Spiral Knights - Why is damage so important in Lockdown?

Why is damage so important in Lockdown?

150 replies [Last post]

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 09:31

#51

Darkbrady

Dirt, either you're being

Dirt, either you're being stubborn and pedantic or trying to instigate an argument with someone who made a thread specifically about people starting arguments with them.

It's a fairly legitimate question even with this wording; why is damage so important in LD that people will sacrifice caps and wins for it? A team with half bombers can clean up the map w/o needing to drop a single point of damage, so why do strikers feel the undying need to get dmg dmg dmg instead of playing the game?

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 09:42

#52

Skyguarder

Damage isn't important

I don't give a [Firetruck] about damage. The point is to get the most capture points, not fight in the war for points. If people are going for huge damage, but they get killed and no cap points, then it's pretty much pathetic for them and they blame the team for not capturing. It's either they capture with suckish damage or they do full damage but loose.

It's stupid that they don't want to have fun in lockdown. They are competitive and want to win with no fun. Most of those noobs are probably kids that whine about "spam, AA, hammer, polaris, gun spamming, recon bomber, etc". Lots of them are probably mentioned.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 09:48

#53

Spold

@Benightz

Exactly. I bet if there could be two versus two Lockdown match while one team is capturing and defending and the other team is trying to just kill everyone randomly then the capturing team would win.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:03

#54

Burntsouls

3 reasons

Ego
Attention getting
Indulgence of killing

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:13

#55

Spold

@Burntsouls

Please tell me that was sarcasm because those are not legit reasons.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:21

#56

Darkbrady

Honestly, Inci, I think

Honestly, Inci, I think they're the three prime reasons why people think damage is so important~

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:35

#57

Tenkii

meh

When I started playing lockdown, I thought the same way.
"Ugh, you damage kiddies are dumb, it's all about capturing."

So I'd do the smart thing as a recon and either capture [aka stand] with teammates or capture closer to the enemy base (face it, if your team is outmatched, it's better to cap far away and possibly keep the other team occupied away from say, spawn camping the rest of your team. If people showed up, I'd either troll them with deathmark and/or run away.

Because it's all about the capture stat, right?

-----

Fast forward a bit and now I've learned to hold my own.

That original approach was completely naive. Sure, I'd have the highest capping stat on my team, but the points I'd capture would get lost almost immediately. Dealing damage, or more specifically, defending, is also important. If you're capping a lot but aren't contributing to defense, you're fodder. Fodder is good for capping a single point faster and feeding damage to the other team. I was fodder. Now I still capture points in the movement I used to, but I don't usually have as many in the stat because I focus more on actually holding/defending those points instead of just running away as soon as someone shows up. If you're getting tons of captures, as I used to, that likely means that your team is losing control of points often. That's not good :l

I realized that a healthy team (of say, 4), usually has a 'bully' (the damage-kids that you can't understand) keeping the other team busy, at least 1-2 people capping together, and a third person patrolling (defending/capping) the other points. Without the bullies going ahead and weakening/killing the other team, the capture kids are more likely to get ambushed together. Nothing better than having your whole team die at once, mirite?

As for me, I look at the damage stat to try to identify the 'bullies' that I should defend my team from. But playing almost solely as recon, I also realize that class plays into it a bit too - the highest damaging ones are the ones that run into enemies the most. Recon can't chase, so its damage will look dim in the presence of bully strikers. In that case, it's really a matter of how well your team does, because it doesn't matter if YOU'RE the one dealing the damage, but as long as the other team's ability is incapacitated by someone on your team and yours is kept alive, it's still good for yours.

-----------

That's the playing-to-win side of it.

Now, if you're playing for fun, do whatever you want, right? If I liked the striker class, I'd play bully all the time.
cue: I'm just trying to play for fun, but some stuck up kids in lockdown keeps telling me I'm a noob because I'm not capping. :(((

It's the same deal in either direction. I've seen the discussion IN-GAME, and I've seen the bully-types actually straight up say, "standing on the points is boooring". They want to have fun too.

Sometimes, I'll make myself sound spiteful in-game (it's partly inspired by a certain hateful player I loved playing with XD) - and it's usually when I'm playing to win. I play lockdown to make money without using energy, and because I think the clashing and figuring out where/what the other people are doing (and trying to see if my team can get past it - the competitive aspect of the game) is fun.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:26

#58

Thunderbog

what

"3 reasons"

"Ego, Attention getting, Indulgence of killing"

YOU WIN THIS TIME

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 10:28

#59

Darkbrady

Well said, Seiran. I've

Well said, Seiran.

I've been in more than one game where we had lower total damage and lower total caps, but still won just because we made those caps count for more.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:04

#60

Psychodestroyer

I used to play T2 Lockdown...

