It's the easiest way to add an unqiue feel.
Maybe brandishes should have less explosions, or guns should shoot farther to compensate. But it's fun and variety vs realism.
Sun shards excuse was a lie. Nick couldnt come up with a better way to say OOO hates bombers xD.
I don't think reducing sword variety is a good idea- balancing stuff out accordingly instead is. I'm all for gunswords, AoE swords, bomb guns and gun bombs, guns and bombs that do more damage at close range, etc. (Pulsar, piercing projectile swords, Winmillion, old shards)
I actually WANT overlaps of weapon styles; that gives more variation and leads to more options for team play. Bombs shouldn't have to be restricted to circular AoE. Guns shouldn't just be defensive and shoot only bullets. Swords shouldn't be entirely close-range or AoE in cones or lines... And should NOT be the ONLY jack-of-all-trades, and with so little effort involved... but that's a whole different area of discussion.
As long as each weapon is carefully balanced, variety is great. I'm not saying a bomb-sword should have the same area potential as a 'true' bomb and still have short-range capabilities, or that brandishes and DAs should stay overpowered.
I agree with both OP and Draycos. I do want an overlap in weapon styles, as to create more of a mixture in styles, but I highly disapprove of the Devs quoting "RSS was too gun-like" as a reason to remove it, when half the weapons in the game have mixed styles, and RSS was the single bomb that had a mixed style.
Supposedly there are deviations in weapon archetypes because they wanted to have some oddballs to counter their weakness. Swords are supposedly awful against ranged weapons, so they made some ranged attacks for a couple swords and thought it would be fine. The same could be said for the old shard bombs but those were more like shrapnels (imagine an Alchemer charge where instead of a few bouncing bullets come out after the initial projectile hits something it fires >30 very small projectiles in random directions) which was a very creative bomb mechanic.
Here is my take on rebalancing DAvenger. For anyone who cares.
your rebalancing sounded okay, except i would like som minor push back. feels weird for a sword charge to not have push back.
I'm not against ranged sword-charges per se, it just seems incredibly irritating to me that about 50% of all swords have some way of damaging you at distance. I would be perfectly fine if only a few specialized swords would overlap - in fact, I love that guns are not just guns and bombs not just bombs, and that they play vastly differently because of that - but the whole point is, virtually every sword that is of any use has some sort of long-range charge attack(save for flourish, which is most of the time replaced by its cousin snarble barb, which again shoots bullets). Then there's the heavy sword-lines noone uses 'cause they stink against sealed swords and its DLC-cousin, which essentially does the same charge attack twice, but with flash-step between each application, essentially making YOU the bullet.
I really don't want to steal away the variety, because that would be pretty idiotic. I don't want to limit each weapon to their respective types either, because their differences between attack and charges IS what makes them unique and diferent to use, after all.
However, my main complaint really is that while every other weapon type has specialized weapons kinda overlapping with others, it's almost a standard at swords that they are gun substitutes, too. There are 2 gun-lines focusing on AOE(the Bark Module weapons, of course), and one pretty explicitely purposed for close combat. All of them were guns, but fitted different roles, namely crowd control and melee. However, both also were special at how they did it: You couldn't swing your autogun all around or have some mobility, it's stationary. And both polaris and catalyzer don't have the range of a normal bomb, but that's okay, given you can simply shoot them at the enemy without fuse. The crystal bombs were fun, as they were guns, but kinda weren't. They shot in all directions, but had a delay, making them vastly different to actual guns.
However, swords play just as long-range as guns do. They look different, sure, but in effect, you could as well use a gun instead of the charge attack and have the exact same effect. In fact, give Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza the sealed sword-charge attacks: The charge-attack feels PERFECTLY in place. In fact, replace the current charge-attacks of the antiguas with the sealed ones, if we're at it. Much better than the faux-autogun charge attack with bird at the end. Turn the sword into a bird!
