Spiral Knights - Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)

Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)

136 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 00:48

#51

Nixk

Okay like I said. Do some

Okay like I said. Do some research, I know so many games that have this style health and damage. All you basically did was restate with out a predominate rebuttal.

1) Yes but new players will die a lot using dual because it will make them careless.

2)It can fit in, and also, I think OOO is trying to develop more unique player styles.

3) + 4) Sigh.. Again. Think of other games and the reality of mechanics. To keep it fair it would only work with the current swords, not the current guns. IF they add new guns specifically for dual that could work too..

5) And again research other games... DPS is a bit of damage but harder to pull off. I played as a dual in one game and players loved to have me cause I would run up and as we called it "dps the crap out of" the boss. It took me a lot of practice to be able to do that, and even then it was almost better to ha e a shield character because on a harder boss, if i was careless I could easily die the most. This entire topic is almost a dull point because alll of what we talked about is only in theory and how they would design the code to handle the weapons of choice, they would need to test it against bosses and enemies.

And again. Like i was saying. Dual wielding was not my suggestion. I'm only saying he should to take down the section saying it is impossible to do tier 3 without a shield. Thats a lie, and is breaking the integrity to this discussion. Honestly my suggestion for dual wielding varies way different then this and that comes from my knowledge in game design and 3d design, I've done work in both and also what I hear from my brother and a good friend, since they are the two best MMO players I have ever met. (the friend is paid to play mmo games now)

if you wanna know a couple things about this suggestion I don't see working without having to change or add weapons base off the style of this game,
-guns dualing
-having a weaker shield
-having dual and a shield
-individual attacks for swords unless there is no shield.

What I agree partially with "* Dual-wielding Specific Weapons
Weapons that are custom made to be dual wielded, and balanced for this purpose. It could be two half-strength brandishes, or a vastly new weapon, such as the frequently suggested dagger." Though I don't think new weapons need to be designed. Like I said it would do with the code and how it handles the weapons stats when equipped. For example, 2/3 the average of the weapons damage. (This does work with two different weapons) For example again lets set random values. Two swords, 5 blips of normal, and both have 5 blips, one in shadow the other in elemental. The first sword when hit would do (10/2)*(2/3) normal and (5/2)*(2/3) of shadow. The other the same but elemental. Of course they would have to tweak with the (2/3) value of course and how that works. Thats just an example. I really dont think players would have a shield though, but instead a blocking method. The could just animate the same shield animation to make it easier, but while holding swords up, or if they want to be fancy, a crossing sword block. Theres two ways to do this. One, already mentioned, weaker that can only survive a hit. Or two, the defense would be equal to the swords basic power, BUT player is immobilized bracing their feet back in a blocking stance, as that is most practical when blocking with swords crossed.

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 06:48

#52

Hexzyle

@Nixk

It's not a "Hoax", Nick's statement is in the thread which I linked in the OP.
"We've talked about this internally so many times. It's just that it's such a major change with much of the end game dependent on skilled use of your shield. It could end up being quite frustrating if you lack one" -Nick

There have been 30+ dual wielding threads, all suggesting the sacrifice of a shield. All of them were quickly shot down. I'm not going to waste my time attempting to convince the general public that going without a shield is not so bad, because it is. One of the best days of my Spiral Knights life is when I learnt how to shield cancel.
I would have never made it through OCH T3 without my shielding skills, despite what people think, gunners DO use shields.
I have a few questions for you:
1. Do you know how to shield-cancel effectively?
2. If so, why would you be so willing to sacrifice such a powerful manouver?

Even Tsu has admitted in another thread that she optimizes the shield cancel.

I have not played vindictus, but I have played a game called Savage 2, which is a FPS/RPG/RTS, it's also based purely on skill, sure, there are people with dual weapons in it but they still have the ability to block, because in such a high speed game, you won't survive without a way to defend yourself.

In other RPGs that I have seen with dual wielding, (Diablo and its clones FATE and Torchlight, Rune Factory, Runescape, Dragon Quest among others) the shield merely gives a defense bonus, rather than an ability to completely migitate damage, therefore it's not such a sacrifice to remove it. I just looked at Vindictus, and it appears to me that the shield is a quite minor part of the game, which only one character can employ (out of four [eight in the expansion]). In games like this with more predominent classes, there are specific forced styles of play. In an open-styled game like Spiral Knights where everyone can use a shield, it's a pretty darn important component.
I think Trollingyou explained this pretty well in comment #50.
"Do your research" is not a valid substitute for an argumental point. YOU'RE supposed to do the research and then present us with the argument, which we then counterargument, with research of our own. So far you've talking about "games" but have failed to mention any apart from Vindictus which I discussed above.

Also, Alaska is in the United States, which is close to one of the Spiral Knights servers. I live in Australia, and have never seen 2 bars of connectivity. Please stop bringing up the "I have bad latency" point because you most likely don't.

You state that I'm stubborn yet you had a large debate with Trollingyou.

"2) Yes.. i know what it's like. Thats not an issue with the game. Otherwise why would they ever add new stuff if latency was such a huge problem?"

The majority of things added into the game have latency accounted for. Even I can whiz through OCH or use alchemers effectively.

