Spiral Knights - Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.

Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.

88 replies [Last post]

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 01:05

#51

Plaguerider

@Coldtart. Stop talking.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 03:11

#52

Grenze

Listen Coldtart.

Are you really complaining if the Gran Faust actually got a little bit better? I mean just a little, not a game breaking improvement? Like maybe a second less in charging or 25-50 damage per swing more maybe.That's it. Not you know a complete revamp to change the sword completely? Like if you are great with it now wouldn't a extra second taken of the charge actually be really useful to you without seeming huge?

Also the players mistake thing is what the point is, I have to make less mistakes to be good, which is fine but for something so punishing it's not rewarding enough. It's rewarding yes, it's not horrible it's just could be nice to see a small buff. Is that really so bad to see the Gran Faust, Triglav and Saduruska see a small improvement to make them feel more pick-able in any situation to compete with the Divine Avenger by any player so Heavy swords actually feel as useful and rewarding to be used as any other blade?

Mind you this isn't a thread saying Heavy Swords need to be worse it's just a small improvement would be nice for anyone who spent money, or loads of time on getting a Gran Faust, Triglav or Saduruska. Is that really so game breaking? It's not saying other swords need to be nerfed, it's asking for a small buff.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 03:18

#53

Grenze

Also for the Millionth time.

The Triglav and Saduruska NEED TO BE BETTER. Why is the Leviathan Blade so popular if it only kinda fits every situation? Why do people dump millions of crowns into it if the Brandishes can fit the "perfect situation" huh? I'm sorry if the Triglav and Sadurska can kinda fit they need a use too and for some reason the Leviathan Blade which would be on the same level except all it does is damage at all is better then them IMMENSELY which is sad.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 04:15

#54

Quotefanboy

All I can say is this.

If you can say, with a straight face, that:
"Some weapons are going to be worse then others, in every way possible, and that's okay. We don't need to balance them, or tweak them, to make them better. That's a bad idea, because they should stay bad."
Then, in all honesty, I don't know what I can say to you. That level of ignorance is just too much for me to argue against.

I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just saying to those who do.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 06:16

#55

Plaguerider

I don't know what to tell you

I don't know what to tell you Quotefanboy because that is all I'm hearing coming from Coldtart's end.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 07:26

#56

Quotefanboy

Listen...

I'm not here to personally attack anybody, and Coldtart raised good points. He raised good points on the Gran Faust, and how that weapon is good. He's defending it, and I respect that, but here's the deal.

I'm not saying the Gran Faust horrible, I'm saying it's nearly no competition to the Divine Avenger.
Right now, if someone had a sealed sword, and was able to hold both swords to test which one he wanted to keep the chance of him keeping the Divine Avenger would be quite high.

Now, I understand, making that sword's Curse rate jump from Fair to Good would probably be game breaking. I understand that changing its charge to shoot more blades, or hit more, might break it. Anything to make this sword even to the Divine Avenger would make this sword just as Over powered, and nerfing the divine avenger isn't what I'm asking to make this weapon on par with it either.

I don't want it to be on par with the Divine Avenger, because being on par with an overpowered weapon makes it overpowered, but simply I want it to be competition.
Simply put, I want the Gran Faust to actually be something to consider instead of shotgunblade master race.

Like you said, Coldtart, the main power of the gran faust comes from its combo, especially its second swing. Why don't we show that? Why don't we buff the combo damage up a bit to where, even against neutral enemies, it does more damage then the Divine Avenger.
"But then the Divine Avenger would suck in comparison because it does less damage to everything besides 2 enemies"
Incorrect, the power from the Divine Avenger would come from the charge, still. I mean, sure, I can 2 swing this monster for 40-60 more total damage, or I can have a shotgun blade this entire room of enemies.
It makes people who don't care about charge attacks actually have something to use. Right now, it can curse, which is nice, but you can either have a slightly decent curse rate, or the ability to shotgun when necessary. Most people will, and have, chosen the shotgun over that curse on the second swing.

A small encouragement on the comboing aspect of the Gran faust, small mind you, is all I ask.
I know I sound like I'm repeating myself, but if asking for this is too much then I don't know what else to say. This isn't asking for much, this is very minor.

