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A way to Improve Forum Standards set by OOO

247 replies [Last post]
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:20
#51
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Not bad, but not good

As the forums are now, we are encouraged to moderate each other. Whenever someone swears, within a post or three someone else will tell them to edit their post as not to get banned. The one who swore doesn't feel attacked and fixes their mistake, and the one who pointed it out doesn't feel like the forum police/the law. Under your system, players would be banned instead of merely told to fix their mistake. No one wins.

The idea itself would be a great one if our community was filled with those who will do anything to anger other forumers. We don't have that problem. Flame wars are rare and eventually locked, and most players don't insult each other to the point of emotional destruction. The idea would be very helpful if our community was bigger and badder, but we are small.

And lastly, there is a big difference between constructive criticism and flat out insults. Instead of keeping quiet, make a rebuttal. Prove to us why our points are wrong and if your rebuttal is strong, we'll change our minds. :) Don't feel bad to acknowledge the flaws either, as ignoring them or refusing to acknowledge them while you are so active in this thread will hurt your credibility.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:31
#52
Xtweeterx's picture
Xtweeterx

I pretty much can't tell if some of these posts (such as Feyi) hold true and are "becificial".

But I honestly think this system would work really well to eradicate subtle personal attacks and forced opinions.

One question: What about trolls/haters like Rezzler and Dragneel-Wiki?

@Fangel

Still. better safe than sorry.

And I've always told myself like a year or 2 ago "If you don't have anything positive to say, or can't say it normally, don't say anything at all. You're only making a fool of yourself in return".

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:33
#53
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

But I honestly think this system would work really well to eradicate subtle personal attacks and forced opinions.

You really don't know how we operate.

Could you at least destroy the Shadow Copy in the General Discussion?

Arc, the fact is that even if they get forum-banned, they'll just make another account.

You are basically backseat moderating.

Back seat moderating in short is when someone uses the rules to get someone to do what they see is right.

And that is what you are doing. Sure, it's pretty subtle, shrouded in paragraphs of politician-talk, but you, in essence, want people to:

  • Refrain from any kind of act that you, and only you, deem offensive. What if I said the word arc, or anything containing the three letters arranged in that order was offensive to be because boomerangs are arcs and once a boomerang gave my non-existent pet dog a concussion? I would plead trauma and yell "I'm being emotionally neglected and oppressed! I don't want to have to put up with this junk!" I would file petitions, I would leave Shadow Copies everywhere to advertise my side, I would do pretty much what you're doing. And both have equal defensibly.
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:37
#54
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Chilltheshadow

Lol. Thanks for bringing some humour into the thread.

You have to realise why I am dismissing what some of the things people are saying. If I knew what they were saying is right I would 100% turn around and say so. But I know for a fact that some of the arguments against the idea are flawed. People are talking from personal opinion. I am speaking from experience and fact. Not because I think I am clever or what not. But because I am involved in using the system I am talking about. Believe me it works. You can see how easy it is for yourself. Just pop over to http://store.steampowered.com/ sign up and see how easy it is to report someone breaking the rules. This sounds very sinister, but you hopefully get what I am saying.

Yes it is easy to report someone and yes the system is prone to abuse. But the system here can just as easily be abused as well as it is now. The steam forum gets millions of people flowing through each discussion everyday. I mainly focus on one game site forum. Believe me I have had so many people report things for unnecessary reasons, 90% of the time (when the system is abused) its on a personal basis. In these situations I mark them as resolved and speak to both parties involved. The situation is resolved there and then.

If there is a genuine report of rule breaking I use the report system as a warning. So now that person has been warned once. I leave a comment in the discussion to notify the offender of the offence, quoting the rule broken. If he is reported again, a ban is imposed depending on the severity of the situation. I normally allow 3 warnings for minor offences and a straight up ban if it is a major offence. All this is explained to me by the Game developers. So I can't abuse my power. Again this stops people from getting into heated discussions because I have removed the person and so obviously he can't carry on rule breaking. This keeps the forum calm and pro active.

You have to appreciate that the steam forum can be a very difficult place. I can't say with confidence that 100% of the people using the steam forum are over 13. But I have never had a situation where someone has reported someone for saying words like 'crap' and 'damn' as Mushy-Bucket has stated. If that is an issue you think will happen here it obviously says something about the age of people playing this game. But this system will promote responsibility believe it or not.

Obviously 000s will do things how they see fit. They have very capable CM/GMs and I think out of respect we shouldn't be saying they don't care much about the forum, or they can't manage it because they are a small team. Whether 000s can or can't sacrifice time to change the way we report people here, that is for them to decide. I am only showing them how simple this way is. All reports will be sent to an alternate sub forum on this site. They can only access it. Names of the offenders and the name of the person reporting will all be clearly visible, along with the reason why the person was reported. Again it will be 000s sole judgement on what they deem as an offence that warrants action taken. This way their email doesn't have tonnes of players being reported and they can focus on technical issues or what ever you crazy people love sending them via email.

I hope this clears up some things. Excuse any grammatical mistakes. I typed this up very fast, as I have to prepare dinner in literally 10mins.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:54
#55
Mushy-Bucket's picture
Mushy-Bucket
---

Fangel said it very well, much nicer than myself, for sure:
"Prove to us why our points are wrong and if your rebuttal is strong, we'll change our minds. :) Don't feel bad to acknowledge the flaws either, as ignoring them or refusing to acknowledge them while you are so active in this thread will hurt your credibility."
That pretty much sums up one of the major problems with this thread.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:55
#56
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Fangel

That is an awesome response! I wish I had more people with your attitude over at the steam forum. Truly it would make things easier =)

On every forum things do get out of hand and yes threads are locked or players come in and help resolve the situation. However the person violating the rules can come back to another thread and do the same there. In the 2 years I have been around here I have seen many threads derailed and many people exposed to personal attacks. It happens everywhere, so don't think I'm saying the sk forum is hell and everywhere else is heaven =)

You could argue What's the difference with how we report people here? Well I explained that in numerous posts, why this way is much more simple and quicker than flat our emailing 000s. The post is flagged and 000s can easily view the report click the thread link automatically generated in the report and view the specific post. It's how it works on the steam forum. Then action can be taken if appropriate.

