Spiral Knights - Dear Devs, do you have something against gunners? (good to see some changes, fixing the hats would be nice though...)

Dear Devs, do you have something against gunners? (good to see some changes, fixing the hats would be nice though...)

140 replies [Last post]

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 20:39

Happyapathy

Updated March. 7

Note: This thread was necroed by someone else, not me, so don't say I shouldn't have brought this up again cause someone did it for me.

I would like to say right now that I would really appreciate feedback from the Devs on what I say here.

Last update added a new helm and changed the Antigua line, and from what I hear the Iron Slug will be getting a buff so its good to see that the devs are finally addressing the long ignored requests by gunner players, nonetheless several months of asking and hoping for new gunslinger hat textures and nothing.

Key changes been asked for:

Balance the Shadowsun Set

Gunslinger armor is not the greatest, I can live with that, however the Shadowsun set damage bonus is too low to outweigh its resistance reduction, the demand for it to be fixed has been repeatedly brought back up for half a year now with no response or action from the devs, its basically a shifting of number values and not asking for a whole lot yet other weapon balances that are not as big of an issue or as old are been addressed while this one is completely ignored, is there a reason for this?

FIX THE BLOODY HATS FOR CRYING OUT LOAD

When Spiral Knights was made the developers put much effort and detail into making every piece of gear distinctive and unique in its appearance, then something went wrong, maybe everyone wanted to go home early, or save $0.03 on the game budget, or just got plain old lazy and just copy and pasted the gunslinger hat a bunch of times, changed the stats on them and called it a done deal.

The developers took all the time and diligence to make every other piece of gear unique for every other line of helmet and armor, then seemingly made the gunslinger hat line almost as an afterthought that they threw together as a half baked job. How come the devs can find time to fix the appearance of the Surgebreaker, Blizzbreaker, and Blazebreaker helmets but can't be bothered to fix the glaring issue of 4 (and 2) identical looking hats? How come they can't even do something as simple as this?

Every time there is an update I always hope that the Devs could at least have some minor graphical changes but no, several months of SK and they haven't lifted a finger (or paint brush tool) to do something that should take under an hour to do, the fact the textures can be changed even by users themselves show how little effort it would take to rectify something that should have been done when gunslinger hats were first made but continues to be ignored or put off.

New armor for swordsmen, bombers, and... nope that's it

Did the devs forget about the existence of gun-oriented players when they made the Shadow Lair gear equipment or thought no one would notice the lack of a gunslinger set? The release of the Shadow Lairs really showed how seemingly little the devs think about the gunner role as to be able to make five sets of new armor and somehow decide that the gunslinger line did not deserve to be somewhere in there, how could they put creating a new jelly and lizard set as more important then the gunslinger set. The whole thing was a punch in the gut for gunners as to be left out in such a major update. If a new boss (+ a respective shadow lair) is added in the future it better provide something for gunners.

------------------------------------------------

There are other things I wish would be fixed or implemented, the lack of gunslinger friendly accessories, PvP balance, new shotgun weapon, new pierce line for the Antigua, etc. But that's nitpicking and can wait for the future, the ones I pointed out here are issues that I really think should have been fixed a long time ago or are so simple that I find it incredulous that the devs haven't fixed them yet.

Edit:

Other Issues that have been brought up

Give Gunslinger gear resistances
Make the Deadshot set a 'true' gunslinger armor
Gunner oriented shield line
Possible 2* Gunslinger set
Buff the Callahan + Iron Slug range
Show bombers some love too

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 21:12

Ginungagap

I would have to totally agree with this. Even as a swordie, looking in on the issues here most are really quite blatant. The hat one to me is the most egregious. As happy pointed out, every other piece of equipment is different in it's own way, but three hats are actually identical. There is no difference unless maybe you take a microscope and check the pixels. This really is the biggest indicator of how little love gunners get.

I basically agree with all the other points, the brandish one is quite a good point raised by Happy as well. As an avid brandish user, yeah I thought that the charge was a little weak, but it served it's purpose, and it didn't need to be huge to work. As far as I know, no one has really complained about it, and while I LOVE the change, I'm not sure the issues that Happy brought up should have been overlooked.

The bottom line I guess boils down to: if you're going to have gunner specific armor, it's because you think guns should be used not as support but possibly as a main weapon. So just with the equipment choices, it seems that it should at LEAST have a fraction of the effort that is put into sword and bomb stuff attached with it, but that really just seems lacking. Yes, the vast majority of players use swords and YES only a tiny number in comparison use guns, but give a little love? I love the nameless set, the whole Clint Eastwood reference is great, but if you can put that amount of effort in there and then just kinda blow off the rest? Makes me sad.