"It's a lie to say 'you cannot do t3 without a shield" since I repeatedly do it. I've taken people with me on jelly king runs and challanged them to try no shield, by the end they were doing just as good as they were with a shield"

JK is T2, not T3.
That is because the majority of people don't utilize thier shield correctly in the first place. If they don't know how to use something, why would they be upset if they had to sacrifice it? They wouldn't. I'm beginning to think you don't realise the importance of a shield. Sure, you can run without one, but did you really use it when you had it in the first place?

"I honestly think that the shield should be gone if dual wielding, but have a form of blocking. In some games characters cross their swords for a last minuet chance. I think it should be an extremely weak block though"

That, I believe, is a form of shielding. Which we have been discussing. You've effectively said "No you can't bring a sheild if you dual-weild but you can still shield". WTF?

"I really dont think players would have a shield though, but instead a blocking method. The could just animate the same shield animation to make it easier, but while holding swords up, or if they want to be fancy, a crossing sword block. Theres two ways to do this. One, already mentioned, weaker that can only survive a hit. Or two, the defense would be equal to the swords basic power, BUT player is immobilized bracing their feet back in a blocking stance, as that is most practical when blocking with swords crossed.

Comments #15-30 regarding shielding mechanisms have already discussed this.You didn't even read the posts above your post (#31) to see what we were talking about before changing the inter-thread topic. :\

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 09:28

#53

Nixk

Lmao. I know jk isn't T3.

Lmao. I know jk isn't T3. I've played since release. Also if you read correctly I said I've done other T3 gates like a fiend stratum.

And yes I know I said its a hoax. That statement still is. Just because he says you cannot do tier 3 without a shield doesn't make it fact. Come watch me and friends play t3 no shields. All my argument was is that this is entirely possible with out a shield. (that's not the same as blocking, because I meant the physical shield as an item, verses having the shield be based off the swords)

Also I was only responding with the cross sword block to a previous thing, it wasn't and overall statement. And yes there's been a lot of these forums. I was saying if I "was" to suggest it that would be it, but I worded it poorly, apologizies. But I don't think dual wilding would be good. I think it's not a good idea. I was just offering a compromise.

Lol latency wise? I get 1 bar from home since is a island classified as a rainforest with poor connection. From the college, about 2, If lucky.

And also if there's been so many forums, I honestly think this one is a waste. I only commented because it is not true that you "(cannot do tier 3 without a shield)" since I do any gate I join, from tier 3 to end, usually no shield. I mentioned JK only based off the fact that i've taken completely new players into jelly king and told them to lose the shid and watched them go from deaths a lot, to by the third run, maybe at most two deaths.

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 10:48

#54

Severage

zZzzZzZz

Impossible or not, dismissing the use of a shield would be a massive learning curve for most end-game players. Therefore, many wouldn't use it.

Dodging is a good thing to know how to do, but your shield is more useful than (both) your swords put together.

~Sev

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 10:43

#55

Hexzyle

RE:

@Nixk
It might be possible, but I'm not going to give up my shield in a big hurry, and I'm assuming other experienced players in T3 will have the same mindset.

We were already discussing blocking methods and shield visuals before you came to the thread and said "dual wielding with no shield". If you have a compensation for your "no shield idea" such as "blocking" you could have just said it and contributed to the current conversation.4

Shield cancelling nearly doubles the speed of your weapon so what's the point in dropping your shield for dual weapons when you can just deal double damage anyway?
Incase you don't know of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA4ij_j1vH0

@Severage
I don't get what you're trying to say. :S

EDIT: I am going to bump this everytime someone suggests dual wielding.

Thu, 05/03/2012 - 22:04

#56

Klockworx

There's merit here

i believe that dual wielding does have merit in spiral knights as long as, as said before, it is properly balanced. For example instead of being able to use charge attacks, a knight who is dual wielding would be unable too. This is due to the fact that their damage output is already increased. Also like some have already said, I believe that you should only be able to dual wield light swords. (swords that can swing 3 or more times without being charged) that would limit people being overpowered. Also if dual wielding swords you could use that to "parry" attacks. This allows for a knight to still have a shield ability, without having an actual shield. Damage absorption can be done by the big wigs only cause I'm just throwing out ideas.

But your probably wondering what about guns? We'll I'm sure you noticed that when you equips the nightblade or similar variant. Your knight holds the sheath and the shield in the same hand. So why not be able to do this while holding a gun? There not that big and guns that could be dual wieldable should have a small knockback. (Antigua series has no knockback while Magnus series has huge knockback) that would still allow you to block.

I personally think that being able to dual wield a sentenza and ardent peacemaker respectfully would be an awesome sight, but most people don't like the idea. But for that matter being able to dual wield a achron and sentenza would still look cool in my book, heck make it a single item that looks like I'm dual wielding for that matter I don't care. It's just that since they put a character in game that has this look people are asking why too can't we have this look ya know? I apologies in advanced if this affends anyone but this forum is the only one which takes this subject seriously and politely.

Thanks.

Fri, 05/04/2012 - 02:28

#57

Hexzyle

@Glitchedpixel

Well, I already stated in the OP that dual wielding existing weapons just wouldnt work. Having 2 antiguas = double damage output (12 bullets) and would just be rediculous. No-one uses the charge ability on those guns so that wouldn't be a very large drawback.

You can't just take a pre-existing weapon and try to work it into dual-wielding; you can't cut and paste mechanics. You have to invent a whole new mechanic for dual wielding then create weapons for it.

