I didn't forget about skipped levels, the point was to determine the base cost of heating an item without a skipped level. There are way too many unknowns at this point to determine the average cost of heating an item.

[EDIT: Also, I agree that it's a good thing to have a certain amount of grind to hopefully get new players to stick around, but assuming that Jacobey's number of 5* fire crystal drops would hold true across a much bigger sample (let's just say 1 5* fire crystal per t3 level played for simplicity), that's 453 t3 levels that a f2p player would need to play to 100% guarantee fully heating a single 5* item. They might get a skip level, sure, they might purchase additional fire crystals with their crowns, they might only spend the 'mid' number of fire crystals (but only have a 75% chance of making it to the next level), etc., but they still need a base number of 453 5* fire crystals for a fool-proof trip to level 10 on each of their pieces of 5* gear--and that is a HUGE grind. Also, there is no level currently in-game that would somehow guarantee 1 level of heat on a 5* item for each t3 level played, and that means the true cost in play time for a f2p player is likely much, much higher, even with buying additional fire crystals and skipping a few levels on the way up.]

jean, don't forget UVs, and the forge prize box from forging.

I took seven 5* items and heated them entirely and used max fire crystals each time to level them.
All of the numbers discussed subsequently are at max (3x) fire crystal values.

Rewards:
In 63 attempts: 0 forge boxes, 5 +25% heat bonuses, 3 double levels (2 items skipped level 2, 1 skipped level 5).
Each new level gets you an ITEM Power Increase or the standard L5 and L10 power ups.

Fire Crystal Economics:
To level these items, it required 3108 5* fire crystals. Buying those at 50 crystals / 700 energy = 43,512 energy or pretty near $100.

Crystal Increases / Item Level
There doesn`t seem to be a logical reason behind the increased number of crystals required to level.
You jump from 12 to 42 crystals at L5, (presumably because you get a UV here), but then you jump from 48 to 90 at L8. L9 to L10 is 102.
Given that the item power increases are negligible (i.e a L2 sword verses a L4 in battle), making it seem like players are getting a huge boost for leveling their gear is absurd. The only levels that have any effect game wise are L5 and L10.

Reality:
The only way to advance in the game is to level up your gear.
Players have to grind to get heat.
What player is going to be happy with a chance that their gear isn`t going to level up?
Answer - very few. Which means the majority are going to feel compelled to use max crystals every time.
Unless the drop rate for fire crystals keeps pace with players obtaining heat - they are going to feel compelled to buy them.

One of the things that this game advocates is to have a variety of gear, optimized for each environment / challenge.
Requiring fire crystals to level that gear up, just slows down how much gear they can make.

Solution:
1: Just do away with the entire fire crystal concept. It does not improve game play, only complicates it and guaranteed will have the player base flipping tables if it goes live as is.

or

2: Simplify the whole process.
a) Always guaranteed 100% chance of level increase for the minimum / of crystals
b) Simplify or reduce the number of crystals. I would propose keeping the minimum number = to the item level being heated.
This would have a minimum fire crystal cost of 54 or 162 crystals per item in 3x max.
My little adventure with 7 items, using max crystals would have needed 1134 crystals or 15876 energy at supply depot prices, which is still too much.
Even with reducing the number of crystals this low, at minimum it effectively doubles the cost of making a full 5* item.
So - let`s just go with solution 1. Scrap Fire Crystals all together.

Out of all of the things that has been done to this game, this is by far is the worst concept to date.
I personally will not craft another item ever if I have to go through this dog and pony show / cash grab.

36 crystals 5*, 2 sparks, 1 orb 5* from one FSC run. It's about 5 hours in FSC to get enough crystals for full heating 5* item.

First, some testing feedback that doesn't have to do with the new leveling system:

*I like the new icons. They look nice.
*The price of 200 CE for a bundle of 10 Sparks of Life in the Supply Depot is much better than that icky 50ce to buy a single when you're dead.
*I find it interesting that the plant drops are pretty random ... smashing a lot of plants, Sol and I discovered that unlike with enemies, the hearts and crowns you get are NOT the same. Sometimes, we would get different things, other times, only one of us would get something. It seemed to mostly equal out, being random, but we still found it a bit odd and funny.

Here's where Tev goes from being happy and liking things to facepalming and looking to see what other games interest her:

Sol and I have been testing the new leveling scheme today and ... well, there isn't anything nice I can say about it. I've been trying to figure out in what way it makes the user experience better, and I really can't.

*Does it make the game more fun? ... no, the chance of failure when you can only afford a minimum forge because you're f2p and have been unlucky with drops can be disappointing and stressful.

Could we just drop the chance of failure and lessen the chances of getting a UV on minimum or something instead? With the fire crystal system working in the way we're testing it, you have to give more to possibly fail than we're required to give in the current game system to just do our thing without having to worry about it. People are going to feel cheated. Instead of making us pay a little to perhaps get nothing and a lot to perhaps get something extra, I don't think it would be so harsh if we were paying a bit to go about our business, and paying a premium for a chance at something better.

