...you forgot the Seerus helmet and Blitz Needle.
>.>

Personally, bombers have a worse deal.

I consider a gun to be my primary weapon. I sometimes go with just guns, but almost never with no guns; tried it, and felt naked.

The damage is less than that of a sword a lot of times, but this is more than made up for by the fact that I don't have to wait for safe openings between attacks nearly so much; just kite around monsters and grind them down with near impunity.

The range is utterly pitiful compared to real-world ranged weapons, but not compared to SK ranged weapons. If the relationship between mobility, damage/durability and weapon reach were anything like realistic, then swords would have no use. If that's not your angle, I totally agree with Three Rings' decision to give player projectiles less range than at least some monster projectiles, because otherwise we could just pick things apart with no risk at all except in party button room furballs. The span of dynamic ranges for mobility, attrition and reach puts restrictions on viable encounter variety; the wider the ranges between different tradeoffs allowed, the more painstakingly every encounter need be carefully tuned to work for every desired playstyle.

Shields are not nearly as important for gun use as for sword use. Yes, bugs are everywhere. They affect sword and bomb users, too.

I love the Catalysers for their charge attacks being useful, and I think of the Alchemers' charge attacks as useful in a way similar in character to the needlers, if different in magnitude. The needlers, of course, are all about charge attacks but that doesn't count IMO because the normal attack is underwhelming... So we get two weapons by my count with two useful attacks each rather than just one. I think bombers get none, and sword users get the best selection, with only the Cutter and Spur being messed up. Speaking of which, I sure wish sword users could get a small, fast sword that doesn't feel like a joke... As it is, I use guns for that role despite the lower damage, just because they disrupt my movement much less than having to stop to swing my Striker. Bleh.

Magnus is fun but not especially effective, and the needlers are great but require practice and aren't for every gunner. The Antigua lines lose all Pierce damage after the first upgrade, and the toothpicks are stoopidly overpowered Pierce weapons. In a Beast-heavy level, I can just roflstomp through with my Snarb, but in a Fiend level my weapon of choice is a Pulsar for Devilites and it's kinda a toss-up for Greavers. For Trojans, I'm torn between the sword and bomb. As infamously overpowered as the anti-Fiend sword is, I prefer a gun at least half of the time. O.o

Really, I have not felt like I need any updates for guns, though I guess a buff to the Magnus types or addition of a Piercing 4- and 5-star Antigua path would be really nice. As for purely cosmetic concerns, we have armor costumes.

Let's not forget the fact that even good bombers can be penalized because the graphical nature of their weapons can easily cause performance issues for players with less capable PCs, and are still very visually distracting for those with fine PCs, meaning even good bombers can end up being as much a detriment as an asset despite no actual error on their half. Plus several of the best bombs also requires much more skill to use than most swords or guns because if used improperly they can seriously disrupt the team. Bombers have to put much more effort into planning out what they do and coordinating their actions with their team mates, and often end up contributing a lot less and feeling a lot less useful for it.

Replies to other people

-Very poor damage
Blitz Needle has the highest single target dps of any weapon in the game and the Antigua lines have very high dps while still allowing mobility.
-Small range
Not compared to the range of your enemies, and good gunners don't need significant distance.

-No *usable* shield which gives stat buffs
Swiftstrike if you're actually good, otherwise Bombers are in the same boat and more importantly don't even benefit from the 'generic' buff shield.

-Bugs, bugs everywhere
This applies to everything in SK.

-Unusable charge attacks
Alchemers, Blitz, and again this applies to other weapons.

-No viable piercing weapon, only available ones are super-slow and super-dangerous to use, not the best around fiends eh
What? Blitz is massively useful against Fiends, it's arguably better than FF for dealing with groups of them and it's a lot better than the bombing alternatives.

-No updates for gunners in a long while
No less so than Bombers, latest update non withstanding (And the last update bombers got was basically a nerf :/)

-Only 2 looks for gunner-helmets
Legitimate complaint, but purely cosmetic. At least gunners have Shadow and Piercing armour, unlike Bombers.

I've gunned and bombed extensively in every stratum in the game besides the latest two danger missions for lack of playing recently, gunners do not have it anywhere near as bad as bombers do or ever have. Guns do have some issues like terrible balancing within the class (Autogun and Antigua lines are absurdly good, Catalyzer & Magnus line are horrible, ect) and being pretty poorly equipped for Lockdown but personal agendas aside there is no comparison to what bombers have to deal with. Not to mention trying to ignore bombers getting screwed over because gunners have it bad too is a dumb argument; you don't ignore poor design decisions because of other poor design decisions; you argue to have both fixed.

