You do understand the other part and I respect you a ton for it because there are way to few people who do so.

Here's a summary I wrote 'cause it's gotta be done sometime and now I'm done with it so I can link to it whenever necessary.

There's pretty much only one proper pro-AT argument: it compensates for high ping, which is really good since SK is a very connection dependent game when it comes to the PvP.

There are on the other hand two good anti-AT arguments:

1. It enhances reach.
2. It effectively makes anything that has a small range gain a greater range.

Due to the above reasons, AT is purely beneficial in all 1v1 situations, whenever you've only got one enemy within range, and still very often when you can hit two enemies at once.

Both sides have very valid arguments so something should be done. Therefore, it's ideal to implement at least one of these changes, preferably two:

• AT's arc angle increases with latency, with 0 ms ping corresponding to 0 degrees of AT and something like 200 ms ping corresponding to 90 degrees (or 45 degrees for guns).
• Lobbies: users may make their own rules for LD, including but not limited to whether AT is permitted or not.

Do note, AT has minimal effect on guns due to various reasons.

• AT doesn't work with guns if you move while shooting.
• Many guns have bullets that are too slow to hit if shot with AT but this depends on whether the opponent is moving and where they are moving, as well as in what pace.
• AT is still highly useful with some guns such as Magnuses and Antiguas, as those have high bullet speeds. Antiguas also have small hitboxes on the bullets, making them harder to aim without AT.

So that's a summary of the AT debate. Hopefully I come across as unbiased but what do I know. I personally use AT with smaller blades in PvP (Brandishes, FoV, etc.). I use no AT when using blades with reach that is bigger than AT's 90 degree arc because it screws with gun aim. I toggle AT as I see necessary in PvE but default it to off as it allows for greater knockback control and hitting multiple enemies.

Achy, m'dear, I know you want to express yourself, but please, elaborate with your English, because bluntly, I don't understand a word of what are you saying.

Oh Feyi, how nice of you to automatically assume every single AT user present here is an "abuser" of it. I suggest you refrain from making such assumptions in future, considering that one of these so-called nonexistent in this thread high ping players is actually right here typing this. I would like to perhaps point you in the direction of my post on the previous page, since there are apparently very few on high ping who wish to throw their opinion in the mix.

@Isral:
I did not specify a name. If you feel attacked by it then that's on your side.
The reason why I write abuser and not user is because I don't have an issue with high ping players who need it.
I have an issue with low ping players who abuse it.

Such butthurt.

@Auto:
I'm currently at work, I'll edit this post once I get home and have the time to write something decent.
Just note that I'm not 'against' AT.
I mostly lobby for lobbies, but Krakob's suggestion where AT correction angle relates to ping is also interesting.

this thread... going to be stay here for long time~
people from all over world come here to complain and defending option which is the most important part of this game
the only option to prevent low bar connection people to leave from this game
the only option to help newbie adapt clockwork
but in coliseum thread... it's a different stories~
those who lose come here to revenge their own fail
those who win seem enjoy watching those who lose complain everyday in coliseum thread...
this is what lockdown suppose to be...
a place to fuel war and a place to beat down unexperienced people...
those who can't stand here just quit and never coming back... sad~ no new face in battle arena
only the strongest can survive... and the weaker shall not return to give their life for the happiness of latency god
lockdown now is dying.. only time will tell when we going to walk without clothes~

On the topic of LD dieing...

Most games do when they have had no new content.. in a year? LD is basically a game in itself. When was the last time we even had a new mini-map to run around in? A newer item to attract the veterans? Hell, it's been ages since I've even see a bombhead (and i still own minimum 3 copies of each that i can sell to vendor for 1 crown... so silly). If the developers decide to stagnate this part of the game, then it will die off compared to the hype it had when new things were implemented.

It'd be a shame, since LD is mad fun.

I like how some people said "I Use AT/AA to improve my aim" like do you even aim bro, no. Ah, I agree with the idea of the customizable thingy mentioned somewhere up there ^ some "pros"(rich scrubs that can't really play, they just convo hella lot) toggle it, it's pretty noticeable if they can hit you 7 times in a row with a vali while moving all over the screen like tf. but anyway, rebel yelled "no one in t2 can play without AA and still be decent" so uh +1

I understand that some people enjoy to play with auto aim.
They are accustomed to it and would feel despoiled it they were removed it.

However, I also don't get why OOO couldn t create a new server without auto aim.
I mean, with all the people who complain about it, their is undoubtedly a problem with it.
People don t want to use it because it removes something or adds something bad to the game.

