So how do you cause an explosion to not have a large area of effect?
"I don't understand why you guys keep on pointing out the old RSS's flaws"
No one ever says "Fix the problems with the old RSS and reimplement it." They only say "Give us back the old RSS [with no changes]." There were so many better ways to do this change, but none of them were used. Still, the loudest people for getting the old RSS back sound like they don't want any changes at all.
"but we all truly know Nj = Nice Junk."
Nice one. Nice one indeed.
"So how do you cause an explosion to not have a large area of effect?"
... You've never seen a concentrated explosion? I don't know what to say.
"No one ever says "Fix the problems with the old RSS and reimplement it." They only say "Give us back the old RSS [with no changes]." There were so many better ways to do this change, but none of them were used. Still, the loudest people for getting the old RSS back sound like they don't want any changes at all."
Sorry if it sounds like we don't want anything changed, but I believe most of us wouldn't mind a few changes. We just don't like the complete redo of mechanics.
So you are basically saying a frag grenade is more gun than bomb too? the logic of saying the old rss and isb are more gun like is absurd.
If people are really pulling the reality card here then I'd also like it if the bomb fuse time begins the moment the bomb is fully charged instead of waiting for the fuse to start when it's placed. The explosion (and shards) should also be able to damage the player that the bomb belongs to. I'm willing to compromise on it not causing friendly fire for griefing purposes but it really ought to be able to hurt the user as bombs do.
It had no useable attack area, only single damage shards.
V
So the Alchemer is a bomb?
Single damage shards that shot out in 8 diferent directions around the bomb. I think that is bomb-like enough.
Hahaha. Ha. Ha. Kinda funny now that I think on it because when I made a thread for the much-needed nerf to flourish line swords, I was shot down because "so many people had invested time and in some cases money in it." Well, now they've screwed us over in the exact same way that I was told was unfair and OOO and the people who protested to me aren't saying a thing. Hahaha. Also I though I remembered Nick making a post specifically saying that he WOULD NOT change crystal bomb lines. Hahaha. Ha.
"Also I though I remembered Nick making a post specifically saying that he WOULD NOT change crystal bomb lines. Hahaha. Ha."
Really? O.o Link would be much appreciated.
@Artistbma
I went out played basketball with a few friends, then drove to Trader Joes got myself some spicy Guac + Chips n a few other items....After this....I bumped into a friend at the plaza I was at I dropped off my bags in my car....We walked around went to Red Mango n ate n chatted about life...She invited me back to her house for a few to relax n chill....so I accepted the offer talked some more. After all of that was done I headed to the gym and worked out....ate dinner and ended back with you guys still arguing over this bomb which many of you don't even know how to use correctly.
@Michaelb --- Thus the tickets were some type of remedy if you did happen to own any of those bombs. Might not have been the most desired remedy, but its better than nothing.
@Serell --- Rss was better than most guns could use it against mainly any type of monster type and own them. The range and power on the bomb was absurd. If you knew how to use it you could aim a lot better and hit multiple targets at once.
@Fallconn --- Naw you didn't I blocked the falcon punch
@Serell, I think that was concerning the old proposition of turning the RSS and ISB to pure damage weapons.
@Njthug, The current shard bomb's effectiveness to difficulty of use ratio is way off right now. Even if you get those perfect shard landings, that rarely ever come (due to bugs) and the monsters just sit on top of them for a while, the damage is sub-par.
@Njthug
Hmm... Interesting. I was sitting in FSC waiting to get revved while a rocket flew over my head shot by a mechanical dog. Typical day.
Endy....Whai...
[EDIT] BTW what's "bogus formatting"?
"you guys still arguing over this bomb which many of you don't even know how to use correctly. "
What makes you think I don't know how to use them? I know how to use them. This CANNOT replace the old shard bombs. They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND HAVE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT USE, so you can't expect anyone who loved the old to love the new.