Then there's the other 2 swords, the Sudaruska and the Triglav, which need something on their own. I mean these things should be the Levi blades of heavy swords with a bit of element to them. That way, they're completely neutral and good for everything, but with a taste of element to add as a kicker. Right now, they're bad. In both combo, and in charge. It needs to be fixed. They weren't weapons created to be bad. Weapons in Spiral knights aren't created to be a waste of time, effort, and money. Yet, right now, these weapons are, when you compare them to other weapons like the Leviathan blade and the Gran Faust / Divine Avenger, inferior. You can't deny their, not uselessness, but inferiority, and inferior weapons should be tweaked to make them "on level" with other weapons of their caliber. On level, not better, just par. Right now, they're not par.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 09:33

#57

Birgus

Troika: fun to use, but underpowered

The only heavy sword I have experience with is my new Troika, (which I am enjoying, BTW) and the only other swords I've used often and recently enough to be able to compare are at 3-star, so bear that in mind. I can't say much about DPS since I don't remember so well how the Snarbie was at 2-star, but I do remember being amazed at how much more DPS I got from the Snarbie than the Calibur... I'm also trying a heavy gun, the Magnus, and it is definitely much less powerful than the lighter Pulsar. Magnus has special features that make it useful, though. Troika does not, though I hear that it did before a nerf. :(

I don't see heavy swords as being more or less defensive than lighter swords, just defensive in different ways. My Troika has better reach and knockback than my Nightblade and Shockburst, but it also leaves me open for longer and slows me down more. Sometimes one way is better, sometimes the other is, but my Twisted Snarbie feels like the best of both worlds. Its animations are quick, its reach is surprisingly good, and it swats monsters away really hard. I'd say the most defensive swords are the Piercing ones, particularly Snarbie line due to charge attack. The other two types I've tried are apples and oranges, so I don't know how to rank them "objectively." The Snarbie feels overpowered to me, so does any one with much experience with both the Sealed Sword type (particularly DA) and the Snarbie/Flourish types have many thoughts on how they compare? (in any way you have thoughts on, not just defense or overall utility/overpoweredness)

I think the Troika feels underpowered because it feels like it takes forever to kill things yet I don't really have an easier time avoiding damage. The result seems to be that I end up taking more damage since I get more time to make mistakes or suffer a lag spike. To minimise the added danger of slow animations I mostly shield-cancel on the first swing, using its first swing basically the same way I use the first two for a lighter sword. The damage per swing is nowhere remotely near double, so DPS suffers. What good is higher single-hit damage if I can only get one hit in where with another sword I'd be getting two? Sure, there are times where I'd only get one hit with a fast sword, but those are a minority for me AND for a lot of those situations I'd get no hits with a slower one anyway (or, rather, none without getting hurt myself) so the lighter sword still comes out ahead. The increased defensive value of reach and knockback is being traded about evenly for not being able to dodge or shield as quickly, but also being payed for again in overall movement and damage output! If I go for a full combo, it gets even worse since I'm still behind on DPS but now get huge windows of vulnerability and the full combo is also slower than for a Brandish.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 09:41

#58

Avixi

What I'd really like to see

What I'd really like to see done with Suda and Triglav (I have both) is to reduce the first swing's knockback, increase charge attack AoE size, and a slight overall increase in damage, because right now i may as well just bring a leviathan everywhere since that out damages either of them easily.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 02:01

#59

Quotefanboy

I'm still curious...

Why the Sudaruska was nerfed with its charge. I mean, that weapon of all things? Really?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 02:28

#60

Plaguerider

From what I heard it was a random spike that appeared and did damage and knockback, of all the thing why is that considered OP and worth removing, when you have somethign like 3 gigantic sword beams popping out of nowhere?

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 15:24

#61

Decibel

oh wow guys cool it jeez

I'm not sure if someone corrected the OP but the Faust and Gran Faust have the exact same attack speed as the Sudaruska/Triglav/Divine Avenger. The in-game bars lie. It's because the sword data is modified from the Proto Sword and the Speed bar wasn't adjusted accordingly. You can test if you like.

Also yes, calling for a minor buff on heavy swords, so that their damage/status compensates for their speed and charge time. That or balance the light/heavy sword differences.

*Also, Grenze, 4* and 5* weapon damage are nerfed in T2 and below, hence your results.

