Spiral Knights - Why I believe Sudaruska and Triglav to be better than Gran Faust and Divine Avenger

Why I believe Sudaruska and Triglav to be better than Gran Faust and Divine Avenger

59 respuestas [Último envío]

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 14:49

Fehzor

Sudaruska is far better than DA/GF due to one thing: a working charge attack. DA/GF's charges may be better, but they don't work when near a wall, and because of that make the sword they are on almost entirely worthless. No one said it, and most will not agree with me, but it is an observation I have observed in both my own gear choices and the gear choices of almost every "new" experienced knight.

Given that brandish lines outclass DA/GF in terms of both costs and damage, the only reason to bring a heavy sword is if you're gunning and need a sword to push things back- or are supporting a strategy involving one. This isn't to say that you can't use them in place of a brandish, or that everyone will agree, as some may find DA/GF to fit their taste better. However, it is to say that when used properly, brandish lines will fair better than DA/GF.

The damage difference between DA and Sudaruska is negligible on neutral targets-
If DA hits for 250 damage, and Sudaruska hits for 240, it will take 25 hits of DA to make a difference at all, even when you combine it with the fact that you may be hitting more often due to DA swinging faster. Lets say it takes 3.5 seconds for you to swing DA twice and 3.7 seconds for you to swing sudaruska twice. That means that if you are hammering away tanking damage, you will do a lot more with DA. But you don't just sit there tanking damage. You move around, and you dodge things and you attack sparingly. The actual attacks per minute is going to be perhaps 4 of 5- a number that will not be that significantly different. Now, given that the difference between the two won't make that much of a difference (a bullet going toward you must hit you exactly 3.6 seconds in to make a difference, the chances are unlikely), then the actual difference in attack speed and only differnence in DPS is negligible. This of course changes on a specialized target- but again, it doesn't matter: DA is inferior to brandish lines in terms of damage and crowd control due to its unreliable charge making specialized damage a moot point.

Similarly- "Which is better, Sudaruska or Triglav"- Sudaruska pushes things away reliably; triglav you must be careful with. Triglav is much better if you are attacking with shivermist buster as the keystone of your strategy- Triglav can be used to repeatedly smash them with less chance of breaking the ice;

There are a few exceptions to this, namely-
-ICMF is much better for DA as the twins can be OHKO'd by DA charges
-If using max curse resistance with CTR trinkets, GF could become incredibly strong. There are few places where this is likely to occur however-

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 14:58

Derpules

What.

"they don't work when near a wall, and because of that make the sword they are on almost entirely worthless."

Uh. . . don't use them near walls? I have not had much of a problem with this.

"Lets say it takes 3.5 seconds for you to swing DA twice and 3.7 seconds for you to swing sudaruska twice. That means that if you are hammering away tanking damage, you will do a lot more with DA. But you don't just sit there tanking damage."

Faster swing also = safer shielding and easier dodging.

"-If using max curse resistance with CTR trinkets, GF could become incredibly strong. There are few places where this is likely to occur however-"

1) You don't need double curse max. 5 points of resistance (Max + Low) sufficies to limit the self-curse to one weapon.

2) This still doesn't make the GF "incredibly strong" by any stretch of the imagination. The charge still takes forever. You're usually better off just hitting the target normally.

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 16:15

Fehzor

@Derp

1. You take a step backwards whenever you use it making it a problem in some situations. Being able to use charge attack near walls is also large advantage; yes you can use it just fine, but it won't be 'the best' like it was. Keep in mind that you won't need as much crowd control from a distance as you will likely be using guns either. The DA charge was best used by cornering yourself first as well- not being able to lure enemies into grouping up to attack you in a tighter area is another large disadvantage.

2. I addressed why both lines generally speaking about as safe as each other in the same paragraph you quoted from.

Specifically-
"Now, given that the difference between the two won't make that much of a difference (a bullet going toward you must hit you exactly 3.6 seconds in to make a difference, the chances are unlikely)", meaning that there is a very specific timeframe that must be followed for anything to make a difference.

