Spiral Knights - Well no wonder

Well no wonder

138 replies [Last post]

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:13

Serell

I've been think and thinking about the statement Nick said... "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two"... and how unfair it is. I've been posting it in lots of other threads, but got no reply from him correcting his statement. Then I saw this RadioSEGA thing and when asked what is his favorite weapon, he said, "I'm quite partial to lending support with mist bombs like the Venom Veiler while using a Blitz Needle. I like rapid fire".

Well no wonder he said "Guns fire bullets"! Which is totally unfair, since guns only have to fire bullets, they are allowed to do anything! While bombs MUST BE STRICTLY AoE! If he described guns as anything else, he knows that his beloved Blitz Needle would fall out of line. Just like if he said something like "bombs do explosions", he knows he would have no reason to completely change the RSS.

Nick, come clarify some things. Your statement is completely unfair. If guns only need to fire bullets, then bombs only need to be charged, placed down, and explode to be a bomb. There is nothing wrong with a few bombs that aren't that great of AoE. Just like there is nothing wrong with a gun that is used up-close.

Also, your "swords do a mix of the two", makes no sense. You're saying that all swords are supposed to fire bullets and do AoE. The Cutter line is horrible at AoE, and the Spur line are the only swords I can think of right now that shoots bullets.

Are you ever going to clear some things up?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:19

Thunderbog

What are ye trying to do, Serell?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:25

Njthug

Guns that fire bullets ---

Guns that fire bullets --- All of them (Guns don't have to fire bullets btw we could have guns as rocket guns we shoot it hits an area then explodes)

Swords that do a mix:

Bullet Swords:

Sealed sword line with ctr

Winmillon line

Brandishes ---basically act as a gun with ctr

Swords that create area of damage:

Striker Line
Fov
Hammer
Cali line

Everything is pretty clear the Rss has been overpowered since beta the bullet action the bomb had and the damage output was way 2 powerful. They changed the bombs and added new bombs which work pretty well if you know how to use them with certain gear.

The Rss is gone now we have new bombs deal with it if its way 2 hard for you to not be able to play Spiral Knights without it I guess the only option is to quit.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:30

Wodanct

Would like to take this time

Would like to take this time to show that the new bombs still suck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz-8JFrGcfg

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:31

Realnight

The old RSS is still way

The old RSS is still way outclassed by the current Blitz needle - just saying (if we want to talk about overpowered)

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:32

Artistbma

Yes, Jessica Nunn. We're

Yes, Jessica Nunn. We're sorry for offending you.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:33

Skenderbeu

DA and GF shoot

DA and GF shoot projectile/bullet swords when you use the charge. The Brandishes do explosions like Polaris bullets with the charge aswell.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:38

Thunderbog

DBB Forever.
Nitronome Forever.
SSS is no.

Ye know, buffing the shard bomb's damage is better for our cause?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:45

Serell

Njthug

Sealed line and Brandih line only shoot on the charge. It doesn't count. Striker, FoV, Hammer, and Cali only have AoE, no bullets so it doesn't count.

And just because the old RSS was overpowerd DOES NOT MEAN IT NEEDED A COMPLETE CHANGE OF MECHANICS THAT GIVES IT A TOTALLY DIFFERENT USE.

Also, I love how you ignored everything else.

@Thunderbog : I'm just trying to get Nick to clear up a few things. He doesn't have to bring the old bombs back, just admit he made a mistake. It's too late to to change the RSS back, but it would be neat if he made a new line of bombs with old RSS's mechanics for us as a "sorry".

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:45

Njthug

@Serell

Those charges for Striker Fov etc. are more like bombs since its an area of damage.

Sealed swords and Brandish their ctr acts like a gun by being able to damage targets that are a greater distance away from you.

It doesn't mean that it didn't either we can go all day saying that your wrong and I am right vice-versa it won't change the fact the bombs are how they are. You can use them or pick another weapon we have over 50+ weapons to choose from if none of them meet your needs well then I guess you can try beating levels with vials or have parties carry you.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:49

#10

Serell

So.... do you believe Nicks statement that "Guns fire bullets, bombs create of areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two" is fair? Just checking. The thing about the swords is not the main point of this post.

