Yeah, buff is too much. Glass cannon doesn't really apply if you still have defense, the only thing missing is some status resist that can be made up with UVs. A much fairer buff would have been to add universal ASI low per piece.
So Mad Bomber is worthless now
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 15:47
#52
Yeah, buff is too much. Glass
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 15:53
#53
Yeah, my mad bomber set is
Yeah, my mad bomber set is useless now.
What about shadowsun? Is chaos set be better than shadowsun set for gunners in LD now? Dmg and Ctr VH for guns.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 15:58
#54
Other sets at least have some status resistances to "compensate". Gunners have less to lose than bombers.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 15:59
#55
i still felt the chaos was
i still felt the chaos was more of a utility / jack of all trades kind of set as opposed to a glass cannon. It has the boosts for all weapon types but it lacks at being able to deal max damage without trinkets. at least without sacrificing trinket slots to do it. I always thought of it similar to being a Red Mage class.
Maybe there are some other armor sets that can be considered if you guys were going for a glass cannon style of play.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:03
#56
Well, I don't use shadowsun
Well, I don't use shadowsun for pvp or pve because of its defense or status resistance. The damage bonus is the main reason.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:07
#57
@Nick
If you really want to buff chaos set, I am quite happy with asi: low, damage: low, ctr: low. I can bet everyone is happier this way.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:10
#58
+1 to Poopsie's idea
That's a great idea.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:16
#59
Wait! I have the solution!
Chaos set was only used by the hipsters before but there is a very good reason why it's stronger than Skolver/Shadowsun/Bomber sets now.
Skolver has freeze resistance but Chaos cloak doesn't; this means PvP will involve more status damage and may make Shivermist a more viable option now. Even the richest players can't have status resistances for all of their stuff now so they will have a weakness if they use Chaos set.
I think that Mad Demo Set should just have a CTR High and Damage High per piece since it'll be a more specialized glass canon.
Just think of the diversity! Something's even better than Skolver now for the truly skilled!
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:25
#60
@NICK
+1 for Sir Alfred and Burntsouls
I said something like "this is OP, nerf it" (http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/73630) but lets think it again yeah....
People will rage if you nerf it, because they would have spent TONS of money for Fire Max Shock MAx Magic set.
I would say instead of nerfing Chaos set's offense bonus, give it more penalty. It currently is Med penalty but make it high or so.
OR just simply buff Mad bomber, by adding something like extra health bonus/low penalty/Movement speed increased
@Mister ^
CTR High is kinda pointless since lvl10 bombs get med ctr
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:32
#61
:c
:c
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:32
#62
@Eclaium
The CTR high is for striker bombers who are feeling brave.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:34
#63
Errr... some people bought OCH just because Dark Retribution seemed the greatest bomb ever. But a week later... MASSIVE NERF (justified, but still..) Something similar happened to my sun shards..... Damn, all the examples I can think of involves bombers....
Let's just say I wouldnt be surprised if OOO nerfs chaos back and people need to be carefull for a couple of days before jumping in.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:36
#64
Then people should be smarter
@Eclaim
Then people should be smarter with their money. You should be weary of any decisions you make especially when there is quite a bit of backlash with the community as well as an official statement of the Exec stating that they are re-looking into it.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:41
#65
--
Other sets that seem 'obsolete' now as a result of this change are being evaluated.
Does that mean Chaos is staying as it is?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:43
#66
@ReqyI've already had Fire
@Reqy
I've already had Fire Med Chaos cloak and chaos cowl before I even made Vog cub anyway....
Oops, it is not me you pointed out *cough*
I just thought of something, adding stun penalty /giggle
This is gonna be annoying, trojan, vana, and stagger in LD!
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 16:58
#67
Here's an idea, return the
Here's an idea, return the chaos set to what it was yesterday.
Nothing was wrong with it.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:00
#68
@Juances
Dark Retribution is still awesome, as is everything you get from OCH.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:00
#69
@Bacon-Strip
Waitaminute, don't you use Skolver or Snarby instead of Chaos? Nothing was wrong with it, but it didn't seem right enough to be used as more than a costume or a challenge.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:03
#70
Universal CTR and Damage is
Universal CTR and Damage is not a reason to use it? Say hello to perfect FSC set, CTR Med Blitz, CTR Med Electron, CTR Med + Undead Brandish Line, Swiftstrike, Chaos. Done.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:06
#71
The True Glass Cannon
As Nick wanted Chaos Set to be a "glass cannon", I just suggested to turn it into a true glass cannon > http://forums.spiralknights.com/es/node/73660
If we are going to make it, why not go all the way and create a style of gameplay exclusive to that?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:11
#72
A simple solution
Chaos->Swords and Guns
Mad Bomber->Guns and Bombs (guns make explosions too!)