My other complaint is that swords aren't specialized as ranged-damagers, swords are part-gun to begin with! As I said, over 50%. I would be okay if sealed swords gain some upgraded charge of the first in the line, and brandishes some sweet flashy close-range weapons, and have the snarble barb and the winmillion(it just makes sense to include the spur-line, it brags with the ability and it would give it a reason to be used) be the specialized gun-swords... and then go full gun-sword with it, not just some random sword that happens to shoot bullets on its charge, but maybe a sword that propels you forward on each and every attack or maybe has a flashy long-range combo finish. THAT's how a gunsword should be: Not fully functional sword and fully functional gun in one thing, but rather a mixed mutant.
And i don't care about this whole "Bu-But players, swords are supposed to be all alrounder and stuff..." Why does it even be like that to begin with in games? Why are other weapons so damn inferior to swords? Why is the sword always the jack-of-all-stats? Why does the hero carry a sword? It's simply discriminating towards other weapon users. A game with 3 weapon classes shouldn't have some sort of favourite. It needs to be neutral about it.
This is just my viewpoint on that thing. I don't want to get rid of sword-bullets altogether, I actually just want to limit the amount of swords who can do that, because if you wanna have long-range, use a gun, or a sword that's specially made to satisfy your needs. I want variety, yes, and I want weird cross-weapons, yes, but if a whole weapon class just happens to steal the spotlight of another one by copying its defining abilities just because it can is too ridiculous for me.
Thus, I propose treating swords like everything else and instead of giving everything long range, have 1 or 2 weapon lines specially made to be a hybrid. Like the crystal bomb, that was a gun-bomb hybrid and you could tell by its whole arsenal(okay, only a charge attack, but you get what I mean). Or polaris and catalyzer, which were 2 unique bomb-guns where you could exactly tell they are hybrids. Or the autogun, which is pretty explicitely short-range. Avenger and co.? Attack like a heavy sword, charge attack of a gun. This is no real hybrid, it's just 2 weapons squeezed in one to me.
then what are your thought of what a real hybrid capabilities should be. put in some ideas that we might be able to expand..
I completely disagree, weapons shouldn't be restricted to certain limited capabilities.
Well If they remove all the "ranged" charges on all the swords, people wouldn't really use many swords due to the need of range, the people who only use swords, need to have SOME sort of defence against certain enemies. like Kats and Devilites, No range at all means we all die if everyone doesnt have a gun. not Too many should have a range charge, but generally they are weaker than other swords and have really long charges. Plus its only really good to have one equipted. thats why some swords have range.
The brandish line and sealed line are the only Ranged 5 star swords. and lack Asi or damage. There shouldn't be MORE. but the ones we have now are fine. the charges from the swords dont do as much damage with the projectiles/explosions as you think.
I completely disagree, weapons shouldn't be restricted to certain limited capabilities.
the people who only use swords, need to have SOME sort of defence against certain enemies. like Kats and Devilites
I smell sun shard debate bait.
The people that are against it use a wolver-armor-avatars. Coincidence? I think not!
Anyway, first of all, I'm not talking about removing ranged sword-attacks altogether, but rather reserve the ranged sword-charges and attacks for actual specialized weapons. Because you know, they are specialized. Why have standard-swords with ranged attacks? You can't throw bombs as projectiles as last resort, either. Same situation to me.
Second, why does swords have to work against every enemy? Heck, half of the more annoying clockwork enemys have some sort of defense mechanism as guns. We're at discrimating other weapon types again: It's okay that some monsters are just too annoying to take down with a gun, but if a sword doesn't have the ultimate advantage, there's much crying? Every tried to gun these damn devilites? Or gremlins? Wolvers are particulary annoying. So yeah, guns do not work well against these enemys, unless you pull the good ol' reliable antigua out. However, as soon as swords don't work against devilites anymore, there is much outcrying.