If guns only need to fire bullets, than bombs only need to be charged, placed down, and explode to be a bomb.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:52

#11

Eurydice

Community Manager

> Yes, Jessica Nunn. We're

> Yes, Jessica Nunn. We're sorry for offending you.

Wait, what?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:54

#12

Njthug

@Serell

The Rss --- was basically an overpowered gun the damage output was too high the rss bullets flew farther than the Blitz or any other gun in that aspect.

I believe that the weapons are a bit more balanced now.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:55

#13

Njthug

@Eury

Apparently Nj backwards means Jessica Nunn, but we all truly know Nj = Nice Junk.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:56

#14

Serell

...

I wasn't asking about that. I said,

"So.... do you believe Nicks statement that "Guns fire bullets, bombs create of areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two" is fair? Just checking. The thing about the swords is not the main point of this post.

If guns only need to fire bullets, than bombs only need to be charged, placed down, and explode to be a bomb."

And the RSS was not that gun-like. It was a shrapnel bomb. A gun could be aimed A LOT more easily. And maybe it could use a little nerf on the range? Does that mean they needed to compltely change the mechanics?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:57

#15

Artistbma

@Njthug Nice try. Ha. Haha.

@Njthug

Nice try. Ha. Haha. Hahahaha. Muahahhahaha.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:59

#16

Eurydice

Community Manager

If there are people out there

If there are people out there who genuinely think you and I are the same person, that April Fool's joke worked better than I'd ever dreamed possible.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:00

#17

Thunderbog

ewww.

@Eurydice I almost believed it. But, why Eurydice, why Njthug but not someone else? owO

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:01

#18

Xombie

Derp!

Serell,

I think you've really confused yourself.

Step away from your wonder "maths" and find the dry eraser.

That is all.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:02

#19

Artistbma

@Eurydice/Njthug

I know what game you're playing at.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:02

#20

Njthug

@Serell

I replied how I wished to reply =)

The Rss was gun-like you can ask any good bomber they will confirm that. A gun can be aimed easily so can the Rss if you knew how to use it well. The damage outputs would of had to have a total change even on a 4* scale it was overpowered. They could of just made minor adjustments and added these new lines, or they could of did what they did. They could of never added Ce to this game either and let us play for free we can always argue what the team could of done differently. They could of not gave us forums to use. They could of banned all of us by now. They could of hired Artistbma as a lead programmer. They could take over the United States. They could be planning to merge this game into Runescape. They could add new monsters that look like sonic. This game of they could of done this is fun lets keep playing.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:03

#21

Serell

Xombie

Maybe I have. Care to explain, so I can see my faults?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:04

#22

Njthug

@Eury

I can't wait for next year!!! How many more people we can trick!!

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:07

#23

Artistbma

/raises eyebrow

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:10

#24

Serell

Njthug

"They could of just made minor adjustments and added these new lines, or they could of did what they did"
Yes, they could have done that. And that would have made a lot of people happier.

And so what if the RSS was gun like? The Polaris is bomb-like.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:18

#25

Njthug

@Serell

So they should be nerfing or changing the Polaris, but most good gunners don't use polaris due to this reason it acting more bomb-like.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:26

#26

Artistbma

@NjthugOf course. And Y U No

@Njthug

Of course. And Y U No Respond In Your Eury Persona?!

PS: The of course part was sarcasm.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:23

#27

Serell

....

No they shouldn't change the Polaris. there in nothing wrong with a gun that is kinda bomb-like. It offers variety.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:46

#28

Lostillusion

I don't understand why people keep bringing this up.

I think that "swords do a mix of the two" is more to the fact that at close range they hit multiple targets, and some have a larger range on charge. But lets look at the rest of this.

Guns shoot, Bombs deal AOE (explode), and Swords slash.

Name one weapon that does not follow this as its primary action.

Cutter: Slashes
Flourish: Slashes
Sealed line: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge
Brandish: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge
Calibur: Slashes on combo, Explodes on charge
Hammer/Troika: Slashes on normal, Explodes on charge.
Spurs: Slash and then shoots.