Mon, 10/03/2011 - 16:33

#62

Grenze

If that is the only point

If that is the only point someone has on me I'm finito. Mind you the gap still exists so it's still sad. Now if I get a Glacuis I know fully my Heavy swords aren't worth it. Cause I can go in Tier 3 and do the same damn thing as I did in Tier 2 except it'll almost be the same number as the Divine Avenger in one swing respectively.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 16:45

#63

Nodocchi

@Quotefanboy "I'm not saying

@Quotefanboy
"I'm not saying the Gran Faust horrible, I'm saying it's nearly no competition to the Divine Avenger."
First you complain about people using the Divine Avenger as the backbone of their argument, then you use it for your own. A bit hypocritical don't you think?

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but though heavy swords are hard to use and punishing if used incorrectly, they are by far the most rewarding if used well. Yes, it does take more time to learn to use a heavy sword well compared to lighter swords, but the time spent is worth it.

Do I think heavy swords are weaker than other swords enough that they require a buff? No. Why? Because there are merits to heavy swords and there are merits to lighter swords. What you all are doing is comparing the strong points of light swords to the weaknesses of heavy swords. Damage per second and speed are the main selling points of light swords, and if that is what you are into, then get a light sword. Those are not the main selling points of heavy swords though, and it is pointless to try to make heavy swords into something they are not. Main selling points of heavy swords for me are their range and burst damage. I mean yeah, due to the faster speed of the lighter swords they are going to do more damage over time than heavy swords, but if you want to do a lot of damage to a lot of monsters really quickly, heavy swords are the way to go. If that play style doesn't agree with you, then I don't even know why you are using heavy swords in the first place.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 18:00

#64

Grenze

Buffs are gamebreaking and Heavy Sword users hate help.

So because of this they don't deserve a buff, not even the awful Triglav and Saduruska which honestly get topped everywhere even in their own category being Heavy Swords. The Gran Faust definitely couldn't use a second shaved off the charge time cause I mean waiting like 5 seconds with Charge Time Reduction very high is awesome. The Triglavs once in a Blue Moon Freeze rate is just wonderful. The Saduruskas stun rate only being on it's charge and that's only one hit compared to everything else which inflicts a status effect with a good chance and hitting multiple times. The pushback is totally worth it not considering shields do it to. But as I'm told since I own 3 of the 4 my opinion doesn't matter as I main Heavy Swords and should know what I'm talking about but people reasoning for saying a buff for Heavy Sword users is game breaking is cause they are good with them, mind you a buff would help them but they don't need help in anyway.

So in short the Triglav and Saduruska need to stay unusable compared to every other weapon in the game, mind they are still useable but you can get a weapon much better then the both of them. Also the Gran Faust taking an over exaggerated hour to do it's charge which doesn't work on Undead, Trees, and Fiends excluding Wings and the Butterfly things, meanwhile the Divine Avenger sends 3 laser beams of death in like 2 seconds or less. And as someone earlier said if the Saduruska old charge was so gamebreakingly OP making a random rock hit something why is the Divine Avenger said to be balanced. But no because SOME people are good with Heavy Swords and a BUFF would HELP and BENEFIT them directly, it's gamebreaking because help is for chumps, now time to enjoy some silly accessories coming out so I can look like a crazy nutjob using my Triglav which sucks but I can't get rid of it and it doesn't deserve a buff.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 18:37

#65

Nodocchi

While I am not adverse to a

While I am not adverse to a buff on heavy swords myself, since I am a heavy sword user, I do not think it is necessary. If heavy swords do get a buff, what is stopping other people from complaining that their weapons also need a buff? Then all weapons would be stronger and the game would become too easy and people will be complaining about that. Then the monsters get buffed and the whole cycle starts all over again. The point is, there is no way to objectively measure how powerful a weapon is, everything is decided in relation to other weapons and monsters. By giving a small buff to heavy swords, you are not only making heavy swords stronger, but also everything else weaker by comparison.

