Strongly against this update.
Suggestion: Make it completely free like any other gates.
Any gate should be available for 10ce IMO.

People let just join forces: anyone who got an Lockbox or have some of them, remove them from the AH and keep them for a long time. as we see OOO really dont care what we said, what we do, and what ever good feedback (good ideas has been posted and hey! they dont care). just keep any supply of iron lockboxes for yourself and dont sell it or open it. we have to cut the main stream of CE sinking from lockboxes and help our Fellow Gambling knights away from them we need to save them to waste energy like that and make they change mind of the shadow key.

Avoid any bait to lure us to the weakness. just keep your CE for just normal runs or crafting at least the CE wasted there would be less and would last more than waste them on ironc lock boxes.

DONT TRY YOUR LUCK. even if they stated that Shadow key have greater chance to get than a accesory its just a lie REMEMBER FOR THEM THIS ITS A BUSSINESS chances to get a shadow key its more lower than we dont know what. Trust me: Watch how your wonderful CE Counter goes from 20k to 100 Ce dont WORTH IT. theyre not give you more than a LOW CHANCE to play shadow lair. Avoid open Boxes!!

Spread the message: Cut any main source of lockbox, remove your lockbox from AH and keep them for yourself and /epicfail to any fellow gambler knight opening them.

---"P.S. People, don't give in to the "I WANT IT NOW" urge and buy a ton of silver keys now, just be patient and wait, when the cash dries up OOO will change their system and you will feel better when you do get your shadow key, gambling for a key now will only encourage them to stay with the current system and will not help your fellow players, pull your lockboxes from the AH for now (they may be worth more later ;) ), and if you see someone opening a bunch of boxes /epicfail them, please spread this message in-game."---

Please fix this OOO. :)

There's a reason why I just buy good UV items from other people.
I loathe RNG, especially when the drop rate is not being disclosed.

I still find it amusing the first two days of a giant content patch that only 2 people of the 250 people on my friend's list + 100 guild members, all whom are 5* geared, have dipped their feet into a shadow lair. And those 2 people, told me it was not worth the risk so they will stop doing them for the time being.

Now Chris, let's not attack Biz and Magnus. What do you want them to do? Accumulate more piles of money that they don't need? I doubt 2 or 3 players playing this content will make a big difference.

@ Chris: Always jumping to assumptions as usual.
They did not buy the keys, for your information. They ran with people who had keys, lucky enough. They only ran twice, and their second run they got the Snarb. armor.
:v

+1

As i've said in another thread OOO. This update isn't just bad, but it's offendinding to your player base. I may not be the most big spender in the fanbase, but I do spend some eventually. Since all my respect for you has gone down the drain, I dont think you deserve &$@t

I really hate to have to say what I am about to write out. I really do. It pains me to say this but it is because of this update that I am making this decision. Here's my story.

I, myself, have just crafted a good hefty amount of energy for some nice equipment. Now, this isn't what I am complaining about. That isn't my problem at all. I'm used to this and I understand that OOO has mouths to feed I'm sure. And to be honest, I was about to buy energy. I was gonna buy a nice 10 dollar package again and use it for some runs through tier 3. I was really looking forward to it. But when I got wind of this.... Crap. I'm sorry but even in my vocabulary, the only way I can describe this decision than a heeping pile of feces. I played AdventureQuest Worlds for 2 years and I paid about 100 dollars into memberships and believe me, they can be greedy with their costs for special money-based currency but even they seem minuscule to this poor money making maneuver. I can't help be pushed away from Spiral Knights by this. I have loved so many of your previous releases! Snarbolax, Candlestick Keep, heck, I even liked the accessories even if I wasn't going to participate in it but when this comes around, the word "Miltonious" rings deep within my cranium and brings back such horrid memories of being monopolized just to enjoy one item. This truly breaks my heart, OOO. I am a Whirled player and I have done many Flash fan art of your work of Spiral Knights creatures jsut to show my love of your games but this... This hurts. It really does. I'm sorry but no. I'm taking with the rest of the community and going against this decision. Good luck with the rest of your game.

this was a stupid update aimed at a tiny percentage of players. I agree with all the people hating on shadow keys. That is all.