3. I didn't say you needed double curse max; just that you need max curse resistance and lots of CTR. Also keep in mind that curse can be a OHKO for many enemies including the dreaded healers- making it viable for fighting things it is not good against provided these things have hindered movement.

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 16:33

Bopp

response

Fehzor, I generally admire the comments you post around here, so I had high hopes for this thread. In short, your argument is: DA/GF is pointless because Brandishes are better. You don't make any clear statement about whether Sudaruska/Triglav is also pointless.

You raise some points that I disagree with, but which I can't refute without actually making measurements. For example, DA does a lot of damage when comboing into a crowd of zombies in FSC, and it "gathers" the monsters so that other players can hit them too. But I haven't actually measured this relative to DA charges and Brandish charges recently. And of course it would depend on the level of ASI and CTR. But I must admit that I usually play with Combuster, and that I never felt that the Brandish charge buff was warranted.

Your dismissal of the DA as "almost totally worthless" because of the charge cancellation when standing against a wall is truly unfair. An experienced DA user gets accustomed to this limitation. I cannot remember even thinking about it as I spammed DA charges in tight rooms in FSC.

DA/GF is about as fast at ASI+2 as Sudaruska is at ASI+6. It's not a small ASI difference; it's the kind of thing that people strive for in optimizing their loadouts. The speed difference lets you shield, dodge, etc. faster, so your defense is better. It's not just about DPS.

Edit: Much of this was already said by Derpules. And you are definitely not the first person to make the argument that DA is bad because it's charge is unusable; see for example post #40 here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/41144.

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 17:38

Flists

"The damage difference

"The damage difference between DA and Sudaruska is negligible on neutral targets"
I don't know the difference in numbers, so this is quite possible. However, to maximize efficiency, swordsmen should use their heavy swords whenever it would give them the biggest advantage. So I think much of the time, you would use DA/GF in a situation where it would give you a damage bonus advantage, in which case it would probably outclass the Suda/Trig.

Also, you don't compare the Suda/Trig to the brandishes or even other normal damage, "light" class swords (Levi?).

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 19:10

Fehzor

@Bopp/Flists

DA/GF's role is basically as a primary damaging weapon, whereas sudaruska's role is as a side weapon and triglav's role is as a niche weapon.

Primary damaging weapons are like your bread and butter; side weapons are like the support to make them work. Niche weapons are highly situational and add flavor to the game if you collect enough of them (some niche weapons have a huge number of situations making them viable however; eg electron vortex). Normal damage is good because there will be no surprises, and this makes it good for a side weapon.

If I bring an umbra driver to go with my acheron on a gremlin level, I'd have 2 primary damaging weapons. If I encountered a howlizter on that level, then I'd be at a loss- meaning that while I could probably kill everything but the turrets with acheron alone, I now have to waste time+effort on killing the turrets inefficiently.

If I have 4 weapon slots, I could populate 2-3 of them with primary weapons that I plan to use on the "big enemy" of the level, and then leave one for another damaging type. For instance, if I were to make my focus on being a swordie-
-Acheron (Primary weapon of my specialized type for this level; primary damage type)
-graviton vortex (Niche weapon; used in synergy with acheron to take out gremlins)
-Glacius (Primary weapon type for figthing the obvious secondary type of monster on the gremlin levels, constructs)
-Valiance (Side weapon; used for switches and the off chance of "Oh no! A random enemy that I have no idea what to do with!")

So while DA/GF would easily fit into that as a primary damaging weapon that you were bringing to use as much as possible, sudaruska fits in as a side weapon for gunners.

You asked about why I didn't compare Sudaruska to levi/other normal swords- this is because sudaruska has knockback. If I'm a gunner, this can be useful. When crowds get near me, I can switch to Suda and move them back. If I'm using alchemers and I'm stuck with a lumber coming at me, I'll want the knockback from the charge to send it flying back, making it better than cutters. If I'm stuck running away from slags in FSC with my alchemers, then I'll want to be able to use the normal to move them back just enough so that I can smack them some more with my guns. Leviathan is much better if you're bombing, while cutter is a niche weapon that relies on enemies getting frozen/shocked/cornered in order to be more viable than other things. Lastly, winmillion is never viable. It falls under the category of 'Garbage', meaning that no matter what situation you bring it into it, it will suck. Hard.