As Xtweeterx has said it will eradicate subtle personal attacks and forced opinions by reporting the repeated offenders, we can't deny who they are and get rid of them. Yes it sounds harsh but that's life and if someone wants to troll they can leave. This isn't a personal club/fun house. It is a forum to discuss things related to Spiral Knights, there is a big difference.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:55
#57
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

too much flame, too many attacks on the past and on what you see. could you just forget who posted and make some serious posts please?

now, I have some kind of knowledge on how would this system work (I've seen it in the forums I've been). so, I can say it works fine on its own. I think though that right now we don't need it that much. the active community of the english forums consists of 30-50 people (making assumtions on the guys of the arsenal, editors and gremlin chatter). we would need a bigger community to need this system in place. I mean, we don't even need moderators, we use GMs and CoMas for moderators.
the reporting system you suggest is fine and all, but I don't think it's needed. besides, it would give to our moderators much more work to do in reading all the warnings tha will arrive. in a few words, for this to work, we need a bigger community so we will need some full time forum mods that can read warnings without having something else to do.

now, I would like to stress a couple of things you have been sistematically ignoring in other threads.
do NOT publicize your thread. I mean it. it gives you only bad reputation. I can bet this isn't what you want. if you want a thing to happen, make the thing discussable (like you are doing) and the discussion will surely attract people.
you have said you disagree so many times with so many people around here without giving an f on thir arguments, and just because they referenced to past events. man, you can't do that. if you want them to stop, you have to adddress their points and make your answer non-biased by past events. that will at least make them doubt of their reason.

now, some other issues with posts I saw.

This will stop all forms of rule breaking. -Arcknightdelta

nothing will stop them, ever. there will always be someone flaming, trolling or breaking the rules in some way. you are a moderator on steam, and the fact you are there means they need you, aye?

The system is also too subjective. There are people who don't care at all, and there are people who think crap or darn are bad words. -Mushy-Bucket

yes, the reporting system is subjective, but if 300 people report me and I've done nothing, I won't get banned. maybe those 300 will recieve a warning ("ok boy, we tolerate that people have alts, but not to this extenct"). until the report itself doesn't have consequences, the only thing is that we make moderators waste time, which is why we need full time mods to get this thing running.

and this is the sort of thing that makes me genuinely wonder how you're qualified to manage anything, considering you can't even manage your own thread without sinking into personal insults -Retequizzle

you know what happened yesterday, yes? wouldn't you be a bit tired (and pissed off) after a day of arguing?
but the reson I cited this is actually not this one. moderators usually stop being in the role when they are personally involved with the discussion. I think it's one of the reasons why OOO staff cannot talk about in game things. you cannot judge a person from one single event.

"Also, I do think you all should drop your emotions from yesterday and stop trying to shoot the idea down simply because of yesterday. Even if it is connected, have some decency."
It's completely connected to yesterday. He doesn't seem to see that the staff in fact does not seem to take much interest in these ideas, seeing as they locked and graveyarded all the previous threads, and gave him the relatively standard E-mail about suggestions. -Mushy-Bucket

let's separeate into things shall we?

It's completely connected to yesterday.

you make it seem like a bad thing because of it. it's not. it shouldn't be. if annilation, tweeter of sirius would make a good suggestion, I would still consider it a good suggestion. why are you going this way?

He doesn't seem to see that the staff in fact does not seem to take much interest in these ideas, seeing as they locked and graveyarded all the previous threads, and gave him the relatively standard E-mail about suggestions.

the staff closed those threads because of personal insults that started flying in the first thread and some other, and because they kept reposting them. they were against the rules and so they closed them. this doesn't mean that they don't care. as I said into other threads, some parents out there might be starting to sue OOO for this. it's a possibility, and I would take the murphy's law way on this.
and you get standard e-mail responses for everything. even my semi wall of text had a standard e-mail response, and I got another one after a while.

Also, I do think you all should drop your emotions from yesterday and stop trying to shoot the idea down simply because of yesterday. Even if it is connected, have some decency. -

I think pretty much everyone should do this.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 13:59
#58
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Thank you

That is the post we all needed to hear.

However, even with your experience, try to be open to other player's ideas. They can be opinionated, but unfortunately your views on how well this system would work on this community is an opinion too. It's a fact that the system works, but an opinion that it works here, on these forums.

Take their insults with a grain of salt, but look beyond it. You know this system can be abused, but you believe the abuse that happens is part of the package. So far, quite a few players on this thread have shown that they do not find the freedoms they give up for this security to be worthwhile, and as this community is generally open and caring (when not sarcastic or frustrated) I see no reason to give the power of banning players to each other.

Also keep in mind that Three Rings has very few community managers. I know we have at least two, but they took several hours to notice the threads that were exploding with negativity yesterday, and fail to see many other cases of severe insults. That is why we must moderate ourselves - instead of relying on higher ups to force smiles onto us, we should smile. They're contagious!

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 14:00
#59
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Mushy-Bucket

I can't really respond to everything you say. You think this is about yesterday when it isn't. I got over that very quickly. So to avoid any more personal attacks I rather not go into things from yesterday. Thanks.

Everything else that you have mentioned I think I went over it in post #54 mainly. I have responded to your comments in past posts where ever I deemed it beneficial or necessary to avoid any arguments.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 14:26
#60
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Fangel

So far, quite a few players on this thread have shown that they do not find the freedoms they give up for this security to be worthwhile, and as this community is generally open and caring (when not sarcastic or frustrated) I see no reason to give the power of banning players to each other.

