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Minor Weapon Tweaks

32 replies [Last post]
Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:11
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster

This is a compilation of a few tweaks that I think would be appropriate.

Brandish Lines
Drop one explosion from the charges of each of the status Brandishes. Right now, the other 5* Brandish lines have the advantage of a chance of status on their charge attacks. I think adding a sixth explosion would balance the charges.
Electron Vortex
Add a tooltip to the description showing it's chance to cause shock. Right now this is missing
Graviton Vortex
Add a chance to inflict poison with the same chance and strength as the EV. Right now, there is almost no point in using the Graviton over the Electron.
Punch Gun
Change the description to indicate that it can fire twice. Right now it states: "Used to blast open damaged drop pods, this emergency rescue tool doubles nicely as a powerful, single shot handgun.
Deconstructor Line
Drop the construct damage bonus, buff the damage to be on par with blast line, add a 5* (Darkfang Bomb), and switch the damage to pure elemental. This bomb is pretty much a bad nitronome right now, without a 5*. The construct high is hard to work into loadouts without stopping at ultra or wasting a damage bonus. Switching the line to elemental would give this line a purpose, and give bombers an elemental blast style weapon.
Catalyzer Lines
A few changes that could help improve the Catalyzer lines are; charge shot explosion after monster death, charge shot explosion after expiration, Charge pellet speed increase, explosions setting of charged shots, and an general damage increase.
Pulsar Lines
Drop the clip size down to two bullets, or remove interruption on unexpanded pellets.
Cutter Lines
Remove knockback on the primary swings. Right now, knockback from these swings usually knocks enemies out of range of the second strikes.
Sun, 09/09/2012 - 12:27
#1
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Scaling down the damage of the other lines or up Nightblade line as Alchemers have would probably be better.

Electron and Graviton are balanced against each other strangely. Electron still has shock in spite of its stats not showing it and Graviton is pure shadow damage, a disadvantage for most of the higher difficulty areas where most enemies has shadow defense. I would go with one of the following:

  • Decrease Electron suction radius (~0.5 radius loss at 5*, ~0.33 radius loss at 4*, ~0.16 radius loss at 3* compared to Graviton line)
  • Increase Graviton suction radius (see above; instead of radius loss, radius increase)
  • Increase Graviton damage by ~15%
  • Increase movement speed while charging Graviton by ~17%
  • Add poison to Graviton (same rates as the shock on Electron, though the rate is missing on its list of effects)
  • Decrease charge time required to charge Graviton by 0.5 seconds

Derp descriptions are herp. Some items have no descriptions.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 13:24
#2
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

I personally think that we should keep this simple; make acheron's explosions do more damage (JUST THE EXPLOSIONS). Lug, I still don't get why you want to nerf an entire sword line just to balance the charge. It makes more sense just to nerf the single aspect of the sword that makes it stronger, or buff the other one (make the explosions stronger/weaker).

As for the shadow damage part, this is not an imbalance in weapons, it is an imbalance in levels. We shouldn't go around buffing every shadow damage weapons because there are more undeads than slimes. Rather, OOO should release more content to balance such affairs. This is like making umbra stronger than prisma; it unbalances LD and overall just makes certain parts of the game easier, without checking if they're actually unbalanced in difficulty. Adding poison to graviton doesn't make much sense. I'd rather just see it get a bit more damage, but it doesn't really matter much.

The tooltip problems need to get fixed.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 13:34
#3
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

In Alchemer lines the shadow variant has no status but more base damage than the status inflicting lines. With Brandish lines Nightblade has no status either but has the same base damage as the status inflicting lines. Shadowtech line has around 15% more base damage than the status inflicting Alchemer lines. Swords are currently at a huge advantage over other weapon types. Therefore, instead of buffing Nightblade, nerfing the other lines; Nightblade line would be untouched.

Electron and Graviton currently have the same base damage values. The only difference excluding damage type is that Electron can inflict shock, a major advantage for bombers to be able to inflict, while Graviton has nothing redeeming in comparison. These two suction bombs are more strategic than offense based, making damage increase for Graviton to balance it less helpful for people who actually use it.

Being able to inflict a status is an advantage, if you were unaware.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 15:31
#4
Addisond's picture
Addisond
oops, crappy self-expression

When I was talking about the shadow-damage thing I was talking about it in the context of the vortexes.