There are weapons with good charge attacks and weapons with bad charge attacks, most heavy swords happen to be in the latter category but that does not make them unusable.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 19:11

#66

Grenze

Fine whatever Triglav and

Fine whatever Triglav and Saduruska need to be deleted from game. I'm done with this. They get outmatched by the Gran Faust and Divine Avenger, they're charges are outmatched by everything but the cutter series which needs an improvement as well, they get out damaged by every other 5 star sword, they get out status inflicted rates by every other weapon that inflicts status. Only good thing at all about the Saduruska and then Triglav is pushback which a shield can do. As for the Gran Faust, compared to the Faust it's not worth the crap "upgrade." If every other weapon besides the one b&tched about the most is fine and only the ones with the most complaints get complaints then this game isn't balanced. You say buffs would be unbalancing and I say this game is unbalanced as all hell. The Triglav and Saduruska can't compete with any weapon in this damn game besides 4 Star weapons. You say enemies would become easier then they'd have to get harder then fine get rid of the useless weapons if they can't be buffed, there is no utility to the Normal Damage Heavy swords or Damage bonus even compared to the Sealed Sword line and if going from 5 seconds to 4 seconds for a Gran Faust is so Overpowered then make the Divine Avenger charge time longer.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 19:23

#67

Grenze

All complaints and with this many there is something wrong.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19771

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/20209

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19923

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/26561

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19761

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/26883

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19955

If I found this in 3 minutes without trying this game isn't balanced and I could go on and on with more thread even about other things besides the Triglav and Saduruska this game isn't balanced stop fooling yourselves.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 19:40

#68

Nodocchi

The normal damage heavy

The normal damage heavy swords are better than the Gran Faust against undead and devilites and better than the Divine Avenger against beasts and gremlins. If a gun or bomb user wanted a heavy sword for when monsters get too close, a normal damage heavy sword would be a safe bet since it does reliable damage against all monster types. Now this may seem like a niche role, but I don't see what is wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with niche weapons that fill specific roles, not all weapons have to be useful for everything.

Tue, 10/04/2011 - 20:01

#69

Grenze

If there are 5 Star swords

If there are 5 Star swords that can fit all situation or more then other and some that have to fit small situations like that then fine this game is balanced cause that sounds like balance to me.

"a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc. " The definition of balance and there is no equilibrium, if there are many things that are flat out better and more used because they are better this isn't balanced.

By chance do you use the Triglav? Did you work the many hours of PVP games and spend all the energy and crowns to acquire such a weapon? Did you sit down and realize you were flat out ripped off because a weapon that says it's a ice mountain can barely cool my soda on a hot day?

Did you sit there and construct a entire set for a Divine Avenger? No, cause it doesn't need a set to make it good but I did this with my Gran Faust and got as much Curse resist as I could just to make it useful. I had to make a set of items to make a Sword completely worth it over some. Meanwhile the more popular blades are great on their own and just get better when built around.

There shouldn't be weapons like the Triglav that fit such small situations as you just where you have to work like all unholy hell to get. That is the very definition of Hard Work for Low Reward. Low amount of situation to use it, high amounts of work to obtain it.

This is asking for a buff because especially the Triglav and Saduruska have no utility and are outclassed. They both inflict status which rarely happens, they both have a suicidal charge for low damage, they both are slow as hell, and they don't even have the benefits of massive crit damage.

By a buff I mean fixing these broken weapons. I mean curse affecting trees, Sword bullets not colliding with walls behind you, misleading speed bars, inflicting status effects on the 1st and 2nd swing and the charge, fix the suicidal charge attacks on the Troikas for little effectiveness. These count as bug fixes and a buff cause they'd become more useful.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 04:42

#70

Quotefanboy

@Nodocci

"The normal damage heavy swords are better than the Gran Faust against undead and devilites and better than the Divine Avenger against beasts and gremlins."

I can understand what you're getting at, but that's the issue of which we're having a problem with here.

If you're comparing the Sudaruska and the Triglav to the Levi blade, and put them back to back, you'll notice that the roles that should be done have nothing to them.

The Sudaruska and the Triglav have an element, which means their element should be a part of their weapon and reliability, but to what I've noticed the stun on the Sudaruska is decent, but the damage is lacking, and the Freeze on the Triglav is near non-existant while the damage is also lacking.
Then you bring out the leviathan blade, and charge up, and you just watch all that knock back, damage, and most likely killed enemies hit the walls.