No1s freedom is given up. Everything is as it was. The only reason people will feel their freedom is given up is if they feel they can't do things that might warrant a warning. Before I was made moderator I had every right as a community forum user to post what ever I wanted. Honestly as a moderator you lose that freedom then. You become a role model and must act in a way that people look up to.

Nobody has the power to ban. They have the power to express why someone should be banned or why something should be stopped without having to divulge in long winded open discussions. For example what people do already when they disagree on something. All that will be avoided. Again I know this because when someone is reported on steam the reporter types up a small reason why the person they are reporting is rule breaking. I then look into it and have to make a fair ethical unbiased decision.

Also keep in mind that Three Rings has very few community managers. I know we have at least two, but they took several hours to notice the threads that were exploding with negativity yesterday, and fail to see many other cases of severe insults. That is why we must moderate ourselves - instead of relying on higher ups to force smiles onto us, we should smile. They're contagious!

You only need 1 person. Especially for one game. I have seen a number of GMs and a CM on here so they have definitely more than 1. That's why my idea is effective here. We report the player the report gets stored as a thread would in an alternative sub forum. 000s looks at it when they want. We essentially create that log for them. I'm sure if a bunch of 13 plus year olds on the steam forum can do this, you guys are just as capable =)

That is very noble how you say we must moderate, but then we go into that whole back seat moderating thing. Don't get me wrong I know 100% what you mean. But our moderating won't remove people who continuously rule break. Surely it's not up to you to 'parent' a player. We flag the offender give a legitimate reason why the post is in violation of the rules and move on. That's all we do. The rest is up to 000s.

None of this is coming off the the top of my head. It's all in place at the steam forum. So it's not something new.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 14:35
#61
Xtweeterx's picture
Xtweeterx
@Fangel

"we should smile. They're contagious!"

Oh snap

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 14:40
#62
Fangel's picture
Fangel
We can express a reason to ban as is

The complain button in-game does that fairly well.

Honestly I believe what you are asking for is a complain button for the forums. I believe that would be a very simple and arguably great addition to our current forums.

Your argument in your second paragraph is good. I don't believe posters should be banned for minute offenses, such as swearing or minor insults. Look to Fehzor - she'll tell you how terrible it is to be banned for swearing infrequently and accidentally (the flow of language sometimes calls for swears) while being a strong part of the community. A player could list up a storm of swears, but that's easily fixed by removing that comment. Major offenses, such as strong insults (telling someone to kill themselves), should be dealt with stronger, such as muting your knight or preventing you from posting on the forums for a set time.

Edit: Oop! You added more to your post! Let be add a bit more here.

Game masters are under no obligation to moderate the forums, or I don't believe do. Community managers are the ones that do this, and the two English community managers I know of are Eurydice and Hyperion (is Aphrodite one too? Or are they swapped with Hyperion? I forget) and we have so many threads to take as look at. They also are only obligated to moderate as much as their contract tells them to, which I don't know the hours of.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 14:39
#63
Mushy-Bucket's picture
Mushy-Bucket
---

Avoiding those arguments makes it look like you can't support or defend your idea from the opposing side.
I'm not saying reply to 100% of everybody's posts, but at least don't strategically be silent about most of the body of people's lengthy posts.

Like you aren't replying at all to the fact that the active community on the English forum is around 30-50, meaning we don't need some major system.

The freedom thing is pretty simple. I've never liked the flagging system in that (similar to something Feyi said earlier) it promotes the tattle tale system. "I don't like you, so I'll follow your posts closely to report you for the smallest of things."
There can't be a soul on Earth that likes tattle tales.

EDIT: What you just said there Fangel would be a perfect addition to the forums. Getting banned for language on a 13-and-up game shouldn't be a thing. Ahem. PG-13 movies are rife with it. So are T games, which is what 13+ means.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 15:04
#64
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Thunder-The-Bright

Appreciate the words. Very sensible suggestions and advice.

No disrespect to you or anyone but I have read the rules and posting my thread in another thread is not against the rules. I didn't just randomly post it in there either. Again not to sound disrespectful but if people get bad rep for posting a link of a thread to convey a point, is bad on rep I see that view as ignorance more than anything else. My reason to post it in response to Feyi-Feyi's opinion of me is justifiable. Apologies if I upset anyone.

Regarding me not responding to everything that someone said. I didn't feel it productive to explain certain things because some people felt this has got to do with yesterdays events. To avoid more flamethrowering I ignored it.

Note I have already received an email from 000s entailing that they have seen this thread. I honestly don't know if they will add this in. We can only suggest something to help. But at least we made our suggestion aware to them right?

Edit: The 30 or so thing is not an issue also. If out of that 30-50 people 5 or 6 are people who break rules continuously they get removed. Then already progress is made. As long as the system is in place it doesn't matter if 10 people are active. There is no limit to how effective this system can be if the people who break rules are removed.

Edit 2: Thunder-The-Bright if we had the reporting system you could have flagged my supposed advertising of my thread. With a legit reason why it is wrong. That way you wouldn't need to tell me what to do. I wouldn't need to respond to you. If 000s saw it as an offence they would have every right to warn/advise me. Not another player. Actually we do get people reporting people for advertising say their youtube channel on the steam forum. No1 posts a comment saying what you just said to me (I know you're being helpful) so you see this new method will avoid any exchange of words. This can be applied to any example.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 15:33
#65
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ guys

Is it just me or is every comment made by Mushy-Bucket borderline negative? Please tell me so I can maybe open my heart a little to the things he says. I hate being rude but I don't like being forced into saying things I don't want. I think I made it clear why I didn't respond to certain points on several occasions.

Everything that is related to my suggestion I hope I answered. If I haven't it's not because I deliberately ignored it. I am only one person after all, who is trying to sort out a lot of paperwork for the upcoming weeks. If I missed something out please say so in a new post. Saves me going back seeing what you posted and seeing the response I gave. Not trying to be lazy but It's getting late and I'm getting ready for bed soon. If it's anything I deem negative or personal I won't answer it. I'll report it =) as instructed by 000s.