Autoguns: Shoots.
Blaster: Shoots.
Alchemer: Shoots and creates extra Shots on bounce/charge.
Catalyzer: Shoots, sets Explosions on charge.
Pulsar: Shoots, expands to explode at range.
Antigua: Shoots.
Magnus: Shoots.

Blast bomb: Explodes.
Haze bombs: Small Explosion, large status cloud.
Spine Cone: Explodes.
Charges: Small Explosion, pulls in, Explodes.
Dark Retribution: Small Explosion, rotating rings of damage.
Current Shards: Explodes, spreads out, Explodes.

Old Shards: Shoots out single hits in 8 directions.

Now, which weapon doesn't follow this pattern?
If you honestly say that the old RSS was a bomb, then so are the Alchemers.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:48

#29

Lostillusion

As an extension of this, do you really only want three weapons in this game? We can remove all the special options from everything, and just have the Calibur, Blaster and Blast bomb. That'd be fun, right?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:52

#30

Providence

@Lostillusion

Nick DID promise us "new combat options," whatever that means...

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:59

#31

Gwenyvier

The old RSS was over-powered,

The old RSS was over-powered, plain and simple. As has been stated in many threads now it utilized a buggy mechanic that had all 8 shards spawn from the same point, allowing players to blatantly abuse it. It did 5* damage from a 4* weapon. And shot out projectiles that went a good three times further then ANY gun in the game. Yes, that is not over-powered at all...

Yes, they could have changed how it works instead of completely changing it... hmmmm, let us think how. Oh! I know! How about only one shard being able to hit a given target and if more then one hit they're ignored... you know, how the bomb was intended to work from the beginning. Instead they decided to get rid of the buggy mechanic and the laughably insane long distance shots.

The new bombs are actually good if you take the time to learn how to use them, but most of the people complaining aren't doing that. I will admit I would like them to get a slight damage buff or a shorter fuse on the secondary explosion (either one), but that is about it.

As for the Blitz... it is a machine gun, what do you expect it to do? Although if it got a slight damage nerf you wouldn't hear a complaint from me. It's kind of asking for it.

~Gwen

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:09

#32

Roarr

Nj is a suck up to OOO, so

Nj is a suck up to OOO, so its hard not to believe his statements are not biased

a bit more balanced? it barely leaves a scratch to those who are sitting on top of the bomb in pvp.

too OP since beta? no one bothers to say it was too OP till lockdown was launched.

funny how the bomb has being around for longer than a year, and nick would want to change it all the sudden due to "not very bomb-like."

If the range was the main concern, then nerf the range. Changing the mechanics and making it useless in pvp, and inferior to other blast bombs in pve is a joke.

and it is a shard bomb, what do u expect other than shooting out shards? o wait, it did shoot out shards.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:26

#33

Eltia

Tweak RSS then

As I mentioned yesterday in the bring back old RSS petition, the easiest fix to old RSS is to have it mimic a stationary frag grenade. (Please stop reading if you disagree a frag grenade is a bomb.)

How? Just have the shards (the frags) decrease in damage as it travels distance, and have it disappears entirely after certain distance. This is to mimic that frag grenades in real world have limited range (around 15m effective radius with 5m kill radius), they have short fuse time (around 2-5 sec), they have multiple frags (shards) shooting in multiple direction and the damage of the frags (shards) decrease over distance.

This whole argument of "old RSS isn't very bomb like" is BS. Nobody who has some common sense would argue a frag grenade is not a type of bomb. Nick's opinion on old RSS isn't bomb like is because he created an incomplete version of a frag nade in the first place and his opinion was based on this flawed version. The proper fix is therefore to make old RSS more bomb like by cleaning up Nick's misconception of how frag grenades actually work.

Any great designers make mistakes. But what make designers great are because of their humility and be able to admit their mistakes, so that they can improve on their future designs. Nick, do you want to become a great game designer or just a mediocre one? This decision to remove the old RSS based on your rationale is unacceptable to many. I have already informed your CEO about how the community feels about your decision, and I have humbly requested him to have a chat with you.

Nick, please fix this. You show great potential, don't let arrogant get into your way.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:23

#34

Nordlead

eh, PvP is a small blip in

eh, PvP is a small blip in the game. The thing is, people who play PvP seem to make up a large portion of the noisy forum posters.