Frostbite was my favourite map...

'Cuz there came a time, when I captured the enemy CP...alone...

And no-one came to my aid. All busy mass-suiciding on the central CP Q.Q

So I defended the point for half the game as a recon. My opponent's must not've been very good, I'm no good at PvP myself.

Least I made sure that CP was safe while I raked in team points. Unlike teh some peeps.

Note to kill-jockeys: If you're standing on a CP your team has captured, kills come to you. The more you resist, the more are going to come. Isn't that cool? :D

"Dirt, either you're being stubborn and pedantic or trying to instigate an argument with someone who made a thread specifically about people starting arguments with them."

This. (I was going to post a whine-to-the-whiner post here, but screw it.)

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:19

#61

Bzzts

Dark you are traitorous

You just sent a surge of US players who have asiVH hammers to EU.

(Cough *milititum * Coldness* cough)

/clap

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:23

#62

Darkbrady

Dw, over here we have class.

Dw, over here we have class. They won't fit in and will leave.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:38

#63

Dirtmaker

Ok. Long live your ignorance.

Ok. Long live your ignorance. @ inci

And I have no idea who you, Darkbrady, are, so please do not insult me when I am not speaking to you. You are nothing but a pest at this point into the comments. If you wish to speak to me, you do not do it in public. Message me in-game. IGN; Icegill

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:50

#64

Darkbrady

Insult you? I only commented

Insult you? I only commented that you're giving him hassle over your interpretation of his word choice. You're insisting that he change it because you think he's wrong. Which he's not. Which leads me to believe you're just being pointlessly stubborn, arrogant in the assertion that you're right about an opinion, or just picking fights.

None of which are an insult, just an observation on your behaviour. Fact is that you're talking in a public forum, so I don't really care whether you're talking to me or not, because you're openly talking to whoever's listening here. You want to talk to him without opinions like mine, then pm him in game~

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 12:56

#65

Dirtmaker

I said he should change it so

I said he should change it so no one takes it the way I took it. Get your facts straight. I never said he was wrong. I never thought he was wrong. He asked a question and I answered it so calm your ego down and quit talking like you are a superior here.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 13:05

#66

Spold

@Dirtmaker

The problem is...that most people have common sense unlike you. So they'd understand and they wouldn't take it like you.

I know I said I'd ignore you but you're really starting some conflict.

Also... you did say I was wrong because you said that you were "fixing my facts" when I simply just asked a question and with your technical mind, you don't understand that people isn't an exact synonym for everyone. Also, if you say that you weren't saying that I was wrong then that makes you a hypocrite because one, you did say it. Two, you're telling me saying people has a problem and I'm talking about everyone yet... you're doing the same thing, you're basically saying a synonym for "Incization, you're wrong." and you say "I DIDN'T SAY YOU WERE WRONG!" but when I say "people" you act like I say "everyone" when I say "I didn't say everyone, people can be any amount". So, **** off.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 13:01

#67

Psychodestroyer

"quit talking like you are a superior here."

0I-I, 73I-I 1R0I\IY!!!

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 13:03

#68

Doctorspacebar

Node 58425 - Guile's theme goes with it.

RELAX.

This fight is pointless.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 13:06

#69

Psychodestroyer

17 15?

1 C L075 0F P01I\I75, 7I-I3Y JU57 P01I\I71I\IG 1I\I 73I-I \/\/R0I\IG D1R3C710I\I5.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 14:55

#70

Dirtmaker

I was fixing your lack of

I was fixing your lack of knowledge on typing a simple thread. I have no problems with anyone here and if you read my comments, I am simply replying to your comments. I'm done here either way. Ciao.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:07

#71

Spold

@Dirtmaker

Please before you fix my knowledge, fix yours. I'm tired of your senseless posts.

There is no logic to fix in my thread because I'm either expressing an opinion or asking a question. Also, if this is about this "Everybody" and "People" thing then you need to back off because I gave you a legitimate reason to stop bothering me about this yet you're still being an ignorant little imbecile.

When I say people that doesn't mean everyone.

Example time, I could say people live in this house yet you would say "SO YOU'RE SAYING EVERYONE LIVES IN THIS HOUSE! *GASP* THAT IS ONE SMALL HOUSE FOR EVERYONE!"

I simply asked a question and you act like saying "people" ruins the whole thing. People do act like that about damage is the only thing important in Lockdown but that doesn't mean everyone. So, saying that you need to fix my logic and calling me ignorant makes you hypocritical because... I explained this already in a legitimate form yet you're over exaggerating about something as little as me saying "people" thinking it means everyone.

