We have recently encountered rather disappointing patches (Expansion gremlin, which does not allow the game to be entirely free to play anymore, and gives OP weapons, MORE of those damn accessories, and the queer as a three dollar bill adopt a baby update, along with those STUPID creep cakes). People were quitting the game like rain falling from the sky. Then this rescue camp thing comes out. It is extremely awesome, although lag is a problem. I played through the rescue camp about 5 times and I am not tired of it. But then, suddenly a horrible thought popped into my head. Is the game…. Dying? Is the new rescue camp a desperate bid for a dying game for more players, a desperate final grab for survival? Discuss. I hope that my horrible suspicion is not true….
Is Spiral Knights dying?
I think the game is in a better state than it was prior steem.
The only people complaining are the Diablo 3 fans & if you know of Blizzard's community then you shouldn't be too shocked. I think the media from these player riots is just getting to you. The CE market is always going on 24/7. People selling CE 24/7 every day for a year now. Like seriously..
The game is dying just like F2P complaints are. Not at all.
The game cant die, the game can become a milking machine to drain players from $$ offering them nothing in exchange in order to amass funds that will support completly other game than the one, from where this money is.
Its done by relasing $$$ promos over and over again, and making game newb friendly. Environment like that makes very new players spend $$$ very easily.
Then when they finally spend some $$$ it does not really matter if they will stay or not. They may ragequit after 2 days of playing, who cares they left money in here. With every players that quits there are ca. 10 or even more new players who will spend some quick $$ since the game seemed fun but after they realise what is going on they might quit, then again new players come in...
It's been a little over a year since the game started, wouldn't worry too much about the possibility of it dying. All the revamps of the starting areas are I'm sure for some big incoming new players surge and my safe bet would be that it would be one of Steam events with the gifts and stuff. I know that many people who came over here for the snowball achievement left very fast, there was no missions, no real goal aside of achievements and achieving Tier clearances but all that changed.
Honestly, if I were a developer I wouldn't want to prioritise people who are already hooked to the game while I'm having trouble with getting new players hooked up to the game. You might think that all the newbie changes were pointless but the truth is all has a reason and everything costs resources, I wouldn't get too mad with OOO, the game is on a really good way, they just need to refine the start (or actually, I guess it's finished already).
I get it that you spent over nine thousand hours and literally know every monsters in this game like your own pocket but have some more patience, play some lockdown, go on Danger Room runs, do some no-shield runs meanwhile. There is plenty to do in the game. Try chaning your playstyles, try a jab at speedruns, etc. Whatever you do, just don't come out with a knife terrorising anyone because that doesn't work.
as long as people keep playing the game will not be dying and of course like every ftp game it has his ups and downs. But there are lots of people that play SK so I think the game aint dying at all. And we also have a great community just look how many subjects get posted at one day and how many replies. And if you walk over the Bazaar doesnt matter at what time there are always people walking shopping and talking and stuff. So the game isnt dying at all its just having a down period.
And abaut the DLC there are lots of games who do that but it doesnt make the game die at all. Its just a way to earn money I mean lets be onest OOO needs money to develop the game this is one way to get it :P
Eh. It's less that the game is dying, and more that the game is experiencing a drought of new content. Since the Rocket Hammer expansion thing, all we've had is cosmetic updates. And that Rescue Camp thing a few days ago I guess, but as I can't even access that with an existing knight it doesn't count as new content for me.
Not trying to sound bitter, just giving my personal reasons for not logging in for anything other than maybe a Prestige mission or two every few days anymore. All I can do is hope this lack of new content will end soon so I'd have something to do with friends on SK again. (Said friends are bored with the game due to lack of new content too, for the record.)
And once again, the Rescue Camp update didn't add anything new to the game for -me-. Not even sure why they made an announcement for it if only new players are ever going to see it anyway.
I doubt the strategy of slapping the existing players in the face and giving preferential treatment to the new players is a winning move....which reminds me, you forgot the eyes & height debacle....but ignoring the effectiveness of "noob milking", where are these supposed new players coming from?
