Spiral Knights - The Problem with Dual Wielding Weapons

The Problem with Dual Wielding Weapons

18 replies [Last post]

Sun, 02/19/2017 - 19:13

Grimreaperlord

I've seen this quite a lot, but there's something that has to be addressed here.

There's many severe flaws with this system. When you come up with a suggestion, it's beautiful to dream. Dream away. Like this one dream I had last night where I was riding a flying horse into the sunset, then some bad guys came up behind me in fighter jets and I had to activate my horse-mounted heat-seeking missiles and take them down. My horse was hit, however, and I plummeted to the ground. But I activated my Horse Self-Repair System and took them down in the end. and then I woke up. None of that was real, but I can still dream, gosh dang it!

But sometimes, you can't simply give a simple suggestion such as that. Dual wielding has a ton of technical limitations. Secondary animations will need to be created for the second weapon, such as a combo for the two weapons. And before you refer to Valeyn, I was going to talk about her. Valeyn is NOT a dual wielder. This is actually done by replacing the shield with another Flourish. In battle, it doesn't do anything, it's just the exact same as a normal single weapon. She doesn't swing the second sword, she doesn't do more damage... You can do this in SpiralSpy, a model viewer for Spiral Knights. You can even view the animations if you like, but it's just the exact same thing as using one weapon.

And weapon switching will be incredibly complex. You can't just replace the shield slot with a weapon. Do we have two weapons to switch? Are we able to switch both weapons at will based off the ones we currently have equipped? Do we have two weapon wheels? I'm confused.

A system like that would take a while to code in and animate. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just... out of our reach for the time being.

Mon, 02/20/2017 - 12:58

Shadow-Drake

weapon switching could be simplified

hold shift then scroll to change your offhand weapon (shield-hand) and just normal scroll to change your main weapon (sword-hand)

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 01:28

Strayed-Faris

LOUD WOLVER BARKING

Eh. Personally, I can see "dual-wielding" working out as long as it's swords and they aren't treated as two independent weapons. We already have something like that, which is the Furious Fork. Just go the extra mile, make the second hand attack, give them a coordinated three attack combo and reasonable charge attack. Shields could be turned temporary invisible as pseudo dual-wielding is in action, this way shields could be used but not make the attack animation look weird.

Shield bashing would still look awkward, but oi, you get to swing two swords side by side. xD

The problem with real dual-wielding isn't just that it's too complex to implement, there is also the fact that our weapons weren't meant to be dual-wielded. Seriously, do you want people running around with two Acherons or two Blitz Needles? Personally, I think that would be hilarious to watch, but it's pretty obvious that something like that would do more harm than good. Besides, shields are pretty important most of the time.

tl;dr= Pseudo dual-wielding as cosmetics is fine and would be cool to have. Real dual-wielding is not okay and should never be a thing.

[quote]

Like this one dream I had last night where I was riding a flying horse into the sunset, then some bad guys came up behind me in fighter jets and I had to activate my horse-mounted heat-seeking missiles and take them down. My horse was hit, however, and I plummeted to the ground. But I activated my Horse Self-Repair System and took them down in the end. and then I woke up. None of that was real, but I can still dream, gosh dang it!

[/quote]

are you... are you writing a My Little Pony fanfic right now?! >:v

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 00:51

Shadow-Drake

"do you want people running

"do you want people running around with two Acherons or two Blitz Needles?"

yes

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 01:00

Strayed-Faris

woof

@Shadow-Drake

>yes

...............

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 01:59

Avsmanfred

Oh don't be so scared of this idea

Alright i think that saying that our weapons aren meant to be dual welded is a bit too much, after all for dual welding we would have to put our shield on back and become mostly defendles from any attacks(well i have idea to give us some minor defense without shield but thats the whole diffrent topic). So even if we could have this enormous power in both hands we need to use it very carefully to odn't let enemies hit us when we ca't run away what gives some balance to it already, also about choosing weapon mechanics, i think that it could be done with simple menu allowing us to pick weapons from what we havve equipend.