Not to mention, switching weapons while dual wielding two pre-existing weapons would be a nightmare. How would this work?
And dual wielding a sword and a gun would be a nightmare. How would you let the game know when you wanted to use your gun and when you wanted to use your sword? You'd be swinging your sword half the time when all you wanted to do was shoot the enemy.

You have come at the thread with the right mindset, I'd just appreciate it if you read and understood the OP fully, and perhaps read through some of the other posts in the thread. There is some pretty thick discussion here.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 10:05

#58

Blandaxt

what about!

inventing a third key to attack, the mouse key could be for right arm and the other key where ever it is would for left arm. just a random thought for new mechanics, i didn't think about this idea thoroughly.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 20:14

#59

Hexzyle

@Blandaxt

I can't think of why...but that doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 20:23

#60

Aemicus

i want 2 sords kthnxbye

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:32

#61

Hexzyle

Cool story bro.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:36

#62

Aemicus

Aaaaand, you completely

Aaaaand, you completely missed the reference to your title.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:46

#63

Hexzyle

it just wasn't that funny

Nope.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:48

#64

Aemicus

http://i.mnpls.com/1041/10414

http://i.mnpls.com/1041/104144.gif

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:53

#65

Mk-Vl

So hex

Going by your avatar puppies have the energy symbol for eyes. Does that mean knights created them?

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:05

#66

Hexzyle

RE:

@Aemicus
...

@Mk-Vl
Who says knights invented the energy symbol?

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:10

#67

Mk-Vl

Some old comment of one of the admins

I think I can't really remember where I saw it but they said every single piece of knight created armor or weapon had the energy symbol on it (ex cobalt/plate lines, brandish/calibur lines etc). Things like Wilber coats don't because it is an item the got from the planet.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:55

#68

Hexzyle

@Mk-Vl

Well why are there energy symbols on gates in the clockworks? Or on machinery? (mecha knight kit heads and mecha turrets)

It might be just a universal symbol that monsters, gremlins, strangers and knights use. (remember that Boost has the energy symbol on his mask)
Kinda like how atomic particles have the same chemical buildup no matter where you go in the universe.

I chose this avatar because I thing gun puppies are kinda neat, and the fact that no-one else (save for Traev) uses it.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:58

#69

Hexzyle

double

fail

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 00:32

#70

Aemicus

I think hex needs a hug :3

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 10:11

#71

Trollingyou

Huggies you say??

We gotta keep in mind dual wielding existing weapons does not have to deal "double damage" on normal attacks or allow crazy combos like Sudaruska and Volcanic Pepperbox (Which would be seerus lulz).

The damage could mimic something like the cutter line, closest thing to dual wielding in SK right now. Notice how the ghost sword does not deal the full damage of the regular sword, only part of it. Dual wielding damage could follow a similar damage pattern, so we would not have overpowered dual blitz needles dealing an upward 6k damage per charge to vanaduke.

It would be easier to make it so you can't dual wield two different weapons, only two of the same (like two sentenzas, two DVS, etc.). The mechanics themselves could act similar to the cutter lines, click once and attack twice. The only thing is they would have to make new animations, but this goes for any dual wield thing if they decide to implement it.

Disabling the charge on dual wield weapons actually sounds like a good idea. Dual wield weapons in theory would deal more damage with normal attacks than single wield weapons, but single wield weapons would have charge attacks. Bombs would be a problem though, because you have to charge them up to us them. Maybe dual wield bombs could have a reduced radius or something.

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 13:02

#72

Hexzyle

It's been brought up a few

It's been brought up a few times along the thread that multi-exploding bombs such as the Dark Reprisal series satisfies dual bombs just perfectly.
Another idea is to just have a twice exploding crystal bomb. Easy. But balancing it is not....

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:31

#73

Kraanx

lil thing you guys might be

lil thing you guys might be forgetting: dual wielding requires two weapons.
so if youre not p2p or very patient, 5* double wielding will be quite rare/boring/only for pros.
like lots of the stuff patches add these days.

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 14:47

#74

Trollingyou

@Hexzyle

I was talking about bombs in the context of no charge, which isn't a good idea anyway. Like you said, balancing would not be easy.

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:13

#75

Blaze-Breaker

What if there was a larger

What if there was a larger delay between attacking and shielding when you dual wielded?
(It would take a longer time to shield than if your arm was just occupied with being ready to deploy a shield)
Additionally, as a few other notes, I'd like to state that could make dual wielding an appropriate trade-off.

1) Less powerful/longer charge time charge attacks. I mean your knight has two weapons, it might take a bit more concentration
and time to perform a charge attack, that, and the nature of most charge attack themselves (at least with swords) is
that many of them are one large, powerful attacks. So yeah, more powerful normal attack for generally worse charge attacks.

2) Longer combos. Don't tell me that it's possible to do twice as many swings with two swords as with one.
Again, because we're talking about two weapons here, the problem of juggling the momentum of two weapons
could take place. Dual weapon combos would take more time to perform, and that would make it harder to
flinch enemies, making things a bit more difficult.

Just brainstorming here.

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 15:44

#76

Soulitech

Easy

I'm sorry if someone already noted this but i'm lazy to read. The answer is quite easy. -Use the same thing used for "acheron" for dual design, use "striker"'s double hit, and just mirror the base sword animation frames for every single second hit. I don't know why is it such a big deal, here is another way to do it -make bulky weapons which fit in the shield slot. This sounds pretty easy to do, just use your brain as you all have one. As for the shield missing, i know many people (including myself) have been doing end-game runs with proto gear or without a shield, so it shouldn't be a fail. This should have been done a long time ago if you agree with me...

