness, as most games do. A certain enemy is resistant and weak to various ability/damage source.

The point is to use this system. If you refuse to, that's fine. But you give up the advantage of having specialized weapons or having the right defence.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:03

#15

Oatmonster

+1, to demonicsothe

I honestly dont see why so many people are asking for nerfs, i mean devlites i might see getting a nerf but GREMLINS? and as for gremlins, honestly they're not that hard, you can pretty easily run t3 devlite levels with a 4* flourisn/barb without shadow defense as long as you dont use the strategy run in a strait line at them and spam your faust

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:08

#16

Nitresco

@Oatmonster

Once again, am I asking for some complete game-breaking nerf? No, I'm simply looking at concepts of enemies and seeing what other people think as to my suggestions on them. Once again, I put this on "Suggestions" for a reason. It's not like I want this to happen like it means life or death to me, it's just some ideas I'm putting out there.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:23

#17

Guarder

Wat...

I'm a bomber i can kill all those enemy you just mentioned with ease.

you know whats hard for me to kill? a group of pup turrets and polyps.

I think they should be nuked because I have trouble killing them.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:26

#18

Demonicsothe

You asked for opinion, and

You asked for opinion, and that is exactly what you got. The few forumites who decided to comment has commented with what they believe.

I've provided alternatives and solutions to the supposed problems. What you decided to do with that opinion is up to you. Turn it into a hate speech against you, or don't consider it opinion at all. This is your thread, and you can consider what constitutes as "opinion" in it.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:43

#19

Kentard

Yaaawn.

+1 to Demonicsothe.

Look, if you can't kill an enemy, here's the problem (summarized into a few causes):
1. Wrong equipment. Don't need to elaborate on this - seriously, try bringing a Catalyzer to a beast level. I'll laugh my socks off.
2. You bit off more than you can chew - i.e. attacking 10 Gremlins at once.
3. You don't understand how some enemies work - hey, I have no trouble spamming Polaris at Overtimers. It's slow, but once they're cornered they're a sitting duck.
4. You're too slow. I don't blame you entirely for this - sometimes it's lag.
5. You're using the wrong strategy for battle.
6. Bad teammates - again I don't blame you for this.
7. The enemy is genuinely overpowered, unkillable and must be nerfed because it has about 2.5 million HP, deals 50 bars of damage and is invulnerable, hohoho. And spawns by the dozen.

And unless it's 7, I'm not inclined to agree with you.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:46

#20

Metagenic

Uh oh, Asukalan bait

He dishes out major verbal beatdowns to anyone who wants OOO to make enemies weaker.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:53

#21

Nitresco

@Metagenic

Ahhh. Thanks for the info. Although just threatening to bring another person on this thread, now matter who it is, will only make it more popular.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:58

#22

Demonicsothe

I sense deja vu.... Someone

I sense deja vu....
Someone bring up that copy righted Talisman of Twisted fate thread up.

But yes, Nitresco. Being a veteran, you can afford to disregard the ramblings of lesser people. Opinions are only opinions if they agree with you on some way.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:02

#23

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

"Lesser people".
Sorry, I believe in equality in the sense that there is those who make the game, and those that play the game. And I'm sure we both belong in the same classification when it comes to this, so I consider both our opinions to be equally right. One doesn't simply 1-up the other.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:15

#24

Demonicsothe

Nobody is one upping the

Nobody is one upping the other. So far, the people who've posted have given their stance on this topic, and provided reasons why. The reasons being they know how to deal with such problems.

And on your side, you say that this needs to be changed. One should be able to finish content without properly gearing up, if not one or two pieces of helpful gear. And to many people, that idea is downright laughable. Any idea why?

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:21

#25

Kentard

@Nitresco: Just out of curiosity,

What's your total play time, typical build for dealing with each of the various monster types, and have you experimented with using the 'wrong' weapons for a stratum?

Not that any of these bits of information are going to be used to condescend to you, I'm just curious to find out.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:27

#26

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

Because many people who can easily deal with these enemies don't realize that everybody cannot do such without either
1. Spending real money on energy to make the right gear for absolutely every situation, as you seem to think they should do.
2. Spend most of their time during the day endlessly money farming to get the energy and materials to get this gear, while trying to keep up enough budget to keep them going, and while the energy prices continue to go higher and higher due to OOO's bad decisions, such as today's patch.
3. Spend a week using their daily mist just so they can finally afford to craft a 4* piece of gear suitable to 1 situation.
4. Ask 200 people in Haven: "can i plz hav cr", which will no doubt earn them nothing but a large amount of trolling and ignores.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:33

#27

Nitresco

@Kentard

1,056 hours.
Default setup Vog Coat+Vog Cap. BTS, CoA, Grey Owlite, or Volcanic Plate as shield (Adjusts as needed). Standard weapons loadout is BTB, Combuster, Acheron, Polaris. DA and GF replace either brandish on occasion. 2 Sword Damage Trinkets on most of the time.

And yes, I have used wrong weapons before, sometimes as testing such as either of the 5* Troikas on a Devilite run, sometimes as just plain fun like a 4-man Dark Retribution run on FSC.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:42

#28

Demonicsothe

1. I have not spent a single

1. I have not spent a single cent. When my friends gave me ce, I've always paid them back. My entire armour line consists of skolver and mad bomber, with a 3* gunslinger set. One shield for each occasion, and different weapons for different damage types. Like I said earlier, a weapon is enough to carry you through tough strats. A 4* weapon is fine, no need for 800ce to be burned.

