Spiral Knights - The New Forge System CONCERNING Issues

The New Forge System CONCERNING Issues

198 replies [Last post]

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 19:56

Abcdz

Hello SK users and GM's if you are reading this. I am pretty aware that lots of SK user have been complaining including me about the new 5* forge system. It is now almost IMPOSSIBLE to level up your 5* equipment because of the radiant fire crystals. First of all, you rarely find any radiant fire crystals in the clockworks and only a few at most at stratum 5-6. It would take ages to get just enough. Second, you need 700ce to purchase just 50 radiant fire crystals. To level up a equipment, it need on average at LEAST 30 radiant fire crystals. And with that, it has only a 30% output of correctly levelling up a 5* gear. To even talk about it, a 5* piece has 10 LEVELS to heat. And, within any level, you cannot forge and will have to interrupt your journey just to return back to haven and finally forge your weapon. Overall, you would need TONS of energy to actually complete leveling up a weapon and a LOT of time. Enough said. The new radiant crystal system will be enough to make a lot of new players walk away.

UPDATE 1: Now with the inflation of the price of CE, it is even harder than 3 years before

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 19:59

Son-Of-Hades

woof +1

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:00

Damienfoxy

YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR

YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE!!!!

i like the forge... i want to marry it

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:03

Son-Of-Hades

I am the lorax and i speak

I am the lorax and i speak for the trees! the heating system is absurd! i will eat your soul and steal your cookies!

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:04

No-Thanks

slow progress maybe?

i thot it is meant to slow down the progress and giv players something to work towards

then again, the items gain heat really fast and it wouldnt make sense to just be wasting all the excess heat, maybe an oversight or something like that

ever since the forge system was released, i didnt have much interest left in heating stuff at all, so i couldnt care less + as an item collector lvl 0 heat is enough for me at 5*

alternatively u can always buy overpriced crystals right

oh yea! for 5* weaps since they get ctr, that really does get in the way hmmm..i think thats wrong and should be changed
just happy not be affected by this, i wouldnt waste my time with upsetting things anyways

gl lol

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:07

Abcdz

Slow

Im am pretty sure a lot of people have lost intrest in heating even though they lose their CTR, which is very Importing for Brandish lines and Damage output too....

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:08

Vivideus

The problem is not the

The problem is not the radiant fire crystal.
It is the shining fire crystal.
I never crafted another item after the patch, OOO literally doubled the amount of time we need for upgrading stuff, especially in the 4* area where the farming and heating are separated: you have to farm those crappy 4* missions or clockworks that gives next to no heat for the crystals, THEN go FSC for the heat. And think of those who can't go FSC yet...that's pure nightmare.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:09

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

A recent change made Radiants a lot more rare, if it was like before I see no problem with the system (we have this instead of mist and this is a lot better IMHO). During this radiant drought it might be a good idea to save up on shinings as before they were a littler harder to obtain, we will get radiants soon enough.

Also this "within any levels, you cannot forge and have to interrupt your just to back to haven and finally forge your weapon.", stop playing FSC or other boss levels and get into the clockworks, a arsenal station at the beginning of each floor.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:13

Abcdz

True about going back to haven but...

It is true but what about FSC? There is no Arsenal Stations and FSC is the best place for heating but you need to go back to haven and get interrupted...So basically it is about FSC and crystals..

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:17

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

FSC is the best place to farm CRs now, not heat, effective heating is now done in clockworks. Farming FSC only gets you so far, now you *gasp* have to play other levels to make progress. Before you just took any item to FSC, heating is done, can you imagine that with the current system? You would be able to craft any and every weapon within the week.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:20

#10

Addy

Not to seem intentionally

Not to seem intentionally contrary but I really like the new Forge system. It's much better than what we had before this : elevators costing 10 energy per floor, limiting our free play time by quite a lot. I find that I actually can go from 4* to 5* even faster than I could before because I can just keep playing and don't have to wait until the next day.

