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blightneelde>plague needle? req contributer

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Jue, 01/10/2013 - 04:02
Hariender

heres some old thread about needle (just don't disturb the thread) :
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19830
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/51424

I have blight needle its nice to have it can 1 charge trojan in 2 player party,poison enemies,killing mini slime without any dmg bonus.I want to consider upgrade it but in wiki the dmg table on plague needle is so incomplete and the dmg on undead is lower then then blight like whattt?

Looking at the dmg bar it only increase about half barwhen upgrade it.

For me i consider poison more useful even i go solo.

I don't have any plan on using blitz needle since it only just plain give more dmg >_>..........(and also not liking the skin)

if someone have plague needle can you give correct dmg table so i can consider to upgrade it i like that green since i choose my character green.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 04:17
#1
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

Huh, didn't know the tables were incomplete... guess I know what I'll be doing for an afternoon then.
Plague Needle can OHKO Trojans in FSC in a 4-man party if all shots hit, but only on certain levels due to damage reduction. I recall my Blight being able to do the same with a med damage bonus vs. fiends. Haven't calculated exact damage output though.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 05:22
#2
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
ever since May gun/bomb buff

Some of the wiki tables were not updated after the May gun/bomb buff. In some cases, they were blanked, but then never filled in again. Also, you might want to look at the history of the Blight Needle page, to see whether it was updated; its information might be wrong.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 05:51
#3
Hariender
ok bopp

I look at this history

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Plague_Needle&action=history

not much i can read :p

(cur) (prev) 22:04, 15 August 2011 SK Tactics (Talk | contribs) m (2,239 bytes) (Added empty damage table.)

a guy name powerplug give the only contribute

(cur) (prev) 17:55, 17 October 2011 Powerplug (Talk | contribs) m (2,260 bytes) (stratum 6 vs undead)

Oh this interesting

(cur) (prev) 10:29, 17 June 2012 Trying (Talk | contribs) (2,734 bytes) (updated damage table)

=.= oh wait

(cur) (prev) 10:58, 19 June 2012 Trying (Talk | contribs) m (2,641 bytes) (Undo revision 86729 by Trying (Talk)derp wrong gun)

btw does dmg when poisoedn should also be told or just the plain dmg?

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 10:14
#4
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
the key edit

The key edit is 17 June 2012 by Trying, with summary "updated damage table". Trying is/was a major wiki contributor, and that edit completely changed the damage table, and it came after the gun buff. So those numbers are probably up to date.

The damage numbers should come from non-poisoned monsters, unless there is a note saying otherwise.

Edit: I see now that Trying removed the damage numbers on 19 June, due to an error. Too bad.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 06:27
#5
Hariender
...

I'm not sure why from talking about should i upgrade turn into wiki talk....

Anyway i see other like strike needle didn't update or just not many contributer which one is it?

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 06:38
#6
Imagen de Little-Juances
Little-Juances

"btw does dmg when poisoedn should also be told or just the plain dmg?"

Poison increases all damage by the same amount (percentage). All we need to know is this single number.
Repeating the information would be unnecesary.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 07:40
#7
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
Hariender

I'm not sure why from talking about should i upgrade turn into wiki talk....

It is common on these forums for threads to veer away from their original posters' intents, based on the interests of the participants.

Anyway i see other like strike needle didn't update or just not many contributer which one is it?

Not many people contribute these damage numbers. As far as I can tell, the people who do contribute are mostly end-game players who are focused on 5-star items in Tier 3.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 02:45
#8
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Hnnng

I would contribute more actively, but it's rather confusing given that certain monsters seem to have higher resistances to damage than others in the same family. For example, Deadnaughts seem to take less damage from my Plague Needle than the standard Zombies at the same depth in LoA; should I be checking the damage values for every single monster subtype, or just for the most common family members? Because if it's the former, it's going to be quite difficult to get values for each depth...

Obvious and easy alternative is to standardize all the damage values by using the weapons on the new training dummies available in Guild Halls. I'm not sure how well that would work, though, given that it wouldn't be a valid representation of the weapons over two stratums.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 14:16
#9
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
Aureate

Unless you want to be a hero, don't try to record damage numbers for subtypes within a family. It's too tedious, and won't usually matter. Here are two things that might be happening:

A. I've found DVS' damage numbers to be unreliable. That is, I keep getting different ones. My guess is that the target gets poisoned, but the graphics for poison don't get displayed due to a bug. Perhaps that's happening with Plague Needle too?