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 03:13

Strayed-Faris

woof

@Avsmanfred

>Alright i think that saying that our weapons aren meant to be dual welded is a bit too much

ayy lmao

what

Please explain to me, in as much detail as possible, how were our weapons designed for dual-wielding.

Keep in mind that our weapons already do a great job killing everything. What would dual-wielding add to game-play besides LOLDAKADAKA or potentially creating overpowered weapon combinations?

Also, how do you even dual-wield bombs? And how does this work in Lockdown? Strikers, Guardian and Recons would lose all their abilities. That's no dash for strikers, no cloak for recons and no shield for guardians.

The entire game was optimized for single weapon usage, Lockdown, the enemies and the boss fights. Introducing dual-wielding would mean to re-balance the entire game just for that single feature. Dual wielding will break something, no matter how you look at it and we don't even need it.

>So even if we could have this enormous power in both hands we need to use it very carefully to odn't let enemies hit us when we ca't run away what gives some balance to it already,

Lol. The way you look at this is very shallow.

We avoid enemies all the time as-is, so that isn't a penalty and losing shields isn't an interesting feature. Most of the tactics utilized in end-game are dependent on shields. Things like shield bumps, shield bash and shield canceling is what makes SK interesting and it shapes a lot of play-styles. If we could no longer do any of that, I predict things would get really boring soon, which means dual-wielding wouldn't even be interesting. If ya need extra fire power, just get any of the offensive armor sets we already have.

I still can't see why this would be a good idea aside for cosmetics.

tl;dr= dual-wielding is very boring and uninteresting. prove me wrong.

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 16:53

Fangel

Dual wielding only works and can be balanced if it's just a cosmetic thing. At that point, what point is there in having dual wielding?

Tue, 02/21/2017 - 23:06

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

Dual wielding only works and can be balanced if it's just a cosmetic thing. At that point, what point is there in having dual wielding?

That's like, just your opinion, man. I don't think dual wielding would be worth the dev time spent making it work (the game wasn't set up for it so it'd be realllll hard to do) but I do think that it could be made to function well, be balanced, all of that.

Wed, 02/22/2017 - 07:14

Strayed-Faris

*wolver noises*

>Dual wielding only works and can be balanced if it's just a cosmetic thing. At that point, what point is there in having dual wielding?

Err... I don't understand the question? :o

Most cosmetic items don't serve a purpose game-play wise. It would be just nice to look at.

Wed, 02/22/2017 - 14:46

#10

Fangel

design choices

When it comes to designing a new mechanic, but the best way to do it is to just reuse an old mechanic, then making it a new mechanic seems odd or unnecessary. For example, the cutter line of swords could easily be two swords, but instead we have ghost blades to not need to animate a left hand attack animation or some other mess with shields.

There's a lot of suggestions over the years that can be called cosmetic things. Most "new" weapon types are just more of the same of what we currently have. Sniper Rifles cannot truly be snipers without drastically changing the pace of the game. So instead of a sniper rifle, we have the magnus line of handguns. Why should "claws" as a weapon be any different than a cutter? Catalyzers are another example a really unique mechanic adapted for our current lineup of weapons.

So coming back down to it, what purpose would dual wielding have other than being cosmetic? If it's just for looks then that's alright, but at the same time, why should we make it if we can just do the same thing without it?

This isn't to say I don't believe in a weapon in our left hand. I think having parrying blade or reactive/mirror shields would be a wonderful way to incorporate "dual wielding" into Spiral Knights. Parrying blades would counterattack upon taking a hit, using its shield health in the process. Reactive shields would explode upon being depleted, and mirror shields would deflect projectiles. These all play into what we currently have in the game, but add some new interesting and useful mechanics, and on top of that it allows for more class diversity and advanced shieldplay!

Thu, 02/23/2017 - 04:02

#11

Avsmanfred

Giving explanation i was asked for

So speaking of useing dula weilding in Lockdown, well i tought that the recons cloack or strikers booster could be set under shield bash action which is diabled in Lockdown, also it could be set under single button not the button combo, in that case we would get simple solution for that problem. For guardians, well i think that when they start dual wielding their sheild on back could work like Darkfang Thwackers shields.