For the most part, I view shadow lairs as the equivalent of Guild Wars's Underworld/Jade Deep/etc areas; they're both hard, both meant as game ending areas, and they both have toll to gain access to. Except Guild Wars is done right: once you've reached the required per-requisites to enter those areas, the toll usually isn't hard to pay; either through payment to the gods or a scroll to usually does it. It's simple, easy, quick access without too much of a hassle, and MUCH more direct than struggling for a key from an auction house (And not as awkward). As it is, the idea of even obtaining Shadow keys is very intimidating to the player.

DOING those areas, of course, is a different story, since they usually require between an hour to a whole bunch hours (Or days depending on ones work schedule) just to do entirely (Shadow lairs are, obviously, much shorter but still difficult). Now, if you're team or party isn't good or well oiled, chances are you'll struggle and get wiped, and getting wiped in the Underworld means you'll be sent back; and getting sent back means you'll have to pay again to do another try. Hence, the trip won't pay for itself if the party is poorly skilled. Same thing goes for any team of Spiral Knights attmpting a shadow lair, and chances are even GOOD knights might chew a bit of CE while doing them.

Now good, well implemented adventures into the lairs should be able to pay for itself, much like the GW equivelant do; that said, GW's more unique rewards in those areas, such as the Obsidian armor, are purely aesthetic, and are mostly a good way of showing to other players how great I was in doing the Fissure of Woe. A similar thing could be said about the shadow lair's armor set, though obviously the stats should be kept to increase diversity. And for the record, I kinda expected the stats to be balanced but shifted around, not better than some of their equivalents; if Snarby did output more damage than Skolver or Vog, it'd make the game a bit imbalanced (Although if you're going to give the Demo Merc. suit a speed boost over bombastic, give the bombastic a higher damage boost).

That said, Shadows lairs are obviously done much quicker than the Underworld or FoW, and if one DID give the kind of quick access found in GW, then people might be able to get a little too much access to the armor, etc. I understand the reason that has to be made a bit more difficult to obtain access (As well as the need for money), and that's fine you know, but a balance has to be struck between hard but smooth to access, and frustrating and intimidating. As it stands, we're sorta sitting on the latter.

Perhaps I could suggest some ideas rather than just rant about the damn keys, as the devs do seem to read the hotter forums occaisonally. One idea might be to make it obtainable from Boost, but obviously make it a bit expensive, but not too expensive (Silver keys are sold in the auction as it is). Keep the chance of getting the key in a lock box as well, but change their function; instead of acting as a single party ticket, have the key last a certain amount of time or uses. This way, the key has a better chance of paying itself out over the long run; think of it like a bus pass, as it's better over the long run during the month, rather than paying with cash each time each and everyday.

To sum it up, try to find a balance between amount of accessibility, cost and payout. I myself, even though i have yet to obtain a full set of 5* gear, would like to fight Rabid Snarby simply because it's more challenging, and that there SHOULD be more rewards.

EDIT: Also, I apologize if this idea has been mentioned before. I simply wanted to state my opinion on a game I enjoyed rather than read through the entire topic.

I might have just come up with an idea for a new method of acquiring shadow keys.

I think it would work for everyone: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/30539

Shadow keys are based around gambling and an exploitation of addiction. One can't simply buy ce and buy a shadow key. You can buy all of the ce that you want to buy, and you won't be guaranteed a shadow key.

This is more than a separation between players or between players and content. This is a separation between players and the developers. The relationship between customer and company is important for good business. If customers feel exploited by a company, they won't continue supporting said company.

The business goal of a F2P game should be to take a person's money without them feeling as though they are forced to spend money.

Now, I'm not sure how much of a say the developers have in this update. I'm not sure how much Sega controls their updates and this game. I do know, however, that continued updates like this will lower the playerbase as well as business.

The solution?
Set a predetermined price for shadow keys. Give a price goal for a player on which to look. Even if the price is high, the player will have a goal in mind. If they want to spend money to reach that goal more quickly, so be it. By setting a predetermined price, players will not feel exploited or forced into fruitless search. This implementation will improve community/developer relations; consequently, current and future business will improve. I, for one, am not paying another cent until this exploitative business practice has been changed.

So there's my rant.