B. It's possible that the dreadnaughts have weird resistances, like Vanaduke does. I'd stick to more "regular" kinds of undead: zombies, kats, howlitzers, etc.

There is already a thread on the Wiki Editors forum about collecting damage numbers from guild hall dummies. You might want to contribute there. And Lancer Knightz already have really detailed damage numbers for most swords and guns from depths 19 and 24.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 16:03
#10
Imagen de Batabii
Batabii
Processing Thoughts of You Always

I had heard, I believe from the wiki, that blitz needle will always do more damage, even accounting for the poison and a other teammates. But I'm not willing to grind for tokens just to test it.

Jue, 01/10/2013 - 16:36
#11
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
the conventional wisdom

For the poison of the Plague Needle to beat Blitz Needle's extra damage, you certainly need a lot of teammates exploiting that poison. For example, the conventional wisdom for fighting Vanaduke with Autoguns is (if I recall correctly):
* For four players, the optimal configuration is three Blitz Needles and one Plague Needle.
* For three or fewer players, the optimal configuration is all Blitz Needles.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 02:43
#12
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Oh so we're doing this now >.>

Yeah, the Blitz regularly does about 100 more damage or thereabouts than the Plague, even whilst taking the poison into account. It's only reasonable when the extra damage from the Blitz with poison makes up for the lack... or if you're getting damaged quite a lot.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 09:37
#13
Euclidean-Space
-

Blitz > Blight. I'm not being bias as I own and have tested both weapons in FSC.
My Blight allows me to 1CKO trojans because it has Fiend VH. But without that it couldn't unless all shots hit. (Assuming 4 people party)
Blight does have nice poison that will decrease Vana's damage done and also his defence. It's also nice to have a Blight during mask phases but Blitz's damage outclass Blight way too much. Even with poison always on Blight's damage is incomparable with Blitz. So I'd say Blitz > Blight for FSC runs. In FSC one can easily acquire poison vials which may overtake the job of a Blight. As I believe in FSC Blight's purpose is solely (or at least tilted towards) its status which is Poison. I'd rather use Venom Veiler or Vials than having to almost half my damage output.

Still on top of all that, Blight looks awesome. It has a 'poisoned' aura effect while Blitz comes with a free Divine Halo.

Looks
Blitz < Blight

For general use
Blitz > Blight

Personal oppinions.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 09:51
#14
Hariender
uhh...

As i taught people only like higher dmg over cool looking and status,and low dmg.oh well

I like what i like.
You like what you like.

I will choose to upgrade or not when the plague dmg chart is been corrected.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 10:46
#15
Imagen de Bella-Donna
Bella-Donna
boop

Some damage tables are for level 1 weapons, some for level 10 weapons.

A 4* level 10 weapon will outclass a 5* level 1 weapon but a level 10 5* weapon should outclass the 4* level 10 weapons. Just make sure you look at it correctly and be prepared for the slight nerf before it gets better. it probably does more damage as a plague needle though i bet someone will be updating the wiki soon.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 11:36
#16
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
really?

Some damage tables are for level 1 weapons, some for level 10 weapons.

Really? All the ones I've seen are for heat level 10. That seems to be the standard, maybe because it's easy to keep an item at heat level 10, but hard to keep it at heat level 1. But I haven't surveyed all of them recently.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 12:50
#17
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Meanwhile in Guild Halls

After messing around in the Guild Hall training section for a bit, I've come up with some numbers for the extremely helpful dummies down there, which should give a rough guide to the Plague Needle's damage numbers. The numbers below are for the t3 Training Hall, since the lower tiers aren't really relevant to the question; I'm not entirely sure whether it equivalates to stratum 5 or stratum 6 values, however. The values are on par with the ones for stratum 6 listed in the wiki, but I'm not sure whether those were recorded before or after the buff.
The Plague Needle in question is fully heated, with a CTR Low UV. There are no other UVs on it that might affect damage output.
The first value is the damage per bullet for the standard clip of 6; the second value is the damage per bullet for the charge clip of 15.

....................Weak....Neutral..Resistant
+0 damage: 75/170 . 45/103 . 17/29
+2 damage: 86/188 . 49/127 . 18/32
+4 damage: 96/206 . 54/145 . 19/34

(I don't currently own any trinkets, so can't give any data for +6/Max! damage bonus.)
According to the wiki, the damage values of Blitz are more than double those of Plague on neutral targets, something that's consistent with what I've noticed on Vanaduke runs. This gap will be even wider when taking damage buffs into account.
Hope this helps.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 13:06
#18
Hariender
my fast test

my blight Heat 10
no +dmg bonus in T3 training hall without getting poison dmg
weak:70/162
neutral:43/95
resistant:16/29

....wow i see why many not bother upgrade

you know 3 O you can just block it to just 4*....

