Spiral Knights - PSA: Wolver and Gunslinger are the only good crafting lines for starting, all others are noobtraps

PSA: Wolver and Gunslinger are the only good crafting lines for starting, all others are noobtraps

19 replies [Last post]

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 11:47

Warp-Master

Exhibit A: The gap in actual damage reduction between defensive and offensive armor is negligible
Exhibit B: Interrupting enemies with your armor-augmented damage means that they won't attack you
Exhibit C: Monster AI is so inadequate that it can unambiguously be described as lobotomized, so you shouldn't be getting hit anyway
Exhibit D: Despite being offensive armor, the Spiral Demo set isn't worth the trouble because pre-T3 bombs are pathetic and in T3 Chaos does everything it (and every other armor line) does better

Long story short: Get Wolver (or Gunslinger if you like Alchemers) for your first set, you'll learn to dodge. Don't bother with anything else until you've been to the Core a few times and have resources to spend on armors like Chaos that only get good at 5*. Got something else at 2*? Vendor it. Already committed to an inferior line? Upgrade it since you're stuck with it, then start on Wolver.

*activates flame shield*

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 12:04

Little-Juances

Effectivity vs fun.

Some people enjoy beating monsters wearing a jelly suit and a spur, even if having wolver with a brandish and autogun solves problems 5x faster.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 12:10

Khamsin

Most cost effective 3* inventory

Helmets:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dusker_Cap
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Elemental_Hood

Armor:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dusker_Coat
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Elemental_Cloak

Shields:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Scary_Skelly_Shield
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Horned_Owlite_Shield

Swords:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Nightblade
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Fireburst_Brandish
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Twisted_Snarble_Barb

Gun:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Kilowatt_Pulsar

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 15:34

Skold-The-Drac

If this is the case...

Shouldn't they just use elemental cloak first? Learn to play and get the OP set all in one run.
Your brandishes and pulsars make the game a joke in their own right when used effectively, you could just fly by on Combuster line and an autogun line, getting a swiftstrike/pre-chaos set would just emphasize the dominance.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:36

Battlegrinder

@Warp-Master

Point D really only applies to Chaos vs Mad, all the other bomb armors are very useful in T3. Granted, they're not at chaos level, but then nothing is.

I also wouldn't say that all other armors are worthless. For example, Dragon Scale, Heavenly Iron, Salamander, and Mercurial are all perfectly valid T3 sets. Honestly, I think Skelly, Jelly, and Grey Feather are really the only sets that you should avoid crafting.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:51

Bopp

oh dear

I strongly disagree with Battlegrinder on this one. Skelly and Grey Feather at least make sense as defensive armors. Dragon Scale makes sense only in extremely special situations --- basically Compound 42. Other than Deadly Virulisk, the Salamander variants make no sense. For example, Volcanic Salamander defends against elemental, but gives you an offensive bonus against slimes, which inflict piercing? Crazy. Heavenly Iron isn't bad on offense, but it's not great either, and it comes with a strangely bad mix of status defenses.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 19:59

Glacies

@Bopp: And to add:

Volcanic Salamander has the same properties as Vog Cub and close to Nameless:
7.4 Units of Normal Defense when Maxed
6.5 Units of Elemental Defense when Maxed
-6 Units of Fire Resistance with both Volcanic and Vog Cub
-6 Units of Freeze Resistance with Nameless

-Vog Cub has Attack Speed Increase Swords: Very High
-Nameless has Attack Speed Increase Guns: Very High
-Volcanic Salamander has Damage Bonus vs Slime Very High

Their offensive counterparts easily outweighs Volcanic Salamander here, the damage bonus is for 1/6th of existing families. Providing an offensive bonus for 17% of the entire game. That, and like Bopp mentioned, doesn't even resist it. Skolver and not only resists piercing but it provides the same damage bonus and is universal. The only pro here is that it's universal for all weapon-types, not just a single one.

Offensive counterparts again are universal with Swords and Guns (respectively) as the Attack Speed Increase is not limited to 17% of the game. It can be used anywhere you choose, and I believe in time, will outweigh the damage bonus because of Damage Per/Second.

Then Arcane Salamander provide 7.4 units of Elemental Defense, but provides Damage Bonus vs Slime and Beast Low. This raises it from 17% to 34% of the entire game... But with much less damage than what could be provided by the Wolver Line or Gunner-Line. DPS or even Damage Bonus: Very High. And even then, by the time you reach it, you'd most likely have Chaos or a piece of Wolver/Gunner-Gear.