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:14
#73
My proposal:
Chaos set: keep buff
Mad Bomber set: bomb CTR vhigh, bomb DB max
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:23
#74
@Thinslayer
That kind of a buff can be gotten easily via a trinket. Why craft a full *5 set of armor to get max bomb damage when you can just use chaos and a trinket to get:
Everything: Damage VH/ CTR Max
Bombs: Max/Max
Cheaper to craft a 5* trinket than a two pieces of 5* armor.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:32
#75
Reset Chaos or Fix is Complicated
The chaos doesnt just mess up the mad bomber set, it ruins gunner sets too. By keeping the chaos and buffing the mad-bomber, you leave other sets behind. Much easier to just put the chaos back where it was, and find a different armor to make a glass-cannon.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:38
#76
Oh my god.
Three Rings, you... You didn't have to... I... I already love my Chaos but... Sniff...
Sorry, let me... Let me collect myself here...
Deep breaths....
In... Out...
In... Out..
Whew...
Okay, I think I'm good now. Ahem.
So Chaos got a buff. All right. I'll say this though, the CTR Very High was absolute overkill. Why? Because it removes any need for focus modules or CTR UVs. Get any weapon up to level 10 and you can immediately utilise CTR maximum by equipping yourself with Chaos. Other equipment that provide ASI or DB Very Highs still need an additional bonus to reach maximum, such as a quick module, ASI UV or equipping yourself with a Swiftstrike Buckler, or DB vs UV, Trueshot/Slash/Boom module or in the case of swords, Barbarous Thorn Shield. They need something else to achieve the maximum boost, whereas Chaos' current CTR bonus grants you maximum just from having a weapon at level 10.
Revert CTR to medium and keep the DB VH. That'll be swell. Some people suggested a universal ASI but this is already provided by Fallen, so if you do that then buff Fallen first to provide ASI VH and then with Chaos ASI med.
That's it for me, for now.
~Shidara
The Arcane Chaos
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:39
#77
Nononono, don't ruin success!
Shadowsun gives you poison resistance and shadow defense, other gunner sets gives you ASI. Chaos set only seems great because people underestimate the severity of statuses. The glass canon is now a viable option for people who actually want to deal as much damage as the other set users!
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:42
#78
@Nineball-Seraph
Because not everyone has or can afford trinkets. I certainly can't. It's like saying that Vog should be nerfed because people can just use an SSB.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:45
#79
So.
You'd rather blow about 3kce on crafting an armor set than 6-8kcr a month?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 17:48
#80
We cant talk much abouy "glass cannonns" when only devilites are challenging. It's already evident this game is offense-based.
O0o can't just tweak a random armor and expect it to work. We need to overhaul everything in the game and release a big balanced patch rather than doing things like this one by one. There's a test server. Why dont we use it?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:16
#81
User of chaos set here
Honestly, I'm quite happy with giving it asi, dmg and ctr low per piece. Almost anyone who got the chaos set would use it to be a hybrid. I liked to mix in bombs into my loadout, and removing ctr would make me unable to do that. This would put the chaos set in line with the other bonus armors, and make all the current chaos set owners happy.
Edit: Shidara's suggestion makes me quite happy too.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:28
#82
I'm actually on-board with
I'm actually on-board with the others giving it just an ASI bonus and maybe giving the Fallen Set an ASI : Medium bonus per piece-and heavenly iron set bonus med per piece also(oh how people forget that one). It wouldn't create too much of a domino effect/overhaul, and they could still buff the demo sets to more reasonable levels as opposed to offsetting it due to a set that makes it 'obsolete.'
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:32
#83
Without UVs, the Chaos Set is
Without UVs, the Chaos Set is on par with the Wolver sets now. Nothing OP about it.
What you lose in defense, you gain in offense, and i still think the Wolver line has the edge overall.