The Deadly Crystal Bomb is a good zombie killing bomb. (haven't really tried it on mechas). I will go so far as to say it is by FAR the best zombie killing bomb. Sure, the old RSS could 1-shot a single zombie, but the new DCB can handle large groups of zombies with ease. Maybe it is too much for most elite forum posting players to handle, but really the slight pushing around isn't a bid deal.

As for "funny" that it is "not very bomb like", well they changed the Fiery Pepperbox from pulling in monsters to pushing them away months after the gun was introduced claiming that they never intended for it to pull monsters in. Considering how long it took OOO to actually fix the UI freezeup when dieing during a prompt and other various bugs I'm not surprised it took them that long to remove a bomb that wasn't being used as they intended.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:28

#35

Serell

@Lostillusion :

"Guns shoot, Bombs deal AOE (explode), and Swords slash."
No. AoE does not mean explosions. It means AoE. Not all explosions do AoE.

So while guns only have to shoot to be guns, meaning they can do ANYTHING, bombs must be AoE.

MOST guns sacrifice damage for range, which makes sense. but for those gunners that like to get up close and shoot bullets, and don't like to give up damage for range and like being risky, they have the Blitz Needle.

Before the RSS change, MOST bombs were AoE. MOST explosions do AoE, but NOT ALL. There was nothing wrong with a bomb that didn't have great AoE. The RSS was the Blitz Needle of bombs.

"and Swords slash."
Not according to Nick. He says they do a mix of the two. Which means all swords are supposed to shoot bullets and do AoE.
BUT, it should be "swords slash". If guns only have to fire bullets, than swords only need to slash, and bombs only need to be explode. Nick needs some consistency.

"Old Shards: Shoots out single hits in 8 directions."
Nope. It exploded and then shot out shards, like a shrapnel BOMB.

@Gwenyvier : Yes, RSS was OP. What's your point?
"As has been stated in many threads now it utilized a buggy mechanic that had all 8 shards spawn from the same point, allowing players to blatantly abuse it"
And what was so wrong about that? If anything is stupid enough to get on top of a shrapnel bomb, it deserves all 8 shards. It took SKILL to do this.
"It did 5* damage from a 4* weapon."
Then nerf the damage and restore it at 5*.

And who cares if it was not intended to hit a single target with 8 shards? Was shield cancelling intended? Just because it was not intended does not mean it was bad.

Again, not ALL bombs need to be AoE, just like not ALL guns have to sacrifice damage for range (Blitz Needle does the complete opposite of every gun).

"As for the Blitz... it is a machine gun, what do you expect it to do?"
I expect to fire a lot of bullets. It does that.
What do you expect a shard bomb to do? I expect it to shoot out shards.

And I don't care if the new shard bombs are good or not. We could have easily had both. The new and old are nothing alike, so you can't expect someone who loved the old RSS to love the new.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:34

#36

Aumir

Eltia + 1

What Eltia said. It was way easier to modify how the bomb worked than scrap it and make such a weird bomb. If we wanted to be "purists" to the old RSS but without "abusing" shot distance and multiple damage when close by (like... Voltaic Tempest?) They could have made a small Blast Bomb (no knockback) explosion that spawned at the edge of the sphere the 8 shards, and halve the distance they traveled.

There is also many ways bombs could work, like mines, rockets, frag grenades already mentioned, actually throwable grenades... but nope, we must only have "leave and area burst" bombs, while guns and swords have many different patterns.

Like "Death charge at close range" Blitz Needle, with that rapid fire stuff.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:39

#37

Serell

@Eltia

+1, those changes would be great. I admit, I didn't like being sniped by an RSS from a mile away in PvP, so it would be nice if they dealt less damage the further they traveled.

@Nordlead : Other bombs will kill zombies way faster. But the new or old bombs being OP or UP is not the point of this post.

The point is, if guns only need to fire bullets (which does not always mean giving up damage for range), then bombs only need to explode (which does not always mean AoE).