And swordies die on the spot without ranged attack? Well, I have news for ye: There are bombers and gunners that never ever use a sword. They get along just fine. So in other words, as soon as the swords only real advantage actually starts kicking in, they become the suckiest weapons in the game? Even if swordies need ranged attacks, you could still, as I already said, use the specilist-swords. Swords aren't even supposed to work on long-range in the first place. As i said, the range is their main disadvantage, being able to take on groups of enemys, but only at close range.
And I simply don't like how swordies are supposed to be the all-doing alrounder that even compensate their main disadvantage with charge-attacks. You want ranged attacks? Use a gun or a hybrid-sword. You want maximum damage output? Use your damn sword. Want max AOE? Use the hybrid or a bomb! A weapon isn't supposed to have other weapon types' abilities, it's just silly. Why don't you give the bombs normal attack-moves without charging, then? Or guns with max damage output? Oh, because it's not balanced? IMHO, neither are ranged sword-attacks everywhere. "But they are weaker, or at least not as damaging as you depict them". Alright, but think about it: Their pitiful range is what makes swords swords. Does that make them sucky? No, it just gives them back the disadvantage they are supposed to have. "Most swords have a short range but ridiculous damage, most guns are weaker with great range, and bombs are slow to use and require timing, but devastating to groups and for status-infliction." That's how it should go, not: "Most swords bypass their short range with projectiles and have great damage nonetheless, most guns are weaker with great range, and bombs are slow to use and require timing, but devastating to groups and for status-infliction."
Not to hate on the weapon types or the weapons themself, but I just think it's an utterly unfair advantage in comparison to other weapon types. Not only that, but I think if we'd do something against this, the other weapons wouldn't be so overlooked in comparison to the trusty swords. people would actually start using guns to attack from afar, for example.
Can't post much ATM, on my phone. I believe that the weapon lines as a whole should have 'weaknesses' that make them inferior in certain situations. At the same time, there should be certain weapons of the line that don't have such weaknesses, at the cost of getting the weaknesses of the weapon family they blend with, or just being trickier to use effectively. (can't just spam old RSS for max damage, Winmillion 5* may not be as powerful as a pure sword or gun if used exclusively as either too much, Pulsar shots need to be aimed from a distance and correctly so as not to be a detriment to the team, and so on)
Luigi's proposed DA changes are good. As for Brandishes, perhaps a cooldown that's more of a punishment than a cooldown- use too many charges in a given time and you start applying the status to yourself. (in the case of Acheron, curse, or minor Shadow damage?)
Thorn Blade charges are mainly a way to distance enemies- the projectiles deal pathetic damage past a certain distance so only a few hit, and you deal more damage using normal attacks. At close range, most spikes will hit, pushing enemies a fairly large distance.
Perfect. You seem to understand what I want to say here. Swords are claimed to have the global disadvantage of short range, which just doesn't kick in if half of the charge attacks easily challenge guns.
The thing about hybrids is that they are unique and tricky to use: A gunsword-hybrid would play as a sword with gun thrown in. Pulsars also only work efficiently as bombs when on distance, after all. Current swords don't have this. They strike hard, and shoot far. Pew pew. Just like that. Slash slash. Just like that. If a weapon is a hybrid, then the whole design and attack-style should tell, not being seperated in charge-attack and normal attack that do two different things. Hybrids would have the ability to bypass the weapon class disadvantages by the cost of having unique disadvantages and a rather unique playstyle.
And that's my point. Finally give the swords the disadvantage they are supposed to have, and give us real hybrids, which are built around the concept of gunswords, and not just having some bullet rain as special attack.
I understand the sentiment, but my argument isn't related to my own personal play. I don't use charge attacks much. Instead, I am against any attempt to strictly categorize weapons. The slips between categories make gameplay more varied, and make weapons that would otherwise not exist possible. You remember the RSS? That's what you're doing. Just in a less dramatic fashion.
The argument doesn't seem to be to completely categorize swords, just to thin the amount of good-for-everything swords, or to balance them out. In terms of black and white, I think that the OP is in this grey area.