2. Are you arguing against grinding or working towards a goal? Grinding is part of most games, in order to extend playtime on a game. I'm not sure how today's patch will do anything to hike up energy price. Perhaps a short spike, then a gradual drop because the cr output would be overall reduced. Of course, you might not dislike grinding, and many people don't. But otherwise, what would you do in a game? Play all endgame content in a week, then quit?

3. Spend a week using mist? Most people use their mist anyways, not sure what you are trying to say. I've run rjp on ce, when ce was 7300 last year, and still getting profit. Ce is lower now. Again, I'm confused what the point of #3 was.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:49

#29

Asukalan

Oh my gosh, im so happy i

Oh my gosh, im so happy i found this. brb

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:59

#30

Demonicsothe

Wall of text inc

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:09

#31

Nitresco

Preparations.

/me puts on reading glasses.
/me grabs some popcorn.

Let's do this.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:04

#32

Severage

lol.

I'm surprised Mister Nitro is this persistent. Most nerf threads get KA-BLAMMED and the OP never replies again.

Anyway, point being that most of us here on the forums think that enemies are too easy. Not because we're ub3r 1337 or we spend hundreds of dollars on the game (I'm F2P, like many others here), but because enemies have been way over-nerfed.

Zombies (Therefore graveyards) used to be a place where you had to decide if you actually wanted to run through without killing anything, whereas now it's free heat/cr. FSC was difficult once-upon-a-time, but a single trojan is more threatening than a legion of zombies; and trojans aren't too threatening alone.

There will ALWAYS be someone who find enemies to be hard (Particularly fiends), and will always ask for nerfs. If you start the Devs on this nerf business, you'll have successfully eliminated the last challenging group of monsters in the game. For real.

There you have it. That's why we seem to be "shooting down your argument without taking it into consideration". It's because we've seen a hundred of these threads.

Asukalan on the other hand, will be back with his RAGEFAEC, which is usually funny as long as you don't take anything seriously.

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:17

#33

Nitresco

@Severage

I find giving a thread more posts counter-productive to the goal of the developers not taking it into consideration. They're more likely to notice it if you continuously move it to the front of the forums page by commenting on it.

Anyway, I'm glad someone at least bothers to communicate these things to me in a more... how to put this?... "friendly" way such as you did. A casual explanation with valid points always makes more progress than blatant disagreement. So, I thank you for communicating as such.

Also, I'm still waiting for Asukalan's text wall. This will no doubt be interesting and amusing.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:21

#34

Serell

...You seriously think just

...You seriously think just because this is on the front page OOO is more inclined to implement it?... Dunoo about you, but if i was a game developer, i wouldn't add a suggestion that many people are shooting down....

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:24

#35

Severage

@Nitro:

Yup Asukalan must've got lost in the woods.

I'm of the mind however, that it doesn't matter how many comments one has on his thread. Technically speaking, one could bump his own thread a hundred times to get the Dev's attention. Which is why it doesn't work that way.

But please, whatever you do...

Don't end up like THIS guy.

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:26

#36

Demonicsothe

Sev, I think I called that

Sev, I think I called that earlier in the thread.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 14:27

#37

Severage

@Demonicsothe:

"I sense deja vu....
Someone bring up that copy righted Talisman of Twisted fate thread up."

Well, your wish has been granted, good sir.

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:05

#38

Nitresco

@Severage

Way I see it:

1. Dev sees thread with large amount of posts.
2. Dev quickly scrolls to make sure all of them are not from the same person bumping.
3. Dev reads original post.
4. Dev likes idea.

And if he doesn't bother to read the opinion of the 100 forumites who dislike the idea, well, we all know what could happen. Admittedly, this is unlikely to happen. But is it impossible?

Also, that link. I read through it quite a bit. I started laughing uncontrollably at some point, and had to close the window for fear of some sort of heart attack. Thanks for that.

Also, should we send out a search party for Asukalan? He might be taking out his anger on some innocent forest animals. Or he might have drove the Wolver population to close-extinction. Of course, that may have nerfed the over-spawn of Wolvers...

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:10

#39

Demonicsothe

That sounds like a really

That sounds like a really negligent developer.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:20

#40

Nitresco

@Demonicsothe

Well, someone had to release the bad updates, hm?

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:23

#41

Serell

Bad update? New update is

Bad update? New update is awesome except for that whole emote thing

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:24

#42

Alpha-Stevo

@Demonicsothe

Or a really busy developer.

I honestly think they already have some non-developers to read the suggestion forums.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 15:27

#43

Nitresco

@Serell

Wasn't directly referring to today, ya' silly thing.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 18:02

#44

Severage

@Stevo:

Who do you think Eurydice is? Doesn't her lil title say "Game Master", whereas Nick's says "Developer"?

@Nitro:

You're welcome. It was pretty funny.

I think the best part was that only 1 person even commented on the idea, everyone else put up Memes and commented on how stupid it was to copyright it.

~Sev

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 18:11

#45

Demonicsothe

Actually, Eury's is Community

Actually, Eury's is Community Manager or something. It wasn't properly changed till a few months ago, when her promotion or whatever was a few months further back from that.

Thu, 03/22/2012 - 19:13

#46

Nitresco

Trying something else.

I tried something different, and instead of trying to get things removed from the game, I'm gonna try to add something.
So I made a Weapon Ideas Thread. Hooray! Unoriginal for the win!

But seriously, let me know what you think.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/48205

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Enemy Fix Idea (Gremlin Thwackers, Devilites, Greavers)