So I've noticed people really hate players who use heart trinkets in Lockdown... Why? I've found I benefit more by running around with Very High boosts from module trinkets than I do by being able to take 2 more hits before I die.
I'm not saying that the hate is unjustified, I just literally can't understand why people get so mad about it. Can someone please explain just why they are considered so unbalanced?
People that consider spending that kind of CE on lockdown think it's pay-to-win. Obviously spending that kind of CE on other highly effect high-level craftable trinkets would also be pay-to-win but Elite _ Module isn't as obvious as taken twice as much damage before dying.
I personally don't consider it pay-to-win since... y'know... CE can be aquired as a free-player via the CE market. It's not pay-to-win unless it needs cash-monies and only the OCH reward items are tied specifically to cash-monies, but the conclusions to be drawn from that are for another thread. If it doesn't need cash-monies then I suppose you could fairly call it grind-to-win. I would call it "outfitting yourself."
".
Another reason, i believe, would be that it sort of messes up the health buffs/debuffs intended to balance the three classes.
So, strikers would be referred to as the 'glass cannon' class, with low health but a lot of power... but with heart trinkets it just becomes a lot of power, and uh, yeah.
@Senshi
I don't understand why people see a Penta-Heart user and assume he payed real money to get it. I spend money on CE every now and then, but for the most part, about 70% of my equipment was gained via CE I traded crowns for.
@Psychodestroyer
I honestly can't distinguish heart-trinket users from non-heart-trinket users. People die in nearly the same amount of hits; 12 extra HPs isn't much in Lockdown where weapons can easily do 12+ pips of damage.
@Chaosengineer
OK, I can sort of understand that. Strikers were never intended to run around with the health of a Guardian.
That is part of the reason striker is overpowered (although without heart trinkies, striker can still zip to heart pads to heal and replenish their life quite easily so they're already broken if health is the only issue, in a very built-in way.)
Anyway, HEART TRINKETS specifically are quite OP in that they are the better choice than any damage-type defense trinkets. Even if you could guarantee that everyone in LD had the same damage-type, I think they'd -still- be better than damage-type defense trinkets. They are balanced against damage trinkets in the clockworks in that you have to go a long ways before the next Terminal/Subtown/Cache of heart boxes, but in Lockdown there's only a few hits before you're dead/on a heart pad/hanging with a guardian. Not nearly as much time to equal out, leaving heart trinkies -way- ahead.
PS @Laraso: Well, yes, that's exactly why I was saying I think 'pay-to-win' is a misnomer. But that's what I usually hear as the justification for hating on people with hearts trinkies.
PPS, re not being able to tell the difference... Twice as many hits is a lot! I mean, perhaps it's more noticeable in T2 when it's 8 hits vs 4 than in T3 when it's 4 hits vs 2.... but it is still twice as much!
What I mentioned in my original post was the offensive trinkets you craft from the Krogmo machine.
I personally think all of the defensive trinkets are worthless. (Excluding HP trinkets, obviously. Those are decent defense trinkets.)
That's why I said such trinkets would obviously be just as much pay-to-win, they are just less easily detectable to most players.
"I honestly can't distinguish heart-trinket users from non-heart-trinket users. People die in nearly the same amount of hits; 12 extra HPs isn't much in Lockdown where weapons can easily do 12+ pips of damage."
Huh? Have you never played against a Striker without heart trinkets? Or a Guardian?
Strikers will last no more than 2 sword strikes by virtually any sword (Any "LD weapon", I.E. Hammer, DA, GF, FF, BTB, etc.), and only maybe a clip or two from a Polaris, depending what he's wearing.
I play Striker without heart trinkets all the time, and trust me, you feel like you die in one shot from anything. The 2nd hit from a DA or GF from a Skolver will put you at 3 pips. A Sentenza can gun you down in a moment's notice without heart trinkets.
Guardians with heart trinkets take a million years to kill. Their shields scale with their HP as well I believe, making them a serious tank. They're a pain in the [bucket] to fight.
Case and point, "Only 12 pips of HP" is double your normal HP as a Striker.
~Sev
How is anything OP in Lockdown if you can get it yourself (With the exception of maybe OCH, but there are players who sell it for 1.6k CE or so).