I don't want to simply stop the transitions of the different classes, that would be just stupid. It's just bugs me that about 50% of all swords, worse, the often used 50% of all swords have some sort of ranged charge attack. Other weapon classes have hybrid-weapons that offer the transition between multiple weapon types, but swords just kinda have it in their default arsenal. I mean what the hell? Swords are swords are swords are melee fighter weapons. You should use a hybrid-weapon, a specialized sword, if you want to have high melee damage and ranged damage at once. Right now every mentionable sword safe for flourish(which has snarble barb, again fitting the whole ranged-thing) and these normal-damage swords noone seems to ever use have a ranged charge-attack, thereby bypassing the swords only real jarring disadvantage. To me, it's like making bombs layable without charging, or guns with a charge attack that turns it into a melee weapon with massive knockback and damage. It's just ridiculous.
So yeah, I want the swords to be more sword than alldoing alrounder and instead having hybrids offering the transition(which would also make winmillions far more usable, after a huge buff and a last crafting segment added).
I don't want to remove variety alotgether, I just want to draw the line of swords to be sharper so that they are actually swords, and not just semi-hybrids that have two weapon-functionalitys into one, without special playstyle or drawback or whatever.
I hope I made the point clear and didn't misphrased it again.
Only two used lines of swords have truly long ranged charge attacks (brandishes and sealeds). When there are only three really popular swords it's not a big enough sample. Looking at partially used swords we see:
FoV does not have range
DVS does not have range
WRH does not have as much range as a gun but has a lot.
2/6
And then looking at ALL swords there are:
Spur has range
Calibur does not
Troika has the same range as WRH.
3/9
What if we look at guns overlapping with bombs?
Used:
Polaris has delayed effect and some AoE.
Antiguas don't
Alchemers don't
1/3
Partially used:
Valiance doesn't
Autoguns don't
Callahan doesn't
1/6
All:
Biohazard has a delayed effect and AoE.
2/7
The numerical disparity is present but isn't really significant enough to bother with changing a bunch of mechanics. OOO should just make any new swords that come out not have range, instead varying them in other ways or making them more generic.
Troika - Seems legit. Not too long-range oriented. The warmup is fast, and has range, but it still feels like an ordinary melee attack.
The rocket hammer - Dat damn flashstep... I think it does make the weapon almost a projectile weapon, because the way it propels you forward basically makes you a living cannon ball. Anyway, I'd say it's on the very last edge, and it even reflects on the normal attack-style, too: It sure would make a great hybrid-weapon, with the wielder being fast as a bullet, and hits with a slow troika-like weapon. I'll count it as hybrid here, but as a good one: If one has to stay, then this one fo' sure. However, it's DLC, so can we really count that one?
Flourish - You forgot that one here. Doesn't have a charge attack on distance. However...
Snarble Barb(Boss token) - ... his cousin clearly does, and endgamers prefer this one over floursih, especially because it blends with the Snarby-armor everyone likes to use because it looks awesome. However, it's also used over the flourish for the charge, too, which involves some spikes being thrown at the enemy.
Avengers - Next!
Fausts - Sucky at it(not the projectile itself, it's alright, I'm talking about the charge in the sense of the charge itself), but does the job if it has to be.
Brandishes - Does something even need to be said?
Fang of Vog - This one is a glorious exception, especially because it has its own unique style of being used. Namely, suicide-bombing. Nope, this here is no ranged attack and is an overall great weapon IMHO. It proves that short-range charge attacks can be unique, too.
Spur - Brags with it, sucks at bit. What a joke... and a rhyme, at that. Still, fires projectiles. Actually, it does seem to pretty explicitely designed as a hybrid.
Cutters - Nope.
Calibur - Normal damage brandish with short-range charge attack. Almost never gets used over the elemental swords.
