Most of you aren't bombers, I take it.

Carrying a utility bomb around is a completely different deal than being a full bomber with a utility sword.

When you have CTR max, you start layering bomb radii to get compound effects. I could keep 4 of these bombs working in an area, with a focal point dealing all the damage of all 4 bombs at one point. With JK, it's hard to not find that sweet spot. Granted, if you're only dropping one bomb and switching to another weapon, the effect is lessened. Same goes with Lumbers, Retrodes, Gunpuppies, or any other slow/non moving mob.

here's sort of an example as well. Phase 4 of the...Hammer mission, where you're in the storage cells with the retrode, lumber, mechaknight? When the mechaknight is released, 4 gunpuppies pop up right in the center, obviously meant to be a cluster of DPS pain. If someone (me) with a DR stood in the center of the button and spammed 2 or 3 DRs while the rest of the group were finishing off the howitzers, those gunpuppies didn't even a chance to wake up, much less shoot.

Also, to people saying that Acheron is just as OP...it doesn't do that same DPS as DR to JK. (so many acronyms ffs) Wading in with Acheron will get you hit, and the charge attack does alot, but not as much as a few DRs.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/46589

Brandishes are far from overpowering everything.

This was the highest dps weapon in spiral knights for most every scenarios. Running with a team of max dmg max ctr bombers spamming DR's was just devastating to anything in its path. Other weapons are quite powerful, but NOTHING did the same DPS as this bomb was doing. Tengu is spot on when he/she states that a few DR's was OP and the most DPS, cause it was. Running in max dmg max ctr bomber gear and a DR was so, so, so fun, but only cause it was pure destruction.

The argument is NOT that if a bomb can kill faster than a sword its OP.

The argument is that this weapon allowed for groups of 4 to do such devastatingly high DPS that it broke the entire game. This didnt get nerfed just cause of RJP runs and how fast it killed the royal jelly, however that was a tell-tale sign of the OP-ness of this weapon.

The nerf definitely sucks, cause the bomb was fun as ever, but how could anyone not see this coming? I smelled nerf the first time I ran with this. I would like a useful shadow bomb, but pre nerf DR was just broken.

a group of 4 with toxic catalyzer do more damage than a group with the pre nerfed DR and more with the seerus mask making the toxic catalyzer shot the charge like the normal shoot
a group of 4 with blitz in vana do more damage and they make the run faster in FSC than a group with the DR bomb in the t3 CH

Kon-Ron, those are two situations with alot of dmg.

The blitz on vana is situational and insane DPS. Blitz does great dps to vana, given the team can handle the agro and each person can spam blitz charges without interruption. I dont understand how 4 blitz's make the run through FSC faster though. Also, I would be willing to bet that MOST 4 man teams would do higher DPS with 1 shiver and 3 blitz's then 4 blitz's, as the shiver would allow the others to non stop charge and fire on vana.

The Toxic's are high damage, real high damage, but wouldnt touch the Damage/Sec of the 4 DR scenario. DPS =/= Damage

Gotta remember DPS is Damage per Second.

Sure, three charged rocket hammers unleashing on a tight pile of mobs (say vortex'd then shiver'd) would be a HUGE damage number (500 per mob per smack, and three hammers smacking twice a piece, which if the pile was a flimsy 4 mobs that would be about 12k dmg), but not neccesarily high DPS as the setup to make that happen would require herding the mobs into a pile, vortexing, shivering, then coordinating the hammer charge. This can be done quickly, but not as quickly as 4 max ctr bombers simply spamming bombs.

The pre nerf DR was simply high DPS without much thought, and good placement of it was unbelievable DPS. 4 good bombers spamming it was game breaking.

Stating a number and saying it's a "max" for something doesn't have anything to do with how something works. It might have more credence if you'd explain how you came up with those numbers.

Yeah, with no CTR, you can get two bombs going at once. That's right.

How did you come up with 175 damage max? With one bomb, you can get the initial blast, and two hits for every revolution if you place it in the right spot against a stationary target. One projectile goes Counter-Clockwise, and the other goes Clockwise, and both can hit easily against a stationary target. Two bombs at once would double that, and if you keep placing them, this DPS continues. As I said pretty plainly above, against 4-6 chromas in a group, this did more damage to ALL of them to beat three menders.
This is because all of the menders tend to focus on one target until it's healed to full, or died. They also heal a bit less than once for every bomb that you can plant. Once you have two going you're doing about double their healing per heal to a group as long as you keep placing bombs and don't screw it up. Their healing also isn't instantaneous, I can't count how many times I've had things die right AS they were receiving healing because the damage has gotten through first.
I'm not making up a scenario, I did it. If you placed one bomb (or even two, lol) and walked away to see if it killed anything then obviously you're going to come to the conclusion that this bomb can't kill anything. If that's how you use bombs, your Blackhawk will definitely kill most things faster, stick to that.