Point done, there is no logic to fix but your logic because you're being ignorant with misunderstanding of my comments.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:15

#72

Kalaina-Elderfall

I've been thinking about

I've been thinking about Lockdown stats and since this is here I might as well just go ahead and ask other people's opinion, in spite of the whole argument thing.

I don't think Lockdown stats accurately reflect a person's performance. Defends are kind of weird, so ignoring those; I'd prefer if the two stats displayed at the end of matches were something closer to "you get more capture stat points if you capture things alone than you do if you capture things with other people on the point too" and "damage dealt minus damage taken."

Specifically, oftentimes I will stand on a capture point alone and completely capture it. I get 1 capture for this, whereas say a group of four players who capture four points all get 4 captures each. But we've spent the same amount of time on capture points per person. So the "captures" stat doesn't accurately reflect how much time any given person's spent capturing in a given match.

Additionally, some players are often dealing a ton of damage, but they are also often dying a lot. If one of them gets 5 kills and dies 6 times doing it, should they really get more damage than someone who gets 2 kills and doesn't die at all?

Winning Lockdown is largely about being alive for a longer period of time than the other team and spending more time on capture points, and I feel like the stats don't reflect that; when people in turn take those stats as gospel (when there are even other considerations like how a large damage total means a lot more in a shorter match and is affected by how many people are on each team) then it's a bit annoying. Obviously I have no expectations that OOO would actually change the stat reporting, but it's food for thought.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:18

#73

Darkbrady

The only important thing in

The only important thing in LD is CP-hold time, which isn't recorded. Absolutely everything else is secondary to that. But since damage and caps are recorded, it's all people see. It's best to try not and win the game and aim for any record results. You'll invariably get distracted by one of them. It's best to either focus entirely on winning, even if you get 0/0/0 and are the sole reason your team won....or ignore winning altogether and go for a mad race for stats.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:18

#74

Spold

I understand why defends and

I understand why defends and damage is important but most people just want to brawl, ignore the capture points, and worry about getting like ten thousand damage instead.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:20

#75

Spold

I wish you had a choice to

I wish you had a choice to show your stats or not, well you can see it but not everyone else.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 15:55

#76

Darkbrady

Hiding them would serve no

Hiding them would serve no real purpose other than to make you feel like you have something to hide. Just don't worry about stats, they only record three facets of the game, and they're not the most important ones to consider. Was in a match yesterday where the other team got 20+ caps between them and over 70k total damage. Our team got...I think 25k damage and maybe a dozen caps.

No one on my team had impressive stats, none of us got any "omg awesome"s.

We won, in case it wasnae obvious.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:03

#77

Tenkii

I understand why defends and damage is important but most people just want to brawl, ignore the capture points, and worry about getting like ten thousand damage instead.

They do it cause it's fun. Why would they care about winning and losing when it's all about having fun for them?
:|

I believe I made this distinction in my last post. If we're talking about play-to-win, we can discuss that, but talking about play-for-fun styles... their reasoning is inarguable.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:08

#78

Darkbrady

It gets mixed up for some

It gets mixed up for some folk, because playing to win IS the fun for some people. Some folk seeing playing to win as stressful and requiring effort, and the fun in just blasting around stabbin' faces. Some folk just enjoy playing with a goal in mind; typically this will be the support classes who have fun by playing their class goals, which revolve around trying to win, whereas the "bullies" have the option of trying to win or not, and still just aim to have fun.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:17

#79

Dirtmaker

@Incization

I'm tired of your replies. If you don't want to talk to me and apparently, 'ignore me', then do it. Shut up and move on. You're a child who's trying to win an argument when there is none. If there is no point and my posts are senseless then please, by all means, ignore my posts. Not only do you not know what you're talking about, you have no idea what Lockdown even is. And do not compete my knowledge on Lockdown because it would be pointless... it's a game. A game is meant to be played and to be enjoyed. Stop arguing because I'm not. Stop insulting me because I'm not insulting you. I'm simply replying and you're fighting. I have posted my opinion on this post and you're attacking me for it so I'm defending myself, do not criticize me. Yes, I told you to fix your words because I misunderstood them and I don't want anyone else to perceive them in the wrong way like I did. And you're doing it again, 'people have common sense unlike you'. Your words are a joke. Pathetic.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:18

#80

Darkbrady

@Dirt: lol.

@Dirt:

lol.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 17:21

#81

Spold

@Dirtmaker

:|
:]
:}
:)
:D
:|D

/smile
/laugh
/grin
/me does anything related to smiling or laughing.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:28

#82

Timbalero

why is it so important?