I doubt that this post will ever be read by a developer.

Well, I also thought of a possible "solution" to the Shadow Lair problem, and also a way to sort of "practice" against the new enemies to get used to them. Maybe OOO will like some of our ideas, and do something about all the fuzz that is happening these days...

If you want to check it, here you go http://forums.spiralknights.com/es/node/30645 I think the 2nd idea, "Shadow Danger Room", could be a good way to get that content in a way that requires skill, time, a bit of CE and a bit of luck, which I think OOO wants with the Shadow Lairs... and isn't 1 in a (very large number here).

This thread is going to die down like the one about accessories and silver keys. I personally agree with this rant and the previous one mentioned, however I don't think that OOO will heed to our demands...

The last 2 patches have been total busts, and I personally feel that OOO is just screwing its players. This next patch better be good or more people will quit.

I'm willing to bet that way more people used Shadow Keys in the time they were available from Boost than since they were introduced with those Iron Lockboxes. I think they should be either all for Accessories, and just put the darned keys for (permanent) sale with Boost, or guarantee a Shadow Key AND an Accessory when opening a Lockbox.

I am swayed by some of what #182 has said. 375 per total per player to play a boss-circuit several new levels is not too much CE to ask, unless one wishes to play through them every day, yet I think there are a few problems with the Shadow Key mechanic (see my previous post, #178) that are unappealing to a 'casual', paying audience, like me.

As I already stated, I'm not keen on burning 4 bucks in one shot on random strangers, and I'm not going to be active enough in Spiral Knights at any point to arrange a team of four people. I really just want to hop in, either succeed or fail with people I do not know, and have fun. It's really frustrating sounding to get beat down on in the first level (when you are unfamiliar to the area), yet already having paid to unlock all those levels for exactly one run. The shadow-key packaging basically puts burden on one person to front the cost; this is nice for people who are organized, but I don't really want to be organized -- I just want to play and have fun after work, and I guess I could purchase a key every day or two and give it a shot, but that's just more than I'm willing to pay for the entertainment over a month. I highly doubt that I will be offered to hitch a ride on a shadow key more than once in a blue moon with random people I join up with, if ever, and I'm not interested in always being on the hook to pay for that to take strangers; ergo, my predication de-facto sharing of cost will not occur.

It's also frustrating game design: why not let me front smaller amounts of CE to play a level of difficulty or stage until I'm happy with my and my team's performance in it? This is the same as the standard elevator mechanic, and a more expensive elevator (perhaps gradiated, so as difficulty increases and consecutive levels passed increases the cost) I think would make much more sense than the shadow key mechanic. I would argue that given the larger, more rewarding and time-consuming nature of FSC levels that they, too, should ramp up in energy expense: the shortest, early stages (that should still be hard enough to be representative of the longer stages, to test the team) should be cheaper to confirm the team is basically functional. Once you know you have a functional team, there will be a justification to pay more to advance to the next stage.

As-is, shadow keys feel like an awkward and counter-productive gimmick versus just having a more expensive elevator that everyone can opt into and share the cost evenly. The "tab" mechanism is already there if someone wants to absorb the cost of bringing a friend.

Also, I find the first half of most of the stratum silly when one has better gear. Often it's better to just leave a party and re-roll, hoping to hit one that's around the halfway point, not only to save Mist, but also time. The levels in the first half of a tier tend to be easy, have minimal reward, and frankly are boring. I never look forward to playing the first half of a tier after having gotten acquainted with it, so I basically treat is as a chore, and often avoid it via joining an existing party. I think it's good to have that difficulty gradient to help new players to T3 (although the much *lower* heat and crown reward vs the immediate preceding levels such as Jelly King is mysterious...) but I think an added draw of extra end-game content or expensive elevators would be to pay some more Energy to shortcut directly to interesting content without having to abuse the "join party" mechanic to subvert the first-half-of-tier grind. That would be like putting the shadow-key elevators in one of the tier-starting towns, such as Emberlight. There's *so much space* in those intermediate town levels, it confused the heck out of me as to why it's all there and completely empty. Maybe there are plans to fill it, but special premium elevators would be one I wouldn't mind seeing.

