Spiral Knights - A MASSIVE problem with adding new levels and rooms into the game

A MASSIVE problem with adding new levels and rooms into the game

26 replies [Last post]

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 20:55

Zopyros-Il

*This isn't a suggestion nor is it something about the testing server. It's about a problem with the game itself that would be better off in General Discussion.*

I'm really glad that there are new levels coming to the Clockworks and I'm sure that the majority of players are as well. But there is a problem with adding in new levels into the Clockworks. Namely that the Arcade is basically dead.

I know it's not completely dead, but come on. There are hardly ever any parties going through in comparison to the amount of parties spamming the boss levels of every Tier. Comparing the payout of running a boss Mission versus running through the Clockworks, there's hardly any contest in which is more profitable.
And sadly, this problem will continue to persist until the matter of the absurd payouts of the boss levels are fixed.

Unless Arcade runs are made as profitable as running through a boss Mission or boss Mission payouts are nerfed, these new levels will hardly see any use. Which is really sad considering all the new enemies being added in, room layouts, and themes that are coming in.
Geez, even after payouts there's still the problem of the Mineral depositing and Gate creation being an unintuitive pain to deal with... and the problem with Missions just being far more prevalent and pushed into the faces of players for the Arcade to be used... and the problem of the Clockworks not really offering much more content than what you'd find in the Missions...
...
...
But let's tackle one problem at a time! OK?... OK!

So!
Can we finally address this idiotic problem with the payouts so the Arcade can see a little more life again?

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 21:04

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

Incentive to do a mission once then go back to the Arcade for Cr.

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 21:27

Byas

That's exactly what I was thinking, sure these changes seems pretty neat, but unless the arcade gets profitable it will be dead content... Which is pretty sad, considering all the work put into it.

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 21:29

Klipik-Forum

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 09:27

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

Trying to keep this on the front page because I'd rather not have OOO work on something actually playable only to have it lost because it was added into the Arcade.

I can't be the only one who's wondering what OOO is planning to do with the Arcade to bring it back to something that is worth playing through. Because at the moment the only reason people go through it anymore are to get the dozen recipes that the Hall of Heroes doesn't stock or because they are honestly tired of looking at the same level over and over again. It's not because it's an alternative to advancing in the game because at this point, you're wasting your time playing the Arcade instead of Missions in terms of payout and in terms of advancing the game.

At the start, creating Gates and diving into the Clockworks was a big deal! There were times people actually cared about what Stratum were created! Now the only reason anyone deposits Minerals is for that extra little cash and those few guilds who try to make Stratum. Hell, with how little is said and done about the Arcade, I bet if I walked up to a fresh Knight and asked them why they're picking up the Minerals in the Clockworks, they WOULDN'T KNOW.

How OOO could take one of the most unique elements of their game (a part that they still advertise profusely, mind you) and make it into an abandoned wasteland and NOT want to do anything about it, is beyond me.
The more and more they update the more it seems like they're trying to change SK into something that it's not... I'm worried...

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 09:49

Daemiax

Im glad im not the only thinking that Zopyros-II. With every little thing they add to the game, they destroy the purpose, the soul of the game even more. If things stay how they are, this game wont even exist in one year from now.

It's not hard to see that. Tho I can't understand, in thousand years, how can most of the so called "veterans", "hardcore players", "true fans" of the game, ignore that and not see it as a problem?

But hey, no worries, keep updating the game, keep ignoring your community OOO, it's your loss, not ours.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 09:52

Klipik

Different incentive to do a mission once and then go to the arcade for more everything.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 11:06

Avantir-Chaosfire

Change Elevator Costs

Why not do this:
-Elevator Use in Arcade: 5 Energy
-Elevator Use in Missions: 10 Energy
-Elevator Use in Arcade Boss: 10 Energy
-Elevator Use in Missions Boss: 15 Energy

Really discourages farming bosses, and encourages farming normal Arcade levels, without making it unrealistic to do missions.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:21

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

@Daemiax
OOO has been on a severely bad trend of ignoring the veteran community in favor of trying to bring in and hold on to newer players. The Guild Hall Update made a reason for quite a few vet players to stay, but unless they keep adding content for the Halls as well as playable content, they're going to lose them too.
And I don't think that all the vet players are ignoring the problems, they're usually the ones coming up with the best solutions. It's just that they're tired of being ignored and so move on to other games. Those of us who stick around still try to change things, but it's kind of a losing battle...

@Klip and OATMONSTER (oops!)
I remember both of those threads. Both had their own problems, but are definitely worth considering.