Well look at it this way, the more your enemies are at the spawn point waiting (except when *cough cough cough* the other team is mist reviving frequently) the more time and influence your team will give to the points and the more ticks your team can get, but of course people with the "im going to kill noobs with AA" mentality don't understand the strategical point of view of dealing a great amount of damage balanced with capping and some defs on the side.

To me damage doesn't mean a thing if you are unable to cooperate with the team you are playing with whether is random team or GvG.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:33

#83

Michaelb

Forum Node 58425

Darkbrady and Incization -- Actually, it's pretty obvious that the two of you are doing all you can to seem like Dirtmaker's comments are just rolling off your backs.

All of you need to come off of your high horses.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 16:37

#84

Darkbrady

Doing all I can? I read it

Doing all I can? I read it and lol'd, what more should I do? Fact is that this thread was getting some real discussion on the matter and he was sitting whinging about his interpretation of the word choice of the OP and still is. It's the absolutely least relevant thing he could possibly have chosen to discuss in this thread and he's calling us the idiots? Aye, when people act like that, it makes me laugh. That's not a high horse, that's just me rapidly losing interest in even trying to hold a discussion with such people.

@Tim:
To me damage doesn't mean a thing if you are unable to cooperate with the team you are playing with whether is random team or GvG.

Well said.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 17:18

#85

Dirtmaker

And who exactly are you, a

And who exactly are you, a kid who thinks that he's everything. Shut up, you're a forum user whom not only is a complete joke, but you're incredibly ignorant. Who are you to insult me and Incization? If you don't want to hold a discussion with us then stop posting comments and replying to us. You hold half of the comments on this thread already, how more annoying can you possibly get? I wasn't even talking to you at all in this thread when you started with me so don't use the excuse that I 'instigated a fight'.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:22

#86

Spold

@Dirtmaker

You're ignorant which makes you a hypocrite. If my thread really bothered you that much then leave. I tried to ignore it and started to laugh but you continued to argue with me when Darkbrady made a post about you and not me so you just did another hypocritical thing and I didn't say that you 'instigated a fight'.

You see, you're just making these pointless posts that make no sense and like Darkbrady said: It's the absolutely least relevant thing you could possibly have chosen to discuss in this thread

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:31

#87

Thunderbog

._.

canozo

why are they still fighting

im creying

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:38

#88

Spold

@Thunderbog

I'm enjoying and despising this moment at the same time because he's making no sense and sounds funny and childish at the same time.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:34

#89

Darkbrady

Insult you? Also, when

Insult you? Also, when exactly did I insult Inci?

Well, you're calling me a kid, ignorant, annoying etc and pushing out basically every word you can think of while clearly not actually reading my posts, and now have just tried to pull a switcher and start a fight between Inci and myself, too.

Honestly, I kid you not, I can't decide if you're trolling or not. I mean, it's too coincidental for you to run in and start picking fights in a thread where someone is sick of fights, and start throwing off irrelevant posts when the discussion is about irrelevant stats, and now just trying to be blindly offensive because you have the spotlight by making enough of a fuss.

Am I just looking into it this too much?

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:39

#90

Spold

He didn't mean you insulted

He didn't mean you insulted me. When he said "Who are you to insult me?" he said "and Incization" which was gonna be the next message going towards me.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:54

#91

Psychodestroyer

...

Ok, this is just ridiculous.

I'm not even going to say why.

I'm just going to scream bloody murder and leave this thread.

/deep breath

/shout BLOODY MURDER!!!

/exuent

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 18:55

#92

Darkbrady

Poor Psycho :(

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:00

#93

Spold

@Psychodestroyer

This conflict will never end unless Dirtmaker quits saying the same repetitive junk.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:00

#94

Thunderbog

I SCREAM BLOODY FUS RO DAH

@PSYCHODESTROYER

HOW DARE YE STEAL MY THUNDER, GO HOME AND CRY IN A CORNER!

-grraaahhhh-

Ahem. More psychoness alert.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:03

#95

Dirtmaker

Its cute and fun to make you

Its cute and fun to make you kids beat up on the comment button

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:04

#96

Spold

@Dirtmaker

Same goes for you.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:05

#97

Darkbrady

Thunder...what the

Thunder...what the actual....?

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:11

#98

Softhead

Hey dirt.

Did anyone tell you to shut up?

This has gone so off track, it's not funny.

Just ignore that topic and come back to the main.

All this bull over a title name!?

Idiots....

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:13

#99

Spold

@Atrumvindex

Actually, it wasn't over the title name. He's mad because I said "people" and he thinks that people means everyone when it is NOT a synonym for everyone.

Sat, 11/10/2012 - 19:23

#100

Softhead

Well that's even more stupid.

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Why is damage so important in Lockdown?