I hate all the "Lockdown isn't ballanced" raging that goes on. Lockdown will never be "ballanced" because you can bring in your own gear. At the same time, that's the whole freakin' point of lockdown to begin with. It's suppose to be for those who have done everything they can do in game, but still want a challenge (This is more aimed at T3 than T2 or T1). LD gives you a target to aim for that is nearly impossible to fully achieve, while still giving you a sense of accomplishment whenever you take one step closer to it.
Anyways! For the actual topic! People think Heart Trinkets are OP because people don't die when they want them to die.
@All
Meh, at least you guys appear to have a stable internet connection (at least 3-4 bars I'm assuming). I always have a big fat red dot, and the only thing I end up killing is the bacteria in the air......................
I have only one or two bars, ever. Usually one.
Which I find strange, considering on a decent computer I don't get massive lag. Accuracy gets off by about a square or two, maybe, but that's about it.
"Their shields scale with their HP as well I believe, making them a serious tank."
Pfffhaha. Nope.
I believe that a 2xPenta striker has as much health as an untrink'd guardian. To help plug the gap and regain their supposed advantage, many guardians tend to go for hearts too.
The main thing is that trinkets shore up the weak sides of the striker far more than they do for the other classes. Guardian and recon can't max all their offensive stuff with gear alone, so you'd their trinks are supposed go to offense. Strikers low health is supposed to be assisted by their incredible maneuverability (no hit=no dmg), so giving them even more health actually is *far* more useful than on a slower class, *especially* since they can run back to base and heal. That's not usually an option with guard/recon
Frankly, just remove the dmg med on the striker mod and make the heal pad 1/4 as effective for them, and it'll be good. The really good strikers will swap out one heart trink for dmg and still be godly. Then, when they dash back to base to heal, they'll be out of the fight for a decent amount of time. I've lost count how many times I've had a striker run off with maybe 3 pips of health to heal. No other class can really do that. They have to commit, or take an age to walk back to base (and probably get hunted down/killed on the way).
When you see as many people go for one class like this, it isn't just because it's the most fun. It's flat out more effective.
I don't really notice a difference, seeing as I'm only in T2. Magnus and Shadowtech take all the same amount of shots to take out a striker(Dusker or no Dusker), from my point of view. Unless it's a guardian with heart trinkets, I don't notice much a difference. Although, I'm not T3 certified, so I have no say in that.
FIRSTLY!
I honestly can't distinguish heart-trinket users from non-heart-trinket users. People die in nearly the same amount of hits; 12 extra HPs isn't much in Lockdown where weapons can easily do 12+ pips of damage.
You can't distinguish because you simply don't see non-heart strikers. Watch me next time I play striker and I guarantee you'll notice immediately. Non-heart strikers die in 1~2 hits, flat out, no questions; and not just from max:dmg sealed swords, either. Heart strikers die in 3~4. It is a blindingly obvious difference, it's just that you don't see it. They have the same hp as recon/guardian see it seems "the norm", but the fact is they're supposed to have half the hps and die in half the time/hits. You're just too used to facing heart strikers.
Anyhoo:
Because I cbf typing it all out again.
Guyinshinyarmour covered it nicely enough though. Thing is that strikers can very comfortably get max:max stats without trinket slots, so can stack Hearts on top of their maxed loadout and get perfect stats while utterly negating their drawbacks and taking in the hp benefits of the other classes.
Recon/guardian wants Hearts, they have to sacrifice some stats; simple as.
And aye, you'll find that some VH works nicely for you, but you play Guardian; you have a big shield, high base hp and low stats; you wanna max off your stuff using your trinky slots. But 'dem strikers have the same hp as you. And booster. And all their stats maxed, while you don't. In fact, as things go, they just have no disadvantage under you, other than that shield of yours which they can break in 2 hits, while there's not a thing you can do to stop their boosting.
Considerin' the classes are supposed to be balanced, see the problem with that picture?
I think the Striker boost should be completely drained if they get hit just like for a Recon if they're cloaked. That way, they can actually be trapped if they get careless. It wouldn't fix everything, but I think it would help some.
Aye, have wanted that myself quite often. Won't change much in the long run, because hitting a boosting striker really is a lot harder than it sounds, but it's more about the principle of the matter; recon cloaks can be torn apart just by spraying antiguas, alchs or pulsars....