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:41

#38

Fehzor

Nowhere in Nicks "why we're changing RSS" post was it ever mentioned that RSS was too powerful, only that it was too gun like.... which is ridiculous. Yes, it had bullets, but it was almost never used like a gun, and it could have easily been changed to avoid being like a gun in any way by reducing the range of the shards by a bit. No one (or no significant number of people) complained about it, or thought it was over powered until after the update as well.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:41

#39

Njthug

@Roarr

If you knew anything you would of known that bomb was going to be changed a long time back you can find topics on it. The Rss was pre-nerfed after beta not allowing the 5* version of it to be made. Its funny how everyone is complaining about the Rss but not the ionized salt since it worked the same way as the Rss just the ctr time was a bit longer. Oh, btw baby don't get all upset since I don't agree with you. <69

Anyways you guys can argue all you want an petition to bring back the Rss, but I don't think it will happen at all. The Rss is gone time to move on with your life. I guess change is hard for many of you.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:47

#40

Serell

....

Actually, I miss my old ISB. Just most people only care for the RSS, so that's why I'm only talking about it. I would very much like to have my old ISB back, with pure shadow damage, and a faster charge time.

By the way, Nj, you still haven't answered my question. Doy ou believe Nicks statement is fair? "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two". If guns only have to fire bullets, than bombs should only have to explode, and swords should only have to slash. Note that explosions does not always mean AoE, but mostly AoE. Just like guns are MOSTLY about giving up damage for range. But for those that don't like that... they have the Blitz. And for those that liked explosions but not AoE.... they had the RSS.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:50

#41

Byas

"Anyways you guys can argue

"Anyways you guys can argue all you want an petition to bring back the Rss, but I don't think it will happen at all. The Rss is gone time to move on with your life. I guess change is hard for many of you."

If the ME fanbase had though it that way they would never have got the extended cut and would have to do with ME3's crappy ending, even when they payed and supported the game. So I say NO, people need to keep doing petitions and showing OOO that it is not ok to act like nothing is wrong when it is, if we make enough noise we can get things done even if the chances are slim.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:00

#42

Njthug

@Serell

This is why the changes came up:

Currently, shard-style bombs create a series of bullets on detonation, effectively acting like a handgun attack in multiple directions. The new changes will instead cause these bombs to create an initial explosion on detonation that then fires a series of non-damaging shards in multiple directions.

^So like I argued already Rss and Ionized Salt both were gun like bombs.

I believe that and agree with Nick on this statement:

They are the standouts in the system we’ve tried to build whereby: guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two.

They have been trying to build a system where guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the both. Not, all the weapons follow these guidelines in your view or mine, but majority of them do, and most importantly the Game Developers feel they do at this given point (I am not certain of this statement only because I do not work for them or know what they think since I can not read their thoughts, but one day when I can I can be 100% certain).

So conclusion:

Bombs got changed since they were more gun like than bomb like.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:04

#43

Kilmefirst

I made an ISB a while ago for

I made an ISB a while ago for use in LD and I must say that I was quite disappointed in it. The charge time was too slow and the shards were easy to dodge(not as many as RSS due to slower charge). I Put it away and used the mist bombs instead.

A FEW people whine about the RSS being nerfed to hell and I feel like that is all you see on these forums. So for another perspective I will say: I love the new ISB/RSS for LD(I don't bomb in clockworks). Might replace all other status bombs for status infliction/area denial as far as i'm concerned. It's about time we had usable bombs that reliably deal med strength statuses, the small DPS is just a bonus (Though this latest patch was definitely needed).

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:05

#44

Serell

You still don't get it

It is unfair that guns only need to fire bullets.
That allowes them to do single target DPS (antigua), AoE (polaris, alchemers), AND, unlike every other gun, there is the Blitz Needle that is used up-close.

And bombs must be AoE ._.
I say if guns can fire bullets, than bombs only need to explode, which does not always mean AoE, butg mostly.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:07

#45

Serell

...

"I made an ISB a while ago for use in LD and I must say that I was quite disappointed in it. The charge time was too slow and the shards were easy to dodge(not as many as RSS due to slower charge). I Put it away and used the mist bombs instead."

I actually loved mah ISB in LD :P
I would charge it, wait for them to strike up to me, lay it, shock them, and beat em with my Suda!