What we're trying to get here is that the Sudaruska and the Triglav don't do their job as they should. I'm always going to bring out the Levi blade as an example because that weapon is the top-tier normal-damage weapon. It's basically the example of what all normal blades can, and should, do. Good to everything, but not the best.

The Triglav does decent, same with the Sudaruska, but nothing near what the the Levi blade does. I can't say how good the Sudaruska charge is, because I don't see it often due to no one I know owning it, but I can guarantee the Triglav's isn't that good. It leaves you more open, it barely freezes, and its hitbox is quite the strange one for a single hit that isn't even impressive. I think a blade that can only hit once should either:
A.) Do more damage, especially when you compare its damage to the levi blade's damage which can hit up to 3 times for nearly the same damage on a single hit.
B.) Have its element be a part of its weapon, not a fluke.

Also, I may not know the Sudaruska well, but I can damn well ensure it's not as useful, not even nearly as useful, as the Leviathan blade's charge attack. The selling point of that sword should be its charge, with it's charge having the only way to stun and all, and it doesn't seem that impressive to me.

Heck, the Sudaruska was nerfed to no longer have its rocks anymore. You can't really say, with a straight face without lying to yourself, that the nerf on that sword was necessary when you have swords like the Divine Avenger and the Leviathan Blade running about willy nilly.

I know I sound like this is a repeat of what I've said before, but this wall hasn't been broken yet, and it's my main argument that I'm going to bring to the table.

@Grenze: I find it funny how, in all of those threads, where they say nearly the same things I've asked get all this support and imaginary "+1's", but our thread gets disliked lol.
I'm not a good salesman :C

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 13:40

#71

Nodocchi

@Quotefanboy You're comparing

@Quotefanboy
You're comparing the Sudaruska and the Triglav to the swords with two of the best charge attacks in the game, namely the Leviathan and the Divine Avenger, so of course it is going to seem lacking. All other charge attacks seem lacking when compared with those two. So rather than buffing a small segment of the other swords wouldn't it make more sense to nerf Divine Avengers and Leviathan blades? And not everyone thinks that the selling point of the Sudaruska and Triglav are their charge attacks, that is only you and a couple other people who are wishing for the heavy blades to be something they are not.

@Grenze
Next time I suggest you do a bit more research before pouring so much resources into a few weapons you know nothing about. You should already know whether you'll like the heavy swords or not based on their 3* versions, saying that you wasted so much money upgrading them and other gear to 5* is just you being lazy and not making sure you actually like the sword you're using before upgrading it. Also, the only examples of better weapons you have are Divine Avengers and Leviathans, yeah, everyone knows they're good, no need to beat a dead horse.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 14:18

#72

Plaguerider

@Nodocchi I think you are

@Nodocchi
I think you are really missing the point. How about this. The Triglav and Sudaruska charge can be said to be just about the worst charge IN THE GAME. And this really sucks, seeing as how they are 5* weapons. And if at that point you go, well I'll just use the basic swing! Well you know what? There are two other swords with the same swing, but greater charge. Honestly. No buff should equal a deletion of these swords. End of story. I really think you need to try to before you continue to dispute us.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 14:38

#73

Quotefanboy

Yes, I know, but that's the point.

I understand those weapon's charges are overpowered, but when there's weapons like that why do these weapons exist? They need to be bumped up to, not their level, but enough to where they're considered competition.

I mean everything from the brandish line isn't very lacking at all. Good damage initial swing, and 2-3 explosions. All of those hits having a good chance to inflict element, blowing back for good damage, and then if you have the Acheron it's just raw damage with a better rate for 3 explosions.
Granted, that may not be as good as the levi blade or the DA, but those weapons are respectable.
The Flourish too, plus Snarble weapon. The flourish can inflict every swing, and they hit fast, plus their charges are pretty good too. The snarby probably being better then the final flourish, in my opinion, but their situations are still met. They're still respectable and competition.
Besides, the DA's charge's usefulness is in its knockback. If you took that away, it'd be useless, and if you lower the damage, all you'd do is make the fight last longer. The levi-blade is good as well, but it has nothing in it but power, and it does that job very well. We shouldn't be looking on how to make swords worse, but how to make other swords better. I understand what you're getting at, but why make things harder when we can make things easier?

and no, I'm not saying their selling point is their charge attacks, I'm saying the Sudaruska can only stun with its charge, which is a single hit, and it's not even impressive. The stun is almost supposed to be the selling point, because it's obviously it's losing power to gain that stun, but it's only able to be done on the charge. A single hit, weak hitting, charge. That charge, since it does one hit, should either have MASSIVE aoe, much larger then what it is, or have great damage for its single hit.

