Hanktron offers some real perspective. Nothing in the new update ruins my enjoyment of the old Spiral Knights. Just like accessories didn't ruin Spiral Knights for me, although I have no interest in them. Just like the Prize Wheel didn't ruin Spiral Knights for me, although I think it's weird to suddenly get prizes in the middle of a mysterious alien dungeon. Just like PvP didn't ruin Spiral Knights for me, although I have little interest in it. Just like Snarbolax didn't ruin Spiral Knights for me, although it was far too easy for an experienced player.

People (especially adolescent boys) are impatient. They want the best stuff possible, and they want it now. If other people have stuff they don't have, then their unfairness sensor goes berserk, even though they should be having as much fun as before the update, because they can do everything now, that they could do then.

You'd be completely right Guun if it was actually about the gear. No one cares about the new armour from a practical perspective they're all awful besides Snarbolax and only serve as difficult to attain costumes, people are irritated because new and enjoyable tier 3 content that players have been longing for for months on end is now restricted to whomever wishes to shell out x amounts of cr/ce attaintain keys, every single time they wish to run said content. If this update had been released several months from now and prior to it we'd had several tier 3 expansions that didn't have some arbritary key crap you'd see a lot less complaining.

fact is if you don't care about the new content then this doesn't matter to you, but some people would actually like to try out new content without having to gamble for it.

You might not care about this in SK, but if this were something like Diablo III and Blizzard said you needed to cough up an extra $2.50 for a very VERY slim to get a one-time-use key that unlocks the final level (and if you don't get the key well too bad, cough up another $2.50 and try again, and again...) and the final boss turns out to be near-impossible to beat and every time you gave-up cause you couldn't win you would have to play the "final-battle lottery" again for another chance, and finally once you do beat him all you get is a bit of ceremonial armor with crap stats that does nothing but shows "hey look I got suckered into wasting my money" I think battle.net would crash from all the rage posts within a day of the release.

Try looking at it from that perspective for if you want to know why so many SK players are up in arms, unless you also wouldn't care about been unable to play the last level of Diablo III unless you cough up a whole lot of cash.

Glowing-Ember, I'm not discounting people bored with the old content; I'm one of those people. But come on. It's very simple. Three Rings watches us play the game, statistically. They adjust their behavior to what we want. Just vote with your time and money.

If no one plays the Shadow Lairs, then Three Rings will make the access fee cheaper (unless they want to give up on the content entirely, which seems wasteful). Conversely, if you don't see Three Rings changing the access fee in a couple of weeks, then that means there really are people paying this much to play; that means that all the complainers on the forums are out of touch.

One thing is clear: Three Rings has much more data about us than we have about us, and they want to keep us happy and spending and telling our friends how great Spiral Knights is.

You have to buy them over and over again. Yes, it's extremely expensive to run the Shadow Lairs repeatedly. So I'm not doing it. So why would Three Rings ever make such an update? Have they gone insane?

Answer: No, they're not insane. They just know something we don't.

I'm not running the lairs either; in fact, once I've paid off a couple CE debts I'm quitting until this is changed. It was mostly Hanktron's borderline trolling that set me off.

I'd say the bigger issue is that SK has a 'casual' business model but isn't an inherently casual game (not that it doesn't have a lot casual appeal, but it also has a lot design clearly aimed at a hardcore audience). At some point down the line things were going to split the community, it's hardly the first time it's happened.

they do this to pay their bills. If they find out that this decision actually hurts the game, they will correct it. YPP still has players 5 years later, which is kind of amazing if you think about it. SK has been around what, half a year? I'm pretty sure they'll do what they need to to break even with this game. That may mean opening up side quests that you don't like. It also may mean pricing extra content to maximize participation. Don't expect them to correct a misprice (if one actually exists) in one day. They'll gather the data on how it works in the short term and try and judge how it will work in the medium and long term. When supply equals demand there are still demanders that are shut out, don't forget that.

You want perspective?

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/30115

69,000 CE spent on finding 1 Shadow key, that's 150 dollars.
That's also the cost of TWO half year subscriptions to World of Warcraft, with no additional costs on top of that. So, you can run one shadow lair, which you might not even complete successfully, and only lasts about two hours, or you can play World of Warcraft for an entire year, raiding Deathwing all day, every day if you so choose, and playing all new content that comes out in that year.