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:08

#46

Aumir

@Njthug

So, you mean RSS couldn't have turned into an 8-shaped asterisk area?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:09

#47

Dirigible

Wait a second

Can someone explain how bombs are supposed to work in this game? I'm just confused why bombs do so much less damage per second than swords do, and yet a bomb that does damage that exceeds that of a swords (my old RSS still killed Slags slower than my Glacius does) needs a nerf?

Of course you could just do the "hay look newb ur bombs are fur noobs get over it just a game" or the "bombs are meant for groups of enemies or whatever" but I can basically tell that most swords' charge attacks, which take just as long as those of bombs, do the same or more damage than a bomb hit with AoE damage. That's just what I don't get. Why QQ so much about a bomb that was actually worth using?

I get that it was too powerful for a 4*, but instead of making the 4* weaker and adding a 5*, the designers/developers/whoever went the wrong way and nerfed it into oblivion, reducing its effective damage to a much lower number, and then proceeded to create an incredibly delayed mechanic that is very annoying to use (and very for teammates, first-hand experience). Also to add insult to injury they completely removed the elemental damage of the RSS, reducing its effectiveness further against the enemies that I usually use it against (undead).

Now instead of lashing out at swords and guns (some of which need a nerf badly), I'm just going to say that there needs to be some buffs given to this new derpy weapon called the RSS, because its very delayed detonation and bad damage to boot are really not appealing to me as a bomber at the moment, and I'm pretty sure some others would vouch for that too. Now please don't respond to my comment/argument with a snappy remark (to no one in particular) about how the RSS was overpowered (which translates to "does as much damage as a sword's charge attack") or about how the RSS's range was OP (at long range, hitting an enemy with a single shard would do just as much if not less than if a gunner just shot them in the time it took to charge the bomb), or anything like that. Do respond, though, with your nonexistent counterarguments.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:18

#48

Eltia

Fixing old RSS

As someone suggested in the bring back old RSS thread yesterday. One effect RSS could have is stun, because well, when frags hit your target but not killing them, that should impair their movement right? So stun is the perfect effect to accompany RSS.

So in summary, fixing RSS is very easy. We only need two tweaks:

cap the travel distance of RSS' shards, and have the shard's damage decreases as they travel distance. My feeling is that we can use an exponential function here, so the damage drops off very quickly and so a skillful bomber would need to time RSS carefully so that multiple shards would land in short range. So it makes perfect sense for RSS to one shot Slag Guards.
add stun effect to shards.

That's it folks. A true RSS bomb that is very bomb like (it's a frag grenade), suggested by someone who has been playing bomber since Day 1 on SK. And this RSS can co-exists with the new cluster bomb because they serve two different niches for bombers. Cluster bombs are for corridors situation, whereas RSS is for access denial.

It's not hard. OOO didn't do it right the first time because they have been listening / asking the wrong people. Find the right guys to ask (people who play with bombs on a daily basis), be humble and listen to what they said, you would get one good working bomb that everybody loves and 0 rage storm among the playerbase.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:22

#49

Zeddy

@Nordlead

The Deadly Crystal Bomb is a good zombie killing bomb. (haven't really tried it on mechas). I will go so far as to say it is by FAR the best zombie killing bomb.

This statement is about as correct as saying Cautery Sword is by FAR the best sword for killing jellies with.

Yes, it performs fine if you use it right, but:
-Dark Briar Barrage kills more undead faster and it doesn't knock them about randomly, annoying your teammates.
-Nitronome kills more undead faster and it knocks about undead in a predictable fashion, useful for keeping an area safe. What does DCB keep safe? Not much at all.
-Same with Big Angry Bomb and probably Irontech, but I haven't used Irontech.
-Electron Vortex kills more undead at probably the same speed AND it keeps them locked in place which lets party members easily unleash sword attacks to kill them yet faster AND it shocks them.
-If you're comparing it to old RSS: lolnope, no competition.
-If you stand perfectly still and do not do anything at all, your teammates will kill all the undead at about the same speed and take less damage since you're not disturbing them.

So it's rubbish for solo, since other bombs kill them faster, and it's rubbish for teamplay, since other bombs kill them faster and/or interefere with teammates less.

@LostIllusion

Let's look at your list again:

Guns shoot, Bombs deal AOE (explode), and Swords slash.