"Dark Retribution supernerf" is really stretching it, from what I've read and the little I got to see of it. They accidentally made it stoopidly overpowered, so you're not being fair by including it.

The DR was never overpowered, and no one ever actually demonstrated it being op. A bunch of people whined at how extraordinarily effect it was against the Royal Jelly; one specific boss in tier 2 no less, and it ended up nerf. Those of us who played with it in tier 3 extensively during the brief period before it was nerfed would know that while it was powerful, it wasn't broken and it certainly didn't compare to the legitimately overpowered weapons in the game like Blitz, Warhammer, ect. Not to mention the nerf was beyond any reasonable extent and made the bomb a poor choice everywhere outside of pure Slime stratums.

When replying to multiple people in one post, I will try to make sure I clearly separate sections by whom I am replying to. Thanks, Tersakaff. Your example has taught me a valuable lesson.

I meant that I felt naked using no guns. Sorry, my derp. > <

One of the things I like most about this game is that different players find different choices to be most effective, even if there are a lot of choices that seem underpowered or uncommon. With few exceptions, I've seen fans of every weapon. At the same time, except for the toothpicks, pulseguns and Nitronome, I see peops wishing for every weapon to be buffed. It feels to me like bombs are much more a work in progress than swords and guns, but guns are definitely right up there with swords. I find guns more important since I lack the skill to use just swords and/or bombs comfortably, but apparently our mileage does vary.

No, SK guns are not actual guns. They are SK guns. SK takes place in a world where swords and weird non-thrown grenades with only timer fuzes are common weapons, and there are no long guns to speak of; just handguns and charged swords for ranged attack. The fact that real guns are utterly devastating against the targets they are used against has no bearing on game balance here. If you feel it is necessary for guns in your video game to have reach and power comparable to real guns, play a game whose basic, fundamental gameplay model does not dramatically and directly contradict the real world dominance of guns over other weapons. In this game, I hope it is the developers' intent to have non-gun weapons be about equally viable choices and my personal, subjective opinion is that guns and swords are balanced about right but bombs are needing some kind of buff.

My personal, subjective impression is that SK guns offer more than enough range and power because our superior mobility breaks the balance vs. monsters; we get _better_ mobility with (most) guns than with anything else, since sword swings slow us We are more agile by enough to not only totally dictate range when we have room, but dance around them when we don't have room to the point we don't get hit. When things are so cluttery that we still get hit, sword and bomb specialists are hurt a lot more and the improved DPS seems to be just about right to balance that, since different peops choose different weapon classes for those situations. If guns were to get a damage boost so I stop being in a minority for considering them about even with swords there, AND a range boost so they even more strongly dominate all other situations, I think we'd see a lot of complaining about guns being overpowered.

Bugs are tangential, IMO. Bugs should be dealt with by making them stop happening, not by working around them with mechanics and stat tweaking, so in retrospect I should have said this earlier. Speaking of tangentiality, we should probably keep our discussion at least in the neighborhood of the opening post's topic...

Ugh. I certainly don't _feel_ brave, and certainly not manly. For me, at least, the Pulseguns are the safest and most effective weapons against Devilites, of what I've tried. Rather, I feel practical; "Of course I shot him in the back, it's the safest way!" There are some crampy places where I switch to the toothpick, but if I had to choose to bring just one of the two it would be the Pulsegun. To each their own, of course. Guns are lacking really great Pierce options, but swords are lacking really great fast options. The main reason I agree with Metagenic is that the only things bombs offer me that some swords and guns don't are long-lasting haze fields and vortex fields. I prefer Brandishes and Roarmulus guns for chewing on large mobs just because the flexibility offered by a combination of a Brandish and a gun lets me take good advantage of most sizes of openings AND still have something really good for single target situations. That the specifically bomb-oriented armor only offers Elemental defense and that no shields give bomb-specific bonuses is not such a big deal IMO since while I've seen peops excited about armor, shield and UV bonuses, I've not seen it being reported to be the difference between a weapon being fund and effective and it being not fun and effective; the weapon either is or isn't "just right" for a given player, and the specialised armor is just icing when it is.

Meta,

I think I overreacted there. Now that I've reflected on it, the fact that it was for a while the only Shadow-type DPS option should not be considered justification for its being relatively weak otherwise. There's no reason I see that the bomb(s) available for one damage type should be weak compared to those available for another type, so I retract my objection.

Or perhaps you simply aren't supposed to be able to play as a "pure bomber".

Is Nitronome and Dark Bomb Briar helpful at least...?

I hope so.. at least we could combo with Vortex + DBB/Nitro..

Guns allow you to attack without getting close. Of course they're weaker- Nick has repeatedly stated that you're trading damage output for safety. This is a classic risk vs reward trade off. To some extent this goes for bombs too. They used to have an uncharged attack mechanic a la blast network, but this was quickly found to be overpowered when combined with area attacks and the ability to hurt enemies from a distance.