What if Healt pendants gave normal defense, like jelly bands and skelly charms.
If you compare brinks trinkets, the difference is huuuge.
Just to summarize.
Health Trinkets takes out the balance of the game in LD, So it makes the battles longer and "Sometimes more enjoyable". Because Striker is meant to be an cannon glass, but it is acting like a Fast Guardian. That's why people hate it. I actually have Tetras :3 But I am really sure that trinkies destroys teamwork and balance.
I can personally attest that heart pendants are indeed quite powerful and unbalanced in LD. I have done multiple tests with a couple of my friends and these are the results of our testing. I equip two tri-heart pendants and a tempered calibur while one of my friends equip a stable rocket hammer and no trinkets. After about a hour we found that I would win almost every time on a 1v1 fight. As you can clearly see heart pendants give a unfair advantage to anyone who has them.
To fix the problem of the pendants (This is Brady's idea) would be to disable trinkets in lockdown, same way shields are disabled. Now I know many people will most likely complain about how they do not get to use them in LD if this ws to ever happen but even so it will make the game a bit more balanced (I personally think LD will never be truly balanced but that is for another thread to discuss).
So, if we're talking hits here, this is how much of a difference heart trinkets make with max damage skolver.
(This is for strikers.)
Flourish:
W/O Heart Trinkets: 3 hit kill
W/Full Pentas: 4-5 hit kill (depending on UVs)
Gran Faust/DA
W/O Heart Trinkets: 2 hit kill
W/O Full Pentas: 3 hit kill
You guys act like it adds 2 minutes of survivability.
The way I see it, heart trinkets simply raised the amount of time people can stay out there (only by a little bit, look above ^). The only clear unbalancing I see is for the recon. Back then it was really easy to dispose of strikers and guardians. It was a sad day for me as a recon when heart trinkets came out. xD
Well in T3 the difference is not as noticeably but if you go to T2 you will know straight away if someone has heart pendants on. A striker in T2 without hearts has about 7 pips while a striker with them can get double that. As Brady has said a heart striker can have the health of a guardian with the added bonus of having better offensive stats and a booster.
The biggest problem is that people use hearts on strikers which gives them health, which in turn negates the only real drawback a striker has, low health. If you use them on a guardian you are still a tank, so it does not change much, just lets you tank a little more. As for a recon once you are hit you are pretty much dead as your ability is just gone, it really does not matter if you have hearts on or not.
@Bacon-Strip
"You guys act like it adds 2 minutes of survivability."
That is exactly the same thing I was thinking... 2 hits vs. 3 hits isn't really that big. If they took you from 2 hits to maybe 5, 6, or 7, then yeah, we'd have a problem.
@Wolfe-Knight
It's not like Guardians take a long time to kill; the main thing that keeps them alive for so long is that shield of theirs. Sometimes I'll see an enemy guardian who doesn't bother to shield, and they'll die very quickly. Strikers do not have a shield.
Also, going by that logic, doesn't that make a guardian with dual pentas equally as powerful? That's taking their class HP advantage of +14 and adding an additional +12 onto it; a total of +26. If they were wearing Ancient Plate on top of that, it'd be +32, but I guess that's balanced by the fact that you get ASD medium and MSD medium.
2 equal players on equal conditions. ASI and damage doesnt matter because of UVs and other bonuses.
Healt trinkets are the only available option. Instead of them, you could use a trinket that boost your sidearm or a status trinkie from brinks.
Maybe it's not too good, but the rest are super bad then. It kills the only variety option left for skolver clones.
Truly valid points both of you are giving, but I am speaking more about T2 as I have little to no experience in T3 so I can not post a valid counter for anything regarding T3, sorry.
@Laraso
In T3, from what I see, heart pendant do not make much of a difference (this is from spectating) as all weapons do a lot of damage and the extra couple pips of health are gone in a instant, so you are right on idea of 2 to 3 hits not being much. In terms of T2 though you go from 2 hits from a sealed sword to about 4 or 5, a pretty big jump.
Strikers do not have a shield as you said, but instead they have something with far more uses. In example, are you being attacked? boost away. Is the person you are fighting running away, well chase him down and whack him in the face. Guardians on the other hand only have a shield that once it breaks you are just relying on your health to bring you through the fight.