"Rss was better than most guns could use it against mainly any type of monster type and own them. The range and power on the bomb was absurd. If you knew how to use it you could aim a lot better and hit multiple targets at once. "
Here we go again. List all flaws of the old RSS that you want. I admit it was kinda broken. But it did not have enough to completely change its mechanics! Look, I am someone who always feared a RSS user in LD. I found it very difficult to focus on both the bomb and a striker clone. But I never felt it was unfair.... Though later I realized it was somewhat OP, and getting hit by shards out of no where got really annoying. But it took skill to really use it, you couldn't just spam it. I remeber bombers leading me into traps and SURPRISE! Shard to the face.
"If you knew how to use it you could aim a lot better and hit multiple targets at once"
First off, no. Guns are mcuh easier to aim. Second, most bombs are about hitting multiple targets.
Nj, look at Eltia's proposed changes to the old RSS. I believe that would work just fine. The shards would decrease in damage the further they flew. It was not broken to the point of completely changing it. Really, I hear WAY more complaints about teh Flourish and Polaris...
@Oatmonster : "@Serell, I think that was concerning the old proposition of turning the RSS and ISB to pure damage weapons."
Well um... they kinda did that O.o
@Serell: Ah, it seems to have somehow been removed from the forums. So much for that. 14 minutes of digging for it went to waster, anyway.
*RAGE*
I'll be ranting over this periodically about each post about that I can find.
I don't care that much about the recent changes but I got to say...
...It's funny how these people (those defending any update OOO's making no matter what) find the RSS OP when I never or rarely read any complaint about it before the update. If it was OP for so long where were you guys? I've read multiple complaints about DA or Blitz Needle beeing OP, about Polaris or Piercing swords for sure, heck, some people were even complaining about Brandish charges beeing OP, but complaints about RSS? Let's face it and be honnest to yourselves, you never found that item particularly OP until recently for some mystical reasons (read, for standing against the general opinion for the lulz).
But heh, eight shards hitting at once were OP right? Really? It takes a relative ammount of patience and prediction/knowledge to kill a regular mob in this game with 8 shards. And depending on the size of the party, it might not even kill it...Talk about OP...So many effort to potentially one shot a freaking single target. It is only easy to use against relatevely big mobs, and there aren't much in this game. That's what Nick stated in the update, I believe, saying the shard mechanics were buggy when used against big mobs. Well, let's see, we've trojan, lumbers, the Royal Jelly and Vanaduke. You can cancell the RH, as it's unusable with the knock-back now. Vanaduke, well, it takes absurd ammout of skill to take him down with it, it is nowhere OP against him, all the contrary, I've in the highest respect people who managed to beat him with it. Then trojans and lumbers, this bomb, even if you're in solo didnd't allow for a one shot kill I believe? Frankly if this bomb was OP, then all the weapons are OP...
So OOO, why wouldn't you let people play with their bomb if they liked to? It's not like if they were clearing mobs effortlessly, like I could do with spamming haze bombs for instance. Yeah, you didn't know? Haze bombs (the damage dealing ones of course) will destroy any horde way much faster than the RSS will ever do. So to summ it up, the RSS was not shining against anything in particular, you will always find a ton of weapons that would do the job better no matter the situation, thus you really can't call it OP. If you still think it is, instead of saying it is because it hits with 8 shards and blablabla, give me a couple of *concret* examples when the RSS would clean some levels insanely faster than a non OP weapon should, cause that's what OP would be.
And about it beeing not designed to hit with all the shards. Seriously? Like when you designed it, you really had no idea people would try to make it explode next to a target? C'mon...This can't be serious.
EDIT: thinking about it, you know what is OP? The way too long cool-down before an ennemy can move, that's what makes things OP...
So your definition really did only include the basic attack rather than what the weapon was used for.
Okay, here's the basic attack for bombs, see if you can spot my very subtle point:
Blast bomb: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Haze bombs: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Spine Cone: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Charges: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Dark Retribution: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Current Shards: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Old Shards: Lift the bomb over your head, readying it for a charge.
Seems consistent to me!