Two bombs at once is more than enough to out-DPS menders if you are actually persistent. Placing TWO bombs and walking away is not going to be any more effective than placing one. Maybe this bomb just isn't for you, I don't know why you're having such trouble using it.

Rather than complaining that a new weapons is "incabable" of killing things, if you can't figure out how to use it, either ask someone for help or stragegy advice or stick to your gun. You stated above that it can't kill a thwacker too, I've been finding in deconstruction zones that all I have to do with it is place bombs and walk away from thwackers around a large obstacle and then go pick up the crowns and mats after a short while cause they all died somewhere behind me. This has been effective in tiers 1-3.

But I'm wondering why Autogun charge attacks weren't nerfed first.
I can kill JK in under 30 seconds using Acheron. I can kill JK in under 30 seconds using Leviathan Blade.
I could only assume this being effective on the Seerus fight...I can't see any other reason for the nerfs.

@Toastnaut
1° there isn´t any bomb with "one charge kill" the bombs do less damage but they to damage to more creatures, bombers can place 3 or 4 bombs (or less) to kill 6 or 9 creaures at the same time, when we say this bomb cant kill a gremlin/jelly is a figurative way to say i can´t go to try to kill a mod with this...

2° talking about menders try to see how a DBB works, it dont let the healer do his job. making, a bomb with neutral damage to that family makes a better work over the bomb that match the family weakness, this is the main problem it takes only 3 DBB to kill al the gremlins/wathever and more than one healer

3° test the bomb in their corresponding tier, a 5* bomb in t1 and t2 is obviously powerfull...
congratulations --"I've been finding in deconstruction zones that all I have to do with it is place bombs and walk away from thwackers around a large obstacle and then go pick up the crowns and mats"-- thats how AoE bombs work but this wasn´t a entire AoE bomb, making necesary stay closer to the enemy to get the full damage

@Kon-Ron: The Biohazard scenarios are not easy to pull of. All it takes is one person accidentally hitting the target with a normal shot to mess up all the work spent stacking charges. It requires a lot of coordination to successfully pull off because the Biohazard isn't a simple weapon to use. The damage potential is balanced by its multiple weaknesses. You have to use tactics that are very different from other guns in order to be effective with the Biohazard.

Before the nerf, the speed and damage of the orbs made the weaknesses easily ignored. You could spam it without considering placement. I don't think that was the original intent. The DR uses very different mechanics than other bombs so there was supposed to be a learning curve. I'm not sure if OOO went too far with the nerf but a change was going to happen.

Megatrondf, I explained already that I've been doing this without bomber gear. I'm done arguing with you, since you're tying to reply to what I've said without even reading it.

Calling BS because the bomb does 75 damage on a hit doesn't mean anything when it hits 4-5 times per enemy in the area. I didn't say anything about arenas. I don't use this bomb in arenas I use a sword, and mist bombs.

@ Kon-Ron:
I'm not sure whether you're arguing or agreeing with me... Of course bombs aren't generally used for a "one charge kill" that's basically what I've been saying. Thought, against slime family turrets, it IS a one charge kill through most of tier 3 on a good plant.

(2) As for menders, I DO use DBB against them, precisely because of the reason you stated. We're not talking about mender strategies here, just how viable the new bomb is.

(3) As I said above, I have been using it in tier 3. Like you said there too, I normally use mist bombs in decon zones as you described. Normally, I kill lone gremlins, and when I get a group, I drop a venom veiler and walk away from them and let the menders kill them. I've been bringing the new bomb as well, and I'm finding they work about equally, even without poisoning them with the DR.

The problem here is that people are complaining that the bomb is useless, but providing no proof. Stating situations where it's no good, doesn't mean it's useless, it means you found where it's not useful. Dunno if anyone has heard this before: "Absense of proof is not proof of absense." This works the other way too. Stating an opinion as a blanket statement for all situations, and then finding a few examples where it's true doesn't make it correct.
Saying that this bomb can't out-DPS mender healing because it's hard to do in arenas simply isn't a complete "test" of how good or bad it is now.

Arenas are a poor use for a bomb with a small AoE and lots of space for mobs to wander around.

It's similar to saying that chocolate is awful because it doesn't go well with chicken. I'm saying that chocolate is great with ice cream. Get the metaphor?

Like I said in my first post, like pretty well every other weapon in the game so far, it's situational and in many situations even with the small nerf, this one's still very useful and effective. I've been using it to clear out wolver dens, deconstruction zones, lichenous lairs (an OBVIOUS one,) many sections of clockworks tunnels levels, and other places too. I don't take it into arenas because I've tried that and it's annoying to try to kite 24 mobs into a tiny circle at once. I'd much rather use combuster + VT or VV.