So, why not to crate a separe No AA server so that "proud people" can play happily?

What about the keyboard-only players? They have no mouse to effectively aim at a specific person when they're dodging them left and right. So basically excluding them from a fun PvP experience in SK.

I'll just make my argument first.

1. Huge "burden of proof" for the opponents of the current system
Currently, AT is optional. People who want to change the system must feel this optional feature is doing something bad.
It is really hard to show objectively that an optional setting available to all players is bad for gameplay. You must show that someone else's setting can significantly influence your gaming experience in a way you cannot compensate with your own decisions.
This is because unless you are doing everything in your power to fix the problem, the developers should not be held accountable to fix the problem*.

*An extreme analogy is someone choosing to fight Vanaduke with only a proto sword, and then petitions to make Vanaduke easier to kill. Or vice versa, someone choosing to complete the first mission with full 5* gear, and then petitions to make the first mission harder.
There are steps you can take, as a player, to fix these problems, so it shouldn't be the developer's concern.

2. AT is not important relative to the other factors at play in Lockdown.
Out of AT, Latency/hardware, and equipment, AT is the least significant when it comes to Lockdown.
Any veteran lockdown player knows a superior ping can allow a player to become virtually untouchable. A good ping gives a player better reaction times, which is crucial to success in a fast-paced Lockdown match.
Considering UVs, trinkets, bonus sets, and certain weapons are so popular, it is obviously that equipment plays an essential role in Lockdown performance. Wide-swing swords, status weapons, long-range/AOE guns/swords dominate Lockdown. "pro" players are usually the only ones who ever choose to use worse gear over better gear. Even then, when push comes to shove, many of them also take out their "tryhard" loadouts to help out the team.
Then we have AT. It is a targeting service that comes into effect only when the character is standing still. AT does not modify the weapon in any way. However, AT will correct the angle of the weapon attack up to 45 degrees from the direction of the cursor. Other than that, AT does nothing else to the attack animation.

To put things into perspective, consider a flourish swing. It spans an arc of at least 150 degrees. If AT is important to the success of a flourish user, then that user must positioned with respect to the target in a very specific way:
--The user must be standing still (otherwise AT would not kick in)
--The target must be within 45 degrees from the direction the player is aiming (otherwise AT would not kick in)
--The target must be at least 1/sqrt(2) = ~0.71 = 71% the sword length away from the user (otherwise a non AT swing would also hit)
--The above conditions must occur consistently (otherwise the total gain from using AT is less significant than random chance)

If you want to argue about AT using guns and bombs, ask any gunner and bomber and listen to them laugh at you.

3. The argument that AT makes the PvP too easy is silly
Since you don't have control over your opponents, they may choose to use AT when it is not in their best interests. AT can encourage a player to click aimlessly instead of actually developing skills and entering the PvP metagame. As I just showed though, AT doesn't really help much in the ultimate picture. These people will fall consistently to more skilled players (both users and nonusers of AT).
If you are one of these players, unskilled AT users may ruin the metagame for you due to their predictability. However that doesn't restrict your overall room for improvement. Instead of honing your skills for prediction, you can now perfect your execution. Since they are so easy to kill, fight them with a loadout in which you will die in one hit. Alternatively, fight them with a loadout that requires you landing more hits to kill. Even the most skilled player succumbs to chance. You can always push yourself to defy statistics.
Besides, eliminating AT wouldn't change anything. The unskilled will still be unskilled. If you killed them before, you can kill them even more easily now.

4. Creating lobbies for non-AT games is counterproductive
People who use AT aren't just going to stop when there's an option to join games without them. The people who would join non-AT games are people who already don't use AT. These people are playing Lockdown games already, even without the non-AT lobbies. You can find them in Lockdown matches, and they will fight the same way.
Lockdown has a small enough player base. Splitting things up even more will make waiting times even longer.
Unless you can show that creating lobbies will draw in a lot of new non-AT users, lobbies won't fix anything*.

*The only thing it would fix is people's complaints, but my previous three points show why there's nothing legitimate to complain about.
I think it's unreasonable to ask the developers to provide a placebo for a problem that doesn't exist.

5. The real problem with AT (my theory)
Psychology.
People who don't use AT take pride in it (just look at forum posts). They have some subconscious "ideal" of how good they are, and how well they must perform. They are frustrated when reality does not fit that ideal. They blame reality. Unfortunately, blaming oneself is not fun, so blaming the other person is the way to go. The other person is not playing correctly, not me.