All that being said, I still love SK, this is not a deal breaker for me, just I guess show a little love where it's due.

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 21:16

Heavy-Duty

...

Yes upgrade Gunners! And maybe move to Suggestions?

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 21:44

Rangerwillx

At first I was skeptical of the non-gunner love, but from the beginning it seems like it's always been this way.

Note: I'm not going to mention bombers, just swordsman and gunners.
Bombers are probably the most difficult class to play, with their worst armor being just about equal to the gunner's best.

Before we get started, we all know that ASI is best on swords by far, mediocre on guns, & plain doesn't work on bombs.

Swordsman's Armor

Swordsman get the Skolver Set, with a Medium DMG bonus, & freeze resist on each piece.
Swordsman get the Vog Set, with a Medium ASI bonus, & fire resist on each piece.
Swordsman get the Snarbolax Set, with a Medium DMG bonus, with half poison & freeze resist on each piece.

Gunner's Armor

Gunners get the Nameless Set, with a Medium ASI bonus on each pieces.

Gunners get the Justifier Set, with a Medium ASI bonus on each pieces.
Gunners get the Deadsh- Wait a second, this isn't a gunner's set. Anyone can use this for the bonuses.
Gunners get the Shadowsun Set, with LOW DMG bonus on each piece, WITH drawbacks to poison & curse.

Thoughts:
I think there is a clear winner whose set is getting more love.
One Set, starts at 3* so it's much harder to get good UV's on.
One Set, has the same graphic for multiple sets.
One Set, didn't get a Shadow Lair set.
One Set, was proposed a great weapon change to a couple mediocre weapons a two months ago, and hasn't had even a reply.
One Set, is WATCHING as other set's weapons get buffed when they didn't need it and theirs get ignored.
One Set, has a final upgrade which can be used by any other class better then it's own.
One Set, is ignored as accessories to match other classes are made. (i.e. Bomb Bandoliers, Wolver Tails.)

TL;DR: One set needs a little boost.

Post things to add to my "One Set,".

(Off topic, longest post.)

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 22:09

Happyapathy

@Heavy-Duty

This is not a suggestion, I'm pointing out that nothing that has been suggested has had any action taken on them.

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 22:22

Iyashi

Those who are dedicated to

Those who are dedicated to guns should have there gear as well, I very much approve of a shadow lair gear, Improvement to gun lines, and seriously a new look for the gun sets, and maybe a few new ones with different statuses upgrades such as gun asi, or even a Reload speed if they felt like it

Wed, 01/04/2012 - 22:38

Lan-The-Wizard

You would think the red rover

You would think the red rover twins would have given gun armor.

They're gun puppies.

GUN puppies.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 03:29

Metagenic

Dear Happyapathy

Can I copypaste your original post? I want people to start noticing this.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 05:41

Seburo

@metagenic; I doubt he'll mind you spreading his opinion.

A couple other things I find odd/arguably bad about the gunner line:

-Choosing to not fire a full clip of a weapon is actually a more potent strategy than to use a gun as intended. This imbalances weapons with tiny clips (many of the guns), and could be fixed with a quick numbers tweak on reload times. Scaling reload times to curve better with clip sizes would be a perfect fix, and make sense logically.

-Elemental guns! Elemental guns everywhere! No matter what strengths you need from a gun, it comes in Elemental. Which is cool, you know, if Pierce had a similar story to tell. Three gun types give pierce, one has been pointed out by players and devs as being really not usable (AP/Sent), one's got that small clip problem and has a knockback, and the other two are focused on damage at the cost of mobility (Blitz/Plague). While a good percent of these guns are great at what they do, there is not a pierce gun to fill in the roles they do not. Specifically thinking of a gun usable while on the run, that is not a hybrid, because as the Wiki states, hybrid guns really not worth using. Easy fix, when changing up AP/Sent (whenever that happens), make AP a Pierce weapon.

-While Armor has been mentioned multiple times, something that bugs me more than that, there are no shields gunners can use past 3*. You can use the Swiftstrike Buckler, since while it says sword it works for everything, and then past that it's just kind of a "well, what now?". Gunner should have really been the first thought in mind when creating weapon-specific shields, since they're class that benefits the least from being up close and personal, where shields are useful. It would only make sense, in balance and logic, that soldiers specializing in guns would have swapped out the shields of their melee comrades for something a little lighter. While it would work to simply make a gunner shield that gives base stats, another option would be to mirror what a gunner's shield might actually do, and affect movespeed while reloading (because lighter shield), or something along those lines, a utility or service to the player.