Disclaimer: Like I said before, you don't have to use shiver to make cutter viable, and you are allowed to bring leviathan with you if you want. These are subtle observations; not huge truths in the universe.

And one last point- I suppose that Flists is correct in that you could use both a DA and a brandish if you were a swordy to maximize your damage; however it wouldn't be entirely necessary and when forced to decide which one would rather have, brandishes are more likely to win out. In this scenario bringing a bomb like electron vortex may also prove more useful than bringing both DA and the brandish.

Sáb, 07/21/2012 - 19:34

Flists

If DA/GF is a primary weapon,

If DA/GF is a primary weapon, and Suda/Trig is niche, then you wouldn't compare the two. If we're talking about gunners that want a useful backup sword, then even I would suggest bringing a Suda or a Levi and not a DA/GF. They're useful in different situations... You can't say one is just better than the other unless you're comparing them on equal ground (IE both as primaries or both as secondaries)

And that's not what I meant when I was talking about maximizing damage. I meant that, for example, if you were facing Gremlins, given the choice between GF and Suda, to maximize damage you would bring a GF because of the damage bonus. This is assuming you are using them as primary damage weapons, which I do not believe you made clear in your first or second posts.

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 08:22

Fehzor

Its looking at things from a balance perspective; people keep wanting sudaruska to get buffed due to the fact that it does the dreaded normal damage, and because it does slightly less damage+swings slightly (or a good deal) slower.

It is plausible to compare any 2 weapons together in such a fashion, and there are 2 ways that I can see to do this-
-Usefullnes per costs; Performance in its role based on cost
-Usefullness regardless of costs; Performance in its role

And my point is that Sudaruska is better for its role than DA/GF are at their roles.

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 08:48

Sppw

-Acheron (Primary weapon of

-Acheron (Primary weapon of my specialized type for this level; primary damage type)
-graviton vortex (Niche weapon; used in synergy with acheron to take out gremlins)
-Glacius (Primary weapon type for figthing the obvious secondary type of monster on the gremlin levels, constructs)
-Valiance (Side weapon; used for switches and the off chance of "Oh no! A random enemy that I have no idea what to do with!")

Why would you even need that valiance?

Acheron-Gremlins
Vortex-Synch with Acheron/Glacius
Glacius-For constructs

Slime appears?-Acheron
Gremlin?-Acheron
Beast(not that it comes)-Acheron
Fiend-Glacius
Construct-Glacius
Undead?-Glacius

As your last weapon you can have better weapons for the task of a decon zone.

Venom Veiler for menders
Senteza for demos
for exapmple

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 10:02

Flists

And my point is that

And my point is that Sudaruska is better for its role than DA/GF are at their roles.
I would have to say that this is a matter of opinion. All else equal, I still believe DA/GF is better than Suda, but when comparing them the way you're doing it is much more difficult to objectively look at things. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But I'm still interested in seeing what everyone else has to say about this.

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 11:21

#10

Fehzor

@Sppw

Undead turrets that are at a distance and require a gun; charge can be used to push menders and other enemies out of the way to attack them; bullets can be used to trigger flinching

And you're right, that was a bad example.

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 12:36

#11

Il-Mono-Il

Isn't DA/GF suppose to be better than Suda/Triglav because they are obtained as token rewards? (btw Triglav - KC)
I think that DA/GF MUST be better than HoH wep(Suda) in prim. DMG, at least...

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 12:58

#12

Derpules

@Fehzor

1) You actually need Curse Max + Low to use the GF charge semi-safely. And it's still not worth it. I use it all the time, for fun. (CTR Max is not enough to make the charge less than stupid slow.)