*Does it allow you to utilize the things already in the game in a new and interesting way? ... no, it actually makes heat amps less useful, because if you were collecting enough heat to raise your weapon more than one level on a single game level, you're out of luck.

If whatever heat you would have gotten stays with the weapon and allowed you to do more than one forging on a level if you had the ability, at least we wouldn't feel so cheated of heat (say, I had a heat amp on and headed to T3 with my freshly alchemized Brandish. Under the current system, on a good level I might get it to level three on the first depth. Let me use the forge twice when I get to the arsenal station under this system). Even if I only had that one chance at doing both at once, and had to collect the heat again if I wanted to do it later, at least those who were willing to pay for an extra item to get something heated in a hurry can still use that item to its maximum efficiency.

*Does it cater to both f2p and p2p players? ...I'm concerned about the drop rates of the crystals, especially in T1: it's looking like f2p players may end up being shut out, unable to craft their gear without a lot of grinding (which, face it, gets boring).

Being p2p myself, if I stuck around in the game I'd probably just stop making new equipment; I have most of what I need.

To break it down the increase in crystal needs per level is excessive, especially at higher levels, and the amount of grinding you would have to do to remain f2p at that point is the sort of grinding that gets boring and makes people wander off. I understand that there are crystal prizes that you get for doing missions now, but that only covers part of your first set of weapons if you don't want to risk failure. How many players only want one weapon set? Isn't part of the point of having such variety in equipment to have people try different things in the game so that they'll play longer and spend more on alchemizing different weapon sets?

I know that the point is to make f2p players into p2p players, but you have to remember that a huge portion of your player base happens to be minors, and those minors are not going to be able to convince mom and dad to put money into an online game after these changes any better than they were able to do so before. You'd do better trying to retain those minors until they were old enough to get credit cards and PayPal accounts of their own than alienate them because they can't pay and have limited time to grind. If the drop rate for the crystals increased from what I saw in the testing server, or the escalation of how many you needed as your level increased was toned down, it would be better. Doing both wouldn't upset anyone.

From a design standpoint this was a brilliant move to monetize Spiral Knights in the best possible way. I've seen this done with Maplestory back when I was very young, and from experience I will say that people will shell out all kinds of cash just for a marginal difference in damage. For those of you actually coming against this change, it shouldn't be that important to you. If it is that important to you, then perhaps you'd like to buy a few out of convenience? Everything is available to you now free of charge, and rightfully so the only reason to spend CE now.

@Obsidious

You'll spend less betting on 60% each time from DROPS only, working your way towards max is what the designer wants you to do and is exactly the reason why this system exists where you can push to the max threshold. From personal experience I can tell you that taking a chance from what you receive via drops are the absolutely best way to play. You may not get the maximum dmg output, but you also give yourself a reason to keep playing the game.

@Tevokkia

I'm willing to bet that the average age of the SK player is 19. For those that are too young to have their own means of paying to play, they most likely have the time to waste to grind for hours on end. That's just the way you have to look at things, from the outside looking in.

You guys have to understand that this method of monetization actually extends the "shelf life" of their game. The reason being, now people will take MORE time playing the game to not only craft their 5* equipment--but to be eligible for it as well. This of course offsets the fact that now a player can breeze through 1-0 to 9-2 without any elevator cost--but still roughly paying the same amount (if not less now thanks to the drop system) while providing an overall better experience. Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not, SK is a dying game and maybe they can take the opportunity to rebrand their game and get an audience willing to shell out cash for this. Just be GRATEFUL that this is for useful things like weapons and armor and OOO isn't selling out by charging 5 USD for giving your knight a new haircut.

EDIT: This will be better for the game, I don't mean to sound like a complete tool but a year from now you'll be enjoying what feels like a different product...

I've already spent several hundred dollars on this game most of which was for flashy cosmetic items that go on the market for an absurd amount of CE. Trust me, this is fair as far as a CE sink goes.

DOUBLE EDIT: One last thing...now a level 10 item means something instead of having to take heat from 3 other players and going from 1-10 in one floor. It's all about the internet prestige guys, you'll enjoy this when it happens.

> DOUBLE EDIT: One last thing...now a level 10 item means something instead of having to take heat from 3 other players and going from 1-10 in one floor. It's all about the internet prestige guys, you'll enjoy this when it happens.

No, it means that you have to grind levels to get heat, get fire emblems and THEN find Arsenal Station to level up them. I don't know about you, but I want my gear be at full power as soon as possible. There is no fun in using weapons that not only low-power, but also crippled by the fact that they not Level 10. And that no good!