I would figure their greatest influx of new players was when the game first appeared on steam as one of the handful of maybe eight free-to-play games which steam never had before. Now when I look on Steam's free-to-play, there's 28 titles and SK is on the third page. I figure all the existing players who are upset with the patches wouldn't be recommending the game to their friends if they're not happy or have quit. The people happy with SK I would figure would be promoting SK to their friends as usual, but you'd figure they'd run out eventually. SK has been out for awhile, so I'm assuming much of the hype of it being a new game to new players has died down. Pay-to-Play players who buy games regularly, I would figure would tend to avoid Free-to-Play labelled games....I'm thinking they may have prejudice thinking F2P games are crap.
The only thing I can figure is out of the 28 free-to-play titles on steam, it's one of four games playable on the Mac. So are all the new players Mac users?
TL;DR: Where are these New Players, who are supposedly bringing money to SK, coming from?
I AINT COMING BACK. Yes Blitz
"Now when I look on Steam's free-to-play, there's 28 titles and SK is on the third page. I figure all the existing players who are upset with the patches wouldn't be recommending the game to their friends if they're not happy or have quit."
Nope, you are wrong. In case you haven't still figured it out, they are sorted by the date they came out.
"I doubt the strategy of slapping the existing players in the face and giving preferential treatment to the new players is a winning move....which reminds me, you forgot the eyes & height debacle....but ignoring the effectiveness of "noob milking", where are these supposed new players coming from?"
From the Steam events, duh. Its rather obvious that Spiral Knights will be more than certainly a part of those events in the future, closest one coming I can guess is summer which isn't so far away. I can't see how can't you see that all the starting stuff revamps are preparations for major players surges.
Erm, Venom, didn't you already "quit" three months ago?
It seems odd that you're speculating on the death of a game that you supposedly stopped playing long before any of the last patches. The fact that you're still hanging around, as with a large number of other players who "quit" points to the fact that the real problem is what Stern mentions: waiting on new content for end-game players. Nothing is dying, you're just bored. Go do something else.
Impending Failure
A player makes a thread on how the game is dying.
What I think about all this is that OOO doesn't know how to keep old players and is on a recruiting spree, as they are centered in the Who game and current staff is reduced.
Why I think of this? Because they couldn't even show teases of possible new content since last time, when Mission Mode came out we had screens of what was coming, for example. And what is what we get in the in-game ads? Experience the new Rescue Camp... by doing a new knight instead of letting us old players play?
OOO has abandoned the old Arcade and the old players, unless they are paying customers (CE promos, last actual content being pure P2P/Steam only) And this is a fact as of today, whoever tries to ignore it... yeah, they are ignoring it themselves, the only entertainment left for old players is Lockdown.
Oh, yes, I ran a Shadow Lair recently because my Guild invited me to... and it is NOT worth it at ALL at current cost. And only Swarm related things were cool (Rabid Snarbolax showdown and Unknown Passage). Something that makes me think more that my suggestion about Shadow Distortions in Arcade would come out: it would give new content to Arcade, challenges, new Danger Rooms... which it is what it needs, purpose! (Mentioning about SLairs in case someone tells me that it is our endgame content :P )
The SK staff has never been huge, and they have most certainly added a lot to the game in e past year. When a team of developers goes silent for a while, it probably means they're working on something that can't be released in little pieces- I don't think they have enough staff to run five projects in parallel or create a steady stream of new stuff. So we get releases in spurts.
Why are there still beggars?
For a game to die it must do all of these things--
1. Company must run out of money. NO
2. People must leave in exodus. NO
3. Company must milk people for money. YES, but it has always been going on
4. Noobs must stop coming. NO
5. New content must suck. YES (but missions at least were good)
6. Hate threads on forums. YES
7. Bugs out the wazoo. NO
So over all, NO.
A dead game doesn't mean it has to shut down. I take it as: Has the game lost a decent amount of excitement to keep people playing and happy with the content
I'm not taking a stand on that matter.
Is Spiral Knights dying?
...along with those STUPID creep cakes
Thread ignored.
If I had a nickle every time someone said the game it dying, I'd have a lot of nickles. Then I'd melt down those nickles and build a gun to shoot myself with.
Seriously, Do you people have any idea what it takes to kill a online game? Its nearly impossible. Stop complaining about it
Spiral Knights is a great game, OOO is a great company, If anything is the problem, Its the community who demands to much.
Guild updates would help the game more than anything right now. New players coming in will be looking for guilds to join... and we need a better guild set up than what we have.