This is price gouging of the worst sort, and Three Ring's greedy devs won't see another cent of my money unless something is drastically changed.

@Hanktron

don't participate. Nobody is making you participate. It's not essential to the game. If it's not worth it to you to participate, don't.

Except it is. Shadow Lairs contain a core part of the backstory of the game and it is essentially a warm up to The Core or whatever they have planned next, content, difficulty and plot wise. If you choose not to participate, you're pretty much missing a whole chunk of the game. Hell, it'll likely be necessary to complete the Shadow Lairs to unlock the next bit of content.

nobody is forcing you to. Not OOO's fault people are morons.

Are you seriously, seriously using this argument?

No comment.

for this game? I thought it was like D2 where you never stay a while and listen. Yes I am using that argument. If you reasonably think about Shadow Lairs, largely a superfluous portion of the game, you will most likely decide that they are not worth it. If you think they are worth it, don't complain about the price. It is still worth it. If you don't think it's worth it don't do it. Nobody is making you. You don't have the "right" to do whatever you want whenever you want. Actions have costs. If the cost is too high, don't do it. Don't be a moron.

I've actually played these new levels, and they are by far the most fun I've ever had in SK. The rewards are meh, but I've always wanted a shadow wolver line for my collection. That being said, people have every right to be upset. This new content is fun as hell, and most people aren't getting to experience it because of this shadow key garbage. I personally really want to go again, but it's tough finding a key. Hanktron is either straight up [doltish], or a troll, so I'd probably ignore any of his posts from this point onward.

So i guess if we believe anything to be badly implemented, we don't get to complain or voice our opinions..or be upset. That makes us dumb right, Hanktron? we should all just stop playing.

Or not. We enjoy SK, we were excited for new content..unfortunately the system for it is garbage - we have EVERY RIGHT to be upset with this system

Doesn't matter though, anything anyone says you're just going to respond with "DERP DONT DO IT THEN". Think a little

EDIT: and yeh theres a whole additional, new level (dont know if its set or has variations) after the shadow lair..so its not just rehashed, its new content a lot of people wont be seeing

As I am not a sucker, I did not spend any CE openning lockboxes, the person in the post that I linked to did. It's also irrelevant wether or not the person in question spent the money for the CE themselves or bought the CE with crowns. CE only comes into the game by purchasing it from Three Rings, so someone(s), somewhere had to spend $150 to get that CE into the game.

Taking my money elsewhere because I realize Three Rings is selling a mexican knockoff of an action figure that's priced for less at a legitimate toy store is throwing a hissy fit, sure.

Perhaps you need to get your eyes checked, or when you reorder your perscription make sure you get the ones that don't come with rose tinted lenses.

As Bopp points out, they have the data. You don't. You have the right to complain, not throw a hissy fit like some four year old that couldn't get the toy he wanted at Toys R Us.

Yes, but that also does not give you the right to wave that information in people's faces.

On the contrary, you seem to be slamming everyones sound arguements down with the same 3 reasons. Strikes me a a four year old who didn't get the attention he expected and so keeps screaming the same thing over and over with his fingers in his ears.

I guess I didn't term it well enough. I mean he has yet to present his own arguements - everything he has shown represents the opinions and views of someone else without his own support reasons, other than any complainer is a child. It leaves people wodnering if he is truely with the update or, as he stated in another forum posts, is just trolling on GD to make a point.

@Kreuz-Drache It doesn't matter how the CE was acquired. It's still WORTH $150 (or, more accurately, someone or group of people paid that much to create that CE at some point?

So? It doesn't change the fact that if Aurorra did pay it entirely crowns, he/she still did it for free(Free as in, not a single dollar was spent at his/her end.). The others who actually bought the energy and sold/traded the energy were happy with their crowns/items/whatever reason they gave energy for. The only thing Aurorra lost is time.(Cause I would only imagine that getting that much energy would take a ton of time.) But, eh, this all under assumption that he/she did used nothing but crowns/other legal means to get that energy. So not much here without more info from him/her.

If he/she did use real money...well....it's a gamble. That's what happens. It's no different than buying a bunch of packs of cards from a particular TCG, just to hopefully land that awesome Secrete Rare/Mythic Rare card, only to get nothing but mostly useless cheap cards. Not even enough to break even. When you could just easily bought that specific card you wanted and get it then and there. Sure, more expensive than a chance, but hey, it's 100% guaranteed at least.
____

I dunno, I'm going to give this shadow lair update a couple more months before I cast my judgment. I feel that everyone should, before jumping ship at the very least.