Sat, 05/12/2012 - 00:28

#77

Bulby

My thoughts:

Per Hexzyle's suggestion, I am posting my take on duel wielding in this thread.

First of all, I'm for the idea and I don't think it'd be impossible to pull off. I've been playing SK for about a year so I'm in favor of the new challenges this could present (some of the truly elite players are doing Vanaduke in proto gear now so it really doesn't seem too far out of reach as some may think).
Now, some of you are against the mechanics that this would present, but are you really against the look of duel wielding? What if duel wielding was completely cosmetic? Meaning that you get no bonus by going this route but also no draw-backs as well. An example would be the swift-strike buckler. From now on, whenever the SSB is equipped it shows you carrying two of whatever your weapon is. This shield is to boost your speed while crippling your defense right? (Hmmmmm, sounds familiar)
My second option would be that your shield be placed permanently on your back and when your using your weapons you'd be able to block with them using the same defensive strength of the shield on your back. There'd be no bonus from this second option period, except that you'd look completely AWESOME. Note: this would be primarily for the use of swords, as it would be rather impossible to block with guns and completely stupid to try to block with a bomb. @_@

Using swords: Running Blocking

Tue, 01/22/2013 - 11:21

#78

Hexzyle

RE:

@Kraanx

"lil thing you guys might be forgetting: dual wielding requires two weapons."

Untrue. We are suggesting that dual wielded weapons are new weapons designed for this purpose, and arrive as a pair. That means both new weapons take up the one weapon slot, and are not weilded with other weapons.
There are a few other suggestions here for dual wielding, but they're not very game changing, and therefore not that difficult to find a solution for: Most of them are purely cosmetic.

@Trollingyou

How about a 5* upgrade to each of the Crystal bombs: One of them becomes does the regular stuff that it does now (the Radiant Sun Shards or whatever is the most favoured) while the other line (starting at 3*) is completely reworked into a multi-shattering bomb. Of course, each shard/fragmentation would do less damage than RSS, but there would be a frickload more of them, at plausably random times/directions? Say the bomb explodes and sends out 4 shards in 6 waves in random directions in a quick succession. It would be absolutely rediculous, but would it be useful if balanced properly? Or instead of being random, have it a "shower" bomb that fires like 4 sprinklers: First 4 shots are in cardinal directions, next four shots are all rotated 15 degrees clockwise and so on until all 6 waves of shards have been fired. (totalling to one shard in each 15 degree incriment)

Err...Now I'm getting into weapon design. Will need a new thread for that. Anyway, I hope you get my point for new bombs.

@Blaze-Breaker

"What if there was a larger delay between attacking and shielding when you dual wielded?"

Unfortunately this introduces some complex new code design. It would also be hell for those who already have difficulty shielding in time due to their latency. (Take me for example, who lives in australia, I have to raise my shield a whole 800ms+ before a monster attacks in order to not take damage) It would also cause bad server syncronisation. Ever zoomed a lot as a striker in lockdown and gotten glitched on all sorts of corners and stupid things?

"Less powerful/longer charge time charge attacks."

This is reasonable. But this kind of comes into balancing each individual dual weapon rather than balancing dual wielding mechanics.

"Longer combos."

Again, perfectly reasonable. However, the knight should not have to spam click 9 times just to finish a combo. (you don't have to click 10 times for the cutter combo) I already find the game a bit of a spam click fest when I get my hands on anything with more than 2 strikes per combo, such as the blaster, brandish or calibur.
What I'm saying is, the player should click once, which will make the knight strike 3 times, albeit rather quickly. (if we're using fast swords)
If we're using fairly hefty swords, one click per sword swing for a 3 hit combo should be fine, or maybe a four strike combo to make each sword equally used. (left, step forwards with right, step forwards with left, delay.... slam with right)

@Bulby

"From now on, whenever the SSB is equipped it shows you carrying two of whatever your weapon is"

What if a duplicate shield to the SSB was released that gave your knight this animation, just like the Scissor Blades is a reskin? I'm sure many people would buy it, and it's unbind price would be nice and low for resale. OOO should definitely release more limited edition reskins like the Scissor Blades. Even though I can't afford them, I know other players can and they'll enjoy them.

"My second option would be that your shield be placed permanently on your back and when your using your weapons you'd be able to block with them using the same defensive strength of the shield on your back"

When I first read this, I thought you meant your back has a shield like Darkfangs. But what you're saying is quite interesting. It's a cosmetic effect, that allows you to still see what shield you are using. So how would a player achieve this? Would it be a knight-changing effect (effects the knight, like colour changes, height modifiers and eyes) or would it be an accessory on a piece of armor (or even a shield/weapon. I'll have to check the game files to see if it supports this) such as auras?

This puts a nice spin on the cosmetic dual wielding idea.

"impossible to block with guns and completely stupid to try to block with a bomb"

As discussed before, bombs are excluded from the dual wielding concept. Switching to your bomb would simply pull your shield back out like normal.

However, I know there are a lot of players (*cough* cowboy gunners *cough*) who would enjoy to dual wield guns, especially the antigua lines. Since the shield is an omnidirectional forcefield, (that even knights do not know how they work) I think blocking animation with guns (and then the shield projecting it's forcefield around the player) can be tolerated.