I figure they're going to release everything to do with guilds all at once.
I figure this update has to be in the near future.
I'm gonna say the next mega update, like overhaul kinda update will be a guild/guild hall update.
At least that's what I'm trying to tell myself.
thats excatly something I love abaut spiral knights they almost never have small updates. And when one big update comes out it makes you way happier then just a little update.
*AHEM*!
''are'', not ''is''
"Nope, you are wrong. In case you haven't still figured it out, they are sorted by the date they came out."
I'm not sure how I'm wrong that SK is on the 3rd page of Steam's Free-to-Play section even if it is sorted by date. My point was it's more unlikely a new player would see SK or get to it by the time they're scrolling through all the other F2P games they could be playing. I do now see that there's tabs in the F2P section, and SK is 8th under the "Most Popular" tab....just above Realm of Mad God in 9th spot (yeah that's a vote of confidence). However since the default tab is "New Releases" I think my original point still stands.
"From the Steam events, duh. Its rather obvious that Spiral Knights will be more than certainly a part of those events in the future..."
Explain the Steam Events.....is that when steam shows me an ad for a game when I launch steam? Because I don't recall seeing SK in those except during the Free-to-Play launch on Steam and maybe for the DLC. If you're talking about those Group Events, you'll only get that if you're in the SK group which new players aren't going to be in.
I'm still not seeing where all the Legions of "noobs" hauling money is coming from....oh but I'm sure their money is better than our filthy money.
Cosmic peons, this game's 170239 HP makes it mightier than you could ever aspire to be.
It's not SWToR and it was never pitched to the gaming community as the next WOW killer plus conceptually its unique and fresh!
You can play F2P w/o being gimped.
I think It's growing!
~Luke
I dont believe this game will die soon... not saying i think it will last forever like some ppl say but not saying i think it will die either... I honestly think some of the recent updates were very poorly chosen and unecessary... nerf'd jelly palace... twice now! i mean wth wasnt it hard enough to get money there unless u had a pass? the expansion mission is fun but IMO a bit overpriced for the content u get... the auction house was good until ppl scrolled down the release page and found 4-5* weapons needed to be unbound... nothing but accessories and overpriced handbag pets.... weapon damage and speeds constantly going up and down... CE price going up as well as crafting prices... and adding a new instance for new players only... to those of u thinking this game can't die think again...
to those of u thinking this game will die also think again...
nothing is set in stone... this game could either bounce back from what i would call a pretty bad situation or it could drive itself into the ground...
LEGO Universe was closed earlier this year even though i thought the game was doing well...
Neo Steam another F2P closed around the same time but it was more obvious...
lack of new content and price jumps may patch the boat but its not a permenant fix... IMO either start playing the game and seeing things through the eyes of ur players or blindly toss out updates that make everyone more miserable and less likely to play... so be a hater or be a fanboy... things could go either way... but if u want my HONEST opinion this game is gonna die if it continues this course and with all the bad updates i couldnt say id be sad to see it go...
I don't know how one could miss those while using Steam but okay: Event no. 1, Event no. 2. If you feign ignorance and claim that those brought no players in then I'll be only able to golfclap.
@Paweu
I missed the Steam Summer camp, I thought it was just Steam's yearly summer sale....nothing more. I did do the Steam Gift Pile but only realized what it was (chance of free games) when people in my guild in SK told me what it was. That and people in trade chat constantly talking about coal. I had to explain what it was to a few steam friends of mine for them to realize what it was too.
So maybe I might be pretty clueless about things happening on Steam, but it's possible that the Steam Events look just like a sales ad and most people are just going to close it unless they see a great deal on a game.
For the sake of argument, lets just say everybody's aware what these Steam Events are and participates in them (which I doubt). So SK is going to out compete all the other games in the event for the new player's attention? It's F2P and small to install, I'll give you that....but somehow I figure the new player just wants the achievement for the event and as soon as that's obtained, uninstall. I can see how giving noobs more stuff in SK help tempt them to stay, but they got to press on to the next game to unlock achievements. I also figure the games they have to play before getting to SK are more likely to capture their attention the longer it is till they get to SK since the events releases only certain games each day.
To tell you the truth, I only did the games I already owned for the event. I could have tried a few F2P games for their achievements but I didn't bother wasting my time installing them and playing them. I guess the Steam Event failed those F2P game snagging me as a new player.