But you are still not addressing my point. Why nerf the ENTIRE SWORD when it is JUST THE EXPLOSIONS FROM THE CHARGE THAT I BARELY USE that cause a status? It's a completely different story than alchemers. I agree with you on the nerf-not-buff thing, DA is much less popular than brandishes atm. Probably around 40-30% less damage on the explosions, IMO.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 16:07
#5
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

Or you could just drop an explosion from each of the status variants. That way you would have 4 at 5*, 3 at 4*, and 2 at 3*.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 17:39
#6
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

Dropping an explosion works too, but I'd prefer a damage reduction for simplicity's sake.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 19:38
#7
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

Edited Acheron entry.
Added Deconstructor line.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 20:26
#8
Serell's picture
Serell
...

I'd rather they drop an explosion than get a damage reduction. I know swords are supposed to be a mix of AoE and single target DPS (though according to Nick, it's a mix of AoE and bullets), but the brandish has way too much AoE. So yeah +1 Though I don't know about pure elemental Deonstructor... I feel anything that works like a Nitronome with special damage is going to outclass it... how about an elemental version of that spikey bomb that deals knockdown instead of knockback? Spikershower, that's what it is called, right? Yeah, put the Spikeshowers mechanics on the Deonstructor and make it pure elemental.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 20:39
#9
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

The thing about removing knockback is it would turn it into an undead killer rather than a construct killer. Removing knockback makes it easy to take down hordes of slow moving undead because they will just sit in the blast radius. With knockback, most of the monsters wont have made it back into the blast radius. Constructs, on the other hand, are much better managed with knockback. A high knockback bomb is essentially a bombers best defense against a charging mechaknight or lumber.

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 21:02
#10
Serell's picture
Serell
hm...

You have a point :v Yeah, knockback really helps against mechas. Unless you're like me who knocks them towards me trapping me in a corner, shocking, hacking and slashing me till I die <.<

/e uses Nitronome for first time ever
"Eat Nitronome, mechanical beotch!"
"AHHHHHH" Get out of my face! nuuuuuuu I'm trapped! Frick! Frick frick frick ahhhh"

Sun, 09/09/2012 - 21:23
#11
Addisond's picture
Addisond
My opinion on brandish charges

They're OP. But we shouldn't be keeping any type of weapon from doing anything. There should be swords that do AoE, guns that help protect the user from attacks and bombs that kill a single target quickly.

lol, I love it when people fire mechas into themselves with nitros for once, instead of me.

/me looks at oat, jen, milky and every other bomber ever

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 05:12
#12
Dagunner's picture
Dagunner
NOOO

don't weaken the status brandishes. JUST BUFF THE ACHERON and other stuff. Besides some times having status's can be bad

and add a fire polaris and ice catalyzer: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/39211

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 15:31
#13
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick that shameless self advertising

I'm not weakening the status brandishes. They still have one more explosion than they originally did. Heck, the originals didn't even guarantee a certain number of explosions per charge, they just had a max. Right now Brandish charges ARE overpowered. They have an extremeley high damage, high utility, and very low risk.

Dagunner you need to stop trying to push your same old suggestions. You've made multiple threads for your "blaze burner" and have necroed them several times. Just cut it out. We don't need more weapons that are just reskins with status slapped on. The Supernova and Neutralizer don't have status because they trade status for versatility.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 15:16
#14
Addisond's picture
Addisond
While we're here....

Any suggestions for catalyzers? They need to change somehow to make them less annoying.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 15:29
#15
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

I think increasing charge pellet speed and letting stuck shots explode after expiring would work. I can't say for sure, as I am not very familiar with the catalyzer line.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 15:31
#16
Luguiru's picture
Luguiru

Usually when Catalyzers show up people want the mines to detonate automatically if the tagged target dies to damage enemies near them.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 18:04
#17
Qwez's picture
Qwez
I think...

@Luguiru & Oatmonster: I personally don't mind that the Catalyzer charge-bombs disappear after enemy death, a lot of enemies have a death animation and you have time to shoot the bomb off of the dying enemy anyways.

I only get pissed off when the stationary/large enemy I am putting bombs on is killed by someone. EDIT: I suppose I do care that my charges are being wasted. Having them explode would be nice, but another way to go about it could be to increase the charge attack damage to offset lost damage. (which may have been done in some previous update when I was not playing SK yet)

I'd like it if the Catalyzer charges chain reacted, and blew up charges that are within range rather than just pushing the charged-enemies away. I find it annoying that after I do my Catalyzer bomb preparations to a group of enemies, I have to make sure all the charges detonate by spamming bullets and walking towards the enemies. They should just go boom when I shoot once ._. (I have heard this being mentioned in some place, probably in-game)

-It'd be cool to have a group of charged-enemies blowing up, and make Catalyzers slightly more useful.

