Good point. So the dual weapons are practically just a reskin of cutter?
As for your Troika, 5% of all weapon UVs turn out as a CTR Medium or higher. If you ragecraft, you should be able to get one in less than 200 crafts :P (I got mine after roughly 40 crafts)
Yeah that's a little unreasonable. But it's better than rolling, I can tell you that.
But I'm very impressed with my CTR Med Sudaruska, it can keep up damagewise with other swords that have a type advantage over enemies.
Almost, it'll be like adding another cutter branch that is full normal damage, and deals out an almost full bar of damage (similar to FF). Does that really sound pointless?
I feel that if this were mixed with updating the other cutters, it would give players incentive to use existing 5*s as support weapons, for heaving hitting with the dual-wield one.
I'll keep all that in mind, thanks :D!
While I was reading this thread, it seemed like Dual Wielding Bombs was not something very agreed upon. But in terms of animation and making it work, why not a new weapon that functions similar to bombs (since in reality we'd need new weapons or weapon styles since the shield is such a base mechanic of the game).
They could be called grenades, or bombs, or anything really and they are held similar to bombs except they are smaller and one in each hand. Since they are smaller they also have a small blast radius (I don't know how much would be too little though, since half radius seems a bit to small to be reasonable but why not 2/3 ?). The only real new mechanic this would add would be a semi-constant ammunition system (you have to use both bombs before you can 'reload') and giving bombs a seperate charging mechanic (charge up for both and then use attack to place kind of like a reload system).
Maybe this is a bad idea though, but just throwing it out there :)
Something you might eve missed is that armor can say how light it is like under defense and piercing or something and the weapon shows how light it is. Another thing is you can duel wield heavy weapons like troika sealed sword etc.
A dual sword or gun would be fun. I know that the shield cancel is a strong ability, but there might be other gamer out there just want to smash button and wield their sworld crazily when they face bosses. I'm not that type, but I think it will help the whole team out during quests. Dual gun too, it would be fun.
I agree w/ the daggers as 1 weapon. and as for shielding ITS ATTATCHED TO YOUR ARM #1 and #2 1 word:Troika. Also for some 'pictures' of this idea http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/82005 .
Can u rename the title 2 SWORDS not sords OCD soz......
like there would be a skill where with swords youd spin with them in hand or throw them,with the guns theyd shoot series of bullets and end with a mixed color shot
You forgot my thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/90184
Too lazy to HTML. Anyways, it might not be a dual-wielding thread but it is certainly a prime example of how the words weapons and two in one sentence seem to attract an unusual amount of hatred. I also made a cosmetic dual-wielding thread, but cannot seem to find it. Having actual dual-wielding is something that I see as impractical. If it is just a sort of cosmetic change, with two swords held and different animations then I see it as fine. Heck, a sword that acts a shield instead would cool.
(I still really like the suggestion I made though.)
why not add a durability limit it does work like shields appreantly if u think realisticly its stupid for swords to have same durability as a shields lets say a shield can take 6 hits max for sword durability it cannot be more than 6 as since u r holding 2 swords it will be lower and as for dual welding heavy swords meh they do not need any change they are fine as they are why i said so to support my reason divine avenger 2 hits combo could already make a monster half dead or dead like wise in pvp people without trinks 2 hits dead. on my opnion there should be a skill set for dual welders replacing battle sprites spots to be honest i dont find them helpful . As for the skill set they should be more towards aggresive play style and damage reduction and higher damage output and lastly healing skill though cool down limit will be long otherwise it will be stupid they will work like ur pet lvl up system instead no perks accept u need a specific item to maximize ur skills as for the dual welding gunners they should have a skillset of moving faster shooting faster and having a skill that inflict movement speed decrease to the enemy . To support my reason for movement speed decrease to enemy monsters such as the wolfs, greavers, gorgo aka (one eye fiends) they move very fast and its near to impossible to gun them down without missing much shots . some of you may totally find this a huge insult to the battle sprites but pleaese do mind its own personally view and keep this forum clean of foul language . if you do not like the idea , then we should start using our brains and figure it out instead of being a complainer most of you may be angry at dual welding swords but time goes by things need to change some may disagree too thats all .