-Nobody in their sane mind uses Normal-element guns. Using a specialized piece of weaponry just works better. There's a couple ways to possibly fix this, an easy one would be to increase the damage of Normal guns. If a neutral shot to a monster deals 100% damage, and a super effective/crit shot deals 150%, then planting a Normal gun at ~120% base damage of a gun tied to an element, there would actually be a bit of a reason to take it. While the gun wouldn't be as effective against every target, it would apply some nice blanket damage, especially if you were fighting a group of things with different weaknesses. And it'd be a great sidearm for those who vary their set, and an amazing starting weapon for new players, since they can deal decent damage to everything without having an immediate need to get a gun of every affinity.

edit; my spelling is /fantastic/ at 5am.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 06:51

Good-Spirit

FACE!

Just means you gota step it up lil gunners. Practice makes perfect.
Bring on the Skolver clones with their heart trinkets and auto-aim rapiers! So what if you have to shoot them like 8 times and they kill you in 2 hits, just means it's more humiliating to them when they die. Props to those who stick with their guns.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 07:26

#10

Bopp

Seburo, look up Callahan

Seburo, you might want to look up the Callahan. It isn't exactly your dream piercing gun, but it comes close, and you seem to be unaware of it.

Even though I'm a swordsman, I do agree with the general sentiment here. Bombers need non-elemental armor. Gunners could use some improvements for once.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 07:28

#11

Seburo

"one's got that small clip problem and has a knockback"
^Callahan. As far as I understand it from the Wiki, because it has a knockback even on regular shots you can't run&gun as you would with (for example) an Alchemer.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 07:45

#12

Barrel-Titor

You always have so much rage

You always have so much rage inside you, Blueflood. Bombers have a far more legitimate grounds to complain. It is also equally humiliating to a gunning striker to be taken down by recon/guardian that don't have the same mobility and range advantage. But what is more humiliating is never attempting to compete and come up top in a playing field one repeatedly ridicule, that post is as good as challenging people in t3 for a t1 match set by your own rules.

It must be one of the mysteries of the 20th century why people think so highly of themselves just because low/mid level players lavish praise at them, especially when their video show themselves to be so tactically naive in lockdown.

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 08:43

#13

Good-Spirit

hrm

Sorry if i offended ya in any way Barrel-Titor. I did make a rapier and a few bombs, managed to get 20k with the rapier a few times and average 8-12k with bombs - it wasn't all that tough. It's fun to be unique, but exploiting the game always wins. Sorry about the bitterness.

If they ever do amp up gunning and bombing I'll be all for it.

.. really don't know where the t3 to t1 challenge came from. Don't think I ever said they should bring down the skolver striker theme. The other themes should just have the same potential.

For now I like playing the underdog, it's fun :).

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 09:11

#14

Merethif

@Seburo 1. Callahan knocks

@Seburo
1. Callahan knocks player back only on charged attack. Plus it's attack animation is short enough to not freeze you in place like autogun and practically you can run&gun, just a little bit slower then with, let's say, Blaster.
Also, you're saying that 2-hit combo is a problem. Since when?! Have you talked with Sealed Sword user?

2. I consider myself sensible person, yet I'm using Valiance (normal damage). And I'm not the only one.
Sample post by satisfied Valiance user

3. Shield are for defence first and foremost. Sure, some damage bonus would be nice, but still most sword-users wield Grey Owlite Shield rather then Barbarous Thorn Shield in FSC.

That said, I agree with pretty much all Happyapathy mentioned in his post, especially:
- Balancing Shadowsun Set
- Improving charged shot of Antigua
- Create unique artwork for Gunslinger Hat, Sunset Stetson and Deadshot Chapeau (so they weren't all look like Justifier Hat) and Shadowsun Stetson (so it weren't look like Namless Hat).

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 20:19

#15

The-Rawrcake

First of all their recent

First of all their recent update fixed dodgers. Thank you OOO for caring about gunners. No more stealth bite wolvers from shooting gun at a bad time and annoying gremlins. Gunners are now a bit better to have in a party.