2) As Bopp points out, that small difference in swing speed is worth a lot of CE/cr worth of UVs (and of course the gap can never be closed). It's a significant difference.

Dom, 07/22/2012 - 13:03

#13

Serell

It's a very significiant difference.

Sudaruska is just unusable without a swiftstrike buckler. Unless you got UVs.

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 00:07

#14

Sppw

@Fehzor

Its true you can have better things than a valiance. If you really want a handgun for undead turrets (AKA howlitzers) get a Polaris. Other good handguns that could be more useful than a valiance could be:

Polaris
Biohazard
Umbra Driver
Supernova
Pepperbox(you proved it with your amazing pepperbox vid)

Other things to consider

AoA
Dark Retribution
Graviton Vortex [(combined with Glacius Charge/VT) replacing Electron Vortex]

Yes you can use a Valiance but these weapons are better for this task than a valiance.

So there are far better weapons for a task of a decon zone(and anywhere else really)

Back to DA/GF vs Suda

Lets put you in perspective.

Saying this means the DA/GF will be buffed beyond what is reasonable thus making it the sword(s) that everybody will go to-

Demise of the brandishes
WRH is knocked out of the way

Do we really want/need this. It will become what it was before the brandish buff. 80% users DA/GF
18% Brandishes 2% WRH from the current(reasonable) 45% DA/GF,40% Brandishes ,15% WRH.

Not good.

Part of this is my opinion,part of it is fact.

¬ Sppw

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 00:05

#15

Sppw

I dont feel like editing.

Also at the top Bopp is right.I quote him:
In short, your argument is: DA/GF is pointless because Brandishes are better.

If so this is my reply to your argument:
Sudarsuka/Triglav is pointless beacause Leviathan Blade is better.

Why?
Beacause the charge can potentially do more damage on enemies and the normal attacks are much faster,thus safer to use.

Then you see why your argument is void. Beacause the same can be said elsewhere and you must provide a a reason why x is better or y is better.

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 01:31

#16

Skold-The-Drac

Are you all missing a major thing here?

You're all going after Fehzor hard and fast here. Here's the thing, while I don't necessarily agree with Fehzor at all points... I can think of a few ways the Trig and Suda are beautiful in their own rights.
And you're forgetting the topic subject of this thread. He says that these are reasons he BELIEVES Trig/Suda are better.

A main way a trig/suda can be better than the other two... is that they are 2* weapons... if you're curious as a newer player about heavy weapons... this sword is how you START your path.

Another main way is that trig/suda wielders can switch to a DA/GF and be about as skilled if not more skilled than the person that ran with either line (da/gf) for longer. Because they start off calibrated for a slower heavy sword. They can quickly pick up a DA/GF and start bashing the crap out of whatever they like, sans ASI, I know some people who appear to have gotten a touch too attached to ASI.

Yet another way, is in the kb of these swords... Suda is beautiful because it can both kb and stun the mob, a gunner loves when the enemy is far away and can only hobble to them, Triglav is beautiful because on it's second swing it can freeze an enemy, a nice thing to use when attacking a mob and you wanna single out monsters.

And honestly, more oft than not, those that actually took the time to make a triglav and/or sudaruska and readily wield it through anything, can be friendly and effective in close to any party.

As weapons... these are not the best things ever... but as an icon? These things can tell you more than most the swords in the game about their wielder.

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 09:31

#17

Flists

I also agreed that Trig/Suda

I also agreed that Trig/Suda have good points, but I don't think they are superior to DA/GF. And all the things listed here are our opinions on why we believe that DA/GF>Trig/Suda, just like Fehzor voiced his opinion on the opposite.

And honestly, more oft than not, those that actually took the time to make a triglav and/or sudaruska and readily wield it through anything, can be friendly and effective in close to any party.
Effective? Maybe. Friendly? Okay, you're really stretching it there. This is the internet, remember?

As weapons... these are not the best things ever...
That's all we're trying to say.

These things can tell you more than most the swords in the game about their wielder.
Not necessarily. Anyone could just buy a Suda (or for that matter, almost any other piece of gear) off of the AH for a price.