I mean, hell, how good do you think those charges are anyway? Do you really think they're good? Because, if you do, there's something I have to tell you. You're dead wrong. They're horrible. They're straight up horrible. Low damage, High risk, barely a reward. If you're going to scream at me pushback, then I'm sorry I'd rather block push them away.

The Triglav is the same way. Tbe selling point on it should be its freeze, because its damage is getting hindered because of it right? Yet it can only do freeze with a SLIGHT rate, on a single swing. Even its charge is a single hit.

I understand that, when comparing things to the leviathan blade, weapons don't look impressive, but that's just the thing. I can compare this [freaking] thing to the brandish, or the flourish, or any other weapon line (aside from spur, but that weapon line stops at 4star), and still give you results.

Example: I was told that the Fearless rigadoon can stun every hit. This fast as heck weapon has a slight stun rate every hit, first second and third hit. It has much of a stun rate as the Triglav's freeze, but it can happen every hit. Every. Hit. Combining that fact with speed? I mean come on, the fire one has fair on every hit. Why should these things, these slow hulking monsters, be put into the same area as the flourish when it comes to rate? Actually, it's worse, because the stun on the Suda only works on charge, not on their swings, and the triglav only has a slight, but on its second slow as hell swing? Sure, that second swing can hit a lot of people, but most of the time you can't utilize that. Plus, i've seen him hit an entire arena of people with that second swing over 2-3 times and only freeze 1 or 2 people. Do you really consider that fair?

Example B: The glacius can freeze up to 4 times, usually 3 (swing + 2-3 explosions). Their charges give you less of an opening, ALMOST the same damage, and more radius with every hit having a GOOD chance. GOOD. NOT SLIGHT. GOOD. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous?

Plus, I've asked multiple times for even a 20-30% damage increase overall. Nothing big, to where it out damages 3 strikes, but enough to bump it up. I've asked for buff, or the bringing back of some lost things (aka rocks on suda), on charges. I'm not asking to buff only their charges, I'm asking for anything. I'm begging for anything. I don't care what it is, just something. Any kind of improvement.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 14:41

#74

Niichi

@Nodocchi You don't need to

@Nodocchi

You don't need to compare the charge attacks of the troika line swords to the top tier charge attacks to see how bad they are. On their own merits alone they're horrible. They leave you wide open, lack any kind of AoE, poor effect infliction and miserable damage output considering all those traits.

I really don't see how a buff to the charge attacks is a bad thing. We don't need to bring them onto the same level as a divine avenger but giving them a charge attack worth using (even if the only thing is a damage spike to make it a worthwhile high risk high damage move) would be useful in encouraging their use (and with the Triglav line it would potentially encourage more PvP games as people need to earn the coins for the recipes).

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 15:09

#75

Renpartycat

>implying you know anything about balance

In all seriousness, Sudaruska and Triglav need an AoE effect added to their charge when they slam it in the ground.

As for heavy swords in general, they need better recovery time because their DPS is inferior to 3-strike swords. Mind you, I'm talking about every heavy sword that's not the Divine Avenger. So please, stop using the "Divine Avenger" counter in your arguments before I ram that blade so far up your....

And let me say this right now: Charge attacks on ANY weapon do not matter unless you have Ultra or Maximum CTR because if you can't charge fast enough, you can do just as much damage or even more with normal attacks. And THAT is why CTR UVs cost so much.

Moving on, I'd like to say that Heavy Swords are nice weapons, but they are indeed underpowered. I myself have used many heavy swords. A really good amount of em to understand everything about them. Some might say that heavy swords are "Defensive swords", while others might say they're meant for offense. In all honesty, heavy swords are supposed to be used like this: Offensively on crowds, defensive on single targets. Because that second swing can hit an entire room if you do it right, because that's not not a charge attack, that's a second swing.