Now I heard smack talkin about normal guns and 2 shot guns so:

Supernova: This thing is a Polaris just better utility because of no shock which screws with knockback. It still interrupts gun puppies just fine so good for rocket puppies etc. It works on every monster family. I do not think someone takes a Polaris for DPS anyway because knockback on a gun should make it a utility gun, not so much a DPS gun. Unless you have a personal vendetta on your entire group, don't constantly use a Polaris to DPS. We have alchemers for that, or AP and Sent if they would go through with the changes. That's why alchemer gunners can be taken a little more seriously than Polaris spammers, not to hurt anyone's feelers.

Alchemer: These are great. Split bullets and ricochets make it more of an AoE gun, but still viable for single target as the bullets do not knock back monsters annoying your group members, and of course deal more damage to help make up for being 2 shot. Of course AP and Sent would be better single target if the changes go through, but they still remain 0 utility and 0 AoE only guns like that... nothing "god-like" to it. And AP and Sent cause hand cramps while alchemers don't. Amazing charge attack once you learn how to position it.

Having to pause between shots so you do not reload is not a big deal because you know a reload is coming. With 6 shots you can end up losing track and shooting the sixth bullet unknowingly and at a bad time too, getting you hit because of reload.

Callahan: This thing is slow and stuns and is 2 shot and hits dodgers. Perfect, because we want to throw up most possible damage on dodgers before they dodge. And this is the very perfect gun for it. Not a 6 shot gun which will hit for a tiny amount then miss following bullets after dodges. This is a burst damage over sustained damage scenario.

Also, callahan makes up for the loss of damage with gremlins because they knock them down with every bullet. (excluding 4 man tier 3 parties or something screwy I found)

Thu, 01/05/2012 - 21:24

#16

Happyapathy

You are absolutley wrong

@The-Rawrcake

Making nearly every enemies attack speed slower has drastically reduced the need for gunners as keeping your distance and timing your swings with a sword is less of an issue then ever, why bother shooting from a safe distance when you can now safely get up close and smack enemies for more damage? If anything this patch has ruined the gunners role.

The point of been a gunner is a trade off between doing less damage but been able to avoid having to risk taking more damage, the whole benefit of safety has been severely reduced in importance to where been a gunner simply becomes doing less damage with no benefit. Having a gunner in your party is now a burden as it means one less sword to do damage.

Gunners were actually quite effective for countering wolvers and gremlins, with a longer range they did not have to risk getting into the 'danger zone' around them and could easily use the wolvers long pause before they attack as a chance to hit them instead of sword users who have to risk the chance of getting hit while attacking them. I actually found that I performed better against wolvers then many sword users because I was a gunner, now wolvers are a joke, for anyone, this patch has drastically reduced the challenge and fun of SK.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 00:41

#17

Akher

- [Enjoy]

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 01:16

#18

Gospel

+1 indeed

when i started SK (aye since april) my preference was to do a full gunner role
luckily i went to wiki early on and saw how bad the gunning sets were, so i ended up with swords

i could understand the low damage bonus on all weapons on the Chaos set (though it really is underpowered)
but Shadowsun with a specific weapon getting low bonus? well that is absurd indeed!
and now we remember the Mad bomber set. Indeed the status reduction is sick, BUT having two types of bonuses, both of which are Medium? WTH

I understand that gunners have the advantage of range, but look at the weapons, most are one type damage. The ones from antigua line are two types but adding em up still is equal to a maxed one type. Therefor they do not have the damage of (two type damage) swords. Add the fact that monsters dodge (or shield) specifically at gunfire!
Comparing now to bombs, though most are one type damage, the AoE is too much of an advantage.

Indeed it is unfair. I always long to shift to gun, but the disadvantages always stack up for me not to.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 02:48

#19

Thisnameisinuse

@Blueflood Well, I don't

@Blueflood

Well, I don't think you need to say sorry to him. What you said is definitly correct. (Skolver Set + Heart Trinkets)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 07:58

#20

Good-Spirit

@Thsinameisinuse I think I

@Thsinameisinuse

I think I should - or to all LD players in general. Being beaten by players that hit me before their swing animation repeatedly has made me quite bitter in general when playing LD. Exiledread was finishing me last night off with a GF hit before he even stopped his striker dash.
Part of it might be needing a better computer, but still very frustrating.

The general rule is this: Swords hit opponents according to what is on your screen, gun shots hit opponents according to what is on their screen.

I'm just going to dance in the clockworks for a while till the game is altered - show up once in a while for an LD match to see how things update... The game is just ruled by one set right now and is no longer fun to me.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 07:44

#21

Mr-Chuck-Norris

Theres also no Shadow Lair

Theres also no Shadow Lair gunner set?