Example scenario:
A person sees himself die on the screen when the attacker's swing clearly missed.
What is accurate to say: "Wow, I hate latency", "gg, you're so OP"
What is the pseudo polite thing to say: "lol, nice connection", "You got asi?", "/laugh"
What is usually said: "HACKER", "NOOB", "Turn off your AT"

Even though AT is not an insult, the term is being used as one. Unfortunately the term is associated with an actual game setting, so people think getting rid of the game setting would get rid of the underlying hatred. Well, it won't.

@Achys

good player tired of getting killed by AT user? or bad player?
it seem all good player i know never complain about AT~ not even polaris.
just tell the truth you're more nuub than AT user because you can't handle them~

and about keyboard only... not all people is no life people who spent almost their game time on lockdown and not all people have connection upper than 2 yellow bar.. one of four reason people not play lockdown, four? i give you guys free second reason~

second reason, meeting with berserk guy in other team~
this guy have epic uv and good connection with good experience + no AT
but this guy run skip all caps and just run to enemy base to beat who people there... but when this guy die killed by AT user
this guy now active AT option and go back screwed other team but this guy die again killed by polaris
and now this guy change loadout and spam polaris! boom boom boom
opposite team have no chance to handle this guy and just not click play after battle end or continue and hope berserk guy in my team or i quit~ unbalance team always haunted in every pvp game (not just sk) and yea.. no one want to get beat up alot without chance to revenge and chance to beat some people~ pro players have responsibility for the leaving newbie player and moderate player who just can't stand against it

I like these points, though it's interesting that Feyi would read them for the other side @_@

Correction:

To put things into perspective, consider a flourish swing. It spans an arc of at least 150 degrees. If AT is important to the success of a flourish user, then that user must positioned with respect to the target in a very specific way:
--The user must be standing still (otherwise AT would not kick in)

Any weapon that forces you to stand during the attack will trigger AT, regardless of whether you're 'moving' when you give the attack command. Ex: Walking around then trying to use callahan will still trigger AT because callahan forces you to stand still during the attack. Walking and trying to shoot valiance will not.

Humoring the whole "oh- but killing people in 1v1 with no AT is important because uhhh skill maybe" viewpoint...

The other part I'd add to this is that you need to have been within the 1.4-2 tile range (i'll push it to 2, to correct for discrepancy between where you see yourself and where the server sees you) to actually get hit by a sword attack. I don't care about your 'range optimization' from AT: if you move in a way that makes your opponent think that you're going to be in range when they start their attack but then either stop short of it, you can bait them to miss and directly counter - and this is usable whether they use AT or not.

In fighting games, your melee attacks are pretty much always aimed directly towards the other player (OH NO, AUTO AIM D: D: D:), so you make them miss by being outside their range when they try to attack. That concept is called spacing (or zoning, whatever). In both fighting games and SK, you pull that off either using footwork or projectiles/long-reaching attacks.

If you want to argue about AT using guns and bombs, ask any gunner and bomber and listen to them laugh at you.
B|

@Theirillusion
Np I already did.

@Auto Target
People who use AT aren't just going to stop when there's an option to join games without them. The people who would join non-AT games are people who already don't use AT.

I think you're generalising too much here. I use AT probably 50% of the time in LD but I'd probably prefer to play in non-AT games anyway. Sure, I'd be a lot worse with Acheron but it'd still be more neat if you ask me, due to the simple fact that people would have one less reason to rage.

Still, what would be more important with lobbies would be other rules, such as disabling UVs and trinkets. Wouldn't that be fun? I know I would much rather play that, so that I don't get a pay to win advantage and others don't either (right now, I have ASI H/ASI VH on my Acheron/FF but no trinkets).

EDIT: I see Floerail ninja'd me. Check the link I directed at Illu. It clearly proves that weapons have better reach when aiming spot on.

Yes it does
But my cat has four paws and he walks with every single one of them.

@Theirillusion
Regarding increased range:
--The target must be at least 1/sqrt(2) = ~0.71 = 71% the sword length away from the user (otherwise a non AT swing would also hit)
Derived with simple trigonometry assuming max AT angle of 45 degrees.
Note that the people who can profit from this are those who are already so precise with their timing that they consistently hit the opponent with the tip of their sword. People who can judge distances that well probably won't have aim that is 45 degrees off in the first place.

@Seiran
I don't believe AT activates immediately when you stop to swing. It might have to do with my latency, but there is a significant pause before the target sign shows up. If I slash in the middle of striker dash, AT does not come into play. If I follow up with a second slash, it does.