I must try using Ancient Plate and my pentas in T3, sounds like fun to me.
@Little-Juances
It is true that health trinkets are the only viable option as most other trinkets do very little to help out. The only other options for trinkets would be offensive ones as defensive trinkets are quite useless in my opinion. I do not mean to be rude but I had to laugh at the idea of variety on a clone.
@Bacon:
You can't just throw numbers out there Bacon. Idk where you're getting your numbers from...but you're assuming the gear factor as well as the opponent's Sword Damage modifier factor.
For your information, full pentas double your HP. If without trinkets it took 3 hits (Which depends on if they combo or 1-hit), with trinkets it'll take 5~6, depending on leftover HP.
Gran Faust/DA does take two hits to kill without trinkets, but you're forgetting something very important. One hit leaves you with 2 pips of HP. A stray bullet from a Valiance, Alchemer, Polaris, a stray blast of a Brandish, anything will kill you after one hit. So, why would someone actually hit you with two strikes?
2 minutes of survivability? Depends how long you live normally. It effectively doubles your HP, how long you live, gives you twice as many chances for error, allows you to heal and not have to go through respawn much more easily, and Status Effects will not kill you instantly.
You're acting like they're no big deal - but any fool can tell you that you wouldn't play as well if you had other trinkets instead of hearts.
~Sev
You're getting double HP by driving up the price of energy. What's not to hate? Having double HP is almost like having another person on your team. Personally, I dislike OOO more for putting them in the game than the players who choose to use them. Not that I don't at least partially dislike both.
quotes and such;
"That is exactly the same thing I was thinking... 2 hits vs. 3 hits isn't really that big. If they took you from 2 hits to maybe 5, 6, or 7, then yeah, we'd have a problem."
It's usually bigger than that, whoever wrote those numbers is misinformed. Lemmie think here, one hammer hit deals exactly half my HP, so factoring in the 3 hp rule*, it takes 3 hits to kill me. If I had double HP, it would take out a fourth of my health each time, so that's 4 hits plus the extra from 3hp rule, so it would take 5 hits. From 3 hits to 5 hits. Yeah, we have a problem.
*(if your hp is above 3 and something hits you below 3, it only go too 3 hp instead of past it. )
" At the same time, that's the whole freakin' point of lockdown to begin with. It's suppose to be for those who have done everything they can do in game, but still want a challenge"
Yes! The whole point of LD is to see who has run vannaduke the most times! Bra-vo, good sir! Seriously though, if they wanted a challenge, why are they using HP pendants?
"For your information, full pentas double your HP. "
-as a striker. Just putting that in there.
That's the other thing I hate about heart pendants. As a striker, you get DOUBLE hp, but as a guardian the percent difference is much less significant. Not that pendant guardians aren't annoying.
@Bacon:
Don't be so naive, there's more to the game than raw numbers otherwise Suda and A.Plate would be the game winning combo, because they have the biggest numbers. Seriously, don't even act like there's applicable fact in that logic.
Sev nailed it: redundant damage. A no-heart can tank one hit of a Sealed and have nothing left, then die from anything, ever. Sure it "technically" takes two hits of a Sealed, but it would be more accurate to say that a no heart dies from one Sealed hit and sneeze in your general direction.
Whereas a heart clone can tank two hits of a Sealed and still have hp left enough to survive a couple hits of other stuff.
OH! And that's assuming you have max damage. We haven't yet mentioned fights against recons/guards who don't have that. A Heart Snarby can tank 4~5 GF hits from a vh GF, including second swings. A no heart Snarby dies in two GF hits, vh or max.
Those numbers a big enough difference for you?
@Lar/topic:
Huge, huge difference there, which you neglected to point out. Laraso, ik you're smart enough, so I hope you understand that much. It makes a vast difference; especially when the striker is skilled. A really skilled striker doesn't get hit often, so when you essentially double their health, you're doubling their life expectancy, which can often be a long time. Not to rag on their skill on anything, but if someone is just too good for everyone else to land easy hits on, needing to land another 2/3 just becomes a mission in itself, and that's assuming they don't run back to heal while you all respawn. In other words: it can add more than "2 mins of survivability". And we've not even reached the discussion of spawn camping, yet.