Two things I feel are important, but less so
-I'd really like it if the Volcanic Pepperbox was somehow buffed in the eyes of the ignorant. People don't quite appreciate pushing enemies rather than doing damage... I just don't know what should be done to make it more appealing...
(faster attack speed or charge time?)

-I don't know if this fits in here because it would be quite the major fix, but it would be really great if the spur line was normalized in the charge attack when it has been normalized in the attack combo already. (aka fix the charge attack T.T)

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 19:04
#18
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

Added some very short thoughts on the catalyzer and pulsar lines.

Widening the bullet cone of the Pepperbox would allow for more of a shield like charge, although I'm not sure how people would react to loosing a lot of the single target DPS.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 19:11
#19
Trollingyou's picture
Trollingyou
---

Nerfing the boom on the status brandishes seems a little odd. In the alchemers case, every alchemer has an equal opportunity to deal the same amount of hits. The non-status ones are just stronger. It would be awkward if the nova and umbra could hit more times than the others. I think just reducing the damage of the status brandishes is a better idea.

Adding poison to Graviton Vortex does seem like a good idea. It would be very useful in gremlin floors for sure, or anywhere with a healer giving the Electron Vortex competition.

Why not change the deconstructor line to a bomb that makes 3 pulses, each with small knockback (small enough so the target gets hit by all three pulses if he's standing halfway to the center of the explosion). The damage would be slightly less than Nitronome on a neutral target and it would, of course, be elemental damage. Just an idea of course.

Catalyzers work just fine solo. The problem is when in a party people often kill targets with mines on them and the mines do nothing when the target dies. You hit the mob successfully, so why should you deal no damage? The simple fix would be to have the mines explode if the target dies, so the shots have a much better chance of not going to waste.

Volcanic Pepperbox's main issue is not being able to hit enough with it's shots due to the knockback. If you use on something big, say a lumber, you'll notice how wonderful it works. Reason being is that the shots can actually land cause the lumber is not pushed away on the first few shots. A simple fix would be to reduce the strength of the knockback to allow more hits, while still keeping the mobs at bay.

Just my two cents of course.

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 19:26
#20
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I'd also remove the force of the explosion from graviton, and poison. Small poison.

My other opinions on weapons/general stuff- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53465

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 22:22
#21
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

@Trollingyou, A damage reduction would work as well, although it would just be reduced on the charges. The Deconstructor change seems like a complete mechanical revamp, and a bit beyond the scope of this thread. The way you tweak the Pepperbox really depends on if you're aiming for a shield, or for damage. Both seem very viable and I'll think about it tomorrow.

@Fehzor, I don't want t remove knockback on the Graviton. Removing knockback would make it inconsistent with the Electron, and make it too easy to chain explosions together, never letting things escape. Poison would be applied at the same rate as the Electron applies shock (which is unknown).

Mon, 09/10/2012 - 23:59
#22
Widhaadh
my opinoin

in my opinion i think it would be of a better choice if we could add curse status to the graviton. right now the only weapon in the game that has curse status is the faust line, and vials. so it would be better if we could we add curse instead of poison. there are other poisoning bombs.
And also it is good if we could increase the movement speed while charging the graviton.

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 01:03
#23
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I talk about fixing Catalyzer here.

In a nutshell:
-Increase chaining radius so that any monster hit by the explosion radius is nearly guaranteed to have the charge around it explode as well.
-Let charges stick to an enemy even if it hits a shield around it. (This is particularly a problem with using this shadow-damage weapon against gremlins, meaning I'd never bring it to fight gremlins with. That leaves you with a gun only effective against one type of enemy, and nobody needs a gun specialized for slimes.) Charges must still be detonated when hovering next to a weak spot before it'll deal damage to the enemy.
-Make an elemental variety that inflicts freeze! : D

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 14:51
#24
Addisond's picture
Addisond
mmph...

For brandish charges, what if OOO made them have a longer delay on the swing/explosions and a longer wait time after swinging like a DA?

@ zeddy Sounds good, but if we make another we need to introduce another trollaris (shudder).
Speaking of, how should we nerf that?

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 15:32
#25
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
i would like my sentenza...

i would like my sentenza to do the most damage to its final shot. but balancing this by making the first shots weak.

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 17:11
#26
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

....because?

But speaking of sentenzas, I've noticed some weirdness with the hitbox that allows it to fire through walls because the mini "explosion" is placed somewhat randomly if it is at the edge of it's range or hits certain objects. If OOO were to change this it'd be nice.