As Wolfe said, it's best to heat in the Clockworks since there are Arsenal stations you can forge at every floor, and the added chance of great Basil finds is excellent. :D Blackhawk recipes sure are selling like hotcakes right now.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:20

#11

Bopp

buy fire crystals with energy

You are supposed to buy orbs and fire crystals using energy. That is the point of energy, now that energy is not used for playing the game or crafting.

To put it another way: Under the old system, you had to pay energy for playing and crafting, but not heating. Under the new system, you have to pay energy for heating and crafting, but not playing. Under the old system, you got something for free --- 100 second-class energy per day. Under the new system, you get something for free --- orbs and fire crystals, although not enough to let you craft all of the items you want as fast as you want.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:21

#12

Abcdz

Whats the point

What is the point of effective heating though if you are stuck on 1 level and don't have enough radiant fire crystals to move on? :\

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:26

#13

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

If you dont have enough then keep playing to find fires, you do not have mist to worry about anymore. Using the current situation is a terrible example, wait for things to settle out so we can see where to get radiants. You may not be getting many radiants right now but we will get them (I am guessing with the arcade revamp).

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:30

#14

Abcdz

I hope

I hope that we could get more radiants. ATM, I don't have enough to buy them and doing runs has only a very very rare chance of collecting them. I heard you get 5 at end of FSC runs, but you need 30 of them for only 30% chance, so it will take forever D:
Not enough

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:31

#15

Addy

as mentioned - don't have

as mentioned - don't have enough, keep playing! If you still can't find enough, you have the option to buy them. I do believe that you can upgrade your crystals, so collect 4* ones, upgrade them to 5*. (Unless I'm mistaken and you can only craft DOWN...) But, also, as you keep on playing, you make crowns, buy energy, and then you can buy the crystals you need from the Supply Depot. *shrug*

It's not something you're expected to do incredibly quickly. You need *something* in this game to work toward. If it were still the old system then you could finish a weapon in hours.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:33

#16

Abcdz

how

How can you upgrade the 4* ones?

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:37

#17

Addy

Ahhh my bad. I don't remember

Ahhh my bad. I don't remember where the recipes came from but you can craft crystals.. but I had it backwards. You spend three 5* crystals and you get five 4* crystals. I've never used them so I wasn't sure.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:38

#18

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

Addy means well but currently you can only downgrade at this time. If you are running low on radiants I have found the Apocrea (non Grasping Plateau floors) to drop them, I have gotten around 30 today from the 2 arenas that I hit.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:39

#19

Abcdz

Damn

I told you, you can like never get 5* crystals now :(

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:49

#20

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

And as I said, they are part way through the arcade revamp and things are bound to change, it is best to wait it out. There are ways to get Radiants right now (even if they are not many) so if you cant wait you can drop a bit of CE to get to heating (you did say you were running FSC, so you must have some CR or CE hanging around).

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 20:52

#21

Hellscreams-Forum

@Everyone

Did anyone ask Nick politely why he remove the 5 star heat crystal ? I don't think so.....I'm going to do that NOW !!!

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 22:18

#22

No-Thanks

nicely worded addy!

thers no problem spamming fsc, u can just push m button and go down again its real fast, but frankly im not surprised others consider it a hassle or cant even figure that *cough cough* and why should they anyway?? people love to believe, that everything is aimed at making clockworks playable again!

imo profit runners still do profit runs, and new or fun ppl still prefer fun places

anyhow, im not very interested in this whole heating system altogether, but heres what i remember having read
6 radiant fire crystals per fsc
fsc takes 30-60minutes
i think its like 300 fire crystals to up a 5* item lvl 1-10 rough estimation
700 freaking energy!!!! for 50 tiny radiant fire crystals!!!! u see this rip off?