Although, let me put it this way.
If the trinkies really make so little difference: why do people use them? And I don't mean some people, I mean *everyone*. Strikers will sacrifice all their ASI for hearts, so it's not even the max UVd players that use tehm. Somehow, somewhere, people have enough common sense to realise it makes a massive, massive difference.
Basically, if in doubt, give it a shot. Seriously, just play a no-heart striker and face off a heart clone. Even if you're a total sword pro and kill his face in, just take a moment to consider the balance aspects at play: you had to hit him twice as much to kill, and had to avoid being hit even once or you'd be at <50% hp. It's a game-changer: you just can't see it because (if I'm correct?) you just haven't tried it out from there yet, and have mostly just been observing others.
Obviously it matters a little less in T3, considering in T3 LD everything goes to Firestorm pretty quickly.
In T1 to T2, the difference will be more noticeable.
I myself don't particularly care, but I still find said Trinket users a pain in the bucket to kill, considering that many more hits I need to land, also considering how I'm lucky enough to land a hit.
So wait a minute, now you're complaining about your gear and your damage bonus?
Why not just make another skolver rage thread?
Full pentas also don't double your HP, don't throw out BS numbers.
It brings your health from 15 to 27. Math.
You guys shouldn't be the ones throwing out numbers.
Max damage flourish vs. no piercing defense: 315
Max damage flourish vs. skolver/justifier/ironmight set with no UVs: 290
Max damage flourish vs. skolver/justifier/ironmight set with double piercing max UVs: 239
For VH damage subtract approximately 14 from the previous numbers, for Medium damage subtract 28, for no damage subtract 42.
Each pip = 40 damage. Do the math yourself.
Me and my guildmates have done extensive research on everything lockdown, and we have tons of numbers, so who's "throwing out" numbers now?
If you have any further questions, feel free to send me a mail ingame. Because I actually know what I'mt talking about because I've actually tested numerical data.
Um bacon strip, 15-27 is just about double, about 92% increase.
I find it hilarious that people say I'm throwing out numbers, yet when they make a simple math error, suddenly, I'm the bad guy.
/clap
People that don't actually go out of their way to find out how numbers actually work in lockdown are telling me I'm wrong.
The amount of ignorance in this thread, is too damn high!
No, your first post was assuming too many variables. You just put out numbers assuming sword damage, gear, etc. without showing what you were using for the numbers. Not complaining about those bonuses, but you never said what 'formula' you were using for them.
My point remains, one sealed sword and as Brady terms "A sneeze in your general direction" are all it takes to kill you. So, saying two sealed strikes to kill, while technically accurate, are simply not practical numbers in LD because chances are you'll get hit by something else before you get hit by a full combo of a Sealed Sword.
For practical intents and purposes, it'd be better to display the number of hits before death in decimals. You know, like roughly 1.2 strikes instead of saying "2", assuming max damage.
Also, with 15 ~ 27 pips, you will roughly survive twice as much as normal. Unless you take some odd damage from stray bullets or something, I'm unaware of anything that will go evenly into 27 to achieve a perfect death.
Edit: Must you always come off as such an egomaniac?
~Sev
You are coming off as the bad guy because you're getting childish and whiney about semantics. No, we know it's not exactly double, but good god it's close enough. 15 to 27, you don't call double? Mate, it might as well be. Really. Just....honestly are you actually saying that 90%+ isn't worth discussing because it doesn't reach the definition of double? Are you saying that if it's not ACTUALLY double, then it might as well be a 0% difference?
And you're still just "throwing out numbers" because you're giving raw data instead of applicable information. Seriously, look up the difference between the two words. Research of exact numbers only gets you so far; after a while it has to be field-tested to get correct results, and thats where your numbers fall apart.
Again no hearts being 2 hits from a GF and hearts being 3 hits from a GF is technically and numerically correct. But on the field, that's simply not how it plays out. You get hit by a GF then you just drop dead because someone farted nearby. You catch a shock spasm and die, you get hit by a stray bullet, they chase you w/ FF. Your numbers aren't taking into account that 70%+ of that second GF hit is redundant.
It would be more accurate to say that 1.3 GF hits is enough to kill a no-heart, while about 2.5 (give or take?) is enough to kill a heart clone. Oh no, it's not double!...only like 90% increase, might as well be nothing, right?