In all honesty, all heavy swords except for the Divine Avenger are not useless, but they're not as reliable as every other sword out there. And by this, I mean that heavy swords have their purpose, as well as potential and decency, but they just happen to always get outclassed by 3-strike swords which makes them feel like a waste. The reason why is due to the sheer fact that 3-strike swords are not only faster, but have a much less risk factor in comparison with heavy swords, because with shield cancelling, one can easily dish out fast combos and good knockback with their shield pushing abilities, combined with their low-risk fighting ability, make them feel downright superior to heavy swords.

Even without shield cancelling, heavy swords are always outclassed by 3-strike swords. But to see how deadly a 3-strike sword is with shield cancelling, one of my friends with a glacius was able to sweep enemies away while never getting hit. Things like lumbers, scuttlebots, undead, gremlins, gun puppies and even kats, devilites and phantoms, which are some of the most annoying and deadly enemies in the game. You might think that shield cancelling would work better on heavy swords, but it doesn't.

Before I get the argument or counter that some of you think shield cancelling is an exploit, which it isn't, I've said this before: 3-strike swords always outclass heavy swords due to their low risk factor, combined with their above-average damage and great speed. On the other hand, heavy swords have a much higher risk factor, less speed and great damage. But it's risk factor AND slow speed can't be compensated for it's damage. Which is why I'm proposing that we give all heavy swords except for the Divine Avenger, a better charge attack and more recovery time. Base damage doesn't matter, and neither does damage type, nor changing whatever status effect a weapon can do. We need to upgrade the charge attacks and give heavy swords a buffed recovery time.

As I've stated above, the Triglav and Sudaruska's charge attacks can be improved if they caused an AoE when a knight slams it on the ground. Quite similar to the Sealed Sword's AoE charge attack.

However, until Three Rings decides to revamp heavy swords by upgrading their recovery time and charge attacks, heavy swords will ALWAYS be outclassed by every other sword out there. And for the last time, I am NOT talking about the Divine Avenger. The Divine Avenger does not apply to this discussion. If you use the Divine Avenger in your replies, arguments or counters to this thread then you are obviously trolling and need to just get the heck out of here.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 18:12

#76

Plaguerider

"However, until Three Rings

"However, until Three Rings decides to revamp heavy swords by upgrading their recovery time and charge attacks, heavy swords will ALWAYS be outclassed by every other sword out there. And for the last time, I am NOT talking about the Divine Avenger. The Divine Avenger does not apply to this discussion. If you use the Divine Avenger in your replies, arguments or counters to this thread then you are obviously trolling and need to just get the heck out of here."

Thankyou! Exactly what we have been saying.

Wed, 10/05/2011 - 22:42

#77

Grenze

HEY GUYS THIS IS ALL USELESS

Go accessories, no balancing at all, no new levels no lag improvements but we have Crates from Tf2. I'm done with the suggestions thread because no matter what we debate, no matter how much we complain we are going to get accessories in place of bug fixes, and weapon balancing. And yeah the Triglav being encouraged to be used means more people would spend energy to get it. Which helps the community and 3 Rings. BUT WHO CARES I CAN GET GOGGLES SO ALL IS FINE BE RIGHT BACK GAME CRASHING CAUSE OF HATS.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 03:54

#78

Coldtart

I still maintain that the

I still maintain that the basic combo of a 2 hit sword is enough for 95% of situations, but I'll talk about the objectively worse swords this time.

Suda and Trig are definitely below par as far as I can see without having used them myself. Levi can be used instead of brandishes thanks to its brutal charge attack letting it muscle through its inability to deal damage on enemy weaknesses, but Suda and Trig get the slowest, hardest to aim and least safe charge attack of any swords in the game. It definitely seems a bit weak when a DA or GF can almost deal as much damage with their charges on things that resist them if the projectile hits 3 times. And all for what? Stun or freeze? When DA has a room clearingly large danger zone and GF has curse.

As for GF, while I don't think it particularly needs to be better, I would support giving it the same charge time as DA. Self-curse is a good enough drawback.

Lets all remember that heavy swords trade single target dps for aoe knockback. They're supposed to help with not getting hit, not with killing things faster.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 05:05

#79

Grenze

@ Coldtart

Thank you.....but guess what.......it doesn't matter. Cause now due to hats I can't play due to crashes so I don't even have the urge to argue but at least finally some who I had argue with is agreeing with me in some senses that yes 3 of the 4 Heavy Swords could use a nice quaint buff. But like I said it doesn't matter we have hats and visors and goggles and I have the inability to play the game.