There are certainly aspects of bombing that are neglected, like armors. But bombs can be stunningly powerful- I doubt that you'll see many serious complaints of underpowered-ness from owners of the dark retribution, 5* haze bombs, or briar barrage.

Remi used Nitronome!

A critical hit!

EDIT: I have been massively ninja posted, sorry is someone already covered any of this.

I will not deny that us gunners have received a good amount of buffs. Don't forget that all bombs received a universal damage buff and they tried to fix the BAB/ITD (although they still need some work). However, IMO, these buffs have not targeted the main reason why these weapons need some love:

Swords can do the exact same thing as the other two weapons, and in a lot of cases, can do it BETTER.

Judging from what nick said about the RSS changes, Guns are supposed to be the most effective on single targets, Bombs be the most effective on crowds, and swords are in between them as the well-rounded ones. However, this doesn't mean that bombs should be useless on a single target (old RSS was super effective on single targets when used right, maybe that's why they changed it).

Regarding the Dark Retribution nerf, I think people have gotten too used to swords being the most powerful weapon. They don't realize that with true balance, anything can be effective in their own way. So, Dark Retribution was crazy effective on the JK. The Acheron, Volcanic Pepperbox, Umbra Driver, Fang of Vog, Sentenza, and Gran Faust are all crazy effective too, and useful elsewhere. Old Dark Retribution was balanced vs swords. Yes, it was OP compared to other bombs because the other bombs were (and still are) underpowered vs swords.

As for armor, usually high damage classes/whatever will have poorer defenses. This, we all know, is not the case. If bombs are not gonna have a good offense outside of large crowds, then they should have much better defenses. But all they get is elemental defense. If I see a guy in bomber armor in Lockdown, all I have to do is bring out my non-elemental weapon (Or Trollaris) of choice and there is nothing they can do about it, except switch from bomber armor (even more so now the RSS got changed). Don't forget the large library of melee attacks that deal pierce and shadow damage. Also, one of these armors is a SL armor, yet it does not give something else?

Weapon/Armor balance would do so much for making this game fun again. New stages and costumes are nice, but it would be even better to see how many effective weapon/armor combos and strategies that can be made in both clockworks and lockdown. Just wish people would get out of the mindset that swords are supposed to be the most powerful weapon.

The player starts with a Proto Sword and a Proto Gun; no Proto Bomb. Heck, there isn't even a bombing tutorial.

The revamped starting zone now includes Proto Bomb, and how to use it.
When? The mission updates.

You know there's something seerusly wrong when a DBB with only VH damage bonus does more damage over time to zombies than the Deadly Crystal Bomb with MAX damage bonus VS undead, and you don't even need to worry about positioning with DBB. Sure, you can hit a zombie with more than one of the secondary shards, but as I said, with DBB, you don't need to worry about trying to push zombies just nicely between 2 shards.

Hopefully drivers will get a nerf too, the charge attack deals way too much damage thanks to the "ricochet-inside" bug.

I have gunned for 11 months and they are sort of fine. The only thing that should be changed for guns is.....

A. they add a piercing antigua gun that gives mobility while firing.

B. they make shooting the entire clip beneficial DPS-wise instead of us constantly taking advantage of broken game mechanics (shoot-pause).

C. they buff the crapguns, but there are also crapswords and crapbombs out there to be buffed too.

Bombs are not fine, and I am sick and tired of OOO not making more Dark Briar Barrage-like bombs since I bring a bomber into my group for AoE damage and control. An elemental and shadow DBB would be great, DR is quirky and all of the rest of DPS bombs cause knockback and are complete crap for groups. Status bombs and DBB are all I ever want to see in my group. That is ridiculous, add elemental and shadow DBB-like bombs. And make Bombastic give shadow defense so that the shadow+freeze goes well in HoI. Make a bomber set give piercing defense too, like Mercurial Demo. Too much elemental defense.

Alchemers can ohko targets with their charge the same way old RSS could. Guess they better nerf that also. Let us not forget how the DA/Brandish charge can maul groups of enemies also. Let us also remember how overpowered blitz needle is.. maybe that should be reduced by 50%.

I play all groups.. or did before the fail RSS nerf. Nerfing everything I just said above will make everyone else feel what all true bombers felt when their only non-aoe bomb got nerfed for the most pathetic reason.

On the note of Dark Ret, Dark Ret is really only good for slimes or large targets. Darkfang Gremlins tend to avoid the weapon even though it was made to kill gremlins by Warmaster Seerus?