Another alternative is u can use custom controls for dual weld function it will be replaced with a parrying function 2 in 1 for me i used the middle mouse to shield bash it can be use be replaced if u use dual weld weps it will automatically switch to parrying i can also scroll up and scrolldown too for mouse controls also for dual weld attack patterns left click to attack for first sword left click to attack with 2nd sword and for lockdown it will be ban as it will be too overpowered. and if anybody is confuse i feel that there should be melee attack 1 function should be in sync with melee attack 2 .
Also dual weld class requires common sense who would parry when theres 1 mob behind u u could walk past it and slash it to death and as for parrying u need to be always aware on ur screen whats behind u or any danger if theres absolute not choice parry against the one that hits hardest and ignore others or slashing anything in ur path afterall dual blades have speed and damage and it must be a completely new weapon since its a pure dps and speed wep it consist of a 4 hit combo and it can be increase by using a swordsman armor and dual weld effect another thing is this players will be able to choose their element on the dual wep depending what option is given example : lets say i have a dual welding wep i will have and option of 2 making it purely elemental or normal of course if u pick the element of not ur choice by mistake u will be stuck with that element .but even if lets say u well choose the element not of ur choice by then there should be a element change though in ce thats my point of view .
Edit incomplete (things yet to cover gunner dual welding weapons )
I just realized something. If dual-wielding were to take up a conventional slot, (as a single weapon) having no shield or a penalized shield should probably not be the disadvantage of this setup because savvy players will learn to (or macro to) "switch shield", aka switch to a weapon that does not penalize the shield and then shield.
If shield-cancelling was disabled for dual-wielding in trade for the power output so that you were clumsier during combos, this possibly wouldn't be needed.
What about players who lag so much they can't even effectively shield cancel?
Movement permissions are handled on the client (with the exception of the interface immobility)
The "players who lag too much to shield cancel" you speak of do not exist. (I know because even when I play on a 1000+ ms network connection with a bandwidth of 8KB/s I can still shield cancel perfectly fine. Walking without rubber-banding everywhere, getting Battle Sprites to use their skills, and actually landing hits on enemies before they've long since moved however, is another issue entirely)
DUAL WIELDING DEEERRRP
If it wasn't used the first derpbillion times, what makes yours so special?
I quite frankly don't care if this suggestion never gets implemented. I just wanted a place to discuss everything about the topic without prejudice.
forgive me for not reading through all the discussion (ive read the OP) but an idea id like to present (if it hasnt been presented yet) about dual wielding with shields:
why not have knights carry shields on their backs (unactivated) but when the knight uses the shield function, s/he holds his twin swords up in a cross to activate his shield in uni-directional defense (pretty much the same mechanic as single sword and shield but without actually using the shield). he'd then be harnessing the defensive mechanism of which is his shield with the use of his swords (in cross "x" formation) as signals for the shield to activate from his/her back. if it breaks, the shield barrier no longer works and he is then pushed to dodge only (like normal). (it would also make knights with the torto shields look like turtles lol)
also i think dual wielding should be a whole classification of its own. it would take up two weapon slots of course.
about speed and damage, it would have more DPS but less damage in each hit. (yeah, mainly for cosmetic purposes but they could have different charge attack mechanic). there simply is no reason to dual wield besides the fact that it looks cool. idk. im not up for it nor against it. but the idea sounds intriguing.
@Hexzyle: You know, dual wielding might be ok, if you have a mouse with 3 buttons.
@Hexzyle: You know, dual wielding might be ok, if you have a mouse with 3 buttons.
You're implying we have a third key for the current attack/defend keys.
That can be mapped to whatever people want. So unless while dual wielding the shield doesn't need to be used as much, or functions differently, (as opposed to being disabled entirely) then it could be mapped to a third key near your movement keys, while your two attack keys will take the place of your standard Attack/Defend.
Here's a proposed idea for that third key: parry.
When you hold it down, you can't move. (balances having it near the movement keys) If you take an attack while in a parry state, and press attack shortly after (give it long enough so that even people with slow reflexes or bad latency can utilize it) you can block all the damage while performing a normal attack (bonus damage is debatable)
This would draw from a parry bar that your shield health becomes upon switching to a dual wield setup. If you don't have any parry, you take full damage from the attack.