Additionally these events usually have amazing deals on older Triple A games, I'd be more tempted buying one of those titles for $5 than a CE pack and playing that instead.
The more I think about it, the Steam event is really good for Steam and not so good for any one game. The chances a new player will invest in any game for the event is high, but the chances they'll invest in any specific game is low. If SK advertisement is really so dependent on these bi-annual/quarterly Steam event to draw in it's majority of new players.....I'd think twice about slapping the existing players in the face if I was OOO.
@Nolybot
I agree that the situation is kind of like looking at the glass half full or half empty which people say defines whether you're an optimist or a pessimist. However, I've always figured if you look at the trend of how the glass got to the half-way point, that will tell you if it's half-full or empty. I think you nailed it in your last sentence, SK maybe at it's half-way point right now and fanboys might be saying it's "half full" and haters might be saying it's "half empty"....but if you look at the downward trend that gotten us here, the glass is definitely "half-empty" and I haven't seen OOO saying they'll change their ways or even any indication they think they've done anything remotely wrong. If they're pretending nothing's wrong and everything great, then I'd expect the trend to remain the same.
@Blitzwingoo
I started playing Spiral Knights to get the Steam Gift Pile achievement, and I'm still playing.
^
@ Derpules
Cool. =) I didn't know we had that in common.
Oh good....I'm trying to understand a few things about where the new players are coming from, so I want to ask you a few questions if you don't mind.
Why did you choose SK over the other games? Was your choice influenced due to the fact that SK was listed on the second day of the event instead of something like the sixth day or later? Are you a Mac user? If so, is a limited selection of Mac games influencing your choice on SK?
These next ones might be a little more personal, so I'll understand if you don't answer them. How far are you into the game? (T1, T2, T3, Shadow Lairs, End Game?) Are you feeling there's a lack of new content or are there still lots of new things to you? Are you okay with the direction SK is heading? Are you aware of the negative response a portion of the community is having towards the recent updates? Did you bring a huge pile of money to throw at OOO? (ok that last one was a joke) Have you, or are you still willing to give money at OOO? (Don't really need figures, just want to know if OOO's investment in new players is equating into any money for them).
I'll just tell you that you'd sink in business if you only cared about your old clients while ditching altogether potential customers by neglecting your poor service basics just because the old customers ignored them totally.
I made this comment to my guild.
You don't change out the rendering system on a game you are going to give up on and let die. OOO is not going to let SK die if they can help it.
Two different things. OP should be more cautious about the choice of words.
I'm still puzzled about what went inside Nick's head since March. It looks to me what SK really needs to regain the interest of the broader gamer base (including F2P who can be converted into P2P) is to revamp the whole battle system.
Looking at the games starting with "D" and "G", they have a very strong action oriented component inside their design and that's what (P2P) gamer are buying into these days. Yet OOO went the opposite way: waves of useless accessories, buff weapons and nerf the level of difficulties.
SK should be able to grow into more than a "kiddy game" (as the 10 years old girl in my guild once called it). Make the battle hard, make it hot blood, make the experience memorable. Mind you, not the Shadow Lair experience (that's more like tedious and torturous). The day-to-day battles (inside Clockworks or Missions) should be fluid, with fireworks (not Nitronome like, but reasonable splash and flashes) and have moments to share with your friends and guildmates.
Right now, the battle system is not geared towards anyone in particular that would pay money. P2P with disposable income would move on to games beginning with "D" and "G", P2P who still spend money on SK occasionally would find the game too easy and becoming like a fashion show, and F2P who wants to speed up their progress by buying their way in feel no immediate need because the game is so easy they don't have the urgent need to buy CE.
So Nick, besides Sega, who are paying your rent? First rule of business: focus on customers, right? In SK, customers refer to P2P.
One feature I don't know if Nick and crews have considered, is to introduce unlockable special attacks that are bound to weapons. That's a good way to combine mission system, new items and enrich the battle system.
Why did you choose SK over the other games?
It reminded me of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, which was one of my favorite games. Also, I was able to try Spiral Knights without paying anything, it was a small download, and it runs quite well on my old computer.
Before I started playing Spiral Knights, I was heavily involved with Team Fortress 2 trading, so I had tons of TF2 items that were sitting idly in my backpack. I didn't want to get involved with TF2's seedy cash trading scene, so I decided to trade some of the TF2 items for CE through the Steam trading interface.