Firstly, Nick did not say this.

Secondly, Area of Damage does not have to mean explosions, that is narrow minded. Street Fighter's Hadouken creates an area the opposing player does not dare to enter. An area of damage, if you will. This is called zoning.

Thirdly: "Name one weapon that does not follow this as its primary action."
Challenge accepted. Let's not use your narrow definition of "primary action", which appears to be "the first effect you can get out of this weapon by just pressing the button once."

Cutter: Slashes
Flourish: Slashes (technically, stabs since most attacks from it are stabs, but people just slash and shield cancel so that is its primary action)
Sealed line: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge. Charge is arguably primary action for DA.
Brandish: Slashes on combo, Shoots on charge. Charge is primary action, with secondary slashing just used to clear up stray mobs.
Calibur: Slashes on combo, Explodes on charge. Charge arguably primary action.
Hammer/Troika: Slashes on normal, Explodes on charge. Tsubasa-No-Me has informed me that regular attacks are suicide with Triglav. Charge primary action with at least Triglav.
Spurs: Slash and then shoots.

Autoguns: Creates area of damage.
Blaster: Shoots.
Alchemer: Shoots and creates extra Shots on bounce/charge.
Catalyzer: Shoots, sets Explosions on charge. You pretty much lose all credibility by claiming Catalyzer's basic attack is its primary action.
Pulsar: Creates area of knockback.
Antigua: Shoots.
Magnus: Shoots.

Blast bomb: Creates area of knockback and damage.
Haze bombs: Creates area of status.
Spine Cone: Creates area of damage and knockdown-
Charges: Gathers enemies
Dark Retribution: Creates smaller area of high damage.
Current Shards: Creates heated forum debates.

Old Shards: Dispatches of small groups of enemies.

Or, we could use your narrow definition!

Old Shards: Explodes, then sends out shards. See how exploding happened first? That means it's the primary action, dude!

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:57

#50

Lostillusion

@Serell
"Nope. It exploded and then shot out shards, like a shrapnel BOMB."
Did the explosion actually do damage? Was there ever a time you said "I'm glad I has the RSS explosion there"? If you were on top of them with it, you were multi-hitting with the shards, which you can still do with an Alch. I have never once heard someone actually use the explosion area as the primary reason for using the RSS, which doesn't help much for making it a bomb other than in name.

"Before the RSS change, MOST bombs were AoE. MOST explosions do AoE, but NOT ALL. There was nothing wrong with a bomb that didn't have great AoE. The RSS was the Blitz Needle of bombs."
You started this topic by quoting Nick, "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two." So yes every bomb should create an area of damage. Every shard only dealt 1 set of damage to a single target. This is not how AOE attacks work.

"Again, not ALL bombs need to be AoE, just like not ALL guns have to sacrifice damage for range (Blitz Needle does the complete opposite of every gun)."
Mid range is still safe and effective damage for the Blitz. You can't really say you did good damage only using the explosion on the RSS. The point I was making was that people keep using this argument when the old RSS fails at dealing any damage to more than 1 target in a direction.

"And for those that liked explosions but not AoE"
You are doing it wrong. How do you cause an explosion that does not affect what is in the the blast radius?

It sounds more like you have no idea what you want.

"Fragmentation Grenade"
Yes, this is a bomb. however, to use this as a basis on why the RSS should have not been changed is silly. A grenade does not shoot out shrapnel farther than most gun, nor can you stand 2 feet away from it and not get hurt. There is a place for this kind of bomb, but the old RSS was not this. All it needed was a tweaking to make it a bomb, but that's neither here nor there.

Honestly, Eltia's bomb is all that was needed in this situation.

@Zeddy
If you want to be literal, then yes, he said they dealt close range AOE damage, with the possibility of long range attacks. How does this change my list?

Using a basic action to create the effect was my definition. As you just pointed out, every sword has a close range attack that has no charge-up. Every gun has a long range attack. Every bomb excpet the old RSS deals damage to every target within a radius. Which weapon is wrong?

"Hadoken"
...Did you just say every single attack that shoots out a projectile is an AOE? So every gun should be considered a bomb as well?

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