So, as much as you're egotistically bragging that you know all the stuff and you've done all your research; you have to apply it before you come on forums raving about how wrong everyone else is, especially when your raw data gives false impressions. Laraso wasn't making a rage-thread, he was genuinely asking why hearts are considered OP, and your raw numbers imply that they're not because you're presenting them in a deceitful (deliberate or otherwise) manner that ignores fundamental and essential factors in the discussion.
Sorry, I'm just tired of people throwing out random numbers that haven't been testing and them saying it "feels unfair".
I'm just saying, before you throw out things as facts, maybe you should test them.
And like I said, if you have any question about numerical data go ahead and send me a mail ingame.
My standpoint will not change. I enjoy heart trinkets for how they prolong battles and make the game more interesting.
I've already suggested a percentage health boost of original health, making ancient plate and different classes more viable, but apparently that gets shot down everytime.
To each their own.
(By the way a Gran Faust first swing does 10.25 pips and the second swing does 13.25 to someone with no shadow and the standard normal defense found on wolver and gunner lines.)
Also, you can stop attacking me Brady. Thanks, I've already seen enough of your ever expanding knowledge to know what you have to say.
I've already suggested a percentage health boost of original health, making ancient plate and different classes more viable, but apparently that gets shot down everytime.
Wait, you did? Where can I necro it?
I agree that heart trinks make the game prolonged in terms of Striker battles, but ya know not everyone likes to spend some 2.2k CE on something they'll only use in LD, a relatively small portion of this game.
Idk about numerical data, but I would like someone to explain to me how to beat hammers. No complaining, I'm legit asking because every time I face one I get wrecked over. Maybe I just need more practice.
"(By the way a Gran Faust first swing does 10.25 pips and the second swing does 13.25 to someone with no shadow and the standard normal defense found on wolver and gunner lines.)"
Oh, I was wondering what the damage difference was. Thanks for that.
~Sev
That Gran Faust data is coming off of max damage as well. Forgot to mention that.
I would enjoy the "prolonged battles" aspect more if it didn't complete skew the game dynamic. A real problem arises when you get so many free offensive bonuses and get as much hp as the tank class...and dat booster.
I've already stated on my Hearts thread (in response to Spookington) that I'm not sure how it would go down if a max stat heart clone faced off with a maxed stat heart recon (since i've never seen that) so I don't know how the game would ever actually be if it had both prolonged battles and was fair. The main problem I see is that guardians just being a bore to kill for anyone but strikers, since they'd just have so much hp then.
Tangent maybe, but I'm saying that it's not the "hp/longer battles" bit I'm against. It's the fact that strikers only get one single drawback/weakness (minus the bombs) and it is so, so easily and entirely mitigated, while the other classes need to work a lot harder to do so, and lose out a lot more. That is, by definition, not balance.
And I'm not attacking you Bacon, just pointing out that you are coming off as incredibly one-sided, whiney and arrogant: am I a racist if I call a black man black? Especially since you actually asked why you're being treated as such. All I'm doin' is pointing out some things so that your "correct numbers" don't get taken without a pinch of salt. Giving one-sided and incomplete information off as fact, then crying and whinging at others for semantics over an 8% difference is not exactly behaviour that merits anything but a /facepalm.
So, would that mean that without max damage, it would do roughly 9.25 pips and 12.25 pips respectfully, or does sword damage Max! work off percentages, thus having different effects on GF than FF?
~Sev
All damages are calculated in a linear pattern, each level of damage lowers the output by about 4%, making the lowest approximate -24% of the original damage number bringing it down to 7.75 and 10, but these numbers could be slightly off due to rounding, and the fact the it is split damage, I don't have full data on Gran Faust/DA yet, but I will try to get it soon.
The numbers might round down lower to 7 and 9.5ish, when I am bombing and using a Gran Faust I know that my first and second swing + first swing does not kill a full HP striker. But if they are poisoned, they do die, so the damage is already pretty close to killing them without the poison.
Also, the heart trinkets isn't the main reason the classes are unbalanced. Sure, it certainly doesn't help, but the classes themselves are very unbalanced. Recons are mostly a joke, but guardians can stand their own.