Parry being a consumable bar makes it so players can't infinitely block with this method, the being rooted in place is the tradeoff for being able to attack right out of it without block frames (in a nutshell it gives a penalty to players who try to abuse the parry mechanic by mainly using a single wield weapon and only tote dual-wield weapon so they can quickly switch to them for parry usage)
Wait a minute, who needs a third key? Assign this function to the Shield Bash key.
Now instead of the mapping saying "Action", "Defend", "Shield Bash", it would be something along the lines of "Action/Right Hand", "Left Hand", and "Defensive Ability"
So you could effectively parry a Vanaduke mace smash with a Proto Bomb? Because it's not fair to bomb and gun users if only sword people get it.
^i agree, parry doesnt make sense with big monsters.
"oh look a trojan"
*parry
*Trojan Charges
*Trojan phases through knight while the knight does a parry animation
"ahahaha ole senior Trojan"
you would do full damage but no shield it is as easy as that
Elad, could you first do a bit of research on the game's objections to dual wielding before posting your suggestion?
Under your system, I could:
-Dual wield Blitzes. What monsters?
-Dual wield Brandishes. What monsters?
-Dual wield Alchemers. Please no.
-Dual wield Pulsar lines. What 4 bars?
-Dual wield Antiguas. What reduced damage for maneuverability?
So you could effectively parry a Vanaduke mace smash with a Proto Bomb? Because it's not fair to bomb and gun users if only sword people get it.
Okay, I named it wrong. I should have called it counter: It's not a block with the weapon and strike, it's a dodge and strike. Doing this drains the same amount from your counter bar as if you had blocked the attack. So with Vanaduke's mace, you'll be able to perform the counter, but the hit would completely drain your counter bar. And yeah, maybe the strike resulting from a successful counter could be a charge attack. That way you could expend your shield (aka counter meter) health to pop off high damage, or pop out a well needed charge (preferably with knockback) when cornered
For me personally, I think "dual-swords" really ought to be 2 physical cutters (replacing the ghost) that deal out heavy normal damage. They would have to be doing the main damage hits at higher damage output and would need to overall equal up to the brandish finals, or FF.
I imagine this would be the easiest way to implement them into the game at this point without introducing a ton of new mechanics that contradict the current game, or are solely used for dual swords.
As for guns and bombs, I imagine using very similar things where they use 2 lesser damaging bombs that can plant 2 per charge in different spots. That would be interesting when explosions move enemies around. As for guns, I imagine having two 4-6 shooters, that you deal light damage with in every shot but I mean... 8-12 shots before reload? Good stuffs maybe?
Hello again, Mrgrey.
that can plant 2 per charge in different spots
This actually goes well with those "multi-bomb" ideas that some people have suggested, like the Chain Reaction bomb and the EV Beam.
Let go of charge to place the first, click attack again to place the second. (or click & hold to place the second and then start building up another charge)
I think for the most part dual wield would work really well as either hardcore utility (A.k.a CC) or as all out damage with no real immediate bonuses. Just pure damage. To be honest the natural balance that would happen from having to attack so many times to get full damage would make it so that nothing else was really needed. No shield lowering, or negative buffs, just plain old time restrictions to complete damage.
How about we shut these "i want 2 gunz kthxby" people up and just convert the antigua series weapons into holding 2 guns while halving their damage, and since there are 2 guns, doubling speed. Doesn't seem like any difference until you realize how many people stop suggesting it. As for the charge they hold the guns next to each other and then the charge attack happens.
Yeah, something like that was considered as a "cosmetic dual wielding".
I certainly would like a dual antigua reskin sold on the auction house for the 1.5 million like scissorblades.
To dual wield, you need to unlock a special equipment slot from the supply depot. Once unlocked, you'll gain the ability to equip a shield on your back. Think Darkfang Thwackers.
Once you've equipped 2 weapons, shielding will have you bring both weapons crossed in front of you, while the shield guards your back. Effectively maintaining your ability to guard in all directions. Though you'll still negate all damage, the health of your shields are cut by 30%.