...Did you just say every single attack that shoots out a projectile is an AOE? So every gun should be considered a bomb as well?
No. Polaris is AoE, Antigua is not. And once again AoE does not mean it's a bomb. Next to every sword covers an area, and most of them rival the area nRSS covers.
Can I try to settle something?
RSS was NOT OP.
First note the definition of Overpowered gear: A SINGLE piece of gear is considered overpowered when it does a number of functions so much better than its alternatives that nobody would really consider choosing said alternatives.
Was this the case with RSS/ISB? Not so much.
RSS was reasonably good at two specific roles that bombers had no real alternatives: A single target DPS weapon and a sniping weapon. The only thing that could be seriously considered an alternative would be the nitronome, which was geared for a damaging crowd control role rather than DPS and the Ash of Angi which was strictly AoE multi-target damage.
In practice, the Nitronome due to offering BOTH crowd control and wide AOE multi-target damage is virtually irreplaceable in a bombers loadout. If you could master using a nitro with mad bomber, you were almost unstoppable in most levels except for bosses and a few places in danger missions/shadow Lairs. If nitro ended up up not being enough for holding crowds at bay, bombers could fall back onto Ash of Angi for safer if less powerful damage or Shivermist for powerful Crowd control.
The RSS was never really good in situations like these. It could be compared to DVS or blitz needle in having a rather specific set of applications and happening to be REALLY good at them.
Blitz is for Vanaduke and trojans due to the need for DPS and piercing damage Crits
DVS is good for Vanaduke and JK (due to poison) but does not stack up as well anywhere else due to being a normal damage weapon and therefor lacking the ability to deal special damage CRITS.
RSS had good use due to its ability to deal both element and piercing Crits.
It was decent against small packs of scuttlebots, lumbers, chromas and retrodes but it this case received stiff competition from nitronome. Trojans and zombies due to crits were the only extreme cases where RSS could clearly outperform nitro when enough skill was applied. All the enemies stated had predicable and easily dodged attacks which made then much easier to approach to plant RSS bombs at point blank range for multi-hits. Without multi-hits, RSS could not compete well with nitronome, even with Crits.
RSS could have appeared to be OP due to the main money making levels in the game (FSC) being filled with almost NOTHING BUT zombies and trojans (the two enemies that RSS was at peak effectiveness against). Even with this I would NEVER go to FSC without nitro because of its crowd damage and knockback ability being just so effective. RSS damage was always capped at a max of about 380x8 while nitro's damage output and the importance of knockback could scale much higher as the number of enemies increased.
The one thing that RSS could do that nitro could not was sniping turrets but the usefulness of this was very situational. Still RSS was good to have when it could fill in the gaps left by the otherwise amazing nitronome/Shivermist/AoA loadout.
PVP was a different story however. RSS became THE bomb of Lockdown because like other widely used weapons it had the three critical qualities of good Lockdown gear: Longer range, Speed (The super short fuse was a HUGE deal), and Special damage (elemental especially) which would often translation into great effective damage. It was the only bomb that had any respectable 1v1 capacity
With all this it really was only amazing when the opponents did not understand the best ways to deploy RSS in Lockdown. When they did, traps could be avoided, sniping was difficult if a target was dancing around on the cap and shards were easily dodged dude to the predictable flight paths. This could be mitigated if the opponent was distracted by another player but landing hits still required getting close or getting lucky.
Some may still disagree but I back my opinions from using RSS, nitro and shiver in my loadout of choice for nearly every level and LD match I have played since around December of last year. In those months I went on A LOT of runs either alone or with guildmates/friends.
In the end what I loved about RSS was that it was unique among bombs, satisfying to use, and offered a very fun playstyle. Changing RSS was a very bad idea. I am very saddened for RSS to go and think that no matter how much the new bomb get buffed, they will only end up being power-creeping nitronome successors/clones. They will never be able to replace RSS.
Now I think I will go ahead and quit the game for a while until OOO finally stops ruining the game.
RIP RSS.
There's a good few guns that shoot bombs.
Polaris: Shoots bombs that shock.