Tue, 01/22/2013 - 11:38

#79

Little-Juances

Sudden self bump O_O

Tue, 01/22/2013 - 11:50

#80

Hexzyle

@Little-Juances

"I am going to bump this everytime someone suggests dual wielding."

I gave them a link to this thread, but people don't want to follow links, they just want to look at threads on the first page. SO HERE'S MY THREAD ON THE FIRST PAGE. Enjoy.

Tue, 01/22/2013 - 12:26

#81

Softhead

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63848

Tue, 01/22/2013 - 15:19

#82

Eltia

Cooperstown, ND

I haven't read the whole thread (TL ; DR). But with the upcoming Battle Sprites update, the dual wielding idea could worth a second look. Survival rate without a shield would become less an issue. And supporting Sprites can use ability like ASI increase to make dual wielding more interesting. e.g. corner a mob and go wolverine on it.

Wed, 01/23/2013 - 01:32

#83

Mrgrey

My 2 cents

I'm tired, but I have read the whole thread. I debated on making a new thread for cutters (and a bit of what I feel worked into the convo) last week. I planned on linking back to note-worthy threads on dual-wielding swords, cutter buffs, and normal damage buffs posted more or less recently, and got too lazy to post my opinions.

Thought of this stuff last week.

A quick say on things.

- +1 for dual swords
- Don't use existing weapons (OP reasons)
- Normal damage, kind of needs a boost (suda is a cool big weapon, but not as good as others).
- Cutter's line should be used.
(my fav) need love, they're looked down upon in LD (even though when someone is poisoned, they can basically be considered dead).
- Have the swords defend, either crossing or just have the shield hand sword in reverse.
-Should match up with other 5* weapons

LONG SAY:

WHB (The beast killing weapon) is outclassed by the piercing flourish (final flourish?), rendering it useless for it's effect (High vs Beasts). Someone suggested a while back to add stun to WHB which didn't sound too great at first, but then I thought..maybe if it was used in combo with something. Someone else suggested to mix piercing/normal damage. I like these ideas, they were suggested to choose only one (either pierce/norm or stun). What if it's current damage WAS split half norm, and half pierce, and add in the stun? In response- removing the interrupt WHB seems to have (because stun is basically interrupt but more valuable). I think half and half would make it pretty balanced, no complaining for the final flourish users, and WHB becomes a beast hunting weapon again.

FOR MY DUAL-SWORDS IDEA:
I believe it would work if they add a new cutter branch- they're basically the the dual-swords of this game (as some of you would agree with me from this thread). For example, make a new branch starting at 4* that has dual swords, and here's the catch- you need 2 level 10 strikers (3* cutters) to make it. They'll be normal damage, and no status. I think it would make sense to boost the attack equal to that of the FF, or close to it since it should be normal damage, without status. Instead of ghost swings, replace with the second sword swing. I think that changing that the mechanics to fix the "miss" on the ghost swing needs to happen though. I think for the charge, a new animation will need to be made, or just have the person attack with both swords during the normal cutter charge (for boosted damage I might add). This charge (I think agreed by most) is a flawed charge, it leaves you wide open from all sides (so it's not OP). However, the charge should have interrupt to at least be able to defend from front. In the case of a charged dual attack where it's the same combo as other cutters with both swords swinging at once- the damage output will be the as if adding the main swing, and ghost together. The only issue I see with this (but maybe not even an issue) is that it will end faster.

Blocking (seems pretty much agreed upon) should be the crossed sword defense, or just putting an arm up with the sword backwards in the shield hand. Really, in the entire game we all know it's not the shield that defends, it's the bubble/aura. Helk- there are times I put up the shield but if the bubble doesn't show up, then I get hit. I think it would make sense if the shield could only take 2 minor hits, and 1 big hit. It would probably make sense if the time for a shield to come back was a we-bit lessened, no? That way even though you'd be vulnerable you wouldn't for sure die right away. Mostly, I feel that blocking is just needed for shield bumping, but maybe that's just me.

I'm lead to believe that this isn't OP, because let's be honest. Cutters are kind of UP, unless you freeze/ graviton the enemy, releasing a charge will get you killed in T3 (or almost will). Using them with just the normal combo is fun, but with little to no interrupt (I solo, so they can interrupt), enemies attack through your combo. This means 2 things: 1. You don't finish your combo because you should be shielding to save health. 2. You do less damage than what the full combo would (which I'm lead to believe is what the damage bar represents) do, and that's less than what's represented. Overall, all the negatives of the cutter lines balance what people might think would be OP for dual swords.

Lastly, since it will be 4*, new players will NOT be tempted to stop blocking before they know the meaning of using their shield.

Please, thoughts on this would be awesome. I know I should probably make a cutter thread (or put it in another thread) but I think it's too closely connected to the dual swords. Especially since it would make sense to use a stun or a poison weapon along with this suggestion.

IMAGINE:
Stun an enemy with WHB:
Switch, and release a charge with the dual swords WITHOUT GETTNIG HIT.
Poison with the DVS:
Switch and just dish out damage with their normal combo.
Either way, they compliment (and make better use of) the existing cutter 5*s.