EDIT: Seems like a lot happens when you try to think up a post....I'll have to do some more reading.

EDIT2: Fixed some of my grammar, cause I'm bad at it. xD

I really don't have much to say, except that Aurorra wasn't the one who spent that much energy. But, I don't really see how it changes much of what I already said.

Bad analogy, as cards are packed systematically and you're guaranteed to get that "Secrete Rare/Mythic Rare" card if you buy a box or a full case depending on the rarity of the card in question, not to mention that the companies that sell these cards also post the rate at which these cards appear. Also, as I have a younger brother who enjoys buying cards by the case, I also know that if you buy an entire case and do not find said card, you can write a letter to the company and they'll generally send you said card.

Because some of us just wanted some new fun content to play, and don't care about the prizes.
I would rather not get any items at all but be allowed to have fun in the dungeon.

@Aurorra

Maybe the specific analogy is bad, but he still gets his point across. Also, don't forget that opening lockboxes isn't ONLY for shadow keys. There is a lot of value in the accessories that you acquire from the 'failed' attempts.

I never said they weren't legitimate, I meant they were quotes of what other people had stated, and thus sounded like you were just a person who joined the bandwagon. Which alot of people are doing on the side of Angst, aka the Anti-key side. I'll admit, yes, you do have some excellent points. Let's just call this my misunderstanding and I'll receed back into my corner of shutting up, because as I said, I don't give a crap. It'll all blow over in 2 weeks or so.

I like how they released this patch for shadow keys and no one has noticed that part of its purpose was to make the price of accessories go down in the market, as well as quell people's complaints about them. If you all have noticed, no one is really complaining about accessories now, because everyone is on about the keys. OOO knew the boxes for accessories were a bad idea, so they tried to rectify the issue with shadow keys, which makes the idea of these boxes seem like no big deal.

Just points to ponder.

If you craft it yourself. Why anyone would buy it for 6k is beyond me.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that. Maybe some other TCG company might do that, but the ones I played they could cared less if you didn't receive one particular card from your case.(If it was some sort of promo type of deal, well, that's different case I would imagine.) Buying a random case, and not getting a particular card from that case?

Not TCGs necessarily, but collectable cards in general, and not for any specific card, but a specific rarity, such as a hand-drawn unique card, or an autographed card, or whatever kind of card the set has to draw people to purchasing in large quantites. I know for a fact that both Topps and Upperdeck will do this, as long as they still had such cards still available, as they set some aside just for this reason. And should they no longer have them in stock they send what they believe is an item (usually a card from some other set) of equivalent value as long as you can show them a proof of purchase. Also, it could be that you're just not openning them in specific quantities, by "case" I refer to a factory sealed box of boxes, of the type that retailers purchase and cost anywhere from $500 to $1000, perhaps they just feel customers who spend that much should be appeased.

Maybe the specific analogy is bad, but he still gets his point across. Also, don't forget that opening lockboxes isn't ONLY for shadow keys. There is a lot of value in the accessories that you acquire from the 'failed' attempts.

The specific analogy is actually quite good for showing what Three Rings has done wrong. Like lockboxes packs of cards aren't ONLY for that secret rare/mythic rare, and there is value to the rare card you are guaranteed in every pack. However, card companies notify their customers of their chances of getting the rarity of the card they're after. But as Nick posted here Three Rings is refusing to do this.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/30004#comment-178302

I can only assume this is an attempt to obscure the real world value of a shadow key from their customers, or perhaps trick their customers into openning "just one more lockbox, it has to be in the next one right?" And unfortunately because of that policy we now have the thread I originally linked of the person openning 92 lockboxes for only one shadow key scaring off anyone else from attempting to find them.

At this point finding a shadow key is looking a lot like winning the lottery, it's not feasible to buy as many tickets as it takes to win the lottery, and the cost of the silver key itself is prohibitively high from allowing people to just "buy that one ticket a week"

Edit: Also looking back at that original post I linked he's just collating the data from everyone in the thread, thankfully it seems he wasn't dumb enough to spend 70k CE to find a single shadow key. My faith in humanity is somewhat renewed, my faith in Three Rings continues to wane.