If I don't respond after an hour, I'm singing some Z's

Edit: Mushy-Bucket you wrote There can't be a soul on Earth that likes tattle tales. . In business if there is a member of staff who is being disruptive or counter productive he is reported through a structured approach using SOPs. This forum isn't business as such, and it definitely isn't a play ground for school kids. Anyone breaking rules will be dealt with appropriately by 000s. Zaffy-Laffy talks about educating offenders rather than outright banning them. I think Fangel picked what I said up very quickly. People wont be banned outright. Just as I do on the steam forum. I warn the offender, make them aware of their offence and leave them. They do it again, they get warned again. 3rd time it's a ban. There is no feeling sorry for that person.

As I said before. If people don't like getting this system added there has to be a reason why? Based on experience dealing with rule breakers it's because they feel caged. They can't post freely. But if you're going to mess around then honestly you shouldn't have that freedom.

Again this isn't me being a dictator or something. To have a productive forum you need productive people who are willing to show respect and kindness or modesty in every situation, to have that you need people sticking to rules, to have that you need to make people aware of the rules (Feyi-Feyi believes only 1% know the rules), to have that you need a system like this. That's why every forum I have ever used outside SK has something similar to what I am suggesting have put in place here.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 16:18
#66
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

Arc, could you at least remove the Shadow Copy?

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:07
#67
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Sandwich-Potato

Arc, the fact is that even if they get forum-banned, they'll just make another account

I answered this in a previous post already, raised by Mushy-Bucket. In short once a person is warned or banned they normally learn their lesson and don't do it again. If they make an alt and break rules again the alt is banned. The cycle will continue. But then you have to really consider that that person is just an idiot who enjoys rule breaking. I can't put it any nicer.

And that is what you are doing. Sure, it's pretty subtle, shrouded in paragraphs of politician-talk, but you, in essence, want people to:
Refrain from any kind of act that you, and only you, deem offensive. What if I said the word arc, or anything containing the three letters arranged in that order was offensive to be because boomerangs are arcs and once a boomerang gave my non-existent pet dog a concussion? I would plead trauma and yell "I'm being emotionally neglected and oppressed! I don't want to have to put up with this junk!" I would file petitions, I would leave Shadow Copies everywhere to advertise my side, I would do pretty much what you're doing. And both have equal defensibly.

Ok and this isn't in any way a rude response or personal attack. Nevermind I shall answer! But honestly you haven't said anything here other than make fun of me. You are mocking my idea because you feel as if I have come up with this suggestion to get back at people from yesterday. Again I didn't and I am not. It's all in the past.

I haven't set any rules here have I? This system if you haven't gathered already will allow players to essentially flag a comment made by a player that has broken the rules by 000s. So by you saying people will be punished by my belief of what I alone find punishable is utter rubbish.

E.g. if this system was in place. I wouldn't need to even say outright publicly you are making fun of me, that is wrong blah blah. Most likely you don't care and will carry on (not saying you will, worst case scenario and I'm using this as an example). So all I would do is click the small flag in the top right corner of your post, a report box will pop up. I will write "trolling for no reason" and then submit my report. The report will form a new thread in the "Reported sub forum" and remain there for a GM/CM to see. If someone else thought you were being a troll they will report you as well and their comment gets added to the thread originally started by me. This is exactly how the steam forum reporting system works.

Edit: Atm I have to go through a long winded process of emailing 000s, typing in my email, the knights name, the link to the thread, a reason why I am reporting you etc.....not only am I just adding to the junk mail 000s probably already gets a lot of it also gives them more of a headache. The sub forum will store all reported posts and 000s can look at it when ever they want.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:02
#68
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

What do you mean to get back at me from yesterday? I never knew of your existence until today, or at least remembered you did.

Oh, and the part about vulgar stuff? There was a thread about Rule 34 and Spiral Knights which recently was necroed and died again, which had a CM comment on it without locking it. It seems that everyone is lax about those rules.

Also, dat Shadow Copy, please remove.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:35
#69
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Sandwich-Potato

Apologies I was still editing my post. I made a mistake there. Definitely a stupid mistake on my behalf. I assumed something that wasn't true. Sorry. But I did make that edit in my post before I read yours. Not sure though.

Oh, and the part about vulgar stuff? There was a thread about Rule 34 and Spiral Knights which recently was necroed and died again, which had a CM comment on it without locking it. It seems that everyone is lax about those rules.

I don't understand any of this. What vulgar stuff? I'm talking about 000s rule breaking in general. I haven't mentioned a specific rule. What is rule 34? Which thread is it? Can you post a link? Lax about which rules? If you want me to respond to you please be more specific. Otherwise it seems irrelevant and will be ignored. That goes out to everyone, I always provide proof by posting a link to a legitimate site, please do same if you wish to make your suggestion a valid one. Thanks

Edit: in the first 10 pages of general discussion there are 20 or so shadow copies. Have you posted in all of those when they were made, asking for them to be removed by the original poster? Why is mine bothering you? I'm not breaking any of 000s rules. Or this another player made reputation rule thing I don't know about?

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 17:53
#70
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

Rule 34 is a rule that there is "immature" content of stuff on the internet, and SK was no exception, apparently.

And yes, I did ask for all those Shadow Copies to be removed, as they were not relevant to those subforums the copies were in.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 18:15
#71
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Sandwich-Potato

Rule 34 is a rule that there is "immature" content of stuff on the internet, and SK was no exception, apparently.

Not making complete sense to me. Sorry.

Where can I read this? I see no rule 34 here http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1413

I need to actually see the thread please. I can't relate my suggestion to something that doesn't exist in my eyes. Please post the link here.

Edit: And yes, I did ask for all those Shadow Copies to be removed, as they were not relevant to those subforums the copies were in.