For bombs:
Why not split a bomb that has 2 statuses, that are just weaker? It will always have a smaller radius than the other * versions. Ex 2* has 1*, until 5* has 4* radius. That way, it's only 1 bomb charge, with 2 statuses. Also, it's not going to be so strong that they'll replace using single status inflicting bombs. The mist would be a mixed color based on the mix of statuses. The pre reqs would be 1 of each bomb you want. Just a quick thought, nothing I've thought much about.

For gunning:
I think that using dual antigua lines would make most sense, and just make another line that's sort of weaker. It can deal out just normal or piercing damage. Either that, or release the snarby gun for piercing lol. Someone stated earlier that they felt dual wielding mostly works for swords, and I hate to say it but I somewhat agree. I'll keep the gunning in mind though, because the way they implement speed into gunning is the antigua line... which I feel is already useful. In this case, it's not as easy to mix with "fixing" another weapon line.

Wed, 01/23/2013 - 03:17

#84

Hexzyle

@Softhead

This thread was created several months before that one, and has plenty more balancing discussion.

@Elita

I haven't read the whole thread (TL ; DR). Survival rate without a shield would become less an issue.

/facepalm
You could have read the OP though which states the removal of the shield entirely is not gonna happen.

@Mrgrey

and here's the catch- you need 2 level 10 strikers (3* cutters) to make it.
I don't really think this is a good idea, it makes the weapon more expensive than any other weapon to make, and for balance issues, the 4 star weapon should not be any powerful than other 4 star weapons. One striker as the crafting cost will be fine.

It's a good idea to keep these dual weapons normal damage only. That way they don't get too rediculous.
About the shield, the swiftstrike buckler seems to be a fairly stable value to go off. It can take one huge attack while only leaving you a little bit grazed.

Lastly, since it will be 4*, new players will NOT be tempted to stop blocking before they know the meaning of using their shield.

Absolutely brilliant. Introduce new concepts at tier 3 only, for the more experienced players.

For bombs:

No dual wielding bombs, this was discussed earlier in the thread.
For dual wielding guns, I'm wondering if we should stop adding more reasons to just grind Jelly King. None of the other boss equipment has three upgrade lines. Seeing as the blaster does not yet have a sidepath, while all the other Spiral gear does, this could be possibly added onto the side of that tree.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 16:53

#85

Qwez

uhh...

How would dual wielding work when you want to switch weapons? Is there going to be another switch weapon button? Or are these going to be preset dual weapon sets that are created? Or are there just going to be new/changed weapons to fit this mechanic? Or is it that the player can not switch weapons?
-This didn't seem clear within the thread, I saw some "make new weapons" ideas and that's about it...

My suggestion for the attackstyle of dual weapons is to eliminate the stagnate movement for swords and to decrease the accuracy of guns.
-While using a sword, you would be able to freely walk around and hit stuff like in Chivalry (go on Youtube for reference).
-While using a gun, you will have a 30 degree spread (both directions) while moving at the same normal pace as using a single gun, while using Auto-Aim will cause the player to move at the pace of a charge attack while doing aimed shots (at any moment AA is activated, the player moves more slowly). Adding this, will require that the tutorial teach new players about Auto-Aim in the controls. EDIT: derp... I forgot that AA only works while standing still...

People indignant to shield removal:
If you really want your Shield-Bump you could have it so that the shield button will bump enemies away at half the * power of your currently strongest weapon rounded up. (maximum bump power would be a 3* weapon)
If you really want your block, you could make it like Super Smash Bros. which has a power-shield mechanic in which shielding exactly when you get hit will cause an extra-strong block (in this case it would just be a normal block). Said block will be eternally reusable, like the parry in Dark Souls. It's fine, because parrying isn't all that easy to do, takes tons of skill with possibly getting hit, and shielding is much easier to do.

I believe that this proposal is quite reasonable.

LD:
I don't know ._. sorry

If anyone has suggested these ideas in this thread, sorry, I tried skimming well, but my sleepy head had trouble grasping that text wall battle.

Wed, 01/23/2013 - 11:09

#86

Softhead

@Hexzyle

I was just saying here's me older one I made.

Can you evaluate it.

Wed, 01/23/2013 - 11:38

#87

Mrgrey

I feel like we are getting somewhere.

@Hex
It's a good idea to keep these dual weapons normal damage only.

Great, so is this agreed upon by most?

About the shield, the swiftstrike buckler seems to be a fairly stable value to go off. It can take one huge attack while only leaving you a little bit grazed.

I think it is a good base, but replace the swift ability with an added hit resistance. I feel that giving them only 1 hit absorption is an extreme, unless that one hit is from a trojan (breaking the shield and taking out only 1 bar?). I think that there are enough reasons that using dual swords in this game will put us at a disadvantage, assuming they don't interrupt with the normal hits. I'm not quite sure if they should or not. I feel that will make them OP, but then again a lot of other (stronger than cutter) weapons interrupt.

Seeing as the blaster does not yet have a sidepath, while all the other Spiral gear does, this could be possibly added onto the side of that tree.

This is very true, I feel that it would help greatly if this was to become a dual blaster. It would just use normal damage too I presume?

@Qwez
How would dual wielding work when you want to switch weapons?

Right now, I believe our best bet is to just have the dual swords as a weapon together, with a preset combo to avoid this complication.

... while using Auto-Aim will cause the player to move at the pace of a charge attack while doing aimed shots...