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 13:41

#18

Phaseburst

/sigh

@Flists would you pay me 100K cr if there's no stagger storm, voltedge, or final flourish on the AH?

@SPPW if you were frozen in LD and out of boost, would you get hit by leviathan charge OR Sudaruska Charge?

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 14:28

#19

Flists

No, but my point is that you

No, but my point is that you can buy them straight out off of anyone without any requirements if you have the inclination to do so. Anyone could buy crap tons of CE with real money, then buy any weapon they desire off of anyone without having touched the weapon before, so you can't use "experience" as an argument.

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 19:14

#20

Fehzor

It is a proven fact that

It is a proven fact that Triglav makes the user "friendly".

@sppw

First of all, you have the misconception that I want DA/GF buffed. If anything, they need to be fixed- that is to say, allowed to correctly do their charge by walls, in which case they will again be "better" than many other things, and will almost tie with brandishes. Brandishes will still probably win due to having status effects to them. In the end, it only matters to players able to afford to earn both, as both are usable and both will be recommended by people who made them first and are biased.

@Toaster-Overlord

Am I allowed to put my Sudaruska on AH first?

@Haters

There are only 4 weapons I find effective for me on gremlins in T3. Those are in no particular order- Sudaruska, Triglav, Umbra driver and Sentenza. :D

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 19:53

#21

Magnicth

TRIIIGLAAAAAAVV!!!

@Fehzor: Its true!I have a triglav and Im very friendly! (unless your a beggar or elitist,so if you are,you better watch out -.-)

~Magnicth the Dragon Mage

Lun, 07/23/2012 - 20:26

#22

Skold-The-Drac

@You can just buy it.

Tell me you'd honestly buy a triglav/suda for the unbind cost, let alone the crafting fees. Please do... I'll be sure to keep one aside for ya.

In a world full of elitists and various other forms of aggravating traits personified. When you see someone wielding a trig/suda, more oft than not they indeed are more friendly. There's only one person, ONE, that I've met who's wielded one of these heavy swords and not been nice. They were an absolute troll and I won't name names, but I solo'd rather quickly and invited the party he had.

Mar, 07/24/2012 - 12:29

#23

Flists

Tell me you'd honestly buy a

Tell me you'd honestly buy a triglav/suda for the unbind cost, let alone the crafting fees. Please do... I'll be sure to keep one aside for ya.
I'm not saying I would, I'm saying you could if you really wanted one. And actually, I wouldn't, because I think the Triglav/Suda is inferior to the DA/GF, for the reasons that I and many others have listed above.

When you see someone wielding a trig/suda, more oft than not they indeed are more friendly.
That has nothing to do with the sword and its abilities, which are what we are discussing here.

Mar, 07/24/2012 - 17:22

#24

Necroes

Sudaruska

I love the khorovod (and I mean the khorovod specifically) and I've used it since i was in wolver (2 years ago. y'know, when sudaruska wasn't around and the triglav line didn't exist). No matter how much i love khorovod, I have to say that overall it really ISN'T as effective as DA or GF. They're still the preferred weapon in PVP, and for good reason. DA is still great in fsc, GF is still ridiculously effective against Jelly King. I could sit here raging saying the SS line is overpowered, or sound like a hipster by complaining about the subtle changes OOO made to the troika line about a year ago now. But really it wasn't a great weapon to start out with, I was just great with it. I don't use it now because I can claim it's up there with the most effective weapons in the game (I'd put it pretty far down there) I use it out of the the joy of using it. Watching enemies go flying forward, watching it pull back, and then launch forward, scattering your enemies. It's a fun weapon to play, and I really don't like anything else. Maybe the khorovod is the reason that, 2 years later, I'm still in 4* gear, maybe it's because I like to blow my crowns (more likely) but I really don't care. I have a hell of a time using it, and if you want to say that's stupid, I really don't care. Tying it up, I'm saying most of the points that Fehzor is making are one-sided, inconclusive, or just false. If you want to use a sudaruska or triglav, do it out of enjoyment, because regardless of what stats show or what these guys say, it's not what you have it's what make of it and I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make a Khorovod much more effective than the way I'm using it.