The "combat triangle" if you will, is not balanced, strikers are decent at killing guards, and excellent at killing recons, while recons are bad at killing strikers, but decent at killing guards, and guards are decent at killing everything. It's kind of a strange set up as it stands. It certainly is no rock-paper-scissors.
Yeah it's more like dynamite-gunpowder-fuse.
Huh, I knew sword damage mods were useful, but I didn't know they were that useful. 7 - 9.5 from 10.25 - 13.25. That's a pretty great difference, all things considered. Although technically, you can never have absolutely no sword damage bonuses as a Striker, since the loadout gets a Med bonus.
Personally, I think heart trinkets just amplify the unbalancing that already exists - obviously especially in cases where one person has them and the other does not. I'm sure OOO will get around to it one day...
On a completely unrelated note Bacon, I now will forever imagine the tongue coming from the lizard suit is a strip of bacon hanging from its mouth...
~Sev
@Bacon:
Although I completely agree with you about the triangle being off, I'm just curious what you're thinking when you say "recon". When someone says "striker" it's generally imaged as swords, for example, but recons can so easily be any class.
For example, my gunner recon might as well be pinging paper balls at guards, but can kill strikers soundly enough by trolling with my twin hails, and similarly my assassin recon can get nice sneaksy kills on strikers but also tends to fall short on guardians because they take 2/3 hits more to break through shields all while they're swingin' around tryin' to decloak me.
Not disagreeing that the triangle/class bonuses are about as balanced as an elegant car crash, just curious about your opinion of why; I honestly find strikers easier to deal with as recon than guards. Except my bomber recons, I guess; strikers are the problem there, whereas guards tend to wind up just being shieldlocked forever.
"On a completely unrelated note Bacon, I now will forever imagine the tongue coming from the lizard suit is a strip of bacon hanging from its mouth..."
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/242/098/9fe.jpg
Strikers have around 13 - 15 HP without HP trinkets. If getting hit once leaves you with two pips, that means dual penta-hearts will only let you take one more hit. Am I missing something here?
If 90% of strikers use them, like people are saying, then who really has any place to say they are overpowered? Because that means 90% of players are getting equal HP boosts, meaning 90% of players have the same HP.
Also, I think people are assuming we're talking about Skolver clone strikers. Where does gear resistance come into play in this discussion? Where do the other classes come into play?
When I'm marching around in my Volcanic Plate set, it takes hammer users 3 - 4 hits to kill me, compared to the 2 - 3 hits it takes without elemental resistance.
When I'm using my Fallen Armor set, GF users 3 - 4 hits to kill me, compared to the 2 - 3 hits it takes without shadow resistance.
When I'm using my Ironmight Plate set, it takes peircing sword users around 3 - 4 hits to kill me, compared to the 2 - 3 it takes without piercing resistance.
My tendency to use plate armor means I can usually just completely ignore pure normal damage weapons; it takes a Valiance like 8 - 10 hits to kill me, and that's not taking into consideration my shield.
All of that is without HP pendants.
Now, I play defender, so if I were to throw on dual HP pendants like "everyone else", going by the logic in this thread, it'd take anywhere from 5 - 6 hits to kill me, without shielding. Now, considering the shield can tank an additional 2 hits from swords, that'd be 7 - 8 hits. Defenders also have on-demand healing at anywhere, anytime, even during a battle. That means 7 - 8 hits minimum. If I'm shielding intelligently, the range of hits becomes 7 - 9 hits during a battle. If I survive, I can heal myself without having to return to spawn, allowing me to take an undetermined amount of additional hits. Who cares about that though, because apparently heart trinkets are only OP if you're a striker.
That's all just speculation, but isn't that what mostly everyone here is doing? If 90% of players are running around with HP trinkets, doesn't that just mean everything is evened out and those who have skill (*cough*or.max.uvs*cough*) will be the ones who survive?
Maybe I can't tell the difference between the trinket users and trinket non-users because, like everyone is saying, everyone uses them. If that's true, then I still don't see the big deal, because players aren't really that hard to kill in the first place.
-Strikers have around 13 - 15 HP without HP trinkets. If getting hit once leaves you with two pips, that means dual penta-hearts will only let you take one more hit. Am I missing something here?