I don't agree with this because of the fact that aiming is difficult to learn unless you use the polaris (which really has like 2 or 3 squares to hit when it's expanded). Besides that and the other gun like it, shooting with small bullets such as the antigua, alchemer, and blaster lines, is very difficult to be precise with. I'd hate to see them add in dual guns only to have people who gun casually decide not to use it.

I love your shielding idea, but I just don't feel that it fits in with SK. Part of the reason we invest in shields is because they can sit there and take a hit when we absolutely need them to. This new mechanic would change the game, and since timing would be so crucial, those with latency issues would have much more difficulty using this technique. I'm not 100% sure, but I have mixed feeling. It would be a fun mechanic, but I'm just not sure how it would work in game with the rest of the simple mechanics.

Wed, 01/23/2013 - 12:55

#88

Eltia

Cooperstown, ND

Yea, OP cited what Nick said prior to the BS announcement.

People have been running around FSC with Swiftstrike Buckler (which is a next to nothing shield) and surviving. One of the new BS going to be have a support role (which from what I'm reading, would enhance our survival). Signs do point to that this thread needs a new look by incorporating new announcement?

Simple, right? No need for any facepalming. It's really just common sense.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 11:41

#89

Mrgrey

Even if the BS does provide

Even if the BS does provide some support, it doesn't change what we're asking for (A block of some sort). I think the thing in question is the animation of how dual sword users would block. Which I think can still be the defense pose we use with normal shields, or the cross block. As you said Eltia it should be incorporated, and I think it doesn't change much of what we're discussing. It'll give us a defensive boost, but will that be enough to incorporate dual-wield without issues? I think so, especially if we still get a shield/block.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 12:12

#90

Little-Juances

"Dual wield" bombs: The primary bomb would be used as normal. When you get hit, you drop the secondary bomb, like a gremlin demo. Crazy, isnt it?

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 19:35

#91

Mrgrey

Little-Juances

But then you have to get hit :(
And we don't want to get hit haha.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 23:49

#92

Hexzyle

@Qwez How would dual wielding

@Qwez
How would dual wielding work when you want to switch weapons? Is there going to be another switch weapon button? Or are these going to be preset dual weapon sets that are created? Or are there just going to be new/changed weapons to fit this mechanic? Or is it that the player can not switch weapons?

The dual weapons would take up the one weapon slot.

Also, autoaim only works when you are standing still, so halving your move speed while autoaiming doesn't really make sense.

@Quez and @Elita
When I say "no shield removal", I'm referring to removing the ability to block incoming damage by pressing the shield button. The shield's graphics can be replaced while using the Dual Weapons, or just be completely invisible, but the Dual Deapons would not take up a shield slot, and you would still have the ability to "shield" while Dual Wielding.

@Softhead
I was just saying here's me older one I made.

Sorry, I thought you were redirecting me. I'll bring up anything from that thread that hasn't already been brought up and I'll put it at the end of this post.

@Mrgrey and @Elita

Taking a hit from an unbuffed trojan at depth 25 brings Swiftstrike into the orange, and a buffed Trojan will snap the Swifstrike with no overflow. (no damage to the player) I'm fairly sure this is correct, from my experience with SSB in FSC. The SSB isn't as weak as you think it is, if you balance dodging, attacking, and shielding well.
Any shield (I'm mostly referring to swiftstrike here) is absolutely invaluable with escaping with your life. Taking FSC for example, because that's where most people go, you need a shield to escape one of those slag breath cones that you couldn't interrupt in time without being set alit, hopping over fire trap corners while taking minimal damage (or blocking trap damage with your shield, and just living through the fire damage)

Anyway, the Battle Sprites are just another weapon. They're not going to make us immortal beyond the Need for Sheelds 2.

End of Replies
If this is implemented as a single slot weapon, there shouldn't be any balance issues in lockdown. Of course, if you're playing as guardian, there could be a debuff to the guardian shield's health. Or another debuff could be implemented other than a shield debuff, like perhaps a defense debuff, or status weaknesses, although I'm not sure how that could be implemented into a weapon.
What if the weapons were not affected by ASI?
What if (one of) Winmillion's upgrades could be a dual wield?

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 16:30

#93

Mrgrey

@Hex

Okay Hex, seems like we're on the same page. I don't use the SSB myself, but I think I understand the way it works. Thanks for the clarification. I think that if we implement a block (even if it's not a shield itself) if it matches with the SSB then we should be fine. Even a bit less would be okay with the BS right? At least the defensive one. Just curious, can you solo with the SSB in a danger room without having a GF, FF, DA, or GP? I use the cutter lines, and usually a Shiv, so I can imagine that a weak shield could actually cause issues.

I think that one of the main ideas behind dual sword use is the ASI mixed with high damage for strong DPS. Of course, if it were a cutter it is weaker because the overall damage is spread out in so many click/swings. I think having ASI decrease low might be something to consider, but I'd imagine any lower than that would make it equally weak to the WHB (since cutters make good DPS weapons). The only reason I don't like the idea as a winmillion upgrade is because it's only 3 swing :P. If they changed that, then maybe. I'll admit though, the Winmillion needs a 5*.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 15:59

#94

Mzculet

Good job hexzyle!

Just thoughts wouldn't it be hard to dual a sword and gun?
So lets not make this happen? D:

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 16:31

#95

Mrgrey

I don't think it'd be too difficult

Right now our ideas are suggesting to make it a branch of something that starts at 4* or 3*, this way player already have a good idea of the game mechanics. Plus, since we want it to only take one weapon slot, worst case scenario you can always just switch weapons.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 18:03

#96

Qwez

Dual sword + gun?