Mié, 07/25/2012 - 00:51

#25

Fehzor

@Necroes

I'm glad that you use your weapons because you like using your weapons; most people do. Now why are my points one sided, inconclusive and false?

Mié, 07/25/2012 - 20:44

#26

Trollingyou

Why they are false

You say brandishes outclass the DA/GF in DPS. This, however does not mean Suda/Triglav is better, it makes the brandishes are better than them, in terms of DPS. Your argument is that Suda/Triglav are better than DA/GF, not brandishes. Also, if brandishes are better than DA/GF, then they absolutely smoke the Suda/Triglav in damage. Why do shivermist > Suda charge, when a glacius charge will do the job of both?

Also, you never stated why they were better, as the comparisons only gave information as to why their damage is worse on neutral targets. This does mean they are better, this just reinforces why they are worse. Find facts and stats that support Suda/Triglav being better to support your argument (though we know those do not exist, because statistically they are worse in every way except the charge attack), then maybe people will believe you.

Jue, 07/26/2012 - 10:10

#27

Fehzor

I don't think that you understood my argument correctly.

-DA/GF are better at DPS with normal attacks, but rely on the user specializing on swords. Brandishes are better for this role

-Sudaruska/Triglav are better for gunners, and offer a better charge attack that suits gunners well for crowd control

-The difference in damage against large targets is not large enough to matter

-The difference in ASI matters a small amount, but not enough in the long run

-DPS with sudaruska does not matter due to the user specializing in guns

-Sudaruska is better at its role than GF/DA are at their roles.

-Triglav fits the same role as sudaruska, except is better if they bring shiver+ice, and worse otherwise.

There is no linear progression in "better", it depends on how you use things.

Jue, 07/26/2012 - 10:32

#28

Yukarie

Well, to be fair, there are

Well, to be fair, there are times where, even as a predominantly swords person, I will want DPS/knockback in a wide arc, rather than the line of explosions given by a brandish charge. In those cases, yes, I would prefer a GF or a DA to a suda/triglav.

Jue, 07/26/2012 - 12:21

#29

Flists

Sudaruska/Triglav are better

Sudaruska/Triglav are better for gunners, and offer a better charge attack that suits gunners well for crowd control
Yes
Sudaruska is better at its role than GF/DA are at their roles.
If this is now your argument you should probably change the thread title, it's kinda misleading.

Vie, 07/27/2012 - 03:02

#30

Fehzor

Where triglav is better than DA/GF: http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/540682152431810124/09A013D67082C4A83...

Vie, 07/27/2012 - 03:04

#31

Fehzor

Doublepost glitch

Vie, 07/27/2012 - 12:40

#32

Flists

A GF would work just as well

A GF would work just as well there, if not better because of speed.

Vie, 07/27/2012 - 15:20

#33

Trollingyou

You still have not shown facts why they are better

You say Suda/Triglav offer better crowd control for those specializing on guns through the charge attack. You once again stated how DA/GF is not as good as brandish line for DPS, but didn't state how Suda/Triglav are any better for DPS. By this logic, the shivermist, renders Suda/Triglav useless in crowd control for specializing gunners because it is safer to use and a simple CTR UV can make it almost as good as a specializing bomber's shivermist. When you are comparing two items, you compare the two, and not any other item.

If, however, you are talking about them being better for gunners (like Flists noted) then you should change the title, because it is very misleading

Being better may not be so linear, but it is there. No matter how well you use a plague needle, the blitz needle will always outclass it. Just because someone uses something extremely well does not make the item in question better, it just means that the person has the skills to use that item extremely well. Skills do not come into play when determining whether or not something is better.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 00:34

#34

Sppw

@Toaster-Overlord Leviathan

@Toaster-Overlord

Leviathan Charge.
3 hits while im frozen.