Was your choice influenced due to the fact that SK was listed on the second day of the event instead of something like the sixth day or later?
No, I tried to do as many of the free achievements as I could. Free was the important part for me. =)
Are you a Mac user?
No.
How far are you into the game? (T1, T2, T3, Shadow Lairs, End Game?)
I've done all the Shadow Lairs, so I'm basically at End Game right now.
Are you feeling there's a lack of new content or are there still lots of new things to you?
It is getting pretty stale. I'm at the point where I basically play a few rounds of Lockdown, perhaps defeat Vanaduke/Royal Jelly for the millionth time, and log off.
Are you okay with the direction SK is heading?
I like the new mission system, because the missions require a smaller time commitment than runs through the Arcade. However, the missions sort of make the Arcade redundant. Perhaps this will change in future updates.
Are you aware of the negative response a portion of the community is having towards the recent updates?
Yes, I read the forums quite often.
Have you, or are you still willing to give money at OOO?
Yes, initially I bought an Explorer Pack for $2.95. I have also purchased CE and the expansion mission.
One thing I liked about SK is that it didn't go the way of Diablo-like games.
No personal stat points to be picky about
No skill points to worry late into the game and/or wait it out to use
No classes, which means no exclusive skills, which means don't have to train multiple characters for this skill and that skill
If anything, OOO made a very different MMO, and it's going to stay this way until more MMOs borrowing this concept becomes mainstream.
@Eltia What about the game starting with "T"? Torchlight II might grab some of the people that, for whatever reason, won't play Diablo III.
The very idea of that! I'll have you know that the game has been around for one whole year and still counting! So far, we got the Snarbolax howling at us Knights, waiting for a challenge, a massive twin mecha Gremlin weapon bent on destroying Haven, plenty of festive events, King Krogmo's Blast Network and Lockdown coliseum events, good Haven town additions, plenty of new weapons and accessories, and let's not forget, the perilous Shadow Lair and it's transformed bosses, and the recently new Rescue Camp changes.
As for the "expansion gremlin" comment (you might need to get your thoughts a little bit more correct, by the way), "Operation Crimson Hammer" is the very first of the Expansion Mission adventures available, with much more new Expansion Missions to come. Expansion Missions are one-time purchase only mission packs that offer more adventure, more new enemies to battle, more new bosses to defeat, more new rewards with new items to buy and/or craft with new materials, and plenty more, and can be played as many times as we want. They do NOT hurt the free-to-play game concept, and NEVER will be.
You got to get it together. We're still all going to be expecting plenty more of new adventures in Cradle and beyond (if you get the meaning of the word). Long live Spiral Knights, OOO!!!
No one is saying we should ignore the new player content completely... what we're trying to point out is they're lack of attention to content that keeps old players playing instead of just leaving and never coming back cause they maxxed like all 3 characters. A good constant stream of new content for both old and new players alike IMO is what they need to work on... and to start listening to their community about suggestions and complaints. so yeah u can get a steady stream of new ppl... but when u invite them in the front door and eventually they sneak out the back cause the party got boring isn't it just come in, get out type of scenario? the game is never gonna grow like that.
"A good constant stream of new content for both old and new players alike IMO is what they need to work on... and to start listening to their community about suggestions and complaints. so yeah u can get a steady stream of new ppl... but when u invite them in the front door and eventually they sneak out the back cause the party got boring isn't it just come in, get out type of scenario? the game is never gonna grow like that."
Here is a really good read why developer (generally) won't/shouldn't listen to players
Spiral Knights has been an awesome game. It's still a good game. And it still has a far superior control scheme for sure.
But Diablo 3 is what we (The D3 players) have been waiting for. It's nothing against SK for me. It's just Diablo 3 will be released in less than 8 hours and Spiral Knights has fully served its' purpose by being a great game to play in the mean time.\
Spiral Knights won't die because it has a community that didn't completely migrate from anticipation of Diablo 3. As long as there is more content...this game will pull through. Even if this means Tier 4 with 6 and 7 star weapons
/salute
I don't know if it's dying, but it is def. on its way down hill. End game is boring and expensive (if you want to do SL runs, don't have a full party, and aren't already wealthy or willing to spend real money on CE). Maybe it's just me... maybe I don't enjoy the P2W business model... but market prices for expensive items have tanked over the last month, and I believe that is a direct correlation to either (a) players already owning the items (not common except among some top tier players), or (b) players leaving the game.