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 20:23
#27
Skold-The-Drac's picture
Skold-The-Drac
On EV's Shock rate

I believe a 4/3 rate of shock on the EV wouldn't be so far off for a guess... or maybe a 4/2... I don't remember how long i was told the shock rate lasts.

Anyway, I've already agreed to these changes... or similar ones... on more than one occasion with my friends.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 12:29
#28
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

@Adisond, Do you mean it can shoot through mist barriers? If so, so can the BTB charge.

Added cutter lines.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 14:16
#29
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
@Addisond

I talk about adding a fire-inflicting, shadow-damage Polaris here. In a nutshell:

-REVERSE knockback, making it crowd-contolling in a way less hazardous to teammatess and slightly more focused on damage.
-That's... that's it really.

Oatmonster's existing suggestion of cutting the Pulsar clip size to 2 seems perfectly legit. As does Luguiru's suggestion elsewhere about slightly nerfing the status rate on them.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 16:11
#30
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

lol I've suggested two-clips size too, I was wondering if there were any other proposed fixes. I kinda like the fire/shadow polaris thing, but I'm kinda wondering if such a small explosion's minor pull will mean much. Reducing the shock RATE is fine, but it pretty much has to be moderate or strong strength, seeing as there need to be available counters to bombers, and shock is nearly the only thing that stops them from running onto a point and dropping a haze bomb.

@oat
well, it just plain shoots through barriers occasionally. But it's also possible to shoot someone standing just on the other side of the barrier through means of the somewhat randomly placed "explosion" (it's a little circle that expands outward from being a dot to the size of a biohazard shot, then disappearing. When hitting most objects, it is placed exactly where the bullet makes contact, but in the case of force fields, other objects and at the edge of it's range it is placed somewhat randomly in close proximity to the impact). It also applies to the AP.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 16:35
#31
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Not removing knockback would leave it underpowered compared to the electron vortex. Electron vortex has shock, which is stronger than poison, and cancels the knockback, making the bomb functional and amazing. While I'm here-

Brandish Lines
-If anything, could use with more charge time, other than that are somewhat balanced compared to other elemental/shadow weapons. Acheron could use a status effect as well.

Deconstructor Line
-No. I don't want deconstructor as a blast bomb, I want it's style of attack changed radically into something cool and functional. Kind of like the shard bombs, but something that does enough to actually work.

Catalyzer Lines
-I've written this before, but it got owned by all the "Pets" threads etc... Cata lines could really use with a buff in one of two ways, being the accurate+stylish way, and the big sprosions way. The accurate stylish way includes cata bullets traveling+rotating faster, as well as starting their rotation relative to where the shot lands. The big sprosions buff includes less damage, faster charge time, and bullets that are detonated by charge detonations on other monsters. The accurate way needs more damage.

Pulsar Lines
-Clip size down to 2 bullets? First of all, that wouldn't be such a huge buff, the clip size already only hits with 2ish bullets unless its on a turret. Basically, you'd be casting the polaris into the sea of unusable crap weapons by removing its only huge niche use of killing turrets. Yes, it is usable outside of turrets, no it isn't optimal.

Cutter Lines
I wouldn't say no knockback, but perhaps less knockback, especially on the first few hits if anything.

Tue, 09/18/2012 - 21:42
#32
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
winmillion

i know this has been discused many many many times but ill just type somethng i had in mind. change the charge attack disc so that after the player launches the disc, it comes back to the players location. this would kinda cover the whole boomerang weapon creation thread. the charge disc would be spinning during launch and return. the spinning attack function would look very similar to a way a chain saw works taking multiple damage as it goes forth and back through the enemy. when an enemy has a shield, the disc would not disapear when launched towards the shield but instead spin in place where it was stopped by the shield, then return to the player after 1 second. the normal attack disc would also have spinning mechanic where it would spin in place after launch and last less then 1 second. the only difference with the charge attacks that these disc have is that it would not comeback to the player. the last swing of the winmillion would launch a bigger disc like it already does now and it would spin like the other disc but have a bigger radius.

some minor change in the movement animations would also help the player from swing pass a stationary target like turrets. just decrease a little how far the player moves from each swing. any attack changes would not be neccesary because multiple damage would be caused by the spining disc for each attack.

one minor change i would like to make is that to have the animation of the lights that come from each swing to do some minor damage. this would let the previous forms of the winmillion to not be so underpowered and would also increase the winmillion attack width very close to that of a swing of a troika or a sealed sword. the damage that that would come out of the lights would be minor like 8, 13, 19. the main damage would be the swing itself, and the damage taken from the lights would have no pushback.

well thast all i have to say. hope my version works out. :)

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