@Night-Rove
err... You would need 2 attack buttons for that. A player won't be able to attack well without adding another attack button... which isn't good game implementation when you add a special option for one usage. You could combin...Winmillion, needs a buff.

@Mrgrey
Making a new Cutter with a different mechanic compared to the others wouldn't make sense... However I do agree that the Cutter should be used in this because the phantom blade in every Cutter slash doesn't really make sense...
Well, I believe that changing the entire line to be dual wielded, yet work similarly to it's current function is what should be done. So each attack is slashing with Cutters in both hands once (totalling 2 slashes). example attack pattern: slashes right > slashes left. (per attack command) (or left > right slashes for lefties :))
^ is not only a cosmetic change, the player deals 2 main slashes, but that damage output can be lowered if necessary.

My mind is starting to go off tangent... I'll just propose possible weapon ideas to implement excluding some of the more obvious ones...

Punching, Tonfas(these sound fun), Firebat (dual-nozzle) flamethrowers (Starcraft), Throwing daggers/ shurikans/ tomahawks(not the missile)/ lawn darts, ... lawn darts? Well time to go, the longer I'm sitting here thinking (over 1.5 hours), the crazier things will get...

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 18:27

#97

Mrgrey

Is it really a new mech?

I don't know if that would really be considered a new mechanic. It's really just a new animation, on a weapon that does more damage. I think changing the entire line to dual wield would be bad, because the DVS retains the beginning cutter animation, and the WHB has the AWESOME phantasmal wolvers. I think for the sake of having the cutter line stay (and giving less work to the devs), adding a new branch that starts at 4* for the cutters would be best.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 18:33

#98

Hexzyle

@Mrgrey
Just curious, can you solo with the SSB in a danger room without having a GF, FF, DA, or GP? I use the cutter lines, and usually a Shiv, so I can imagine that a weak shield could actually cause issues.

I use VV and VT, so the SSB doesn't often come into play. I also spam Suda charges and parry monsters out of range with the main attack, while flicking my shield after each attack incase a monster gets too close. Doing a danger room without a gun I find a little difficult, but bombs help a lot. It really depends on what danger room.
If I have to tank a bunch of hits with my SSB to the point it breaks, I was probably screwed anyway.

Right now our ideas are suggesting to make it a branch of something that starts at 4* or 3*
Not 3 star... 3 star is far too easy to aquire as a F2P. People work for ages at T2 to get their first 4 star item, but then they're still in T2, and haven't had a taste of T3 yet. Should dual weapons only be 5 star, so only T3 players can get them? This is assuming that the dual weapons give debuffs somewhere else. If it's only cosmetic, then sure, start them at 3 star.

@Night-Rove
Just thoughts wouldn't it be hard to dual a sword and gun? So lets not make this happen? D:

I think I stated somewhere that different weapons should not be combined. A sword and a gun? Doesn't really work right... if the sword and gun fire with each click, then that's a Winmillion. If the sword swings on normal attack, gun fires on charge, then that's Wrench Wand/Avenger

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 19:48

#99

Mrgrey

@Hex I think 4* is what I was

@Hex

I think 4* is what I was aiming at more than 3* sorry, I couldn't remember what I had thought about previously lol. I suggest 4* because of 2 reasons: 1) it only allows those who know what it is to grind, and how to play the game (after so much grinding); 2) The cutter line branches out at 4*, the vile striker, and the hunting blade are both 4*. Adding in the first dual swords there would make sense.

I also hold strong to the belief that it should be the cutter line to become dual-wield - since it's kind of seen as fast, and a lot of attacks. I don't see any other lines that have 2 strikes from one click/slash other than the spur/winmillion, and they only have 3 swings. Changing it to six would feel like a better cutter would put out the total damage faster). In the case it were to become the winmillion, and it did get projectiles, then each hit, and the projectiles would have to be severely weakened to end up with a total damage that wasn't OP, and I know very well the DVS/WHB hardly finish their combos if you have to block something mid-combo (ending up with a less than desired total damage).

Overall, I feel it can't be just 5*, because then it will be available mostly just for T3 players.

What kind of debuffs should it have, if any? Also, why do you feel it needs debuffing?

PS I've been debating on get a suda. Waiting to see if they sort of fix it.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 20:39

#100

Hexzyle

@Mrgrey

Suda's still pretty good before the proposed fix. The stun doesn't interrupt the knockback on the charge attack in the way that freeze does. I would recommend getting some CTR on it though, CTR medium at least, because the charge time is pretty long and you're going to want to be using it a lot.

At the moment I know of no weapons that add passive buffs/debuffs to your character so I'm not sure if it's even possible.
There is the obvious one of lowering shield strength while the Dual Weapons are the active weapon, but maybe something else could be done, say, even further reduced movement speed while the shield is up?
Or since you're weilding two swords, there could be very long recovery times inbetween each attack, but during recovery times you could still attack. This means that it is impossible to shield cancel, or shield shortly after a swing, but it makes it easy to chain into large combos, sacrificing the ability to shield for the ability to dish out a constant stream of attacks?

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Reasonable Discussion on Dual-Wielding Mechanics (This isn't just an "i want 2 sords kthnxbye" thread)