Not to mention, Diablo 3 is literally less than 12 hours away from launch... and that game caters to the same crowd (arguably, perhaps a little older) that SK caters to... but there are no energy costs to your grinding or to getting the best items. It's all of the fun that SK offers, but none of the [bullcrap]. I don't have to spend tons of energy and crowns, hoping to get lucky; rather, I can just play the game and hope to get lucky. People can flame me for bringing up D3, but most of the people I talk to that play SK are planning on playing D3, and I have serious doubts as to whether they will come back to this game.
It's not dying. It's shedding. It's trying to appeal to new players, sometimes at the cost of the old. However, we can expect some new "damaging" updates to accompany a whole new playing experience. Games cannot die as soon as they have their first anniversary, although there are some exceptions. This game, however, is only growing to bring in more players at the moment.
i answered the question like a good boy now give me cookies
"I'll just tell you that you'd sink in business if you only cared about your old clients while ditching altogether potential customers by neglecting your poor service basics just because the old customers ignored them totally."
As Nolybot already said, nobody is suggesting to cater exclusively to the old players and ignoring the new players.....your suggestion of such makes me wonder if you're just not getting what we're saying or if you're just simply trying to dogmatically defend a position.
Using your same example, a business isn't going to do well if they only catered to the new clients and neglected the old clients either. A good business is supposed to cater to both, and in my opinion old clients should get more preferential treatment as they've been with the company longer and have more potential of repeat business.
"Here is a really good read why developer (generally) won't/shouldn't listen to players"
It seems the bulk of this Gamasutra article by Daniel Cook talks about a vocal minority complaining about a game update, but the metrics (developer game statistics) actually tells the developer the game got better after the change based on "fun scores and retention increased". The article also talks about how the vocal minority of complainers are trying to manipulate the developers to their own advantage and to the detriment of the silent majority, so developers should listen to the metrics over the players. The article uses the game Realm of the Mad God as examples and is based on the writer's experiences.
So who is this Daniel Cook guy? I looked him up, he's a game designer working as the Chief Creative Officer at Spry Fox....the developer and publisher of the Realm of the Mad God, Surprise! While the article tries to seem scientific by saying they're using metrics, to me it seems pretty biased and unscientific. For starters it looks like Daniel Cook is just lashing back at the vocal minority in his game for complaining or having ulterior motives, and secondly his examples are not controlled....who knows if the metrics showing improvement after the updates are related to the update directly in those few examples. Also is he only showing the times the players were wrong? How often are the players right and the metics show this? How often were the players right and the metrics wrong? I doubt he even listens to his players so there would be no data on that....meaning anything he says about metrics is just confirmation bias.
The second commenter to the article brings up some real good points too:
"...I don't think it's entirely wise to simply dismiss the opinions of the players out of hand on the grounds of their being disingenuous, deceitful, warped, navel-gazing and self-serving."
"...simply relying on cold metrics and working solely from THOSE is as potentially damaging to the foundation (or future) of a game."
"...Furthermore, the 'silent majority' who do not complain, and that you find do not actually have a problem with what the vocal minority are complaining about, sometimes may simply be unaware that a flaw exists."
I feel your article on Metrics is not very objective nor informative, you should go watch this Extra Credits Video on Metrics instead. They explain why listening only to Metrics is bad, how it can lead to stagnation, how metrics can only look backwards, and how it kills innovation.
Thinking about it now, this may explain Spiral Knight's downward trend and apparent disregard of listening to the players. OOO probably mainly listens only to their metrics, which is leading it to stagnation and lack of innovation. The distressing thing is the Extra Credits video says once a company gets used to using metrics mainly, it's hard for them to get out of what they think is "playing it safe". If that's the case, more stagnation of SK ahead.
Interesting post and attached video.
I hope that SK can avoid this pitfall.
Games... Dont just... Die.
You need alot of warning cues for a game to abruptly die. The community here, while small, is large enough to maintain plenty of hope.
The main problem is if OOO messes up and creates another mass exodus, then things might become unstable.