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 12:20

#22

Happyapathy

hello devs?

Still waiting on a reply from the devs, I really need some sort of assurance from them and not some answer dodging reply like "we are hard at work on a new content right now", I've stuck with SK for several months now and I'm sick of them ignoring much requested changes repeatedly, show us you care and say something.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 15:28

#23

The-Rawrcake

@ Happyapathy I'm glad you

@ Happyapathy

I'm glad you show your anger instead of hiding it because other people think it "clouds the value of your post"

Anger does not cloud over any value of any of your posts, people stating that there is a bad attitude and lazily saying it "makes the rest of the post unreadable" are just being lazy.

I'm only saying this because I do not want someone to post saying something about anger being bad.

I will however not get angry because I've now sworn not to. Not that I would get angry at you, because your response to me pretty much convinced me - things are getting dumbed down for swordsman. All they should do is 1. make gunning look better by first making a 2 star option and second changing cosmetics. 2. Quit dumbing the game down, especially the only content we have (FSC, shadow lairs will never count), just so swordsman is more viable.

Spiral Knights, not Wolver Knights devs :,(

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 15:36

#24

The-Rawrcake

OH yeah, Seburo you said

OH yeah, Seburo you said "one's got that small clip problem and has a knockback" about Callahan because you were talking about piercing guns.

Callahan does not knock back, it knocks down. Hit a gremlin and they fall down is what it is or a tier 2 wolver you'll see it there very often. Not knockback.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 16:11

#25

Xylka-Mkii

I'm not even a gunner or

I'm not even a gunner or bomber, but I don't like how the devs have been acting recently. They buffed us, and nerfed the enemies by A LOT.

Ill say it AGAIN.
New monsters, New bosses, New Characters, New Puzzles, New PLAYABLE content.

Oh and BTW don't bring back any other beta monsters like the Tortodrone unless he's going to be stronger than UFSC. If they come back now, they will be mere shadow copies of Trojans.

Back on topic, +1 to the entire OP

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 16:44

#26

Djawed

A little bit of buff would be

A little bit of buff would be much apreciated (just slightly)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 20:12

#27

Espira

Thank you, Happyapathy

I’ve been a gunner since I started SK, and the lack of changes for gunners since I’ve been here (a week or so after the Steam release) have been really disappointing. I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the last patch where we had a nice addition for us was IMF with the Pulsar and Catalyzer. That was how long ago?

I agree with most of the things posted in this thread, regarding changes to gunners. Gunners need a buff. Our Justifier and Nameless sets are alright, and the Deadshot is fine, but it isn’t guns-only. I was originally going to get Shadowsun for my first 5* set, but then I realized that the damage is low (Really? Low?), and it has horrible debuffs on Poison and Curse resist. On that note, I can live with the debuffs if the damage is at least increased. Our current guns, save the Antigua line, are okay for now. We have a decent variety to choose from, even though it is lacking.

At the bare minimum, at LEAST these need to be changed:

- Gunner set stats (more specifically, Shadowsun)
- Antigua Line damage split changes
- Lack of Gunner gear in the Shadow Lairs (I was extremely excited for the Shadow Lair release, but once I found out there were no Gunner sets, I was highly disappointed)

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 22:09

#28

Happyapathy

Still waiting on a response

I'm not going to let this thread die until I either get a response or see some action from the Devs, if they lock it well it will really show how very much they appreciate honest criticism.

Fri, 01/06/2012 - 22:11

#29

Thimol

-----

Is it just me or do guns not do enough damage to sometimes make me feel that they aren't worth using at all?

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 02:52

#30

Kalaina-Elderfall

I love gunning and I'm

I love gunning and I'm willing to play the game fighting tooth and nail to keep up with my swordie friends at all times. But the thing is, I really shouldn't have to.

And here's me saying the same things everyone's already said all over again:

Gun sets have been balanced under the assumption that gunning is a superior strategy to swording. That's why we don't have status resists, and that's why Shadowsun. The thing is, damage bonuses provide a PERCENTAGE increase. We already do less damage. The percentage doesn't need to be lower, too.

For PvE, gunners CAN take solace in the existence of sets with a medium damage bonus vs a specific type of enemy. That is, Deadshot, Valkyrie, Deadly Virulisk, and Dragon Scale. Silvermail competes directly with Deadshot, with Deadshot's normal defense being more useful than Silvermail's pierce in most situations. But that's sort of a cold comfort, since these sets are all available to everyone else, too, and swordies don't use them! So we need to get about six times as much armor as swordies in order to have bonuses that aren't quite as good in PvE. And aren't usable in PvP.