Valiance: Charging it causes a massive bomb that has insane knockback.
Callahan: self explanitory. EVEN in a patch the "explosion radius" of the bullet was bumped up.. WHAT?!
The way I see it, is that the old RSS was the bomber's only way to compete with gunners and swordsman. And it couldn't just be spammed like most AoE bombs can be. It required skill. And if you didn't have skill, you were going to miss people all the time.
Old RSS had 2 damage types of equal amount: Elemental and piercing. Now RSS have strictly piercing. Comparing old and new damage: in full mad i can scratch off bits of health from your local skolver where as before this update it only took 3. Mind you yes, it was a little bit overpowered, but what about swords without damage bonuses? I'd dare say a flourish without full skolver or any damage bonus wouldn't stand that much of a chance.
The unfortunate thing about this change is that I can no longer offensively bomb against a striker or gunner... strictly support now...
I'm still wondering why people think any Shard bomb at all was OP. There WAS no OP shard bomb, RSS or otherwise. There was only a line of bombs using the wrong mechanics. As Nick said "Guns shoot bullets, bombs make explosions and/or AoE, and Swords do a mix of the two."
The problem with the OLD RSS is that its not using the right mechanics. Bombs are supposed to cause explosions or AoE on large areas, not fire shrapnell and have no actual explosion damage. Thats not even considednt to a grenade, wich also causes damage but sends shrapnel in the air too. :/
Guns on the other hand are supposed to use various ammunition, to fire projectiles at long distances. To counter than we have things like Catalyzers wich cause small explosions, but thats still within resonable sence, due to the gun firing magnetic pulses, or a Calahan wich also causes a small explosion on charge. But I'm sure somebody already whent over those.
Swords on the other hand are meant to be in the middle, since they can boath create AoE, explosions and fire projectiles, but have a limited range.
And they cant do all of it at once. A Combuster can create explosions, a Barberous Thorn Blade can fire Barbs, while the Leviathan blade causes a small AoE effect, but all of them are within resonable boundries.
As for the old RSS, if we had to make it into a gun, you would have a gun that causes melle attacks or slashes. And that dosen't make any sence, what so ever.. What OOO did with the RSS is just turn in into a bomb, Not a shrapnell dispencer you can carry around if your too lazy to make a gun. The old RSS didnt work like a bomb at all, bombs cause explosions or AoE, not projectile attacks. Its meant to have low to medium range while retaining things like Knock-back and damage, not fire bullets like a gun and hit things way out of a normal bombs reach..
So if your still complaining about how the New RSS sucks or the old one is great, think about the definition of the word "Bomb" and what a bomb realy has to do. I persionaly don't own a shard bomb, but just because it didn't work like an actual bomb, but dosent mean I dont know how to use it, and what its supposed to do.
When you are a child and your parents took away your favourite toy over the summer because they bought you a toy that has more "education" value?
How does that feel? Or you can't feel at all because you already lost touch of the "fun" factor in SK, and how people who play you game actually feels?
"I'm still wondering why people think any Shard bomb at all was OP. There WAS no OP shard bomb, RSS or otherwise. There was only a line of bombs using the wrong mechanics. As Nick said "Guns shoot bullets, bombs make explosions and/or AoE, and Swords do a mix of the two.""
The thing is, if guns only have to fire bullets, than bombs only need to be charged, placed down, and explode to be a bomb. Nicks KNOWS if he descibed guns as anything else, his beloved Blitz Needle would fall out of line. Since guns only have to fire bullets, that means they can do ANYTHING. Single target DPS (Antigua), AoE (Pulsar/Alchemer). But all those guns had something in common.... they sacrificed damage for range. But what about the gunner that likes to be risky and doesn't enjoy giving up his damage for safety? Well then there's the Blitz Needle that goes against every other gun in the game.
Why must bombs be STRICTLY AoE, when gun only have to fire bullets? If guns only need to fire bullets, than bombs only need to be set and explode.