Also about all shield tricks, i know about them, i know they're important to end-game playstyle, and to any defense at all, so playing without shield would be boring, of coures, but it could be only one of the options, something we could do if we want, or abandond this playstyle if we're bored of it. Also here goes what i told about balance of this itself, without sheild you can't bump enemies away, you can't defend yourself from many hazards, so you need to keep avoiding attacks by movement instead of useing shield, what is usually much more dificult(probbly all swiftstrike buckler users can confirm that) what means that even if we could have more power, we would need to put much more effort in useing it efficiently.

Also about dual wielding bombs, well that could be strange, but ability to charge 2 diffrent bombs at once... sounds tempting

Mon, 02/27/2017 - 07:22

#12

Strayed-Faris

woof

@Fangel

Oh, I get it now. xD

Touche, pardner.

@Avsmanfred

lol.

*Dual-wielding in lockdown

1- Lockdown abilities replace shields

2- Dual-wielding replaces shields.

So, you can't have dual-wielding if you want lockdown abilities and vice versa.

*Dual-wielding in general

"It would balance itself!" Notice how we use one weapon just fine all the time? That means our weapons weren't meant for dual-wielding, meaning they would need to be tweaked/balanced to be used in dual-wielding. So, your point is invalid.

"We will have more power but we'll need to dodge carefully!" We already do this all the time with things like Chaos + Swiftstrike. Hence, "more dodging" isn't a penalty and we don't need more damage. We have weapons that are strong on their own, two of them would be just overpowered.
((edit)) Just realized that the above sounds scrambled. What I meant was: Dodging isn't going to stop people from being overpowered if you're letting them break the game.

"You wouldn't be able to shield bump, shield cancel, etc!" In my opinion, losing these features isn't interesting. Those things are exactly what makes combat in SK fun. If you don't like them, just don't use your shield.

"It's an option!" This point gets you nowhere.

"We have two hands, so we should be able to use two weapons!" Hahaha, no.

*Dual-wielding bombs

You can't dual-wield bombs because it takes two hands to charge one bomb.

If you can't dual-wield bombs, then you shouldn't be able to dual-wield anything else. In other words, new combat/game mechanics that apply to one class, should be applied to all classes.

tl;dr= the game wasn't designed for dual-wielding. deal with it, homie.

Sat, 02/25/2017 - 07:52

#13

Avsmanfred

Ehhh...

Honetly, saying that game wast desinged for something dosen't mean that it can't evolve, seen plenty of games that changed over time and they adapted features they weren't desinged for, somtimes for good sometimes for worse, it depends on how developers solved it.

So saying that lack of shield itself won't balance it then there can be penatlies like 2X charge time when dual wiedling or lower attack speed, nothing special, we already have such things in game just use them properly, to make this balanced.

About unability to dual wield bombs, well thats honetly the matter of animation, small redesing and they could be dual wielded.

And about Lockdown told already, abilities could replace shield bash ability instead of shield itself, it could be very good use of a feature that is now is exclusieve for PvE in PvP

I think you should stop looking at this like something that could ruin exisitng sytem but rather like something that could be nice introduction of new one, games are changing, evolving, they need to to remain interesting and atrract new players, this game needs to evolve too, maybe this feature won't make it's way trought, but it shouldn't be treated like bad idea, this game has potential to adapt to it, everything that matters is how to balance it.

Sat, 02/25/2017 - 13:40

#14

Strayed-Faris

woof

It's nothing personal, mate. I think of all us here as friends. You have got your heart on the right spot, however,

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/116388

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/102917

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/93127

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/992

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/116494

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/111287

For more examples google: "Spiral Knights" + "Dual wielding"

This suggestion has been shot down several times, mainly due to it being too complex and it wouldn't be worth the time making it work. Spiral Knights doesn't need dual-wielding to evolve. It's potential lies in its current gameplay which should be expanded on rather than changed completely.

tl;dr= No. :^)

Sun, 02/26/2017 - 07:14

#15

Avsmanfred

Times have changed

you know most of thouse topic are form times when game was still under SEGA's charge, an thier policy of treating fan concepts, or soon after it got freed and devs had to establish servers, now SEGA is no more, and Grey Heavens promised in New Year annoucment that they will be reading aourr suggestions, so i think this ide might not be hopeless, ok i understand that ther's a lot of work with it both in graphics and programing, but we will see, after all this is developers decision if they'll accept this idea or not, up to us is to give them suggestion how to do it in rather simple way that wouldn need too drastic changes.