300RFC/6RFC = 50 => 50 fsc runs ; 50x30minutes = 1500 minutes = 25 hours

hmm for 1 weapon that doesnt look too bad actually..50x10k cr= 500k cr
300RFC/50RFC = 6 ; 6x700CE = 4200CE ~ 294k cr at 7k cr per 100CE

i guess a f2p player who played 4 hours every day, 2hours farming, 2hours rotting in haven etc. could get 1 5* item heated to maximum from scratch every week or 2, depending on if he buys more crystals from the depot, given that he plays tier 3 only and the rates are about right, also depending on the amount of token boxes destroyed

i didnt double check the math u can do that
most ppl will get ripped off from the heat gambling system, this is just for the 100% heating
crafting is practically free.. the only thing, that is really unfair here, is the CTR loss for all the ppl without maxed 5* weapons
i think adjusting weapons and armors to the new heating mechanism should do the trick for most part..yea thats what i think and that doesnt mean ppl will stop crying about it, but it would be a fair way to treat them without revoking the changes

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 22:24

#23

Abcdz

U sure?

Are you pretty sure that there will be new ways of getting 5* crystals, and what would be new in the arcade revamp? Also, your math is correct No-THanks. Thanks for it

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 22:28

#24

Abcdz

Concerned

As No-Thanks has talked about the big ctr loss, I currently have the Obsidian edge. And now without the radiant fire crystals, I will suffer with no more CTR med since I would not be able to be level it up to level 10 which is completely saddening.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 22:28

#25

Abcdz

Concerned

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 00:29

#26

Not-Impressed

Hang on, I'm thinking of something clever..

Starting to? A lot of people I know hated it when it was implemented.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 00:35

#27

Fangel

The system is fine

However, these drop rates are horrendous.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 04:53

#28

Thunder-The-Bright

bopp, before the update, you had to do 5-6 vana runs to fully heat up a 5* item. now you gotta spend 1.4k ce to level it up from level 9 to 10. even without counting FSC, you didn't have to play 140 t3 level to heat up an item before. this new drop rate is too restrictive. ok it had to be nerfed, and in favor of the 4* players, but not this much.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 05:37

#29

Clown-Nine

The drop rates are bad,

The drop rates are bad, there's practically no radiants. However the shinings drop rate was bad before also. We need something in between

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 05:37

#30

Rezzler

Did anyone check the non-FSC

Did anyone check the non-FSC gates at T3 for radiant drops?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 05:45

#31

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

it's the same of FSC.
source: me.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 06:35

#32

Fallconn

I haven't noticed much change, but I also did grind the living hell out of Cold blood and FSC for radiants/shining crystals. before patch :/

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 06:51

#33

Battlegrinder

@Bopp

Under this system, OOO is making money off of prize boxes and orbs, not fire crystals. I don't know any player who's crazy enough to pay 800 energy to craft something, and than pay another 7000 to heat it. That's an insane amount, and I doubt anyone is rich enough to pay it.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 08:17

#34

Bopp

Battlegrinder, Thunder-The-Bright

Battlegrinder, I don't know how Three Rings is making their money, but you might be right. And Thunder-The-Bright's point is also valid. And of course the forge system is tremendously unpopular (judging from the forums, at least). I'm just saying that, as we complain about this new heating obstacle that Three Rings has imposed on us, let's also remember the obstacles that they have removed.

I think that Three Rings wants to make it hard to complete a 5-star item to heat level 10. I think that it's a conscious design choice. Why? Because once your item is completed, you can't make any more progress on it (except by rolling for UVs). And progress is obviously very important to player psychology. So Three Rings is trying to draw out the end of the process, to keep you feeling progress as long as possible.

Many players on this forum feel that the process is too drawn out. That might be true. But they feel that way because they remember how the process used to be, which sets their expectations. Basically, Three Rings can't remove anything, or make any aspect of the game rougher (even while making others smoother), without making people mad.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 09:23

#35

Abcdz

@Thunder-The-Bright

You said before it took 5-6 vanaduke runs to COMPLETELY level up a 5* weapon from 1-10. Now, you need 700ce for a 40% chance average of success. 700ce is equivalent to around 6-8 vans runs. And that is probably to level with 40% chance. Now, say 7 x 10= 70 vanaduke runs! And we don't even know if the gambling system for the forge is even set right to begin with. So, if poor people like me can't afford to spend a bunch of real money in the game, we would need to do at least 70+ vanaduke runs........ ( each run takes 1-2 hours)