Was RSS gun-like? Yes, so what? It's not like if you saw someone using an RSS you would walk up to them and say, "Hey, nice gun". No, you would say, "Hey, nice bomb". And Polaris is bomb-like as well.
"Bombs are supposed to cause explosions or AoE on large areas, not fire shrapnell and have no actual explosion damage"
Not all bombs. There are lots of bombs that are meant to make concentrated, small blast for single targets. Just like not all guns are for long distance or single targets.
Again, if a gun only needs to shoot, then it's only fair that a bomb only needs to be set and explode.
"So if your still complaining about how the New RSS sucks or the old one is great,"
No, that is not the point of this post. I could care less if the old or new are OP or UP. I actually believe the old were somewhat OP, but ti wasn't broken to the point of completely changing. No, not when I heard waaaaay more complaints about other stuff. The point is that Nicks statement is unfair, "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two"
What it should be : Guns fire bullets, bombs explode, and swords slash.
@Artistbma: No, I did, because it was around midnight here and I couldn't organize my thoughts correctly, so I'll rant about it next chance I get to post.
People, what Serell is saying is that if Bombs can ONLY do AoE, thne it's unfair that guns and swords both have the general effects of "shooting bullets." What he means, specifically, is that according to Nick's rule, a bomb can only do AoE, such as the Nitronome's blast, where it creates an "Area of Effect," but guns can have any effect so long as they still "shoot bullets." According to Nick's rule, a gun could shoot Divine Avengers in a 16-shot clip, and they would still not receive a nerf.
Yes a bomb only needs to be put down and explode ot be considered a bomb. The point there was that the old RSS didnt act like a bomb after detonation. A bomb, as you said, only should have an AoE. Not fire bullets or projectiles, because thats not what bombs do, they blow stuff up, not spam with shrapnel. And yes I know there are a fiew REAL bombs that are meant to do exacly that, but lets face it, have you ever seen a real Catalyser, or a Vigilance? And if you realy take the old RSS and give it an explosion radius, reduce the damage of all the projectiles and all make them have a range just a bit outside the initial blast radius, you'd have yourself a good RSS. If you look around, the DBB is actualy working in the same princibles, it fires spikes, but insted of firing actual phisical projectiles it just causes an explosion that deals damage.
As for the Blitz needle, Its still considered a gun and won't fall out even if Nick said it otherwise. Its still a gun and works like one, it fires projectiles at an arc infront of it. Therefor still retains all its "Gun" qualities. A gun is still a gun no matter what kind of projectile it fires, as long as its within some reasonable boundries and power values (You cant have an Agent Peacemaker shooting grenades or DA projectiles, now can ya?). Hell, if you want to make a gun that shoots mini Da's then do it, its still going to be a gun, but you'd have to make it with low damage, to prevent it from being OP. But lets face it, nobody's going to do that from the sheer fact that its going to look ridiculous.
Also the Mist bombs are also considered AoE. All actual bombs at to this point are AoE, explosives, mists its all Area of Effect. The difference is the effect, with the mist you have weak damage from the initial mist discharge and then a Status attack, while with something like Nitronome you have only the Initial damage but with knock-back and a more powerfull explosion. They're all AoE because they have an Effect over an Area, therefore are AoE weapons.
I'm guessing thats what Nick realy wanted to say, he didnt mean that all bombs need to create an explosion or mist, he just wanted to say that a bomb that shoots bullets is not how a bomb should work.
"The point there was that the old RSS didnt act like a bomb after detonation."
Yes it did. It acted like a Shrapnel bomb. It exploded and sent shards flying.
"A bomb, as you said, only should have an AoE"
Woah woah woah, where did I say that? I am pretty sure I said MOST bombs should be AoE. Not ALL. Like MOST guns should sacrifice damage for range. But for those that don't like that, they have the Blitz. The RSS was the Blitz of bombs.
"And if you realy take the old RSS and give it an explosion radius, reduce the damage of all the projectiles and all make them have a range just a bit outside the initial blast radius, you'd have yourself a good RSS"
Yeah, that doesn't sound too bad. The reason we are upset is that they completely changed it into something else that has a different use.