Deadly Virulisk suffers the same fate with Skolver and Justifier:
7.4 Units of Normal Defense when Maxed
6.5 Units of Piercing Defense when Maxed
-6 Units of Poison Resistance with Deadly Virulisk
-6 Units of Freeze Resistance with Skolver
-6 Units of Stun Resistance with Justifier

-Deadly Virulisk provides Damage Bonus vs Slime Very High. Same as Volcanic.
-Skolver provides Damage Bonus Swords: Very High.
-Justifier provides Attack Speed Increase Guns: Very High.

Poison has its pro here but again is easily outweighed by Universal Damage bonus. You would equal to about the base damage bonus without the Damage Bonus being applied. Yet its universal and most monsters inflict Moderate to Strong Poison anyway, meaning that Deadly Virulisk would still suffer from the same effects, just not as long. Attack Speed Increase will also help a lot.

Azure Guardian suffers too, having only 8 Units of Normal Defense with the same amount of Piercing Defense as both Skolver and Deadly Virulisk, yet doesn't provide a single piece of Status Resistance.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 12:12

Warp-Master

Shouldn't they just use elemental cloak first? Learn to play and get the OP set all in one run.
Except then you're crippled pre-5* compared to if you had gotten an offensive line first. By crafting Wolver/Gunslinger you get benefits both in the early game and in the late game.

Point D really only applies to Chaos vs Mad, all the other bomb armors are very useful in T3. Granted, they're not at chaos level, but then nothing is.

I also wouldn't say that all other armors are worthless. For example, Dragon Scale, Heavenly Iron, Salamander, and Mercurial are all perfectly valid T3 sets. Honestly, I think Skelly, Jelly, and Grey Feather are really the only sets that you should avoid crafting.
Chaos isn't just useful for bombers; it's useful no matter what weapons you have because its bonuses are universal. The other bomb armors only benefit bombers. Of the other lines you mention, only Mercurial hasn't been proven pointless by Bopp and Glacies above. The only benefit of Mercurial is its MSI Low, which can be replicated at T3 with Swift Steps. Yes, MSI Very High is neat, and I concede that if you want to play with speeds like that Mercurial (or Mercurial Demo, if you're into that and somehow think it's work a Shadow Lair expedition) is your only option. But I suspect that most people are going to end up SANICing into hazards and getting themselves killed with a loadout like that.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 12:44

Battlegrinder

You have some good points

@Bopp
Skelly and Feather are OK, but given their lack of offensive power, I'm not sure they're a good choice. I've yet to see anyone wearing them except as a costume piece. I'd forgotten about a few of the points you raised regarding the other sets, but I still think they're viable in T3. Some of them have a sharper learning curve than others, but overall they're still workable. For example, Dragon Scale is a decent set for some gunner play styles, since it protects against 2/3rds of the ranged attacks in this game, and provides a damage bonus against beasts to compensate for their ability to evade gunfire. It's not as strong as a gunslinger line set, but if you have trinkets and UVs, that gap can close.

My main point was to show that other armor sets are viable alternatives to wolver and gunslinger, not that any of the sets I mentioned are equal to those two. It really depends on your tactics and playstyle.

@Warp-Master
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say about bomber armor. What I was trying to say was that armor sets like Volcanic Demo are still usable in T3, since you can boost your bombs significantly without sacrificing defense like you do with chaos. You can't use other weapons as well, but if you're a pure bomber that won't hurt you much.

Also, since mercurial builds up its MSI boost so slowly, won't you have time to get used to the increased speed before you get up to VH?

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 16:50

Arkate

@ Bopp. Except then you

@ Bopp. Except then you realize that Grey-Feather has barely more defense than Chaos.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 17:51

#10

Alice-In-Pyroland

I do want to interject and

I do want to interject and say grinder is technically right; they're absolutely viable in Tier 3. Any player that's even just mildly decent should be able to get by in Advanced with absolutely any set of gear provided it's rank-appropriate, although it's sort of a pointless interjection in this thread. The original post isn't suggesting that you can't get by in those sets, just that they're completely worthless comparative to the infinitely better offensive choices.

That being said I mainly wanted to respond to this statement;

Yes, MSI Very High is neat, and I concede that if you want to play with speeds like that Mercurial (or Mercurial Demo, if you're into that and somehow think it's work a Shadow Lair expedition) is your only option. But I suspect that most people are going to end up SANICing into hazards and getting themselves killed with a loadout like that.

For bombers, MSI is by far one of the best things in the game, and the absolutely best bombing set doesn't involve using Chaos at all; you should be using some combination of Mercurial Demo, ideally a Black Kat Cowl, Swift Steps II, and then trinkets and unique variants to hit CTR Max, MSI V-High, and as high a damage bonus as possible.