Personally I think the solution lies in one of two paths:
1- Mission and Arcade integration. You select the Mission, but have to go through the Arcade to get to it. Make more use of the Clockwork Terminals and use the second broken-down elevator behind Basil would lead to the selected Mission for the player. Something like that.

2- Reduced Boss level payouts. Change the densely populated levels by taking out some of the cannon fodder in exchange for some of the heavy hitters from the Danger Missions. An Almirian Crusader replaces a group of Zombles. A Toxilargo rears its ugly head instead of a bunch of Jellies. A Battlepod or another Big Iron instead of a legion of Constructs.

@Avantir-Chaosfire
While that would deter people from doing Missions, that means absolutely nothing to someone with an Elevator Pass. That would only end up hurting everyone who couldn't afford one, pushing away prospective new players and further reinforce our (slowly) growing "pay2win" problems.

It also doesn't solve the inherent problems of the boss levels paying out absurd amounts on top of offering unique equipment, which when already acquired can be sold for an even bigger profit. I'm going to avoid adding too many suggestions here myself so I can avoid being pushed into the Ignored Suggestions forums, but understand that the solution lies with changing the amount of enemies in these levels, not the price of going to them in the first place.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:15

Atacii

...

Um, why are we assuming that OOO won't just add more missions? Also, not all levels in missions are static. The compounds, or whatever the new levels are called, could be included in the random CW generator. So they might even appear in existing missions in place of the more generic levels.

About Arcade. I don't go there, but not because of the awful payout or the low playtime per energy, but because it is mind-numbingly easy.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:19

#10

Klipik

Softhead?

<_<

>_>

I think you meant Oatmonster...

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:35

#11

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop >__>

@Klip
OOPS. Fixed that. I'm picking up a bad habit where I relate the pic to the names and I always get those two mixed up...

@Atacii
Because that's a problem in and of itself. Just making them a Mission doesn't solve the problem of the dead Arcade. Even then, the Mission random algorithm and the Arcade random algorithm generate different rooms.
You are NEVER going to run into a Danger room in a Mission.
You are NEVER going to see awesome statues that spit coins at you in a Mission. You are NEVER going to see a wishing well where you throw Crowns in and get more Crowns back in Missions.
You are NEVER going to see an epic sword stabbed into the ground with a map of the stars that spits out Crowns in Missions.

And I agree that the Arcade is a bit easy, another problem with it admittedly which is just made worse by nerfing the enemies. Ugh, there's just a lot to fix in the game. They really should do that first before giving us crummy UI changes that no one wants.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:36

#12

Narfle

OOO has said repeatedly that the bits they are testing now won't be the only incarnation of the new content. Couple this with the notion that the in-coming battle sprites are supposed to help players with the new mobs, and I think the chances of the new maps and mobs being confined to the arcade is very, very low. Balancing missions and CW to give players more of an incentive to use the arcade is a different problem altogether.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 12:44

#13

Klipik

"Ugh, there's just a lot to fix in the game. They really should do that first before giving us crummy UI changes that no one wants."

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Fix the old before you bring in the new, please.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 13:01

#14

Dmatter

why not just give people who

why not just give people who run missions the difference of their own currently highest crown gain in that level? example: Knight x's highest crown gain for mission x is 1,000 cr. He feels like doing it again and this time gets 1,500cr, thus netting him 500 cr.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 14:30

#15

Thegreatpiggy

Well..........

I know you're point, especially since I can't afford much CE to make a good run in the Arcade. Truthfully, one of the main reasons for this is the problems with CE.

1:Currency
CE, these days, except for most rich people, is used as a currency. I'm not saying this is bad, it's just that lots of times people aren't willing to use crowns as a currency outside the AH. Mainly, this is because of........
2:Hey, price ranging lunatic!
Lots of times (okay, lets get real. ALL THE TIME), CE to crowns ratio is massively changing. It usually goes up, but today I saw it go down. This makes people afraid of wasting crowns and losing profit. Therefore, they decide to, I don't know, get more crowns by farming (AKA not playing Arcade) for backup if they lose profit.
3:Last but not least.........
Alchemy, one word: Alchemy. If you want to alchemize items, you HAVE to use CE to make 3 star and up items. For the first 3-star items, it's not so bad, just 7000-8000 more crowns to use (for CE). But, really, 4 star, 300 more. This, in order to make 22000 (roughly), you have to FARM. FARM: playing boss missions. Unless you have some fancy way to make that much in a good amount of time, you will have a long time to go. I'm just saying people (including me) would rather make better gear than use it to have more playing time.