"As for the Blitz needle, Its still considered a gun and won't fall out even if Nick said it otherwise. Its still a gun and works like one, it fires projectiles at an arc infront of it. Therefor still retains all its "Gun" qualities"
Yes. That's what I am saying. Nick says guns only need to fire bullets to be guns, therefore bombs should only have to explode to be a bomb, and swords should only need to slash to be a sword. The old RSS was still a bomb. If you saw someone using the old RSS, would you honestly believe it was a gun, or a bomb that is gun-like?
EDIT : In-case it isn't clear, when I say bombs should only need to explode since guns only need to fire bullets, that does not mean they should be strictly AoE. Explosions can be concentrated on single targets.
While I am a bit late to this discussion, I'd just like to point out that the old RSS was NOT a single-target based weapon. Reasons are as follows:
1) There is an area around the bomb where, no matter how you positioned yourself, you're still gonna get hit by 1 or more shards. Does this not create an Area of Damage similar to how Nitro/DBB/mist bombs do?
2) The individual shards have a small AoE around them when they hit an enemy. For instance, using the following illustration:
--A
B^C
--|
--|
--|
If a shard flew in the path of the arrow and hit zombie A at a perfect 90degree angle, zombies B and C also gets damaged. This is why, if you know the maximum range of the shards, you can hit things that are around corners or if you are unable to position yourself such that the shard hits the enemy directly (most notable in puppy room of D26 in KoA, where you can use RSS to kill zombies in the area opposite the entrance).
It is quite hilarious that there are people arguing that the old RSS was OP, and yet demonstrate that they have little to no understanding of its mechanic. It's also equally hilarious that OOO decides to change old RSS, yet they leave the Blitz alone, which operates in the exact same way that old RSS did - they can be used to hit things far away, but can also be used to shotgun an enemy at close range.
Already plenty of videos showing how much the new RSS sucks. Pretty bad when a nitronome can kill wolver dens faster then the 5 star piercing line.
@ Zeddy
By your example, no bomb have any effect, which is obviously not true. Since bombs only have one action, there is only one area to look at. Instead of trying to twist my statement, why not answer my question. Which weapon(s) don't follow the basis premise of "Shoot, Slash, Explode"?
@ Serell
What is it you mean when you say "Explode"? Just a flashy effect? If you only want to hit a few targets, why not use a sword? Why is it a bad thing that every bomb be expected to hit multiple targets in a wide area? I'm not saying there can't be a bomb that shoots out AFTER creating a large area, but the core idea behind bombs is that they work on many targets at once. The problem here is that you are saying just having a charge should make a bomb, regardless of what it does. Should a bomb exists that only deals damage at sword range? Only shoots a single bullet in the direction it was facing?
@Griseolar Alchemers work the same way. Are they bombs? I don't think it was OP, there are other weapons that have similar effects and uses, But something labeled as a bomb shouldn't be able to snipe every gun. To the same extent, That area which you would be assured a hit is tiny, and blockable by a single target. AOE by nature isn't limited by a single target's positioning. It's supposed to effect everything within its area.
@Allunova You will be missed.
@Lostillusion
Yes, Alchemers work the same way, and no, they are not bombs. Similarly to how RSS acts like a gun, but no, they are not guns. It's called variety. Using your logic, something labelled as a gun shouldn't be able to outdamage every sword, yet the Blitz does just that.
And about the AoE of the shards, they DO effect everything within its area, it's just that the AoE is so small that only 1 enemy can fit into it on either sides of the shard. This does not mean it has no AoE, because then it wouldn't even be able to damage zombies B and C.
"it's just that the AoE is so small that only 1 enemy can fit into it on either sides of the shard"
Without arguing over semantics, this is true. The point I was making was that the old RSS was ineffective at creating the AOE needed from bombs. Again, AOE by nature isn't limited by a single target's positioning. It's supposed to effect everything within its area.