Just went quickly through the first 5 pages of the GD forum. I couldn't see anything in there that suggests you asked the OP directly to remove their shadow copy. Unless you reported it to 000s. But as far as I am aware when I made that technical problem thread a GM/CM moved my thread to the Technical forum and left a shadow copy. So I see no harm in it being there. If it bothers you ignore it and visit the Suggestion forum to see this thread.

Edit: I'm off to sleep. So you have 8 or so hours to find if. No rush so don't worry.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 18:54
#72
Zaffy-Laffy's picture
Zaffy-Laffy
I've personally seen my share

I've personally seen my share of r34 pictures, but I don't share them here, what does that imply?

@Hollows + Arc, Please do not suggest we do not uphold anyone's else opinions but ourselves. We respect what you think about how horrendous the forums as a community has become. However, I am starting to think you are not respecting our opinions, beliefs and even facts that we are stating.

Let's recap, we believe in the concept of self-censoring, that is we make up the actual rules, following the basic guidelines. You know all those gremlin chatter folks that spam posts in their 'Count to 5,000' thread, that's breaking the guidelines! Do we ban them, of course no, because it's meant for fun! Saying any bad words and everyone starts chipping in and criticizing the other.

If you can say you have experience in moderating, I can say I have experience in social psychology and suggest how the social normality forms under this system we use here. I even believe that we have more people here who've watched porn than the little 13 year old children you are trying to protect. Again bringing up the point of maturity : we, the majority of the game, are indeed old and mature to know what to do and what to say at the right time, and that we have pledged to bring about the best of public behavior in the presence of other strangers.

By the way, "you are free to come back" means I will ignore what you said in this thread if you choose to ignore what you've said in this thread too.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 19:02
#73
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

The point is, since you want everyone to follow the rules, you yourself should not be exempt from them.

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 19:18
#74
Xtweeterx's picture
Xtweeterx
STOP

I WILL GET A DEGREE IN GAME MAKING AND GET HIRED AS A GM TO REMOVE ALL R34 POSTS/THREADS AND REQUEST SAID ART TAKEDOWNS!

...If I could.

POINT IS, IT'S DIABOLICAL HELL TO THE EYES AND VISUAL BANKS TO ANYTHING THAT SUCCUMBS TO IT!

Sun, 02/02/2014 - 19:37
#75
Vesperaldus's picture
Vesperaldus
@Zaffy-Laffy: I'm not sure

@Zaffy-Laffy: I'm not sure why you addressed me.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 02:24
#76
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Zaffy-Laffy

I've personally seen my share of r34 pictures, but I don't share them here, what does that imply?

I don't think it's my place to judge the sort of person you are for watching 'r34' pictures. Please don't put me in that situation. But the reason you don't share them here is because you are sensible I guess. I don't think anyone has shared 'r34' pictures here? But this isn't necessarily to do with 'r34' pictures. Having an effective reporting system here will help deal with ALL form of rule breaking. These are the rules I am talking about because it is relevant http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1413

Please do not suggest we do not uphold anyone's else opinions but ourselves. We respect what you think about how horrendous the forums as a community has become. However, I am starting to think you are not respecting our opinions, beliefs and even facts that we are stating.

Please quote anything I have said that may suggest you to believe this. Again you know how 'horrendous the forums as a community has become' yet you don't want a system that enables us to report people much more easier than what we have now? So you enjoy a horrendous community? How can I believe that a forum is run by children who know themselves the forum is 'horrendous' are you mad?

Let's recap, we believe in the concept of self-censoring, that is we make up the actual rules, following the basic guidelines. You know all those gremlin chatter folks that spam posts in their 'Count to 5,000' thread, that's breaking the guidelines! Do we ban them, of course no, because it's meant for fun! Saying any bad words and everyone starts chipping in and criticizing the other

Players are making their own rules where the game developers have already set very clear standard rules to follow? Isn't this called teenage rebellion? A parent sets the house rules but their teenage son does as he wants thinking he knows best. I showed what you wrote here to another game developer over at another forum, where players follow the rules already set in place, and where all forms of rule breaking is kept to minimum. He laughed at it.

Gremlin chatter is designed for off topic talk. Almost every forum has it. Hardly any moderator I know of ventures into Gremlin chatter forums. Because it is off topic the rules that apply there are limited.

I even believe that we have more people here who've watched porn than the little 13 year old children you are trying to protect.

Zaffy-Laffy. Enough with the porn and protecting the young. I haven't mentioned this anywhere here. I have mentioned all forms of rule breaking, nothing specific, obviously posting porn is against the rules here, you don't even need to read the rules to know that so please stop basing your case on only that. Here read the rules. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1413 again.

If you like to enforce the rules so much, go back to your 10 year olds littered game and moderate there, not here, because we are not like the other games there. Maybe if we become such, then we will invite you back.

I hate having to enforce rules on those who are too incompetent to follow it themselves. So no in general I hate having to repeat the rules unless I know I am making a difference. Please don't be personal here. I haven't asked you to leave. I have no intention of stopping to making this community a place where everyone sticks to the rules set out by 000s. If you read them you will see many of them being broken daily by the same people. But you already know this. For the time being I use the email system to report anyone I see rule breaking.

By the way, "you are free to come back" means I will ignore what you said in this thread if you choose to ignore what you've said in this thread too.

I know what you meant I already responded to it. There is no denying I am trying to make improvements. Whether you think they are needed or not means nothing really, especially if my idea makes any form of improvement. If I was promoting rule breaking which some people do here (as you clearly know) then it would be fair to ask me to leave. But I'm not. So sorry I'm staying. This is only one idea of many.

Anyone reading this. Has Zaffy-Laffy made any clear attempt to discuss my suggestion? It just feels he is blowing off steam. So if I start ignoring his posts please don't lecture me.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 02:30
#77
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Sandwich-Potato

The point is, since you want everyone to follow the rules, you yourself should not be exempt from them.