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 13:14
#19
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Alternatively,

they could buff the 5*'s damage a bit. So that, y'know, it's a bit more worth having.
Just for the sake of comparison, the non-poisoned damage of the Plague Needle is apparently less than that of the 4* Strike Needle on neutral enemies, something I personally find pretty depressing.

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 14:35
#20
Imagen de Bopp
Bopp
depth 23

The numbers below are for the t3 Training Hall, since the lower tiers aren't really relevant to the question; I'm not entirely sure whether it equivalates to stratum 5 or stratum 6 values, however.

The Tier 3 training hall is at depth 23, officially. This information should help you compare the training hall damage numbers to the wiki damage numbers. For example, for Blitz Needle, regular shots, at heat level 10, damage bonus+0, against neutral enemies:
* Depth 22: 57 (from Blitz Needle, stratum 5 maximum)
* Depth 23: ?? (whatever you get in the training hall)
* Depth 24: 62 (from Blitz Needle, stratum 6 minimum)

Vie, 01/11/2013 - 23:48
#21
Imagen de Exerpa
Exerpa
For what its worth, the

For what its worth, the Plague Needle has the same relative damage as the Volcanic Pepperbox for both normal and charged shots. According to the d23 guild training hall dummies, anyway.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 02:28
#22
Imagen de Warriorrogue
Warriorrogue

@Hariender
Sure, not much difference in raw damage, but look at the strength of the status. It become stronger, resulting in it being able to deal more then blight, when the targets are poisoned. It also increases the blitzes damage, to, if I remember right, higher then 4 blitzes

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 05:18
#23
Hariender
#22

Become stronger?
*checking the wiki*
._. it does.But does it also increase duration? i'm interested.

" It also increases the blitzes damage"
what did you mean by that? are you referring to vana party? cause i more to like to use any(proper) place rather then just single focus vana.Its not all about vana dude.And poison not all just about party .

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 09:56
#24
Imagen de Qwez
Qwez
Ramble...

I would like it if people stopped saying that poison works the freaking same no matter the strength of poison.
I forgot the percentages, but I did a test earlier with Strong vs Minor poison (Weapons used: Plague Needle, Venom Veiler). Strong does about 26% more damage, Minor does somewhere around 22%, but I'm not completely sure about the exactness. The point is, Poison IS Not the Same.

I'd upgrade to Plague for the status effect boost. Ultimately, if you are going to be using your Blight for Vana and not going to pickup a Blitz, I believe you might as well upgrade. It's a personal preference whether or not you want that damage and poison boost. (I personally am not upgrading my Vile Striker because there is only a damage boost, no status effect boost)

It is not "certain monsters" that have damage resistance, rather an Area has total damage reduction. If you always have damage numbers up, you can figure out these places. There is one at the end of LoA, one or two in D26 FSC, to name a few.

Plague Needle is supposed to be for the poison effect, I hope that it gets a higher proc chance of poison, along with the DVS. Plague Needle and DVS have same proc chance of poison for the same effect of poison, but Plague ultimately hits more often while using the charge. So the poison aspect of DVS is diminished due to not hitting as oftenly to proc poison. I would give up Poison strength for proc chance increase upgrade for Plague Needle and DVS should have a free proc chance increase because Vile Striker has the same proc chance and poison effect.
A demonstration of how meager the slight chance is on Plague Needle, is when blanketing a crowd of zombies with a charge attack, usually nets 0-3 poisoned zombies, I'd take out Plague from that name, it doesn't deserve that moniker.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 10:27
#25
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
I enjoy using the gun, but...

I find that the status does not proc often enough for it to be worth the considerable loss of damage, when compared to Blitz Needle.
However, with many smaller mobs, and in parties of less than 3, this is not generally an issue since the damage of the Plague is usually enough for me to kill most things with a single charge.
And yes, I am aware that there are different strengths of poison for the Plague line. Regrettably, the difference between them is marginal in comparison to the damage difference between the 4* and 5* pure-piercing needles.
Some people might say that this means Plague and Pepperbox need buffing, but I suspect it's more because the Blitz is just so obscenely powerful that most things pale in comparison to it. The latter gun could probably do with a damage nerf, to be honest.