I have heard this comment many a time just in this forum selection alone. So, Delvro, explain to my why I am the one staying alive and soloing tier 3 arena kings with bombs and guns as my swordmaster friends lay there cheering me on? Also, either none of you kite in an arena correctly, or I am exceedingly lucky, because I can off the healers and mech-knights with relative ease in them... Just my personal experience...

How many firestorm citadel runs with vanaduke included have you ever been on that you haven't died a single time? Just saying, don't knock it 'till you tried it.

Can you maybe Change the Title? First time I saw it, I thought every Bomb got a Nerf.

I find it hilarious that the bomb we payed for got nerfed to the point that I wish I get NPC it because I could get more use out of the crowns instead. It was such a fun bomb especially since it was finally a great attacking bomb that was actually useful instead of the support haze-like bombs which bore the tears out of me. I wouldn't be surprised if this nerf was for PVP which a tiny sliver of the community plays compared to the vast majority of PVE players. But well oh no it's good at JK as if that MEANS ANYTHING I swear all of my 5 star gear as longs as it's not piercing can be good at JK enough to kill him. I killed him with a Nitronome only, seriously nerfing a weapon for JK is sad.

Also anyone who says all sword charge attacks are strong. Cutter lines, and Troika lines would beg to differ as they suck hard and 3 Rings likes that they suck. Also if weapons are even arguably over-powered which this ENTIRE THREAD PROVES THIS POINT it means guess what guys, they are over-powered. Yet they are still the way they are and people don't complain enough that those weapons are over-powered but when people finally get a nice bomb that was great and on par with over-powered stuff for ONCE it gets nerfed to all uselessness, enemies walk through it now and hardly even get hit for me, except turrets and why use a bomb on turrets, when I have ELEMENTAL swords and guns which leads to my next point THEY NERFED A SHADOW WEAPON, why nerf it, it held no harm to what most players in this game strife to play for the rest of time which is FSC.

Now since this bomb we could only get for PAYING THEM COLD HARD CASH AND BEATING IT ON TIER 3 is nerfed and until HOPEFULLY patched again useless, I sit here and wait for the hammer to get nerfed because I was actually having fun with it, mainly cause IT CAN BE USEFUL and it's a HAMMER INSTEAD OF A FREAKING SWORD FOR ONCE. If anyone truly thought these weapons were that overpowered take note that what anyone with them had to do to get them. Buy a DLC alone, then beat it on Tier 3 and I had to do it by myself cause no one was on, so I was sure glad that my money and hardwork was worth it but not now, now it's turning into all the other weapons I like, which is either sucking or getting nerfed to all hell COUGH COUGH PEPPERBOX COUGH

Also in before people say 3 Rings cares, they don't.

There's no Troika Buff which people have complained about for months.
No Cutter line charge attack buff, months of complaining useless.
Winmillion is still sadly only 4 Star which means why make one although it's such a cool weapon, months of complaining for no reason.
Buffs or re-balances to basically now cosmetic armor cause it's not worth using in the field such as the Chaos Cloak and Cowl.

But other things that didn't need this stuff? They were fine so honestly I'm not surprised, although congrats 3 Rings you have more of my money and you made me unhappy with your products again.

Bash all you want, eventually you are all gonna see why I complain about stuff like this. I honestly used to defend against posts like this all the time in the past.

*EDIT* By the way SKILL LEVEL IS NOT A MEANS FOR NERFING WEAPONS OR WHY THEY ARE OVERPOWERED OR NOT so if anyone says I can be good with things that not a lot of people do, that means YOU are GOOD at it. Not the ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

What everyone (myself included) has said when even barely defending the nerf is that, while disappointing, it was necessary and didn't render the bomb useless, it just takes more skill to wield with successful results.

Oh, and on a sort-of related note, anyone who says post-nerf DR can't out DPS a t3 gremlin healer is full of it. I just did a tier 3 arena and out did them and then in the aurora isles I did it again; albeit this is solo, so I don't know if that counts.

Is was overpowered.

It is still strong now.

Move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.

"It is still strong now."
lol

It will always be good on Royal jelly. He's giant, making multi hits easy, just like a calibur/fov charge.

But a weapon only good for a specific boss is boring, i want to use it elsewhere too.

well... im sad to hear this... i havent tried the bomb post patch yet ... im gunna say bring a lil of its speed back cause thats where it shone ... ._. it was like ... a dps bomb that swordies couldnt complain about... visuals are perfect and non-distruptive blast OR effect in any way... it was so beautiful. i hope its still the bomb it was before . :/

@Woop-wee my point, you ask?