Please quote where I have said or might have assumed I would be except from this form of reporting system? Please quote the post # as well.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 03:15
#78
The-Worst-Knight's picture
The-Worst-Knight
Also topic names should

Also topic names should describe topics. If you got question- put your question in subject and add some information in the body. If you want to tell about something, don't call your thread "One thing...".
Uh oh... What is it about? Potato, nuclear bomb, sofa? It can be anything as long as you do not open it.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 03:27
#79
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
Back to spread the hate >:)

1. Easier, quicker way of reporting offenders. No need to mail 000s everytime. This will be a separate system where all reports are sent to 000s. Or like on the steam forum. It is sent to a separate sub forum that only moderators can access. Essentially they are similar to threads. Every time a player reports the same player in violation, their report gets added to the original reported thread as if it were a comment.

So, I can now claim a ban strike against Mawashingmachine for the crime of Bigamy in her fanfic? Hooray!

2. No need to respond to the offender if you have already voiced your concern in the report.
3. As a result less bickering, insulting, arguing.

point 2 and 3 sounds almost the same, you might as well combine them into one point

4. No more 'pointless' threads. You have already expressed your concern by submitting a player report. So you don't need to satisfy yourself by creating a new thread expressing your concern about how things are currently.

But can I atleast celebrate their ban without risking getting banned myself?

5. Encourages players to play a more pro active role in making our forum a friendlier place. I see a lot of people trying to back seat moderate. Trying to enforce the rules that aren't even in the rules provided by 000s. This way people can report an offending player by referring to a certain rule that was broken in the Official rules. All without seeming they are the law. As their report is submitted to an actual moderator. There is no player to player interaction when someone reports an offender.

Making forum a better place? No, forum is meant to be a place of nastiness and I feel this can be an exploit for some ppl to ban others who have different voice, for example, I hate Draycos and his thread and he has officially made it clear that he does not respect me as an opponent and ignored my attempt for peace. So in revenge, I can report him to have relation with Mawashingmachine (since they are both 'dragons') and had him banned along with mawashingmachine, now I can spread my words of hate where ever I want in the forum with the voice of others silenced. Jokes aside, this system can be abused by forumers to attack/blackmail each other (post another radiant thread and I am gonna report u for spam!)

6. Everyone is now under the law. There are no exceptions. You break a rule, you are reported. You don't get away with it. There is no cheeky remark and then say what ever you want to say. Now everything you say that is in violation of the rules can easily be flagged and a small history of your offences is built up.

Can't argue with that, some ppl are really getting on my nerves on this forum and I would really like to see them getting banned. Senkimist(annliton), Tweeter, Sirius, I am still here and I am WATCHING YOU.

"OMG ur comments r so NEGAtive, I am so offended :("

Yes, I am just like Zaffy, Contri and the rest of the forum scums, we are here to oppose to anything that is righteuos, we express our opinion no matter how harsh or nasty they are, we may be banned in the future but nothing can wipe away our freedom to express, and may I plz ask, which forum where you moderating prior to the posting of this thread, because a system that works in one community doesn't always work in the other community.

Sure, I am a hateful nasty bad guy, but I am glad that I am not the Mary sue who speaks soft, joyful air through your ears, afterall, what is the point of Batman, if there is not a Joker? Joker in a way completes Batman, just like how the bad voice on Sk forum completes the the good voice on SK forum. Silencing us would be essentially silencing urself, without arguement and discussion, forum would cease to exist, I hope u understand that.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 03:33
#80
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ The-Worst-Knight

The title is absolutely fine and completely relevant to what I am suggesting. Here is the definition of the word Etiquette

Etiquette (/ˈɛtɨkɛt/ or /ˈɛtɨkɪt/, French: [e.ti.kɛt]) is a code of behavior that delineates expectations forsocial behavior according to contemporaryconventional norms within a society, social class, orgroup.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 03:37
#81
Zaffy-Laffy's picture
Zaffy-Laffy

Know what? I'm done. I know you will refuse to change your mindset, I wouldn't too. But you wish to attack individual points, only to subdue them and eventually me, instead of seeing the big picture and the links. I am weak, I know that, people argue and I couldn't hold back. You win. I will only recap my points.

We are legion. We create content, we self-censor. We aren't 10 year old whiners. We know what to say at what time and what place.
Maturity is self-censorship. Maturity is knowing what to do at what time and what place. Maturity is lacking in the younger generation.

Say what you want, what you must. I'm done. I do not wish to beat around the bush with my points, only to get bashed back with criticisms rather than actual arguments. In fact, that's all I see, criticisms rather than arguments. Best we settle this with a public poll instead?

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 04:15
#82
The-Worst-Knight's picture
The-Worst-Knight
@Arcknightdelta

I didn't mean your topic, it's fine. I just wanted to say that it's hard to read forum with so many useless titles. Topic with a good name has more chances to be read. Imagine if novelist will give name to manual and instead of "Phony KTX-300B" he will call it "Awesome stuff". How would you find manual that you need?

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 05:25
#83
Dragneel-Wiki's picture
Dragneel-Wiki

Arck, you talk a lot, repeat the same crap, pls... stahp.

I didn't add anything to the discussion? Well...

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 06:44
#84
Feyi-Feyi's picture
Feyi-Feyi

I made something for you Zaffy

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 07:04
#85
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

shadow copies on multiple sections can be considered spamming. as the name implies, they are copies of the thread. it's like you copied the thread every time you leave the copies. in fact, I don't know why there is this system in place, cause all I see in it is thread spamming. same can be applied in multiple posts with links of your thread, but since they aren't taking space on any discussion, they aren't as bad. it's still spamming though.
that being said, your second reaction to my post make me think you read my post wrong. I agree that the idea is good, but I disagree on the fact that we need it, or that the community managers can handle it. from your own example, all those posts in which you made a link could be reposrted by multiple people, and those reports have to be read, and it would take time. I'm sure that right now we don't want to overload OOO with this muliplied for every single reportable post.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 07:11
#86
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Midnight-Dj

Honestly I have explained and given counter arguments to all of what you have said.