...scratch that. Blitz needs a damage nerf, full stop.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 10:44
#26
Imagen de Fradow
Fradow
I wanted to re-run the test I

I wanted to re-run the test I did a few months ago (probably outdated by now, here is the link, comment 30 : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/35702 ), but I didn't find a willing Plague Needle user yet.

As an aside, what's to consider :
- in which cases Blitz will be able to OS things while Plague will need at least 2 charges ? (thus 2x times, regardless of specific DPS) : I'd argue, a lot. Trojans and zombies, which amounts for the most part of FSC.
- in which cases is Plague's poison being to be actually useful ? Considering the low chances of poison, the low effect of poison and the fact that things die so fast, I'd argue : not a lot.
- when in prolonged DPS (= Vanaduke), how much Blitz do you need so that N Blitz + 1 Plague > N+1 Blitz ? I need data to determine that. I don't think it evolved a lot since my last calculations (which was even heavily skewed toward Plague).

" the Blitz is just so obscenely powerful that most things pale in comparison to it"
I agree totally with that statement.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 12:22
#27
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
ooh ooh pick me pick me

The test is out-of-date as a result of the guns buff that came in May (I think). As a result, all damage of all guns and bombs got an indiscriminate increase in damage. That includes the Plague, but it also includes the Blitz, and since it was a percentage increase, we all know what that means, right?

Would be perfectly happy to help lend my Plague to your data finding, by the way, although I'm not entirely sure when my online time would coincide with yours.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 13:14
#28
Imagen de Fradow
Fradow
Shoot me a friend invite, I

Shoot me a friend invite, I have the same in-game name as forum name (tried to pm you 2 times but you were offline or don't use the same name). Else I know of 2 persons who have one, but I have the same problem with them : hours.

"since it was a percentage increase, we all know what that means, right?"
No, I'm dubious of percentage increases, because there may be some roundings or some details or something (for example, it is often assumed poison is 10%, but it's not, same goes for damage increase from DB etc....). I prefer to test it to be 100% sure.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 13:20
#29
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Herp derp.

I was offline, hence the lack of response.
The Blitz has a larger base damage value, ergo when its damage gets increased by a fixed percentage, it will receive a larger fixed damage buff than the Plague. 10% of 2000 is greater than 10% of 1000, after all. Or whatever the previous damage values were, I can't really remember.
Sending friend request, although I won't be able to run immediately due to need of sleep.

Sáb, 01/12/2013 - 17:36
#30
Imagen de Traevelliath
Traevelliath

I did some testing while chilling in a random Guild Training hall against those practice punching bags. All these numbers were against a Beast Punching Bag, and both guns had the same damage bonus (Damage Bonus High via Trinket and 1 piece of Chaos for the CTR).

Plague Needle Charge:
- Poisoned: ~206 per shot
- Not Poisoned: ~197 per shot

Blitz Needle Charge:
- Poisoned: ~275 per shot
- Not poisoned: ~263 per shot

The Blitz needle got ~+12 damage from the poison. The Plague Needle was ~60 points of damage short of a Blitz.

4x Blitzes (No Poison): ~1052
3x Blitzes + Plague (With poison): ~1031

These are rough numbers, but to me it seems that even with 3 other Blitzes, the Plague is still inferior to the Blitz. Now the damage difference is not too much, so you can debate other benefits from poison could potentially outweigh the damage difference (Counters Healing and reduced damage).

Dom, 01/13/2013 - 00:00
#31
Imagen de Batabii
Batabii
why do some people try to

why do some people try to sound all nerdy and say "proc" (which doesn't really even make sense) instead of "happen"?

Dom, 01/13/2013 - 01:09
#32
Imagen de Warriorrogue
Warriorrogue

OK, I was wrong about the poison bonus increasing damage enough >.>
Oh well, just as well I've got a blitz and a plague, which until it's buffed, probably isn't going to get used. Pity.

Dom, 01/13/2013 - 02:19
#33
Hariender
#32

So.... basicly the 'strong poison' is just duration?

Dom, 01/13/2013 - 03:49
#34
Imagen de Aureate
Aureate
Just to annoy you.

Obviously.
...or it might be a Procedurally Randomated OCcurence, a term used to describe an action that occurs at a randomly determined time (such as a status activating on hit). It is an actual thing. 'Proc' is less syllables than 'happen', and less confusing.

Why do some people post with nothing to contribute to the thread?

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