Maybe Three Rings is already raking in tons of dough with Spiral Knights, but someone as someone who is basically happy to hand them something less than but comparable to a AAA MMORPG's worth of money per year I feel I will basically get bored and wash my hands of the games in another quarter, maybe picking it up now and then, but leaving a lot of that money on the table. I have spent most of my CE on crafting, but the end of the not-useless gear that also has an interesting or novel game mechanic is coming in sight already. And in spite of my willingness to spend $2 on a single equipment upgrade (probably closer to $4 in aggregate) I find myself given pause to purchase these Shadow Keys. I guess that's a sign.

My issue isn't with the fact that it costs money. It's more ... how they go about it. I see the lockbox mechanic to get shadow keys as an unethical practice that exploits human psychology. The principle at stake here isn't "I am too poor to play endgame content" (which isn't the case at all, for me). I'm fine with a paywall existing, but I take issue with the lottery nature of said paywall. It's a really low tactic, and I'd much prefer if Boost's option was the permanent solution.

I'm peeved because they totally could have done it in a different manner that still a) has a high cost so only high-level players can get in and b) still makes them money. The end results are the same, sure - you can still have a somewhat static cost to the areas by buying them off of the auction house. The cost isn't the issue, it's the design. The lottery-style mechanic is little more than a cheap trick that they just know those few extra people would fall prey to that wouldn't otherwise with the static costs. It's deliberate on their part, and as mentioned in my earlier posts, it strikes me as one of the first negative changes of character in a company that I otherwise had good faith in.

A smattering of players that leave the game might not affect their pocketbooks that much, but there's no reason not to maintain good relationships among your existing players as well.

This. This is exactly what bugs me. Shadow Keys could have a constant cost of a gazillion CE, and probably I wouldn't have even flinched, perhaps I would have thought, hey, looks neat, perhaps I can start saving up from now for when I get to master T3. But the lottery element strikes me as really fishy, and in my eyes, it also sets a rather bad precedent for things to come in following content updates.

The Swarm corruption begins to permeate the very fabric of reality, and the game goes from "Free to Play", to "Gamble-Freemium-but-you-need-lots-of-money-to-get-somewhere-", which isn't such an ethical business model. Lots of shoddy F2P games use this model, and I would have never thought about SK to be among them. I don't like it in general when advantages can be purchased, as opposed to playtime or purely aesthetic items, and until now I've been happy to pay for CE once in a while (I'm not that great of a solo player; sometimes I die a lot and I reckon that, but I'm having fun). Let's see what OOO will do about this, at least acknowledging the unrest in the playerbase would be nice. :|

Just to make this clear.

Don't say that its not free to play, or that the Shadow Lairs are unfair.
1) If you haven't been there OR gotten a Shadow key, stop whining about content you have NO experience in.
2) Shadow Lairs are much harder than Tier 3. Do NOT expect Firestorm Citadel level gameplay. If you do then you obviously didn't read the Notes about it.
3)Its made for 5* experienced players. FIVE STAR EXPERIENCED!!!. Not just-became-5* or "I just got Tier 3 this'll be easy derp" (A little harsh but let's face it, that's how half the first-timer complainers are. Not aimed at anyone here.)
4)Don't argue about Lag. We all have it, so expect it as default for EVERYWHERE in new content. ( and PVP for that matter)
5) If you are going to rage about these because of a failed Shadow Lair run A MONTH after its release, then refer to the above list of statements

That was for the people that do that, not aimed at anyone in this thread (cus it was TL;DR :P)

Anyway I agree they should have kept the permanent way of Purchasing from boost. In fact I'd be fine if the price was bumped up even a bit if it was set by an NPC. Mybe around 1700 - 2000? That is IF they were to raise it if they put it back in. If not keep it at 1500 :D

I didn't observed the update in this point of view (cuz i'm still with 3* gears), and, even a admin asking how horrible it is, i now understand how bad it is. as Blitzwingoo said, this will bring more negative experience for SK, and the game will lost the "no gridding, cooperative gameplay" position. It will be more like all others MMO games i saw.

And, i know this is not the objective of this post, but, acessories with 1 time use is a horrible thing. is better make them a biding item to the armor, and, to recover it, go to Bechamel and pay for it. much better