To keep it short. It's about responsibility, everything you mentioned is personal opinion, in my opinion if you feel you can't act responsibly you will find it very difficult to use the system. Note if 13 year olds are able to know when to report someone breaking the rules I'm sure you guys can

The forum in mention is the Steam Forum.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 08:45
#87
Vesperaldus's picture
Vesperaldus
So... you expect Arcknight to

So... you expect Arcknight to take your criticism yet when he criticizes you all you do is complain that he isn't arguing? I'm lost because everyone keeps telling Arcknight to have their point of view yet they can't have any point of view than their own. Oh wait, I think that all can be summed up with one word: hypocrite.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 09:28
#88
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Actually there are a few unspoken rules

I guess we all assume others know them, but that's not always the case. The examples Zaffy-Laffy gave are a few things we expect forumers to just do to keep the community nice and clean. Leaving shadow copies isn't breaking any rules, but it clutters up subforums with threads that are irrelevant to said subforum. There's a higher chance you'll get the wrong kind of people in your thread too, especially when moving to the suggestion forum.

And if you're willing to say which game's forum you moderate and under what name, that might be the proof people are asking for. I seem to recall you saying you moderated the "Don't Starve" forums in the past, but I don't know if that's what you're referring to now. If you're uncomfortable sharing that information, that's fine. I wouldn't want to put your privacy at stake without you willingly sharing that info.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 09:45
#89
Rating's picture
Rating
What might help your

What might help your suggestion gain some traction would be some sort of analysis/mockup of how this type of forum can accommodate what you are proposing.

I'm on a few different forums for various purposes and I do like the ones that mention post count/join date/member status/completed transactions/warn %/testimonials/etc etc etc as well as allowing easy ways to interact with the forum (ie report button) so I could definitely support something like that.

HOWEVER I am unfamiliar with this specific forum and if that is within the scope of reality given what we have. If it would take a major revamp/major technological change (which would come with a large cost) I do not support this suggestion given that I think the money could be better used elsewhere to improve the actual game.

PS - I believe that claiming that you are a moderator on another forum and using it as 'ammo' to claim that you are better suited to propose something like this is where you went wrong. Many people have many skills outside of Spiral Knights that we could all use to adapt the game one way or another, but the way you worded your experience makes it sound 'holier-than-thou' and I'm sure helped get this suggestion quickly off track.

The question I pose for you is; Is there anything actually wrong with the current way of reporting players on the forum, or is it simply the difficulty of sending in reports that is the issue?

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 10:26
#90
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Fangel

Hi mate, just going to quote a few things. You can make your own judgement.

expect forumers to just do to keep the community nice and clean.

In all my time as a community forum user on forums outside of Spiral Knights I have never heard any of the things people on here believe to be the norm. I don't see how children are expect to keep the community nice and clean when people say things like this, just to amuse themselves and others; Dragneel-Wiki post #83. I'm not offended the slightest, but I can see this sort of behaviour upsetting younger kids.

If 000s allows this to go on it is because currently they don't have a system in place to stop it from happening as everyone has come up with their own rules. It's sort of like how school kids act, you have all formed your own little hierarchy. "We use the rules set by 000s as a basic guideline, we don't know what it says but we know "r34" is a bad thing" in summary of what some are saying here.

Fangel in all honesty I don't mind sharing my steam name. I am very well known on the SK trade forum. I've been trading there for over 2 years in that time I have given my steam name to many traders. I was also known for the "Official Price Checking Thread". I still get mail from randoms asking me to price check their items lol. But I have said I am a moderator on the Steam Forum. The forum that I am moderating is the Don’t Starve forum. That's all you guys need to know, because frankly any more than that is irrelevant to the suggestion I am proposing. Even if I gave you a name, people will just say I could easily have pulled up any name that isn't me. Then I need to provide more proof. So I'd rather not go into all that.

I'm not proving my worth as a moderator to be a moderator here, I'm proving that my suggestion will work because I know a lot about it as I am a moderator. However I have passed on my steam name and the name I go by on Klei Official Forum, to 000s in a separate email. If there is anyone I need to prove anything to its 000s. I mean that as respectfully as possible. If you are still curious, you could always check one of my trade threads. My steam name is clearly visible there.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 10:49
#91
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Rating

You could always sign up for free on the steam forum and see how things operate there. You know what. Maybe you could make a thread on the Don’t Starve forum. Asking what the game is like. I'll post a link to my pinned thread for you to read =)

I made it clear why I made people aware that I am a moderator. Not because I used it to act clever. I said it to prove to people I am fully aware how easy the system is. Because I use it every day when dealing with reports. It literally takes less than a few minutes to resolve most situations as they are so minor. Not to sound rude but how many of you have moderated? If you knew anything about moderating you will know exactly where I am coming from, (in all fairness some of you have intelligently clocked on, others just don't like to follow rules and that is blatantly obvious in their comments) that's why my 'credentials' as a moderator allows me to share my experience in this area. Not necessarily how the system is made, but how it works in practice. I made this very clear in a few posts. So your assumption is wrong based on what I have said no?

Your final question. I answered it several times. How it will get rid of or make 000s aware of people who repeatedly break rules. Please review past comments and the op to guarantee your question is answered. If not I'll happily repeat myself. To add to what I have said, the 000s rules pinned in GD. Go through it. I see all of those rules broken every day here, by the same people, because it is very difficult to report players through an email system every time we see rule breaking. Lol a few have been broken alone in this thread. E.g. blatant trolling. If you can't see that then obviously there is a problem, not with the forum system itself but the people using it as well.

The rest of your post is personal opinions so I can't comment on them. However they are respectable.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 10:56
#92
Momofuku's picture
Momofuku

I thought forum etiquette included not double posting.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 10:58
#93
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Thunder-The-Bright

Apologise mate. I took what you meant wrongly.