The dual-wielding module ought to cost 500 energy for 30 days. A little expensive, but it's f*cking dual-wielding. Of course it's expensive.
EDIT:
You're only allowed to have one dual-wield slot at any given time. Once you have it unlocked, you'll see an extra weapon slot to the right of your top most weapon slot. Those top two equipment slots are 'bound' to each other.
Example, you're dual-wielding an Umbra Diver with a Nova Driver, with the Nova in the special weapon slot. You have a Hail Driver in the second normal weapon slot. You can't simply switch from wielding Umbra+Nova to Hail+Nova unless you're on an arsenal platform.
You're only allowed to dual wield weapons from the same evolution line. So, you can dual-wield Suda and Triglav, but not Suda and GF/DA. Same deal with everything else.
Due to balancing, I've made a separate section for each weapon type,
Heavy swords
-normal attacks
Heavy weapons are... heavy. Obviously. Using the idea where you increase the combo would make the Suda line borderline unusable. Instead, the knight will swing both weapons at the same time. The knight will look like he/she is twirling twice when doing their combo. Both swings will trigger damage twice.
-charges
Same deal as before. The charge for Suda/Triglav will have you swing down both swords at the same time. It'll look pretty similar to the single-handed charge of the swords, except that the dual-wield version will proc damage twice. The same applies to the warhammer.
The sealed sword charges is a little different. The charge's swing is the same as the regular attack, increased damage and double hits. The difference is in the phantasmic swords.
The swords will shoot out like normal, but in waves. Basically, imagine you're wielding both GF and DA, with DA in the special slot. When you swing the charge, the GF's single black sword will appear first, shoot out, and then the DA's sword will shoot, after a short pause.
Calibur swords
-regular attack
Unlike the heavy swords, the calibur line swords will vastly alter your combo. Instead of the usual 3 hit combo, your regular attack will change into a very fast 6 hit combo. You don't move at all in the first slash as usual, but every slash afterwards will have you move half as far as the normal combo's lunge. In return, the knockback is also halved, except for the final hit. Like the nomal cutter, pressing the attack button once will trigger two slashes. This also applies for the FoV, except that the FoV's every slash has slightly longer range and is a little slower.
-charge
The knight will spin twice. The first spin knocks enemies down and sends them back, but only as far as a normal combo's final hit. Before the second spin, the knight will jump forward first. The second spin has all the attributes of a single-handed Calibur's charge. Same deal with the FoV.
Brandish swords
-regular attack
Same as the Calibur swords.
-Charge
The slash is the same as the DA/GF's charge, a single slash that procs damage twice. But with the brandishes, the resulting wave will come in two lines. Basically, if a single-handed brandish is like,
--------
Then a dual-wielded brandish is like,
=======
If you have good aim, you can trap an enemy between both lines, effectively giving an enemy two statuses in one stroke. This will make the Voltedge a favourite I'm sure lol.
Cutter swords
Oh boy. This is where things get dicey.
I've used the Cutter before. And I can honestly say, that I almost never finish it's combo. The ghost slash is also pretty useless unless you've got the enemy boxed to a corner.
-regular attack
Same deal as before. Double combo, half lunge, faster slashes. 10 hits, 20 if you count the ghosts.
But since dual-wielded Cutters have half lunges, the ghost slashes will have a higher chance of hitting.
-charge
Exactly the same as the usual. But double the hits.
Spur swords
-regular attack
Same deal as every other sword. Double combo, half lunge.
-charge
Same as the GF/DA. The slash will shoot out 2 projectiles in succession.
Blasters
-regular attack
Guns are pretty simple in general. You shoot each gun, but not at the same time. Unlike with swords, you actually have to click all 6 times. ASI of each shot increases slightly.
-charge
2 big bullets side by side like the Brandishes.
Antigua guns
-regular attack
Exactly the same as the Blasters.
-charge
Both guns are shot at the same time 6 times each.
Pulsar guns
-regular attack
As straightforward as they come. Same deal as the Blasters.
-charge
Also exactly the same as the Blaster. 2 big bullets shot side by side.