If I do the math, and combine flourish and snarb barb because they are the same thing with different charge attacks respectively, we have 5.5/10(I regard rocket hammer as a very, VERY weird mix of propelling yourself forward and having slow attack speed, so I regard it as shooting yourself forward. Just take the 0.5 out if you have another opinion). Did I miss one? No, I think not. Even if we take the 0.5 of the rocket hammer out, we'd have 5/10, which equals, you guessed it, 50%. Even if we seperate the snarble barb and flourish(which is total nonsense, as they are really just variations from each other), it's still about 45,5%, still pretty damn close to 50%. Take the hammer out as DLC, and we get back at 50%. Too complicated? We just keep it at 45%, to compromise with you, okay?
Out of 11 swords, 5 differently working swords(I won't count the brandishes seperately, that would be unfair) with ranged charge-attack... you can't deny that's pretty frikkin' damn much. 3 of them are actively used, dunno about flourish/barb, but I think it's used quite often.
IMHO, we need to reduce it to at the very, very least 3, and even that would be a bit of an overkill(the numbers themself would be quite alright, but that would still mean either brandishes or a sealed sword would keep its unreasonable long-range attack). Better would be 2, with Spur and some other sword being fleshed out to fulfill the role to fight in ranged combat more. Or turning one of them into a compromise, essentially having 2.5(showing weapon-numbers as fractions. Problem?).
of course, I might have overseen something, so don't be shy and correct me if my calculations have some sort of flaw(like forgetting a few weapons)
I didn't forget the BTB charge. The push-back on the player plus the absolutely tiny range (~3 squares including push-back) of the barbs make it pretty negligible. In fact, the flourish charge gets you more range because it moves you forward, according to the logic in the WRH.
The hammer is shooting yourself - this is somewhat similar to a gun, but the range of the movement is lesser, and personal movement is, I feel, unique enough to not count. We can count the WRH regardless of it's DLC-yness. Both it and the troika have some pretty long-range charges, though I don't feel that this is really a long enough reach to count.
I notice that you're putting the GF and DA in there at the same time. I disagree on that, though I was probably wrong to count them as only one weapon due to their rather significant disparity. Seeing as people avoid the GF charge, though, and they are still very similar, I'd say in hindsight that I was right to have them count as one, but for the wrong reasons.
Oh, and I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh about anything. It's unintentional.
I edited this 10/26 to put up an accurate number on the BTB charge's range.
I say that Gran Faust and Divine Avenger are too different to count as the same weapon, even though they share the same alchemy origin. They both are heavy swords, yes, but the whole debuff thing of the faust alone makes you play it so extremely differently I'd count them as seperate swords with the same origin. Then there are some other slight differences, like for example I heard that the Faust is a bit slower than the avenger, but I'm really nitpicking on these. The whole self-curse thing and the overall rather crappy charge attack makes it play differently than the avenger, because the avenger essentially encourages you to use the flying blades while the faust punishes you for doing so. Two swords, essentially similar, with the preference of normal/charge making out the difference.
However, if we break it down, the faust has this charge attack and CAN use the bullets. Yes, the negative effects and the fact it's only one sword make it blow rocks, but it's still something.
Alright, kinda overestimated the BTB's range. Thought of it being longer. However, one of my defining traits for guns is that they keep the enemy at bay, thereby explaining why I just can't count the flourish. And while the BTB-charge HAS the range of keeping enemys at bay a bit, it's just too small to actually count. My mistake then. Sorry 'bout that one.
The difference between troika and the hammer is the flashstep. While the troika lunges out and then charges at the enemy quite a bit, it still sort of feels like a single heavy attack. The rocket hammer and ultra-fast approaching feels more like some sort of pursue attack, almost as if you are shooting at an enemy your troika just kicked away. This is what makes it feel gun-like to me. However, as I already said, it's your choice to count it or not. I'd certainly count it as a half-example, because it's still way too unique to count as gun-substitute.
It's okay, you are just kinda pointing out what flaws my calculations could have. As long as you don't sound rough, I'm fine with it, as I actually requested you to point out my logic flaws.