The vast majority of armor in this game needs a rebalance to keep up with Wolver line stuff. Which might indicate that Wolver stuff is too strong, but really it isn't. It works well. So pretty much all the other armor needs to be buffed so that it can work well, too.

As far as the guns themselves? With elemental we have parity, pretty much. Alchemers vs Brandish, Polaris vs DA. For shadow we have parity. Umbra vs Acheron, Biohazard vs Gran Faust. I'm ok with all that, really. But for piercing? Swords only have two options, both of which are nearly identical and both of which are quite good. For guns we have Blitz which is great. Powerful but hard to work with. And then we have Callahan which is useful enough, but could really use a range increase in my opinion. A two-shot clip gun that isn't fully mobile doesn't need the enemies breathing down your neck to use it. I have max ASI and max damage vs Devilites and I still can't avoid taking a stapler to the face (and I'm trying to use Justifier or Nameless so it's a very painful stapler).

The problem is that gunning is about mobility. If you really want a very mobile piercing gun? Might as well just use a sword (and I do, I always use my fourth slot for BTB which is my best option most of the time). And AP and Sentenza are under consideration to become non-pierce weapons to counteract their own inefficiency. In all honesty, they should probably just get a damage boost.

The issue of normal-type weapons needing a boost to be usable, though, is a real issue and it's not gun-specific (the only normal-type weapon worth using in standard situations is Levi). I think a large number of the weapons in the game need to be buffed to at least somewhat keep up with the current weapons that are in use. It's not just the armor. These aren't "try them, you might like them!" weapons, they're just alternate versions of other weapons that deal better damage.

And since nobody's actually reading this, let me bold something:

OOO seems to be afraid of buffing guns because they fear it will break the game. A few percentage tweaks here and there aren't going to make that much of a difference. And the gun-buff fear already DID break the game, in effect, by making guns inferior such that the vast majority of people are using swords and Wolver. And this "guns have range, therefore gunners are invincible" myth? That needs to stop. I take plenty of damage, and swordies are just as good at not taking damage when they really want to avoid it as I am.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 02:57

#31

Shadowoctopus

They don't do enough damage.

They don't do enough damage. I would like to see Shadowsun fixed, or maybe new armor that increases gun range, or a shield that increases the shot limit on some guns. I've had cases where I couldn't shoot past the range of a bomber in lockdown leading to an annoying turtle match..

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 12:57

#32

Ndognine

I may be a (90%) sword user,

I may be a (90%) sword user, but I would still like to see what Devs have to say about the blatant disregard of gunners and their equipment...

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 20:44

#33

Kalaina-Elderfall

Gunners want more good

Gunners want more good options. Non-gunners think gunners should have more options. The community considers gunning to be inferior due the lack of options. As far as I can tell, the player base has pretty much reached a consensus on this. Do you realize how absurd it is to have a consensus in a game like this?

In fact, the only people I've ever heard saying anything about gunners not needing new options are the bombers who want new options for themselves instead. Sort of a "my car broke down" "oh yeah? my house burned down" issue.

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 20:47

#34

Dark-Fantasy

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 21:57

#35

Canned-Bread

Boo

DO NOT WORRY GUNNERS

RON PAUL WILL PURCHASE US MORE OPTIONS USING GOLD BARS

Sat, 01/07/2012 - 22:10

#36

Kennergy

I support this. Swords are good enough. Change the guns like you said you would!

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 07:13

#37

Etendue

You know what guns are?

You know what guns are? They're sidearms. SIDEARMS. Jeez, they're even called handguns, meaning small guns able to be held in one hand, with an emphasis on the "small" description. Have you ever seen 3 (yes, I don't have a polaris) polaris gunners spamming in a tier 3 floor? It's not even a freaking game. Nothing can even get close. Have you ever seen an average group of 3 swordies going through a tier 3 floor? To me, they're known as "free heat." They die so often, I don't rely on them to take anything down.

To most players, swords=risk. The fact that a equally skilled gunner can essentially avoid at least 80% of the damage is what OOO has in mind when they were designing the game. So no. Guns do not need a straight buff, which is what I see being called for here. Instead, guns should have a sort of "scaling buff," which allows for players with more skill to do exponentially more damage. The same thing exists for swords, in the form of the last hit in a combo (particularly for slow swords), and... ermm shielding.

tl;dr Higher skill ceiling for gun usage, not higher damage around the board.