Sudarsuka Charge does NOT kill me in lockdown.
Leviathan does.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 01:01

#35

Uuni

DA combo is much more

DA combo is much more reliable at interrupting enemy attacks, charge attack does not leave your vulnerabe, deals more damage and is in general more useful weapon. Other than charge attack these points apply to GF as well. Triglav and suda both suck even though I think they are really cool

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 08:01

#36

Doctorspacebar

SUNSHAAAAAAAAARDS

Please. Suda and Triglav both have a waaaay higher coolness factor than DA and GF. Sure, the ornate energy on the DA/GF is pretty cool, but Suda and Triglav are HUGE FREAKING SWORDS WITH SO MUCH FREAKING ENERGY THERE' BREAKING A FREAKING PART.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 08:23

#37

Serell

Mhm.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 11:25

#38

Flists

"Coolness" is just an

"Coolness" is just an opinion, and isn't really a factor in what we're discussing here...

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 14:01

#39

Zolota

oh wow

My advice: Use what you like and stop comparing weapons.

I don't like any of these swords. Wait a sec, that isn't correct. My beautiful little Faust made me stop fearing JK and I made it into a big Faust today. Good Faust. Anyway. It's pretty obvious to seriously everyone that DA/GF outclass the Troika. Given that I really never ever charge with my Faust, the very first line of the very first post gives me the impression:

Faust is better than Troika for all reasons.

Brandish outclasses both DA/GF? Hell no. I hate Brandishes. I hate them like mad. Get Brandishes away from here, I don't want to see them. Hell, I don't even want to read about them.

Also, noone really swings DA around, people only use it for the charge attack. I won't even use a DA if someone would actually give me one for free. I have my Polaris for doing elemental damage. Charging is not relevant to my interests. Yeah, I've been using a Striker for months, that gives one a charge trauma.

Anyway, given that I don't charge and that you explicitly state that Suda has both less damage per hit AND more swing time, you clearly give reasons for why it's worse. Add to that that it only does normal damage and there you have it.

Now, let me bring up another fact. I prefer the Triglav because it's cooler. Literally. Suda causes stun. Stun is bugged, stun is a buff, stun is bad. You give no reason why Triglav is better than DA/GF.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 14:20

#40

Fehzor

@Trollingyou
DA/GF and brandishes are both obviously elemental/shadow, putting them into direct competition whereas sudaruska fills the gap of a gunner's sidearm without any competition, save from levi, which I would place as a close 2nd if I had to rate them. Levi is better for taking out turrets and doing direct damage, whereas sudaruska has a better normal swing for the purposes of pushing things back.

Imagine that you are trapped in that one FSC room- the one with the 4 fires surrounding the key between the gates with the buttons behind the fires- if you just pushed the button and are trapped, you can use suda to push them back, then switch to your elemental handgun to deal damage, or alternatively push back 3-5 of them at a time without stepping onto the fire so that you can charge your blitz in order to kill all of them. Keep in mind that you will still have the charge for this situation, whereas DA's charge would fail you due to walls. Then, later when your buddies spam e- vortex, you can still do a ton of damage to it with the charge.

People don't like shiver because it fails at crowd control sometimes. In the picture I posted, that was one of the only moments where they were all frozen like that- most of the time I had to beware of them moving around dodging and being goofy dogs. Had I brought triglav to that fight, I'd have had a weapon that would have made it much easier to fight them.

I've said all of this before, and you are either skipping over my posts to get points that somewhat don't make sense or are otherwise misunderstanding what I'm writing.

@Uuni
But you aren't bringing suda to a place where you know what enemies you'll be fighting, and you won't have room for both DA and GF. Namely, danger rooms as a gunner. You'll have maybe a status bomb, umbra+magma driver and sudaruska. So what do I do if I go to one of those rooms, and am forced to fight a crowd of beasts with my DA? If you know what you're going to have to fight it makes it a lot easier, in which case you shouldn't have a problem enough to warrant using something normal on it.

@sppw
I don't play lockdown, so that may very well be the case.