So, I pretty certainly count Faust as seperate entry than the avenger and because it can charge a projectile, it stays as projectile-sword(doesn't matter how sucky it is, as long as you can damage someone at distance, it counts for me). Thus, we still have 40% if we put BTB and flourish together, which is still pretty reasonable, because they are just the same weapon with different charges(which seems stupid to me, but oh well. I don't make the game). Of 10 swords 4 of them with ranged charge, it still seems ridiculous to me. I'd still just change the sealed swords into something with less range in a straight line(I wouldn't mind turning them into bomb-like chargers however. With the great attack-range, and the fact that the actual sealed sword they all originate from made the first step with that weird seal on the ground, it would fit quite a bit imho. Of course, people could still say that they are overpowered then).
ho about having no more expanions into hthe brandish and sealed sword lines. wouldnt that solve the percentage of having to many long range sword. just keep it the way it is, and actually make new swrds with actual close quater combat charge ablities like the cuter or flourish. that would really decrease how much of a percentage in long range swords that we have.
*side note, more guns need a buff in range, cause they have the same range or even less then those sords who have long range attacks.
A crude range buff isn't as good as it sounds on paper. We'd also need a way to zoom out the camera, or allow different types of views, which has some issues with textures- most level models have no backside since you're never supposed to see it. A way to cut down on load times, presumably.
Camera is always cenetered around the player. What if we add a new "focus" key, that moves the camera a little to whatever way our knigth is facing, but obviously creating a blindspot behind us.
Quick reference image:
http://imgur.com/t98HA
Well, I have no idea how it's supposed to work just right. Could work by being toggleable via button and then moving the cursor(the farther the cursor away from you is, the more the cam goes away from you. It's a bit like centering the camera around a point somewhere between knight and mouse. Well, I don't know).
The whole idea about keeping the current charges and instead adding more swords would turn out slightly problematic, given there already do seem to be more swords than other weapons. We have 10 differently working swords(as I said, I don't consider the BTB a unique weapon in its own right), 7 guns and, I'm no bomber, so I'm just guessing at that number, 6 bombs if I put all blast bombs together and summarize the vortexes as one weapon(it's really like the flourish/BTB-relation, with one being a bit harder to get, but otherwise only differs in damage type). I think we should avoid adding too many swords now, and instead focus on the other weapon classes, bombers particulary(they still seem pretty pissed about having their only real hybrid removed, and for good reason, too: It's stunning how crippling overspecialized bombers are because of that). Guns could get some support here and there too, but it's just important that the focus drifts away from swords a bit. Adding more swords would just seem counterproductive to me, and while the relative number(in percent) of sword-projectile-charges would lower, the absolute number(in actual number of swords) would stay the same. In other words: We want swords to be less of a total jack-of-all trades, at least in comparison to other weapon classes. Adding even more swords doesn't help solving the problem.
The thing is, the GF actually hurts the player when you use it's charge. I don't think that it really fulfills the purpose of a gun if it hurts you. Though it's still long-range, it's not overlapping with a niche of another weapon. The flash-step on the charge of the hammer does have some pretty extensive range, I agree. I don't feel that the second hit of the combo really fits as a gun attack, though, for the same reason as the GF: it doesn't fit the safety-with-range component of using guns. I guess we can count it as a gun-sword for the flash-step, though.
... For me it remains as some sort of gun-substitute, even though the charge in and for itself blows so much it's barely worth using. It shoots bullets on the charge. Yes, you shouldn't use it, but it STILL has that ranged attack. If you need to rely on a ranged attack, you can use the Fasut if you can deal with the consequences(which are, as far as I know, not instant damage, but rather a self-curse, which can be equally as bad at times, but at other times, you can wait for the curse to end and you basically got that shot without real penalty). If a sword has some sort of way to bypass it's otherwise short range with an attack that hits pretty fast even on distance(dunno how to phrase it better), it still kinda has some sort of gun-like feel to it. And the Gran faust, penalty or not, has this option.