Reports are normally only a few words up to a sentence at most. From what I have seen when looking at reported posts people simply say things like "abusive behaviour", "trolling", "spamming". In the same report there is a direct link to the flagged post. You simply click it and take appropriate action. If the post is abusive you delete it, if the person is spamming you leave a comment if you wish entailing how spamming is against the rules so please don't do it. Or you don't need to do anything. You can wait until multiple reports build up on that same player normally 2-3 then remove them or temp ban them. With a reason why they were banned. So hopefully when they come back they don't do it again. Honestly I have never had to ban someone twice. This whole process takes a few minutes.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 11:02
#94
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Momofuku

Thanks for breaking up my triple post. It's much easier for the person reading my response if it isn't mixed up in a wall of text with other people I am responding to.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 11:29
#95
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Err, are you aware what rule 34 is?

From your comments on it it doesn't appear you know what it is. Rule 34 is a meme that branches from the "rules of the internet". There are various rules in there but rule 34 states "if it exists, there's porn of it. No exceptions". Thus bringing "rule 34" to these forums is forbidden. It's not some unspoken rule we created, such as the shadow copy thing.

Secondly, the youngest a player can be and still be following the terms of service is age 13. Unless they are extremely sheltered they will know many obscenities and use them.

A reason why players ask for proof is because we would rather have a claim backed up with evidence. I could claim anything I wanted to, but I can only prove what is true. You may believe that you only need to prove yourself to Three Rings, but by stating a claim to the entire forums, we would want concrete evidence - telling Three Rings won't prove anything to us.

Finally, in response to the first sentence in your first block paragraph, we are a different community. This may be one reason that various people show distaste for this suggestion. Every community is different, and this one has rather interesting inner workings. We create our own norm for our community.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 11:36
#96
Rating's picture
Rating
What I am getting at (and

What I am getting at (and maybe not doing a good job since I know very little about coding) is this: can the forum we have now, given whatever kind of code/technology used to create it, accommodate what is currently being done on Steam? They seem very different to me, so in my Un-expert opinion it looks like it would be a major overhaul to try and accommodate your request, so to the untrained eye the cost may outweigh the benefit. But again, I'm not well versed in HTML so this is way above my head in terms of technological know-how.

I wasn't attacking your experience of being a moderator, merely pointing out the way you are using your experience makes it very easy to want to derail this thread and lose focus on what you're trying to say. For example: Did you really need to say 'How many have you moderated?' to try and belittle me? It was difficult to ignore that comment to put together a neutral and thought provoking response, given that I have very little respect for you as a player.

I think what it boils down to is this:

Our reporting system is a little clunky, but it is possible to report someone. Would it be nice if it was easier on us? Yes it would be. But I personally dont think it makes sense to change things if the costs outweigh the potential benefits.

One claim you make is that it would simplify things for OOO. Do you happen to know that the way things work is an inconvenience to them? I can imagine they must not get many reports per day given how few forum users there are...but then again I personally have no idea.

I don't see how points #2-4 change using either the current system or the new system. Are we forced to respond differently to people we have reported now? I don't see any evidence that points #2-4 have any merit, given that the way we post on the forum won't actually change. (Or am I missing something?)

And that actually goes with 5 and 6 too, since both systems involve the community policing itself and asking players to report other players. The underlying operation doesn't change, just the method with which we provide Three Rings with reports.

In the end like I said I do see some value in implementing a change, but I'd like to see how much it would cost Three Rings to adopt your solution as well as some loosely quantified benefit. For example (this is probably wrong): Three Rings would need to hire an outside web consulting agency for a fee of $150,000, but as a result OOO to need 1 less comminity manager and this could help increase player morale and retention by a factor of X to bring in more revenue, while keeping the forum community a cleaner place. While your idea sounds very nice in theory, the reality may be less glamorous...

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 12:40
#97
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
replies

@ Rating; Thanks for your opinion. In reference to the respect you have for me as a player. I see that as an irrelevant response to my suggestion and I feel your responses are emotional based on your personal opinion of me.

@ Fangel; Sorry no I wasn't aware of that. I am now. Thanks. Regarding my opinion on why I don't feel I need to prove anything. Even 000s has said in an email to me. I don't need to prove I am a moderator to them (000s), the suggestion I have made is a valid one. So......

I respect that this community is 'different' but no community should set their own standards. They should only follow the standards set by the game developers. There is no excuse for anything other than that.

@ others

I honestly don't expect 000s to implement this. I wanted to put this out there so 000s are aware there are people who think this forum and the people using it need improving. If this thread ends up in the graveyard or lost to the bottom of this forum, my purpose for trying to help improve the forum is known, 000s has already acknowledged that. So I am grateful.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 12:39
#98
Rating's picture
Rating
/Sigh I'm just asking

/Sigh

I'm just asking questions to try and help get a better idea if this suggestion is even a remote possibility without significant cost to Three Rings because it could be cool to see some changes to the forum to some degree. Since it doesn't appear to be very well thought out, I'll have to give it a +/- based on what I know now...

-1

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 12:52
#99
Arcknightdelta's picture
Arcknightdelta
@ Rating

Do you think I should know how many people come through these forums? But like I said earlier that doesn't matter. If 20 people used this forum actively and 5 were seen as people who disregard the standards set by 000s, this system will make them aware to 000s because people can easily file multiple reports on those people if they keep breaking rules. That means we will have 5 less trolls using our forum. The email reporting system is good, but I believe the steam one (what I am suggesting) is better because of my experience using it and resolving situations.

And how do you expect me to answer the financial implications this may impact on 000s. You can't be serious? Those sort of questions should be left in consideration with the people who have the appropriate 'credentials'. So to say my idea is not very thought out because your questions are not very thought out in regard to who you should be asking them to is nonsense.

Mon, 02/03/2014 - 13:03
#100
Sandwich-Potato's picture
Sandwich-Potato

Arc, non-relevant topics in other subforums is against the rules. Oh look, you have a copy there.

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