I will concede, this is completely end-game bomber stuff, entirely for skilled players and not information that's really worthwhile in a thread directed mainly at new players, but it's false to state Chaos is the be all end all set for bombers, it's just the best up until you're good enough and capable of making a good MSI set -Given the cost investment on top-

On an entirely unrelated note though, whilst it's inconvenient due to needing to level and upgrade lines, some mention should probably be given to the Cyclops Cap and Fencing Jacket, which are not only supremely easy to attain, but provide better bonuses than the pre-5* Wolver & Gunslinger lines. At least up until 4* you can use them while farming for crystals/orbs and the like, since you don't really need to actually level your main set substantially until the 4-5* transition.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 19:40

#11

Popoixd

GREY FEATHER 4 EVER

Battle grinder your making me cry D: I'm using Grey feather A LOT And I think thats when you want a elemntal defensive armor , dont want to die when you rn in fire because of lag in FSC and want to burn to ash chaos and each little wolver piece, its a good armor. It's give you pretty good elemental defense and shock and fire resist.

/e Popoixd don't like chaos and wolver.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 20:44

#12

Bopp

to clarify

I'm not saying that Dread Skelly and Grey Feather are the most desirable armors in the game. I always advise people to choose offensive armors instead. But I was arguing against the idea, enunciated in post #4, that they're somehow terrible armors that make no sense. Among the non-offensive armors, they're pretty nice.

Except then you realize that Grey-Feather has barely more defense than Chaos.

I don't understand what you mean. Chaos has -2 on multiple important statuses, and Grey Feather has +4 on the two most important statuses. People spend massive amounts of money to get UVs on Chaos that make it halfway as protective as Grey Feather. (And they should, because Chaos is so offensively powerful.) The difference in protection is enormous.

Sat, 10/12/2013 - 08:44

#13

Arkate

Statuses aside, the damage

Statuses aside, the damage taken is sometimes identical.

Sat, 10/12/2013 - 14:22

#14

Bopp

statuses aside

That's the point. You don't put statuses aside; the most important statuses are more important than damage protection. (This is a statement of opinion, but I've seen many other advanced players on these forums express this opinion, so it's not just me.) I'm talking about shock and fire. I'm also talking about freeze, although freeze armor doesn't actually seem to help against freeze very much in practice.

Mon, 10/14/2013 - 07:45

#15

Momofuku

Isn't it sad that bomber armor gets no love in T1-T2?

._.

Bad enough that devilites attack fast, but there aren't any readily available Shadow Defense armors for Bombers.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 16:31

#16

Yoggs

I'd mostly just like to thank

I'd mostly just like to thank everyone for their comments in this thread, as they drove me to get Wolver for my first crafted set. I love it, makes things so much simpler when I just 3 shot everything with Brandish :P

Also: HI BATTLEGRINDER!

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 08:00

#17

Battlegrinder

@Yoggs

Hi! Welcome to the forums.

Mon, 10/28/2013 - 19:44

#18

Cinoa

Shucky darns

My first 5* armor set was dread skelly... I made it cause I thought it looked cool, now I realize the wolver line is better. I make very bad choices in this game :/

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 02:30

#19

Kamishinlnoyari

Noup.

Do you really think that you need bonuses to defeat a weak, nerfed monster with your super OP weapons? Wolver/Chaos set+Acheron (or any Brandish) <- no offense, but isn't that noob_ish? It's a nice set if you're a P2P newbie who bought their 5* weapons directly from the Supply depot and has no experience in the game... Being OP in a game like SK will just make you quit sooner than you expect.
OP and not OP.-> Imagine that you have only 2 minutes to eat the most delicious piece of Lasagne (OP) or that you have 20 minutes to eat the same piece (not OP). The piece is SK. When you kill everything in 2 hits (with OHKOron), you have only 2 minutes to eat (have fun in SK) the piece of Lasagne and you can't really feel its holy taste BUT when you use gear that's not OP, you will have enough time to feel the taste and relax.
I have a Skolver coat, an Acheron and a DA because in the past I wanted to be OP too (guided by friends). Now I don't use them in PvE unless I don't have enough time or DON"T REALLY WANT TO PLAY (that's called grinding). But now, after OOO buffed OHKOron, I will start using it... against Fiends and Undead ^^

Although there's a major problem with this... the clone mind. At least 80% of all PvE players are clones and when you're in a party of four you will hardly do any damage to the monsters, while the others will beat them fast (I've tried grinding FSC with my CIV-it's madness when all party members have Brandishes....).
Aand we (finally) reach the point when I give up using underused weapons ->PvP. The clone logic has completely taken it. Strikers, Strikers, Strikers who run into bombs because they think they're immortal and although they're right. How can a Nitronome damage a clone with 2 Heart pendants? Most "PROs" there actually can't even kill a Rock jelly without pendants. PvP is the reason why I keep my clone gear.

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PSA: Wolver and Gunslinger are the only good crafting lines for starting, all others are noobtraps