Thank you all for your time which we all wasted.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 05:14

#80

Quotefanboy

@ Coldtart

Now was that so hard?

I can agree that the swings on the sword aren't my main priority, but you basically said what I'd like.
The Triglav and the Sudaruska being helped, and the Gran Faust obtaining a charge time decrease. Not a big one, but enough of one.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 10:06

#81

Quotefanboy

Way to balance two weapons at once:

Switch the charge time of the Divine Avenger and the Gran faust.

The Divine Avenger is OP because of its charge, so lets make it longer so it takes longer to get that rewarding cleaning of the crowd.

The Faust is decent, not bad but could be better, so lets make its charge attack as long as the Divine Avenger is now.

This way:
Divine avenger gets the charge time nerfed, so it becomes more balanced, and the Faust is able to throw out giant curse swords more frequently, curing yourself and others crazily like the double edge sword was meant to be.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 17:39

#82

Ysser

sigh

Switching the charge times of the DA and the GF is not an effective "solution".

Say it's implemented...

So the GF has a shorter charge time now - great! Except don't forget, there's a chance of Cursing yourself with every charge, even while stacking Curse resist. Only reckless players will continue to spam GF charge attacks while it's Cursed. It will kill you. Also, the curse status on enemies is unbelievably effective - that's why only vials or the GF can curse enemies. To be able to spam the GF's charge would be pretty OP.

So the DA has a longer charge time now - look at that, people are still using it, because it's a powerful elemental sword with strong knockback. The charge attack is still worth using. You have achieved nothing.

The reason I put the word "solution" between quotation marks is because a solution implies there's a problem. I don't think the DA needs to be nerfed. It's a popular choice because the only T3 boss stratum at present is populated with undead. Being popular is not grounds for nerfing. Many choose to use 5* Brandishes because of the status and superior mobility; the DA is not the be-all-end-all of swords.

I wouldn't be bothered by a minor increase in the DA's charge time (for whatever reason), nor would a minor decrease in the GF's charge time (to make it more "attractive" as a weapon choice) unbalance the whole game. But asking for radical solutions to something that isn't even an issue is taking it a bit far. Simply decreasing the GF's charge time would solve most of people's complaints.

While agree the Sudaruska and Triglav need some serious buffing to at least put them on-par with other swords, I don't think the DA and GF are in any desperate need of tweaking.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 22:49

#83

Plaguerider

Question

Does releasing a charge hurt you? I don't think so....
And are you kidding me? NO! The Divine Avenger isn't just popular because of Vanaduke. It is popular because it's charge has the most power and use in the game.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 06:04

#84

The-Big-Wallet

no, it does not

but he reffers to the curse status of GF... and that does hurt a LOT, believe me.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 10:48

#85

Plaguerider

so shield charge. Problem =

so shield charge. Problem = solved.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 14:47

#86

Leafblader

@ Coldart

I think The Combuster/Glacius/Voltedge/Archeron has the best charge in the game.
That is just my opinion.
Also Quotefanboy The archeron explosions can hit more than once so the charge can do more damage than a gran faust charge attack.

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 14:49

#87

Shue-Donnym

Now I see the world through Diamond Eyes!

...
...
...
THE KNIFE DEMANDS BLOOD

Tue, 04/24/2012 - 15:28

#88

Skold-The-Drac

Er....

Gran Faust needs it's charge changed. (lessen charge time and up the chance on monsters)
DA is apparently fine as is...
Triglav and Suda need a far more 'sweeping' attack or much stronger damage. A toothpick has larger range than I do and a levi blade gets more kb... that my friend is bull.

I'm a heavy sword user in 3* so I've only dealt with sealed and my triglav... but I've seen the other swords used. DA's charge is spammed, Gran Faust is wielding a derp run sword (should actually get a more indestructible bullet, and it curses it's user 60% of the time, even when they have curse resist max it's a pain.) and wielding either troika line is asking to be hit by enemies without the piddly shield of speed attatched or an ASI increase.

Search

Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.