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 09:38

#36

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

abcdz, you're losing credibility with that post.
old system, 7 vanas were 700 ce, now it's 7-8, depending on difficulty. nobody uses the lower tiers of the forge because it's not profitable to fail, the 100% chance is enough to make everybody go for it. in all my assumptions I never considered using the lower tiers of the forge.
700ce is 50 radiants. to heat up 5* item you need 453 radiants(source: wiki). considering you will do FSC, and the chance it has to get you radiants, it will cost you 6.3k ce, 5.6k if you are lucky. an elite vana run goes for 8kcr at least (if I remember correctly). you'll need 54-43 runs.
vana runs don't last for more than an hour. if they do, you're doing something wrong. average should be around 50 mins. so it's 45-36 hours of playtime. which means that now it will actually take a month or two to heat up something; a month of FSC. guys like me don't resist that long, and I resisted till 2.3kce, slowing down at the end.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 09:59

#37

Abcdz

Still....

Still 56 vana runs........ -_-

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:14

#38

Abcdz

Still....

Pressed saved 2 times...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:11

#39

Abcdz

Sure

I'm am pretty sure a knight won't like to do 56 vana as it does become boring after that.......

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:12

#40

Abcdz

Sure

Mistake

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:13

#41

Abcdz

Sure

Mistake again

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:13

#42

Abcdz

Sure

This is getting ridiculous

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:50

#43

Maharito

Holy lag bombs, Batman! You

Holy lag bombs, Batman! You must've been going through some bizarre time warp. You have a post that's later than the posts below it!!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 11:14

#44

Grimranger

@Bopp

6300 E for 5* crystals is a lot (if you're doing 100%, that's how much it takes).
I get the forge system, we need it because of elevators being free. But elevators being free doesn't mean that it should cost 6300 E to fully level up one 5* item.
The stupid thing is that OOO won't say whether it's intentional or not. If it is, then why? Just because of free elevators you need to force us to use 6300 E for one item? Pff. If it isn't why isn't it fixed? It can't be that hard.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 11:37

#45

Narfle

I likewise hate the forge system, though I understand the reasons it was implemented. I did want to pop in and add, however: several people have already commented on the forums after having reported the change in 5* crystal drops to support as a bug, and from what I've seen the responses have all essentially been, "yes, we've adjusted drop rates." If the current drop rates were a bug, I imagine we would have a bug fix by now. Rather, I think it's much more likely that this is, as has already been pointed out, OOO wanting to push players toward purchasing 5* fire crystals. Add in the eventual addition of a new boss that is supposed to take the mission progression to post-vanguard, and it makes sense (doesn't mean that I like it, but it does make sense) that OOO would severely nerf the drop rate for 5* crystals--they want to push players toward farming whatever new, hopefully more difficult, boss is eventually on the way. For those who are mad about the dramatically lower drop rate, I think the best you can realistically hope for is if OOO sees a drop in player activity surrounding heating 5* equipment (without a corresponding spike in purchases of 5* crystals from the depot) that might encourage them to dial the nerf back a bit.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:44

#46

Abcdz

True

Maybe it is true that OOO is intentionally trying to make us spend money.......

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:22

#47

Abcdz

Wish

We would probably prefer to increase the drop rate at least slightly....

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:53

#48

Arkode

peace out lolz

Yes,im being inconsiderate but my opinion is as follows: I got a nice stash of 6k radiants before this happened(fsc is frickin awesome) so ima spend my time being amused by this thread because *some*(yes there are people who couldnt do this) you didnt have enough foresight to save up...and now ur groaning about it XD

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:51

#49

Zaderules

I'd suggest maybe increasing the rate of forge prize boxes? Anybody up for this? D:

Given that you have enough crystals to make 100% success rate, shouldn't there be at least 20% chance of forge prize boxes coming out? or some %, idk. It relies on luck, but if you are lucky, you can progress and won't worry that much about not having enough crystals! :D

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:52

#50

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

sorry, foresight? you mean you saw this coming?
and by the way, I hoarded my 800 radiants before starting heating DVS, Supernova, SSS and GF. I had my share, but I can't go on.

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The New Forge System CONCERNING Issues