While the Chaos set has multiple weaknesses across the board, the Wolver sets have none.
So with the Chaos set you're essentially getting an extra VH bonus, in exchange for a weakness to 1) poison, 2) fire, 3) freeze, 4) shock and 5) curse. That's 5 weaknesses. And no status resist bonus.
Conversely, the wolver sets give you a VH bonus, no actual negative weakness, and a status resist bonus as well.
In my eyes, there's finally some parity between the Magic line and the Wolver line.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:37
#84
@Poetry
Yeah, but it's CTR and damage, AND it's universal. How is that anywhere near fair. When the game is so easy now that you barely ever take a hit, why even worry about status?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:48
#85
Shidara's idea seems to be the best here, in my opinion. It wouldn't completely screw over people who've already made it/bought it, and it would still make it a worthy set.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:49
#86
What I think
Chaos set is the only set that makes me not wanna use skolver. Its a little risky, and gives some mad bonuses, yet its OP.
So far its the only CLEAN set that is able to beat wolver sets with maxed out UVs.
I think OOO should remove the CTR Med from it, or at least make it CTR low.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:52
#87
@Poetry
Wolver only gives buffs for one weapon, Chaos gives for all of them.
Now, compare Chaos and Mad Bomber and tell me they're balanced.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 18:57
#88
if they wanted a glass cannon
if they wanted a glass cannon type of playstyle, doesn't that new kat cap fit the bill?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 19:47
#89
In all honesty, I like the
In all honesty, I like the idea of a glass cannon style of play. It is my cup of tea. If we're gonna have Chaos be this much cannon, then I'd recommend its defense be much lower than other sets, primarily because of the huge amount of offensive potential. You're able to have double max for all weapons simultaneously, or double max and VH for swords and guns simultaneously. With SSB, you'd have Universal ASI H, CTR VH, DMG VH. You could then have an ASI H UV and a DMG Trinket and have triple max.
Not to mention that my Voltedge's CTR H and ASI VH combo has been rendered fairly moot with this set. I'm still going to craft chaos, though! Just don't nerf the OFFENSIVE buffs, but nerf the DEFENSIVE area. It's supposed to be a glass cannon. It's supposed to have large offensive potential while being very vulnerable to damage.
Idea: Lower the normal defense a lot. Why? Because that's the one damage type that can be applied to all enemies. If you take that away, people are going to be able to be shredded by attacks that are anything but pure elemental. Does that sound like a good idea?
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:12
#90
The endgame armor to rule them all
The problem is no matter how much the defensive capabilites will be nerfed, if all these offensive bonuses remain we will see a whole lot of endgamers saying "get chaos. It's always the best." It will discourage armor diversity. And trinket diversity. And UVs almost entirely. There won't even be much weapon diversity, as people will probably still just use the same cookie-cutter loadouts, just with more insane boosts.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:06
#91
I do understand what you
I do understand what you mean, but the universality of the Chaos set now makes it a viable option for every type of play style. It's a set that no class really owns, that appeals to anyone willing to play offensively, instead of defensively.
Though now, something needs to be done in order to entice bombers into choosing the bomber-specific Mad Bomber set over the universal Chaos Set.
The way i see it, the Chaos set and the five-star Wolver sets now have parity.
The discrepancy now lies between the Chaos Set and the Mad Bomber set. It does render the Mad Bomber somewhat obsolete, almost.
If the Mad Bomber set is to remain bomber specific, and attractive to bombers, it should lose either the fire weakness or the shock weakness.
One of the reasons i was never really bothered about the Grey Feather not having a damage bonus, was that it has a Status Resist bonus to both fire and shock, which i see as the two most debilitating status effects.
I think by removing either the fire weakness or the shock weakness from the Mad Bomber set, we might be that much closer to having some kind of solution.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:08
#92
I will vouch that a shock
I will vouch that a shock weakness is pretty bad. Having played in shock areas with my heavenly iron set, I've learned what a really bad shock is like. If Mad Bomber lost the shock and poison weakness, it might be pretty good (ish?).
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:17
#93
You people...
Need to come up with solutions for mad bomber that can't be acquired through simple UVs and trinkets.
Not unless you can justify it, of course.
My point being:
1: No additional damage bonus.