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 07:56

#38

Darkbrady

Who says gunners are

Who says gunners are invincible? I find gunners take a fair amount of damage too (less than swordies sure, but still a lot) especially against ranged enemies. I find that as a bomber I'm capable to take far less damage than gunners, having the ideal amount of mobility and creating distance (thusly why bomber sets are all basically wet paper bags), but whoever says gunners are invincible...well, I'd like to see that tbh, 'cuz I don't see many gunners godmode this game...

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 08:13

#39

Kalaina-Elderfall

Swordies already have more

Swordies already have more damage. Just because they die faster if they suck doesn't mean we can't get comparable percentage bonuses to what they get. The base damage makes up the difference, and gunners shouldn't be having to spend 8-10 times as much money just to Max bonuses when swordies get them by default.

And nobody's calling for a buff on the Polaris, which is basically the only gun which can reliably be called overpowered (and swordies have the DA, which is just as bad if not worse). And really, the only non-normal gun that I feel could use a buff at all is the Callahan.

Guns already have a high skill ceiling. In order to do enough damage you have to shoot well which really is a challenge. In situations where people die (i.e. you're surrounded by monsters), gunners face just as much difficulty as swordies if not more because they can't thin the enemy numbers as quickly. A gunner rarely finds themself with a wall at their back and an enemy horde to push away with Polaris spam.

Basically, I get Max damage at all times via UVs and two damage trinkets. It would be nice to have more options. Justifier and Nameless are the same thing with different types of resistance. Shadowsun fails miserably and Deadshot isn't gun armor. I am forced to equip two Trueshot modules at all times unless I happen to have a High or Very High damage UV on my weapon, which in turn requires me to have six weapons, one for each type of monster, with at least Medium damage UVs. Finding gun armor with good UVs is like pulling teeth, regardless of how much money I have available. All gun armor makes you look like a Mexican bartender with no variety, and running shadow lairs is entirely pointless because Snarby is for swords, Mercurial Demo is for bombs, Heavenly Iron is for swords, Almirian Crusader is bad, Ice Queen is meh, and Arcane Salamander as no ability synergy.

And after I go through all that, I still deal about 40% as much damage as a swordie (Polaris vs DA; Umbra deals even less compared to Acheron). Giving me a set of gun armor with a medium damage bonus and/or shadow defense is not going to change the fact that I deal 40% as much damage as a swordie (since I'm already dealing Max). And Blitz has a much higher skill threshold than any other weapon in the game.

And all of that is mostly irrelevant because I could have just said that balancing games with respect to the lowest common denominator of players is misguided; you should always balance the highest level of play first and then filter it down to the average.

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 09:41

#40

Uuni

I want my valiance to have

I want my valiance to have 6-12 round clip with >1 second reload time. Especially in lockdown being immobilized after just 3 shots is kinda wrong when you look at those DA/GF players use hit combo and immediately charging off for another strike

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 11:12

#41

Asthix

Mexican Bartenders

That is a great comment. Feel the pain of not diversifying the styles!

But, sadly, this thread, while read by the Devs, probably will not be replied to.

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 11:35

#42

Slayzz

+1 Definitely. I am starting

+1 Definitely.
I am starting to get the feeling that the Devs do not look at the suggestions thread. There are too many threads about balance issues for:
Iron Slug
Winmillion (possibly largest complaints on this one)
Gunslinger Armor
Troika Lines
Bomber armor (not as common)
Others I can't think of ATM

It seems OOO is catering to the majority of the SK population, which are swordies with dog outfits.
This is clearly shown by some of the recent updates. (Snarbolax armor, Brandish line buff, maybe more).
I have also noticed lack of gunner improvements. (Shadowsun is horribly imbalances, all GS helms are the same (in two colors), NOTHING as a shadow lair reward has any benefits for gunslingers (I don't count DMG bonus vs any family as anything), no gunslinger/bomber shields (BTS for swordies). I doubt this is very significant, but the gunslinger armor starts at 3*, making UV crafting much more difficult.
Because of the problems mentioned above, gunslingers have much less of a variety of armor to choose from (Deadshot doesn't count), since everything looks the same.
The pros for gunslingers include a wide variety of guns, armor with all 3 damage types, and trinkets. Even so, I sill believe gunners are neglected by the Devs.
Edit: Keep in mind though that gunners attack from a distance, which means they should definitely not do the same amount of damage as a sword. (W/out bonuses of course)

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 12:07

#43

The-Rawrcake

"Especially in lockdown being

"Especially in lockdown being immobilized after just 3 shots is kinda wrong when you look at those DA/GF players use hit combo and immediately charging off for another strike"

Uuni, try shooting 1 bullet - pause - 1 bullet - pause - 1 bullet

Or in valiance's case, 2 bullets - pause - 2 bullets - pause etc. etc.
_______________________________________________________

I will support OOO here and be a negative person to everyone because I am just that way.