And even if the charge attack is not worth using, why have it be a ranged one either way? I mean, why not if we change the avenger's charge, change the Fausts too to make them mirror each other a bit again. Not that it would matter. Noone would be using the charge either way. If someone would be using it, it would just prove my point that Faust can be used as gun-substitute, albeit an immensly and idioticly impractical one.
I think I finally got what my definition of gun really is: Doing damage while bridging quite a distance in a small amount of time... yeah, I think that fits perfectly for my definition. The Faust has it(and again, i can't say it often enough, it's impractical, I get it. It's still there), and the rocket hammer has it in a less conventional manner: You can do damage quite a distance away from you, but not because of a bullet, but because you almost teleport(that sure is some pretty high dash-tempo) right into your enemys face. As i said, you are free to call it gun-like or not, but I would call it a semi-example, fitting the long-range role without use of bullets.
So yeah, hammer is debatable and I'd be perfectly fine with calling it no-ranged, but faust stays on my list.
Self-curse varies in potency based on the situation, but I am far more scared of the GF's effect than the FoV's one (largely because I only carry three weapons). Yes, this is idiotically impractical weapon for use as a gun - so in my eyes, it's not really a gun, or even quite gun-like as these other examples are. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel that the only thing that should have to be present in all guns is range, but the overall theme for guns is that they allow you to attack from range while staying safe. And I feel that self-curse violates this.
I stay with my opinion to the Faust-line. I was listing every gun that can bypass range with damage, and the Faust just has it. There's just no other excuse. it can, in theory, bypass a swords pitiful range with a projectile and thus damage enemys over long gaps and distances. It's undesirable to use, yeah, I get it. However, it's STILL a ranged charge-attack, and can be, depending on the scenario, be used for long-ranged attacks if you lack a gun. You can bridge long distances with the charge attack. And that's the thing what seems important to me.
You can't deny that for all its impracticability, it still shoots the sword out of the sword(insert some random "Yo dawg"-meme here). It still can shoot. You can, in desperate moments, accept the drawback and snipe that enemy from the distance. It's no full gun substitute in any way, yet it can still bridge the distance.
And even if you still say the Faust does not count as ranged, what difference it can make if it gets a change anyway? If it's not being used, noone should care for the Faust-charge to change. In fact, we could change it into a charge that may actually even be useful, making the curse-drawback reasonable.
Even though it's rarely used, for good reason, you can still use it in VERY specific situations. Therefore, I'll just count it as ranged charge-attack, because that's what it is. No gun-substitute, and still a ranged attack.
Hope it doesn't come over unfriendly to you.
1. I'm a Wolver clone. Get over it.
2. I think that there should be an overlap in some (but not all) weapon types, because:
- a. This makes some weapons interesting (The Valiance having sword-range attacks as well as shooting could be the ultimate troll weapon, for example)
- b. This covers some weaknesses in weapons (pure bombers used the RSS for range, as in, switches and turrets)
- c. IRL, not all guns shoot bullets (ahem. Rocket launchers?), not all bombs are short-range (any shrapnel/fragments). Nothing 'bout swords because swords are outdated. Ergo, there should not be 'stereotypes' which EVERYTHING conforms to.
3. Right now, swordies who need good range are forced to use a) brandish charge-spam, which is kinda unviable for switches or b) a gun. Pure bombers can only do b, so the old RSS was awesome.
4. Both non-bomb categories have crossovers (Winmillion/Brandish lines/BTB line, Pulsar/Catalyzer lines), so why not bombs?
TL;DR:
1. Nick hates bombers.
2. Bring back the RSS already!
OOO hates bombing
OOO thinks guns and swords should dominate whilst bombs only play support
OOO enjoys watching bombers squirm.
Why do I say these things?
All elemental defense for bombers, No shadow or piercing defense if you want to have bomb CTR
Damage bombs put out sub-par damage/performance to nearly everything else made available except perhaps catalyzer lines, callahan/iron slug, leviathan blade.