By the way, if you guys are missing any of these (DA/GF/Suda/Triglav) I would be glad to demonstrate what I mean for you.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 14:35

#41

Uuni

If you know you are fighting

If you know you are fighting basts you can take GF. Hits them for way more than what suda does, faster, safer and can even inflict curse on them. I have all the 4 weapons we are discussing about and my triglav has ASI med and it's still way worse than DA/GF without uv's

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 20:35

#42

Derpules

@Zolota

"Also, noone really swings DA around, people only use it for the charge attack."

You're joking, right? o__O

Vie, 05/30/2014 - 16:45

#43

Fehzor

@Uuni

What if you don't know you are fighting beasts, or want to use a charge attack that won't disfigure you/make them teleport?

How often do you use the charge of your triglav? The charge is, after all, the largest redeeming feature.

Sáb, 07/28/2012 - 23:59

#44

Sppw

Link is private,Fehzor. Now I

Link is private,Fehzor.
Now I begin to understand what this is all about.
@Fehzor Now after I understand I agree with you but there is one thing I do not agree with you.
Sudarsuka,Triglav AND Leviathan Blade are not weapons for swordmasters neither of these are party friendly(Knockback stuff into you).I personally have grown up on a Shockburst Brandish and have eventually now begun to hate slow swords so IMO Leviathan is better than Sudarsuka,Triglav.

@All raging at Fehzor

He is not talking about anyone and everyone.Only non-swordmasters need a weapon to counter some enemies.Particularly bombers. A bomber/Gunner needs a utility sword to knock enemies away to charge/shoot knockback.

¬ Sppw

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 01:17

#45

Fehzor

@sppw
I find that knockback is only really bad when it is random and 'too much'.. for instance, BAB and Levi charge both send enemies flying in unpredictable directions when used in crowds- those are bad for parties. Sudaruska's charge is more of a planned direction type thing, it throws enemies in a direction, it does not just shoot them everywhere... so that is one thing that suda has over levi that I didn't even think of originally.

I'd actually go so far as to say that levi would fit better with bombers than suda; it would let the bomber take out turrets better than most bombs do, especially with the potential upcoming REMOVAL of RSS from the bomber's arsenal. And most bombers shouldn't have too many problems with crowd control... thats kind of their thing. But the charge on it would let them take out turrets and heavy enemies that are left over.

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 06:49

#46

Niichi

Out of curiosity, why are you bringing up the charge attack of the Troika lines when you're trying to demonstrate their usefulness as a gunner/bomber backup weapon? If the sword is just there to get you out of trouble or where a gun/bomb is ineffective then I wouldn't think you'd be using the charge that much. Might as well go primary swordie if the concern is doing as much damage as possible.

Maybe in rare situations like your aforementioned Levi charge on turrets for bombers, but that's about it. Not that I'm that fond of the Troika line charge attack anyway. It seems to leave you wide open without someone crowd controlling the mobs.

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 06:56

#47

Sppw

a Sudarsuka charge INTO a

a Sudarsuka charge INTO a group throws the sword over small-medium sized enemies. throwing them into you or in another angle which is undesirable

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 08:24

#48

The-Rawrcake

Suda and Triglav are side

Suda and Triglav are side weps thingies for specific situations and

DA and GF are for all around use for just killin stuffs, so

We can't really compare them because they are for entirely different purposes?

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 15:32

#49

Flists

We can't really compare them

We can't really compare them because they are for entirely different purposes?
I agree, but Fehzor believes otherwise.

Dom, 07/29/2012 - 19:50

#50

Doctorspacebar

SUNSHAAAAAAAAARDS

Triggy charge in the center of a Vortex. Now how do you follow that up? With the same charge on the same spot, because the baddies are froze. Rinse, wash, repeat until everything's dead. Kills stuffs for sure.

And Sppw, if people can use Nitronome and not cause their group any grief (I can't quite fathom how, but it's been done), then Suda charge is no problem.

Buscar

Why I believe Sudaruska and Triglav to be better than Gran Faust and Divine Avenger