So, yeah. CE has a lot of flaws, making it so not many people can do an enjoyable run through the arcade without having to stop every 10 missions (not very long), and that's if you don't die.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 14:44

#16

Klipik

@Thegreatpiggy

You don't have to farm boss missions, it's just the fastest way. Running arcade or other missions will just take longer.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 14:52

#17

Thegreatpiggy

@Klipik

Well, generally people want their stuff fast. Just sayin........

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 15:32

#18

Kalaina-Elderfall

So, none of the devs read the

So, none of the devs read the forums. The GMs do, but they don't have any say in the development of the game. We're basically all wasting our time here trying to get somebody who can -do something- to actually listen to us. It's really not that the devs just make a lot of bad game design decisions and refuse to balance their game - they honestly don't know there are any problems. They have tunnel vision developing new features.

So what exactly are we supposed to do? Does anyone have any ideas?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 15:36

#19

Klipik

Not acting hopeless helps, for a start. :P Also, GMs relay some things they read to the devs.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 18:56

#20

Sroell

@The greatpiggy: I do arcade

@The greatpiggy: I do arcade runs to get crowns. It's really fun when you find a team that you work well with. I don't care if it takes longer. The journey's not as short, but it's way more enjoyable! Though it is sad that I have to stop so soon when playing off of mist...

@Kalaina-Elderfall: Do you think that the GMs, like, shun the devs or something?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 19:02

#21

Kalaina-Elderfall

I think the GMs provide a

I think the GMs provide a very, very limited filtered version of what's on the forums to the devs. Things like "oh hey we have this thread about guns being inferior to swords and it's been up for like a month now, let's mention it" and "wow we have a TON of threads suggesting pets, let's mention it." And the devs don't even look at the forums, trusting the GMs to manage the community. I really don't have a problem with the GMs and what they do, but I don't like the system they have in place regarding player feedback. It doesn't seem like anything actually gets through.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:51

#22

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop, Son. Beep Boop.

The interaction between the GMs and the devs is something that I've been curious about lately as well, especially after Eury said that she's making a tally for the complaints aimed at the new UI. A simple TALLY. I really love that Eury actually read through all of out garbage, but if that's all that the devs are going to see, there's a problem. I tried suggesting to her to also send them some of the better arguments about why the new UI, but as per always, I'm not sure if she actually listened. If all they get is a tally for every update because they're too scared to read it themselves, that might explain why things have been going the way they have been.
We need to know if the devs ever actually come down here and read our stuff, especially at an important time like this. They say they do and once in a while make a very random comment, but that barely says anything. What we really need is for them to just sit down and talk with us sometime, like the GMs so kindly did last week or so. That was great! We were all a bit happier and cheerier around here for a while... then the update struck and... well...
Seerusly. All we're asking for is 30 minutes from any of them. Type up something on a lunch break.

Anyways, I'm sticking around for a while until the Battle Sprites come in. After that, if the game is still getting worse, I'm just going to go. I can't take making art and suggestions for a game where the devs just seriously aren't listening. I'd be better off submitting stuff to the Steam Workshop at this point.
UNTIL THEN. I will be critiquing the hell out of them. I just can't stand seeing a game with so much potential get so destroyed by its own updates.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 12:48

#23

Zopyros-Il

Beep Boop

Basically going to say the same thing as I said in my other thread. But let's get on OOO's case about stuff like this. We can't let potential new players come in and see broken things like the Arcade, our unbalanced equipment and our downright broken equipment, and idiotic level design. We need new players as much as OOO does because without them, our game is going to die a lot faster.

Let's bring OOO's attention back to the Arcade. They need to decide whether they still want it around or if they really want their new Missions system to live on. With how both of them are right now, the Arcade is pretty empty and only used for events like this one. It's just not profitable enough or different enough from the Missions.
So either change and fix it up so it's like it was back before Missions, or just get rid of it entirely because it's taking up an entire area of Haven that could be used for something else.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:00

#24

Little-Juances

Arcade T3 costs 500cr and starts at emberlight - d18 . Most champion/vanguard missions are free and start deeper
The same level will drop more money at d24 than d19.

Vanaduke is the bigger problem, but arcade is full of issues.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:13

#25

Fehzor

It won't be lost if they add it to the arcade. Me and about five other people will play it.

And we've "Been on OOOs case" about things like this, but the truth of the matter is that the game is functional, even if it is derpy and even if it is just another crappy "f2p" game based on energy like farmville. If the game is functional, then OOO will have no reason to fix it.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:28

#26

Klipik

If OOO truly doesn't care if their game becomes "just another [redacted]y F2P game" as long as it keeps making them money, I seriously question why any of us are still here.

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A MASSIVE problem with adding new levels and rooms into the game