I'm saying, people put their hard waned cash into this game to get exclusive p2p content, and what do they get in return? A complete nerf of the (previously) best bomb in the game, only because they are yet again catering to sword users, since that is their main source of income. It's like if Apple came out with an iPad 4 and a new other electronic device, and made the other device inferior to the iPad only because it wasn't mainstream. I know I am not being clear righ now, but I'm just trying to point out that this was yet another of OOO's dumb decisions, which caused all the hate against them. They are either too arrogant or uncaring to notice though. Sorry for the confusion.

I wonder what would happen if OOO actually listened to their customers/players for once. Like buffing the crap weapons or upgrading non-Swordie armor.

The fastest you'd see someone take down JK with a Combuster or Acheron was maybe 40 seconds.
The DR could do it in 15 seconds.

On topic, I agree with the damage nerf but the speed nerf is too much.

@Weop-Wee

Maybe not useless but considering the other bombs its not worth carrying around if you use full bomb loadout like I do. AoA is better for jellys and I can use it on other enemies as well. Each bomb has to fill muliple roles and now the shadow bomb does not do anything very well. DBB is what I use for gremlins now, each hit knocks them down and you can keep them like that if you have max CTR. shock works just as good on jelly swarms and works on Kats or greavers too, not to mention slow down mecha-knights. Then there is RSS for turret control and can be used at close range for huge damage if the bomber is skilled.

Even in an arena I rather take AoA and the VV, much more efficient as from personal experience that one shadow bomb wont outdamage tier3 menders. well not anymore at least. I liked the bomb but honestly it feels like Using Big angry bomb over nitro, its not bad or useless but there are better methods.

The bomb is still useful.... I don't know what you guys are talking about. I just did the third part of the gauntlet level with it just fine, although the healers were not fun to get rid of.

just remove all the weapons and stick with just proto gears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This bomb is so useless in T3 with a mender...dealing 50+ dmg while the mender heals 200. It will be worse with 2 menders............

ive read to much into this one. The bomb was nerfed stupidly most agree. However it is their first time with this kind of bomb so maybe something will come of this.

Look at it this way. What the bomb did to the jelly king the zombies in FSC do to just about everyone else. Lots of damage.
I lose more than half health when i get hit by one of their stupid lunges.
It needs to be unerfed especially with more expansion and harder enemies on the way

Now one thing that has failed to be mentioned is/was the bombs effects on gremlins. The hammer is useless on them and when we finally get a decent way to take out those blasted healers it gets slown down and reduced. Ergo doesn't stop them, and as said earlier they can heal faster than the bomb can do damage. If this stays true then "seerus" is an idiot. And the bombs description should say "May Be Usefull?"

Everything is overpowered against something. So the jellyking/queen runs would have changed a bit. Big Whoop. We all know those people complaining are just trying to keep certain players form making money. You all can stop worrying about that. After making Vanguard most 5 Star equipment can be bought for just over 200k credits. The market prices are more then likely going to drop even with UVs. (not many people will pay an extra 300K+ for one silly asi high/Max UV)

The Hammer. Does not need nerfing. Just from the conflict on this thread thats obvious Its good against constructs jellies and undead. Sucks @ss with everything else (Which the bomb covered nicely). U have to practice with it in order to do good amounts of damage. Its Great For FSC Cissin and I did vana very easily using them. And for reference the blast was nerfed does almost 100 less damage now.

It should also be noted that every boss has some weakness. Its very well known that vana can be done in under five minutes. Hell we use shivermist and Blitz to beat each stage in under a minute. so with or without the bomb. Times Mean Nothing!
I admit the jelly king run was fast but its always fast. Always will be especially with four people.

Any further expeditions into the clockworks are going to require that these weapons be more powerful. unless OOO plans on releasing 6=7 star stuff it needs the buff.

Skill has nuthing to do with this bomb. U should not have to buy UVS in order to make something useful. As is this bombs case. It does too little damage in to small fo an area for any bomber to avoid getting damage. Most bombs if under powered have something usefull they do. This has none. enemies arnt stopped for attacks and it cant be used in unison with anything because the orbs arnt homing. If the orbs broke off and homed in on enemies circling them for damage then wed have something useful. But no hit an enemy while using this bomb would knock it to safety. Unless u feel like taking extra time in the clockworks to build a bomb team and fire shiver poison DR all ur enemies to death (take a while too) this bomb isnt of any use. Even while facing large groups of enemies say like ten or twenty Gremlins/Jellies. They literally wander through with minimal damage (also Stated) and ur stuck in a corner or running around for an hour trying to kill them off. Ud have better luck with the troika line.

Forgot to clarify that this is wiht one ro two people. with a group of four i admit it can be useful for secondary damage.

Plus some of us didnt buy it one the weekend sale. so u know nerfing the price (3 bucks) doesn't help either. Its liek taking a ten dollar deal and saying sorry u paid ten were only giving you seventy percent of what u asked for. (if u catch my drift this is just a thought)

If i missed something or got anything wrong dont B!#$# theirs a lot to recap