Maybe the Blitz should be nerfed as well. Lets look at this. Three neutral targets are clumped up together, as is common in FSC. Using the Blitz charge takes about 2 seconds to shoots 15 bullets. Each bullet can only apply 121 damage once. No matter how targets you hit, the total damage can not exceed 1815. On the other hand, a Glacius charge and 2 explosions hit all three of them for (531+117+117) 765 damage; They are next to a wall/frozen, so you can finish the combo for another (203+292) 495 damage, 1260 total. Since you hit all three with this, the Glacius does 3780 damage to the group, in about 2 seconds. The charge and 2/5th of the explosive damage still dealt 2295, 480 more than the Blitz in half the time. From there, you can use the Blitz's normal attack (372, less than the two hits above maximum) or you can charge up again and take 1-2 more charges to kill the remaining two.
Blitz is the unquestionable kind of single target DPS, but this situation is very common in most fights. You can also use the Blitz at a range for a cost of missing 0-5 bullets, depending on the distance. There was no way to use the old RSS to hit more than 8 targets.
As an added bonus, a properly place Alch shot can do 1130 per charge between two targets, and can do 3 charges to the Blitz 2. That's only 240 less after 1 cycle.
@Zeddy
But how can you hit anything using just the explosion?
" The point I was making was that the old RSS was ineffective at creating the AOE needed from bombs. Again, AOE by nature isn't limited by a single target's positioning. It's supposed to effect everything within its area."
As if current shards/ dark retribution dont have blind spots -.- Please, expalin more.
You can't, not unlike how you can't hit anything with a Stagger Storm or Electron Vortex using just the explosion. Care to explain the relevancy of this?
In fact, you can do pretty good damage using the initial blast of mist bombs on Undead/mechs, considering that's the only part that deal damage.
Edit: I realized I forgot to explain why this matters. The old shards Would only deal damage where a shard hit, and then only once. Retribution covers the area encircled by the rotating orbs with a single hit as the spawn, even if the center is left open afterwards. the new Shards deal damage to everything in its center blast, and then deals 8 smaller areas shortly afterwards. Mist bombs deal damage in about a 2* radius while the status mist spawns. So while there is a small gap between the outside ring of the new Shards, and none at all in the DR, They still cover an area which is lacking in the old Shards.
The initial blast of RSS dealt pretty good damage, too. The reason why you're noticing the blast from mist bombs more than from RSS is that RSS added effect was even more damage. Enemies close enough to RSS to be hit by the blast if it was a mist bomb would almost certainly be hit by RSS in one way or another.
Some questions, so that I may understand your definition better:
-If Dark Retribution, Haze bombs and Vortex bombs skipped their initial explosion and jumped straight to their secondary effect, would they still be bomb-like?
-If the mechanical effect of Dark Briar Barrage matched its visual effect, would it still be bomb-like? That is, if the bomb shot out a spread of dozens of needles. What if there was a large blast followed by these needles? What if the needles pierced and were clustered so tight that anything within its radius was guaranteed to be hit?
Is there even an official definition of AoE? I can argue that the old RSS still had an effective AoE because it sends out 8 shards in 8 directions over a long distance and thus, is able to cover a large AoE. The shard stops when it hits a target, but does that automatically mean it doesn't have AoE? No. It still covered an area, and while said area appeared ineffective to you, it most certainly appeared effective to me and many others.
The thing is though, if an enemy was close enough to be hit by the initial explosion of the old RSS, you are only hitting one target. The radius there was so small that most swords have a larger one, and to use it removed any chance of hitting multiple targets.
Dark Retribution - Deals damage in a large circle over time, so yes, this is still AOE.
Haze bomb - Applies status over a large area, so yes, this is still AOE.
Vortex - Traps enemies in a small area, so yes, this is still AOE.
DBB: Piercing needles: This makes it work exactly like it does now, perhaps with extra hits
Explosion+needles: It works as it does now, with extra hits.