Also when i think about changes in game i've been withnes of, Battle Sprites, dash and Shield Bash, removl of Mist energy and free elevator, this things changed this game stongly, at the begining of their existance we were afriad of them a bit or considered them pointless, but later we got used to them, and they became the everyday part of our gameplay, i think that if dual wielding could make it's way trought, it would be the same situation.

Sun, 02/26/2017 - 21:35

#16

Fangel

ehh

There's also a bit of a design ideology behind it.

I believe, at heart, Spiral Knights has been designed to not be "just another fantasy RPG". When you look at the monsters we encounter, every single one of them is interesting or unique. This is due to some of the initial design choices. You'll notice we don't see orcs, or elves, or goblins, etc. Instead, every component of the game is new, unique, and interesting.

In part, this design philosophy carries over elsewhere. Dual wielding is something prevalent in other games, so how can we make it new, unique, and interesting? The boring overused "exchange shield for another weapon" simply doesn't follow that line of thought. However, again, this is when new and unique "shield classes" would prove effective. Right now our shield-play is really limited, and introducing shields that can be used offensively directly would open up some amazing unique avenues. This could even be "use weapon as a shield, and when you shield bash it uses the weapon's charge attack at half power". That's already a new way to dual wield that doesn't branch out where it doesn't need to be.

Dash and Shield Bash were combat updates They weren't mandatory but they way they work (8 second recharge, or half your shield at full health) are definitely on a different level from common things. Removing mist energy was a gameplay change - which is rather unfortunate since they took the time to explain the energy system lore-wise as well. Battle Sprites stemmed from the "pet" suggestion, which evolved into "robotic battle companions that shape shifted to suit their environment". Yeah, you won't see that in any other fantasy MMORPG...

Spiral Knights can continue to change, however it's in its best interest to try new avenues rather than rehashing old ones. There are plenty of games that do that and they all blur into one - Spiral Knights stands out heavily, and making a new experience for everyone is refreshing.

Mon, 02/27/2017 - 12:01

#17

Avsmanfred

Well...

Ok i got the point keeping this games unique style and desing but, well i think it could after all match this game without ruinning it actually i wanted it to be like part of my enthire complex idea for the new combat system but well... to describe it i would need enthirre new topit to don't intercept thias one.

Also if dual wielding isn't that much of a uniqe idea on it's own , i think that if we could have a bit of a free choise which weapons we dual wield it could still be rather uniqe compared to other MMOs which usually treating it more like akimbo weapons(ok maybe i didn't seen so many other MMOs but only one i saw that allowed us to use gun and sword at the same time was Hellgate:Global, which was actually Hellgate:London turned into MMO)

Mon, 03/27/2017 - 14:53

#18

Grimreaperlord

My my..

Has this attracted quite the attention.

I would like to reiterate that the whole concept of it is okay in my opinion. It's not generally unique, by any means, no, but it does sound somewhat neat. This post was originally intended to be a response to the plethora of dual wielding requests that you see on this forum. A dual wielding update might take a few months from now to develop, especially with Grey Havens' content deadlines, they give more content every fortnight. (Yes, everyone says that they're not posting original content, but they're actually trying their hardest, you know... That new St. Patrick's Day Prize Box seemed unique.)

The concept of dual wielding works (except for the aforementioned OP Blitz Needle combo, I suppose), but the technical aspect doesn't. Even if it did, it'd take a very long time to code in. That's all I have to reiterate on this matter.

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The Problem with Dual Wielding Weapons