2: Status weakness removal and defensive buffs are't enough. You could remove ALL of Mad's weaknesses, and it would sill be infinitely overshadowed by chaos. This would also unbalance the other existing bomber armor, meaning that a rebalance for most, if not ALL bomb related equipment is in order. Anyone can easily get a trinket or UV to counter chaos' two most hated status weaknesses. It also doesn't fit with the "all out bomb the crap out of everything becore it kills me" mantra that mad bomber has.
I do support MSI in this regard, it'd be a unique advantage tha chaos wouldn't be able to touch, but it would have to be noticable to be worth anything, and balancing movement speed is difficult.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:19
#94
This may sound selfish but...
Lots of people like the glass cannon idea and want to nerf the defensive capabilities of chaos. However this could make alot of people who already have it unhappy. And who have already spent their CE on it. Like me.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:43
#95
Why people still saying
Why people still saying Wolwer is overpowered and Bomber or Gunner armours are neglected? It's absolutely untrue...
-Simply put, Skolver gives VH Dmg, but it has an equivalent for bombers with Bombastic Demo and for gunners with Shadowsun.
-Vog gives ASI VH, while for bombers you can get the usefull Volcanic Demo with same status resistances and a CTR VH Bonus and Nameless or Justifier both give VH ASI to your guns.
-Now you've that Mad Bomber, that gives you two damn VH bonuses...which has no equivalent for either swordmen or gunslingers. Now explain how Swordmen are favourited? Please explain?
Just stop with that old saying. The only thing that is unfair for bombers is the lack of variety in defense, they all protect against elemental, but meh, give me the same x2 VH as Mad bomber has on a swordie armour and I don't care if it has neg status resist, or protect against elemental, I sure would wear it anyway.
Now I admit this Chaos is now OP, I think the best option that was proposed is to give it universal ASI+CTR+DMG low per piece. It would be perfectly balanced, and no need to start tweaking every armour in the game to match it. It's the best solution OOO.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 20:47
#96
Havent logged in the check the exact bonuses myself.. but Chaos Set is a free max ctr on everything that is lv 10 and vh dmg now? Sounds balanced to me.. no not really bloody overpowered because there is a reason we experianced t3 player used BTS and Swiftstrikes. We don't get hit often.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 21:12
#97
I quite like this change on Chaos set
Normally , maximize ctr of a lv 10 weapon needs 2 extra ctr med trinket or uv. But most of the ppl dont have enough cr to roll good uv or craft lots of 5* trinket. The updated chaos give ppl chances to feel the fun of using ctr max + dmg very high weapon. I love this updates and hope dont debuff it in the future.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 21:36
#98
A 5* heart trinket isn't that
A 5* heart trinket isn't that out of the way to obtain. Think of it as getting another 5* piece of gear.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 21:53
#99
"Revert CTR to medium and
"Revert CTR to medium and keep the DB VH. That'll be swell."
--Shidara
If something absolutely must be taken away from the Chaos set, this would probably be a sensible option, as it once again makes the Mad Bomber's CTR bonus attractive.
Wed, 01/30/2013 - 21:58
#100
I would place my chips on +1 attack speed, damage, and charge per part for the rerebalanced Chaos. Some salt and vinegar, a few barbecue, maybe a couple ranch.
If we want to talk armor to armor balance Mad Bomber and Chaos are the glass cannons, the former exclusively useful to a specific weapon type while the other is versatile and usable for all three weapon types. This explained how the three weapon specialist sets have their own counterparts while the bomb one is the only one with a glass cannon, but if you were to personally use each of the three weapon styles you would quickly notice huge imbalances in the weapons. Swords and guns have a lot of advantages and are easier to use than bombs. What do? Buff bombs? Of course not, that would mean reworking weapons that were already reworked from beta. Give bombers a little something nice and go home for the day. Year. Two years. Not to mention of the three weapon specialized sets, also explained here, the bomb specialist tree armors all have normal-element defense while the sword and gun trees each have at least one 5* with normal-specialized for each of the three specialized defense types. You can have your sword and gun versions of Mad Bomber when bombs as the entire weapon type are equally viable as your metal sticks and laser pea shooters.
I dug myself out of the grave I made this morning to make this post. Bring me a glass of glowing lizards.
Funny, changing CTR with ASI would still screw bombers. And it will still be better than mad.