Our power on a whole is based on swordies/polaris ftw'ers allowing us to abuse AOE.
Shardnerf (nuff said)
Heavy deconstructor?
Irontech?
Now, so far the arguments in their favor....
Minor bomb buffs, ala 20% damage increase, BAB buff in radius (However guns also received additions)
Stunfix (but benefits all stun users, so a lesser degree here)
Shivermist is by and large the best noob weapon evar.
Now, let's look at the community as a whole. If I took a slice through the community on a whole, wanted to serve it up to someone and had to make a percentage of the playerbase based on that slice. How many people using bombs on a regular basis (read owning more than just shivermist) do you think there would be? I'm talking so much as touching a bomb outside of FSC.
On a quick perusal through all my past experience, and rather funnily into the blast network population v. LD population (yes the non-existant population for the completely run down game). I'd put the best estimate at around 15% at best, for people who even bother to touch a bomb (and readily admit such).
Gather all the bombers/bomber hybrids into haven 1 at the most trafficked hour, you might have Haven 1 filled
Gather all the gunners/gun hybrids into haven 1, at the most trafficked hour, I'd advise you make room up to haven 4
All the swordies/sword hybrids, good luck, you'll likely be stopping around haven 6 or 7 and dealing with zone chat being spammed with various jokes regarding genitalia, begging, and various other behaviors (some of you guys just enjoy the concept of banhood I tell ya)
This is the problem.
How many care to readily wield the new OOO lovechild between a scatter bomb/fireworks/bird excrement?
Don't raise your hand lugnut :P
And while it is admittable that the DBB is an amazing bomb for clearing both fiends and beasts, you guys always have an autogun or toothpick holding your back anyway, don't tell me that you've never thought a blitz/BTB/flourish would outperform DBB close to any day when there's more than one person.
We all have that one bomber friend. I know. He/she turns the whole field into no-man's-land a short time, revs you and then armeggedon comes out with his friggin sword/gun of power and smites everything that stands.
But admittedly, until 5*, bombing has little if any reward for ya.
i agree! to fit the rules of this game swords should not have long range attacks at all. but if you have ever read comics or played other online games, techniques associated with swords usually grow to destroy the limit of only short range attacks by creating a way for the warior users of those swords to use the air as a form of attack like a sonic boom or by creating a a new rule such as chi where the warrior can utilize these powers to launch long range attacks.
if spiral knights tried to follow these examples, then i think that is the reason why swords have long range charge attacks that is even longer then the range of the mega magnus normal two clip bullets. that also makes me really irritated that the magnus bullets who are suppose to be so powerful that it woul blow someone head clean of is limited to such a short range while a sword weapon like glacius can go farther then the bullet. anyway back to my point, i think the devs put the ability for some swords like the brandish line have long range attacks when they reach 4 star to 5 star just for the reason of conquering the limitation of only short range atacks.
rather then give swords long range attacks, i would rather give them seperate abilitys that can be balance later on after relating each of the swords abilities. for example i would give nightblade the ablity to form shadow spikes that come of the monsters that it cuts. so if it cut one monster, a shadow spike would come out 3 seconds later after the cut extending 3 to 4 blocks long from where the monster was cut. any monster that touches this shadow spike receives shadow damage. or even have a sword that gives the user, improve movement speed like the cutter series. improve movement speed and give it a long rang attack by attaching a long diamond case string that the user coud use to peform long range slashes. i think these abilities would prove they are more sword like then the long range energy burst that comes out from their slashes.
another point that really bugs me is the amage output from these long range swords compared to a troika like weapon. the troika damage output is from my point of view considerably low compared to the compiled damage that is inflected when launching these long range energy burst into a crowd of monsters. i think if the troika where to be given a more emphasized damage output and a wider radius from the point of impact cause by the troika charge attack, it would be more balanced.
well these are just my thoughts.