I am upset because bombers are now relegated to only two distinct playstyles:

Bombs that have large knockback (Nitro/BAB/ITB) and bombs that do not (haze bombs and the new shard bombs).
Even more frustrating is that all these bombs pretty much fill similar roles (AoE Damage/Crowd control).

I loved the old RSS because it was not the above. It was a FAST exploding and FAST charging bomb that was effective versus smaller groups of enemies.
It was a very fun bomb to use because it required good skill to take full advantage of it super short fuse and concentrated multi-hit damage. This made it the most enjoyable weapon in my opinion to use in both PvE and PvP but now OOO decided I cannot have that kind of fun.

OOO did not take away just a few bombs, they took away SK's most skill based and most fun playstyle.

I think I will return once OOO decides to stop ruining their own game.

Also Dark Retribution is only avaiable by (someone) paying the Crimson Hammer mission... viable or not, the only f2p Shadow bomb is the Graviton Vortex. And well, notIonized Salt Bomb/non-Shock counterpart. Which is broken (and not the OP definition) as all the notShard Bombs.

I absolutely love the DR right after the release of the DLC. Everyone got excited and we were telling friends and guildmates and their dogs to "jump on the bandwagon". But guess what, after a week or less (I think), OOO discovered this "mistake" and the revised DR is just a joke. Want to take care of those annoying gremlins? DBB does the job better. Jellies? The good old mist bombs (VT + AoA). Results: bombers got gimped, all the good words of mouth are gone.

Looking at bomber's gears. Thank God they fixed Bombastic set (though the fix came pretty late, better than nothing I guess). Mercurial Demo Set, which was supposed to be the hardest demo gear to obtain, could be better. Movement bonus needs a boost to be useful (Medium not good enough) and I rather have Bomb Fuse Time reduction rather than Bomb Damage Increase.

And let's not forget we still don't have a set of bomber's gear that resists piercing. Right now the closest thing is Mercurial Set (which unless you count Movement Speed Increase as a bomber's attribute, is hardly a bomber set).

RSS could be the best close / medium ranged tool in the bomber's arsenal, to handle all the miscellaneous situation that our other bombs couldn't handle (or requiring us to carry a sword or a gun). Yet some people believe it behaves like a gun and therefore is not very bomb like, so it should be taken away. I think enough have been said about how short sighted these people are as they overlooked the real needs of bombers.

Painters paint, writers write, bombers bomb. If the decision makers fail to see this and still believe diversification of our arsenal should take precedence over the very thing that make what bombers are, these people are sadly very ill informed.

The normal attacks on alchemers are also ridiculously powerful. Making it only split once rather than up to twice on normal attacks / making the charge attack only have two splits rather than four would in fact be a big nerf to Alchemers, but the gun will still be extremely useful after the nerf. Right now, the Alchemers totally cloud out the Antiguas because of their great AoE potential. I am +1 for an Alchemer nerf, most people don't realize that they need nerfed because A. They don't have one, or B. They suck at using it.

Blitz Needle doesn't need a 50% nerf, saying that means you are likely just upset and raging. All they need to do is revert to the old Blitz Needle damage, since this one patch a while ago buffed ALL gun charge attacks by 25%, when they should not have had Blitz benefit from that buff. Keep in mind that Blitz is intended by the developers to be dangerous but deal a lot of damage. On the other hand, RSS was NOT intended by the developers to be dangerous but deal a lot of single-target damage. I would be +1 for a "We are reverting Blitz Needle to its original damage, as we did not intend it to benefit from the 25% gun charge damage buff" type of nerf; the developers can cleverly word it.

"Yet some people believe it behaves like a gun and therefore is not very bomb like, so it should be taken away. I think enough have been said about how short sighted these people are as they overlooked the real needs of bombers."

The developers never intended this bomb to OHKO anything. This is another reason that the developers took it out, as well as the fact that it does not explode or act much like a bomb would. That is what the developers themselves thought, not just some of us as you put it.

This is not a valid reason. Because all these weapons can kill things neutral to them well too:

DR could kill things that resisted shadow. Gwen never said neutral, she said resisted.

Although, I still think they nerfed the bomb too much. Most likely nothing will be done about it.

As for nerfing things, maybe alchemers could use a nerf. I can OHKO 2 mobs with one charge shot. However, there are other things in the game than need nerfing more desperately (Yes, blitz is one of those) and yet, remained unerfed.

Everyone in the game has a blitz, and before nerfing that nerf all of your gunswords / toothpicks ;)

"Bombers are the only ones who have a negative very high bonus in LD. They also only get ctr bonuses whereas swordies get three options. I' not sure what gunners get though."
Well, would you honestly want strikers to zip around being able to drop VT/SS from just having a vh ctr uv? I know I wouldn't.