Catalyzer guns
-regular attack
Also the same as everything else. Guns are pretty simple.
-charge
Only ONE big bullet. But when you tag an enemy, two orbs will appear at opposite sides of each other.
Autoguns
-regular attack
NOT the same as the others. Still 2 clicks, but the shots cover a wider area now since you're shooting from 2 points.
-charge
You shoot both guns at the same time, strafing from close to the middle to further apart and then back. Needless to say, the amount of hits pretty much double.
Magnus
-regular attack
Same as the others except for the Autogun. Though since the attack speed is slightly faster, dual-wielding Magnus' is probably better than single-wielding it.
-charge
Two big shots. Same as the blaster, but the recoil is sends you back even farther. Used carefully, the charge can be a pseudo-dodge in some situations.
Alchemers
-regular attack
Same as almost everything else.
-charge
Two shots in SUCCESSION. Not at the same time. Though the amount of hits is nothing to scoff at, you'll be immobile for quite a bit.
Bombs
Bombs are as straight forward as they come. Basically, it's not so much dual-wielding, as it is putting a timer on the second bomb.
Once a bomb has exploded, a second bomb will appear in the same place. The second bomb will prime itself automatically, in the amount of time it takes to charge said bomb, and THEN the fuse circle will appear. This applies to every bomb.
Should dual-wielding be implemented, a way to balance it would be to increase the charge time of all dual-wielded weapon by 150% (average between the charge time of both weapons * 1.5)
Also, even though dual-wielding weapons increases the speed of individual attacks, the combo as a whole takes longer (except for Heavy Swords)
Also, each individual attack does less damage. 60% for guns, 70% for swords, and 80% for bombs.
EDIT:
Crud, I forgot all about event weapon.
Due to the special properties of event weapons, you cannot dual-wield them with different weapon types. So Obsidian Carbine can't be used in conjunction with the Antiguas, and the Tortofist can only be used with other Tortofists.
Obsidian Carbine
Read the Antigua section. The only difference is the charge.
Tortofists
-regular attack
A 4-shot combo where the first 2 shots are small bullets, while the final 2 shots knock the enemy back while the user lunges forward as well. Basically, the user lunges twice now.
-charge
Relatively the same, but the amount of crystals increase by a lot. Now, the crystals cover in a wide semi-circle in front of the player. Also, if the user is using different Tortofists, one half of the semi-circle will be a different color than the other.
Mixmaster
I don't know how a Mixmaster works outside of descriptions, so I can't in confidence write a section about it.
wrench wand
You cannot dual-wield a wrench wand. Why? You're not allowed to dual-wield 0-1* weapons. Newbs need to learn how to use a shield first and foremost.
If Lt. Vaelyn can dual-wield, why can't we?
you should have had your own thread.
nice try and all, but the tradeoff for double power is 30% of your shield? that's too little, sorry. twin brandishes and shielding FTW. also bombs will not work that way, because they will be too slow. think of nitrome. the second one will never hit as long as you keep charging other nitromes.
@Thunder: you lose 30% shield health for 20%-60% more damage, the new combos are also less safe than the old ones, it's not that unbalanced. 30% is also roughly the difference between 4* health and 5* health.
Also, bombs. You take 50% more time to charge for setting 2 bombs at once. The lab between 2 bombs are the normal charge time. I've tested this, immediately charging in the same spot can hit sone monsters twice, if they have your aggro. Especially if you have them cornered. DBB would be the best bomb for dual-wielding.
Hmm... I do kind of want the Trig too... I'll think about it after I finish maxing out a hail driver. CTR Med or higher is going to be pretty pricey :'(
I don't think it's impossible, but for the sake of keeping the game the way it is we probably shouldn't try and do that. Though I kind of like your idea on reduction of movement speed, I don't feel a debuff is needed. Have you ever played excessively with a cutter branch weapon? It's already hard to work fast and well at once because they don't deal out enough damage before you get hit. A majority of the time in T3 (unless using the WHB) you won't interrupt, so you'll get hit and be unable to finish a full combo. This makes it so that the real damage you end up doing is less. I believe that alone is a debuff.
3rd Page 1st post :3 I sure do hope this gets attention from others :P