Multi-projectile: Looking at the other choices, this would assumedly stop on hit, meaning you are just shooting bullets. Can we set some Blitzes in a circle and call that a bomb? Everything behind the front line is still not getting hit, so it's not really creating an area of effect, just a single line of damage.
Does OOO have an official definition? Not that I've seen. However, most everywhere else the definition is pretty standard (An effect that affects an area). Using Guild Wars as the primary example, there's a pretty clear differentiation between things that shoot projectiles and things that affect an area, even when they do both.
The Alchemer has the same kind of charge attack as the old RSS, but everyone is quick to point out that it's a gun. How are the two different once they start dealing damage? I've yet to see anyone claim that it's a bomb thrower like the Polaris, so what does that say about the RSS?
I've gone and read the 4 MMO's definitions of AoE, and what you fail to bring up here is that they specify that AoE involves hitting multiple targets within an area. Does this not involve the old RSS as well? Assuming you're planting it in the middle of a crowd and not right at the enemy's feet, the shards it sends out hits multiple targets within an area, which falls perfectly into the definition of AoE as laid out by you in those links provided.
Your analogy of it creating just a single line of damage and not an AoE would hold true only if it fired off a single shard. However, it fires off 8 shards with 8 different single lines of damage - doesn't this constitute as having an AoE? Or are you just going to continue calling it '8 single lines of damage'? I repeat myself: The AoE was effective enough for myself and numerous other bomb users, it's just sad that Nick felt otherwise.
What Nick is probably implying is that:
Swords deal high damage, but has short range
Guns deal low damage, but has long range
Bombs deal fair damage, but also has fair range, not to mention capable of hitting multiple targets over that range.
What was wrong with the shards is that it happened to be a bizarre mix of gun and sword, but not exactly a bomb. That is, in close range it would deal as much damage as a sword, and it has even higher range than a gun, despise the fixed direction of the "bullets". And that's what made it OP. And 3rings/sega decided to make it more bomb-like. Of course it didn't ended up as well as it should, but that can be easily fixed if they either buffed the damage or reduce the time it takes to explode or even tweaking a bit the mechanics on it. I really don't see a big fuss about it.
A large explosion followed by needles is alright, apparently! Does this mean RSS would be fine if the initial blast was simply larger? Or would the amount of projectiles also have to increase?
Guns deal low damage, but has long range
*Reads comment* *looks at blitz needle*... yeah, sure.
That is, in close range it would deal as much damage as a sword
And what is wrong with a bomb that in certain conditions could do as much damage a sword, exactly?
and it has even higher range than a gun, despise the fixed direction of the "bullets".
That's true, but instead of making it give less damage the farther it traveled or even nerfing the range they go ahead and delete the bomb... totally fair huh.
And that's what made it OP.
Bomb almost gets on par with a gun/sword, calls it OP. lol
"Did the explosion actually do damage? Was there ever a time you said "I'm glad I has the RSS explosion there"? "
Maybe they could increase the explosion damage and decrease the shard damage? I still fail to see why they had to completely redo the mechanics...
"You started this topic by quoting Nick, "Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two." So yes every bomb
should create an area of damage. Every shard only dealt 1 set of damage to a single target. This is not how AOE attacks work."
Yes, but I do not agree with what Nick says...
"Mid range is still safe and effective damage for the Blitz"
I don't know about you, but I never see people doing mid-range unless they're fighting Vanaduke..
"You are doing it wrong. How do you cause an explosion that does not affect what is in the the blast radius?"
Sorry, maybe I didn't make this clear. When I think of AoE, I think large of large areas of damage.
"A grenade does not shoot out shrapnel farther than most gun"
Then reduce the range? Again, not a reason to completely change the mechanics...
I don't understand why you guys keep on pointing out the old RSS's flaws. Yes, it had flaws. But it was not horribly flawed to the point of completely changing the mechanics and giving it a totally different use. Eltia's shard bomb sounds great. I need something like that. These new bombs are supposed to be stacked together, but I'm a hybird who likes to switch through his weapons frequently while in combat, so these new shard bombs don't work for me.