I think gunning is fine. fine. In order to excell, we must utilize what we got and learn it and practice over and over. It isn't an over night thing.

Once we get the right gear, trinkets and all, and we learn how to use every gun and quit comparing it to swords, then we can succeed.

I find that I never lack damage. I find that I never lack survivability with 2 shot guns, immobilizing guns, or anything. All it takes is time getting used to it. For example, I am currently finding great uses of the Neutralizer.

I am by no means a great gunner, and you can feel content with guns too.

It is fun to do something that others think isn't handed on a silver platter to them, being able to walk into a group of skolvers / vogs and feel like I am not a clone. In groups, I am occasionally very useful and a nice pocket helper where having another swordsman would be just annoying.

So basically, OOO you do not need to change gunners. just nerf swordsman!! xD We'll all be a happy family of slow ones.

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 12:22

#44

Uuni

"Try shooting 1 bullet -

"Try shooting 1 bullet - pause - 1 bullet - pause - 1 bullet
Or in valiance's case, 2 bullets - pause - 2 bullets - pause etc. etc."

The damage output even with proper gear and trinkets is like 3 hearts per shot max with valiance unless the enemy wears armor that grants no normal resist. The only good thing about this gun is knockback in pve, in pvp it does not happen. The gun could use a lockdown specific buff of some sort

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 12:27

#45

Slayzz

^ best LD gun combo I

^ best LD gun combo I think:
Umbra driver
Storm driver
Callahan
Class: recon

Basically, sneak up to your victim, hit him with storm driver shots until shocked, and attack him during the shock spasms with Callahan. If stunned, finish off with umbra driver. (Elemental, shadow, and piercing damage available).

Idk how well this would work, but it makes sense to me. (especially with ASI bonuses)

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 15:24

#46

Good-Spirit

Basic issue in LD is that

Basic issue in LD is that bombers and gunners are unable to get max damage and wear two heart trinkets. I dont think much of a buff or reduction in damage is needed in gear as much as just getting rid of the +Dmg bonus to swords with striker. This doesn't count the extended latency of bullets and lack of latency with swords... it'd be a help though.

As far as clockwork gear goes, I'm still using the same set I did pre-damage trinkets and can still solo everything without dieing. It'd be nice to have something new to strive for besides rolling for new UVs on my current gear.

I'm running two Striker LD loadouts these days, anywhere from 6-12k per match depending on the amount of people in game. Just to give the aspiring gunners some ideas :).

Armor (for both)
Shadowsun helm (UV Shadow High)
Justifier armor (UV Normal Max)
2x Trueshot trinkets

Set 1
Sentenza (ASI Low)
Umbra Driver (ASI Low)
Callahan (ASI Med)

Set 2
Sentenza (ASI Low)
Nova Driver ... (+VH dmg to construct)
Polaris (ASI Med)

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 15:33

#47

The-Rawrcake

Slayzz I think youre doin too

Slayzz I think youre doin too much plannin xD

Just go around messin with people spammin umbra and youll end up doing 14k, though thats if you completely ignore caps

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 18:07

#48

Slayzz

^ you're probably right.

^ you're probably right. Think too much in LD and you are dead. ;P

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 18:46

#49

Jontlemen

whearas if you go striker

whearas if you go striker with a rapier and spam attack and dash and vaguely point at your enemy you will probably do much better damage
yes I mad

extra skill points if you have max asi from UVs or Trinkets!

Sun, 01/08/2012 - 19:36

#50

The-Rawrcake

Mmk lets get back on topic

Mmk lets get back on topic instead of LD:

Gunners and how they are being over-looked.

I think its there should be a 2 star gunslinger gear and there should also be different graphics between the gunslinger sets.

Also support this being in general discussion, because suggestions forums are completely ignored it looks like :(

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Dear Devs, do you have something against gunners? (good to see some changes, fixing the hats would be nice though...)