As has already been said, no-heart striker goes from full hp to a sneeze away from death in one hit. A heart striker goes from full hp to over half hp in one hit. A second hit brings them to low, but manageable hp. That doesn't seem like a pretty colossal difference to you? Like I've said, you won't see this much because of teh dual-reason that you'll be against very, very few no-heart strikers, and because it's much easier to be aware of teh differences after having actually tried it yourself. Best method to learn is self-experimentation. You're clearly confused here (as by this point I'm having to repeat myself...) so...just go try it out. Play with a no heart striker and see whether or not you think "it makes no difference" against a team of heart clones.
-If 90% of strikers use them, like people are saying, then who really has any place to say they are overpowered? Because that means 90% of players are getting equal HP boosts, meaning 90% of players have the same HP.
That logic is only valid if strikers were the only class. As a striker vs striker situation, then it's balanced. Unless you don't have/use them, in which case it's highly unbalanced (as opposed to a recon vs a Heart recon: not so imba, tbph). But since those strikers now have as much hp as every other class, it removes their "glass cannon" status, which is precisely what they were designed to be. They're not supposed to have the same hp as all other players, so justifying it with "well we all have the same hp" doesn't work.
The problem isn't that everyone evenly uses hearts; it's that only strikers do. Not many recons/guards actually use them at all. If absolutely everyone did, then we'd be fine...y'know, apart from the fact taht strikers get max:max while no one else can get taht with Hearts.
-Who cares about that though, because apparently heart trinkets are only OP if you're a striker.
And I've already stated that guardians with hearts is a problem, and is my main reason for opposing "remove heart trinkets, but give everyone +12 base hp"...because guardians would godmode over gunners and recons.
Honestly, like everything you said in that post has already been addressed...
" Play with a no heart striker and see whether or not you think "it makes no difference" against a team of heart clones."
I've tried to play as a striker before, both with heart pendants and without them. I just end up dying constantly either way! Striker just isn't my kind of class.
"As has already been said, no-heart striker goes from full hp to a sneeze away from death in one hit. A heart striker goes from full hp to over half hp in one hit. A second hit brings them to low, but manageable hp. That doesn't seem like a pretty colossal difference to you?"
"Honestly, like everything you said in that post has already been addressed..."
But that's exactly the reason why I posted again... Taking three hits to die as opposed to two hits isn't really a colossal difference, in my opinion, and I can't understand why everyone else thinks it is.
/sigh
I guess I should just stop thinking about it and continue on doing things like I always have.
But that's exactly the reason why I posted again... Taking three hits to die as opposed to two hits isn't really a colossal difference, in my opinion, and I can't understand why everyone else thinks it is.
Okay I'll say it again. But just this once. When you get hit by a Sealed sword once without pentas, you get down to ~3 pips (Depending on variables yadda yadda). The chances that they will hit you again with a Sealed to kill you are low. A stray bullet, any damaging status effect, a polaris shot, you're dead. With trinkets, you soak a full combo of Sealed, and have HP to go back and heal.
Bacon technically correctly stated it takes two Sealed sword hits without trinkets, but those numbers just aren't practical. It's very unlikely you'll take a full combo before getting hit by something else.
So, I can tell you the difference. I once played a T3 game where no striker on my team used heart trinkets. Not one, which is almost unheard of. The other team had like 4/6 players as penta-strikers.
The final score was like 280 to 900. That's the difference. Also, when I play without trinkets, I get ~7K damage, and 5 caps. When I play with only one penta I get ~11K damage, and caps doesn't change generally. I've never played with two pentas, but one can only imagine...
If you still "don't understand", try to re-read all the posts. If you still don't understand after that, you should stop trying to understand.
Edit: Oh, and pentas do affect the other classes. The thing is Striker is simply the most versatile class, and it goes from a Glass Cannon to a Steel Cannon. Guardians are just boring as all-get-out to fight when they have pentas, and they don't die at all. Recons...you can't really tell unless they are bombing...cause strikers wipe them out pretty quickly otherwise.
~Sev
Because with all that extra health, you (not pointing fingers) are a MASSIVE pain in the [bucket] to kill.
So while there are those trinkets that supplement your skill, Health Trinkets just let you take more hits, and so you die a long time after you should've.
Which annoys a lot of people considering you can take THAT many more hits, and so are a bigger and more noticeable threat.