@neo: I guess we'll see. I accept the fact that it's going to be implemented, and I'm not going to rage and quit before seeing how the community adapts to it, but I really don't see it helping to keep more players around--the jump from 4* to 5* was already a huge barrier for players who enjoyed the game enough to keep playing that long, and now the grind will be much, much longer. I would anticipate SK having a better retention rate for new players, who won't have the learning curve of managing their mist, elevator costs, etc., but that doesn't mean that more of them are going to stick around long enough to grind to 5*, let alone maxing out their 5* gear once they have it.
All that having been said, I would be much more ok with the change if they just did away with the chance for an item to not succeed in leveling up and scaled back the amount of fire crystals needed for forging.

@egpnd: No one has been queued for either LD or BN when I've been on, but I would guess that yes, revs will probably work the same way in PvP (minus the emergency rev, as you mentioned).

[small EDIT: 48-hours later and the forge box still hasn't appeared in my inventory. I'm assuming they're currently removed for fixing, but anyone else actually succeed in opening one and willing to tell us the contents?]

Again, this is all to keep you guys playing the game. What better way to add false replay value then to have you repeatedly level up not only your Sprites but your items as well? The failure rate is modest for a minimum investment, it isn't too bad. The current system allows for someone to craft a weapon and an hour later have it fully upgraded to 5*. Under the new system, a player will be spending alot more time with their weapon...forming a bond with it. Like Nick said, this all adds to the aesthetics of Spiral Knights. It isn't any different from the scrolling system in Maplestory, it's a tried and true method. I hope you guys have some nice weapons unbound before the patch, because the stock of your current items will go up.

If people die too much because of lag, the problem we have to fix is the lag.

I love what you guys are doing with this update; it is all coming together much better than I could ever have anticipated. There is one thing that concerns me and a large portion of the spiral knights community; "Why are you completely removing the ability to revive downed party members by giving them 1/2 of your health?" After giving this much thought, I have come to the realization that this has both a bad and a good side to it.

• The Good: It forces people to be better skilled/equipped as a party for the upcoming levels.
• The Bad: From what I understand, the reason for not being able to revive downed party members was to make it so that there was absolutely no reason not to go in a party. I can see how this is supposed to work, but from what I can gather this basically removes all teamwork from any party, and turns it in to a giant free for all.
• The Ugly: There are people on both sides of the fence, and even some in the middle; you can never make them all happy.

As the developers you are left with the important/difficult decision of whether or not this happens; my hat is off to you because I realize how tough that is. By adding the difficulty selector, you have quite ingeniously made the game much more appealing to all of your audience at once. Though there will still be those that rejoice, and those that despair over the loss of ½ health revives. By going a step further and changing the mechanics for each difficulty level, you could create a median that would satisfy everyone. Simply modify the mechanics of each difficulty level ever so slightly:

• Normal Difficulty: Allow players to give ½ of their health to a downed party member.
• Advanced Difficulty: Permit only one donation of a ½ health revive per person per level.
• Elite Difficulty: Do not grant any reviving of downed party member via the ½ health method.

This model is ideal for the masses, and will certainly be the best alternative for the community. With so much change as it is, there will be a multitude of mixed feelings, and implementing this idea will undoubtedly calm that sea of emotions.

[Edit] The above statement has been retracted, but left here for archiving purposes, due to the awesomeness of the developers.

I absolutely _detest_ the new loot system. It's HORRIBLE. Not only do we lose loot, we waste a lot of time running around making sure we haven't missed anything. I don't really care much about this new update. Pets are fine, sure. New crafting system? I can deal with that if I must. New reviving system? Bad for the pros that die maybe 3 times in 30 depths. What else? Oh yeah. New UI is alright, I don't mind it that much.. But OOO, please, please, PLEASE get rid of this horrible loot system. That's all I want. D:

Revives and Loot Sharing

I feel the new system takes away from the idea of working as a party. Although all members of the party get to see loot on their own screens now, it is really inconvenient for every person to go collect another party member's kill.

I'm also in agreement with my friend's idea that although we can use a Spark of Life to revive a fallen party member, we are using sparks up and they can be costly to buy back. Sparks are more of a commodity and can create tension in the group on who should help revive. Whereas, sharing half life made more sense in a sense that members work as a team to complete missions.

If Sega/Three Rings intended to make Spiral Knights more attractive by making elevators free, the other changes they've made are really frustrating and unattractive. Overall, I have to say they will just lose support again.

I didn't even know I could post here..
So, I'm gonna list some facts here.

I've seen Aphrodite saying the feedback they listen to in advance comes from testers (http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/84558).
I've seen the general forums flooded with negative reactions after practically each update.
There are still bugs to clean up after each update.

Now, I don't consider any of these to be 'bad' but it makes me wonder:

Either the testers are composed of a majority of people that don't represent the general forums.
Or, their input isn't as valued as it should be. This thread for example represent some of the negative reactions seen on General, yet they are posted here before release.
I understand OOO having final say, as it's their vision of the game that will be imposed at the end but why even have testers then?

Same goes for bugs: When given more time, could a greater percentage of bugs be discovered before release?

I'm not criticizing, I'm asking.
(disclaimer: I'm not a tester, nor a paying player. I would if I could, but at this time it isn't viable for me)