UPDATE: I just did some tests in the Advanced Training Hall. Interesting results.
Movement (regardless shield up or down) does not affect sword AT. The target appears whenever monster is within range and when you swing, you are turned automatically. However, the forward distance (not angular) in which AT appears is shortened. <--This might have to do with latency, idk.
Ex. When standing still, AT extends up to 2 squares away. When moving towards the target, AT doesn't appear until I'm 1 square away. It also disappears at the same distance when I move away.
The target appears the same way for Gun AT except you don't pivot when doing the attack animation (hence kinda pointless). This is with guns that can shoot while moving.

@Krakob
If I was generalizing too much, how do you know you aren't? You gave one counterexample, namely yourself, to my generalization. That's not much evidence to support that I was being too extreme.

Even though AT is not an insult, the term is being used as one. Unfortunately the term is associated with an actual game setting, so people think getting rid of the game setting would get rid of the underlying hatred. Well, it won't.
^You think people are going to rage less if you remove AT? People raging about AT is expressing a symptom, not a cause of the problem.

Also, this debate is not about lobbies, it's about why AT doesn't need to be fixed. I never said lobbies of any kind is bad. I said lobbies that segregate AT and non-AT is bad.

If I was generalizing too much, how do you know you aren't? You gave one counterexample, namely yourself, to my generalization. That's not much evidence to support that I was being too extreme.
Well, I obviously proved that it's not black and white. I'm sure there are plenty of people with the "I don't like this but as long as it's around I'm using it". Anyway, both of us are just speculating so it doesn't really matter much, does it?

^You think people are going to rage less if you remove AT? People raging about AT is expressing a symptom, not a cause of the problem.
No. You're right in what you say. However, if AT is completely disabled, it will make anyone raging either look stupid raging about a feature that is not available or go worse, in which case that person can be reported and is probably more likely to be punished, which could in the long term cleanse the LD community of some bad eggs.

@The paragraph directed to Seiran:
AT is server side so it shouldn't really matter but I'm not entirely sure. What you say is pretty interesting. Do note, however, that you can't swing in the middle of a dash as you have to end the dash before swinging and you can't move while swinging as using any sword removes all self caused motion. Personally, I've never noticed this phenomena throughout my time on Cradle.

1. Well, of course. I meant that our speculation serves little purpose, not that the actual statistics do.

2. That depends on how much they rage. If they cross certain lines, they can be reported.

All arguments hereafter made are from within my point of view and knowledge, but will be backed up by science (aka Krakob) where possible.
I started out as an AT user, and here I am opposing it now. I have experience with both a steady 4 bar with 27 ping, and less than stellar connection.
In short, I've experienced most scenarios in the time I've been playing Lockdown and these are my conclusions.

1. Huge "burden of proof" for the opponents of the current system

There is indeed an option to turn on AT for everyone, yet there is none to turn off AT for everyone. Equal rights to both parties, aka lobbies.

2. AT is not important relative to the other factors at play in Lockdown.

Some of your facts about AT are off. Here's what's broken about it.

-AT is server side. It will favor the player with the already better ping.
-When you swing a sword you're already standing still. There's no reason to mention it. AT not working while moving is only of importance for guns.
-Swords do not have perfect arcs. Some don't even have an arc, like brandishes. AT aligns you so that the furthest part of the 'arc' aligns with your target.
Although it is theoretically possible to achieve this without AT, getting it a 100% right is virtually impossible. In short: more range.
-The snap when AT connects is instantaneous. It is not when you correct with a mouse/keyboard/controller. In a game where you're talking about milliseconds of timing making the difference that's unacceptable.

I could go into your points about what's important for Lockdown, since I don't fully agree to them but that would lead us too far.

3. The argument that AT makes the PvP too easy is silly.

You choose to correlate AT to unskilled users here. Unskilled users are the less important issue here, AT or not.
A skilled user toggling AT has all of the benefits mentioned above in a 1vs1, and can toggle for team fights.
Case in point: Why should I choose to adapt, or handicap myself to compensate for people choosing for benefits that shouldn't be there?

I'll add the 'training wheels' argument to this section: AT is supposed to help the unskilled/newer players..
Except it doesn't.
You are not learning when you rely on AT. You might be connecting hits, but it's a fake accomplishment.
If you really care about the new players to Lockdown, and I know I do, ask for a place where they can actually train, learn the meta, and gather experience. Not thrown into the arena with a pack of hungry wolves.

4. Creating lobbies for non-AT games is counterproductive.

This would provide a place for the people who already play without AT, to be sure that they're all fighting people, and not computers.
Psychologically that's a huge deal. No more complaining, you lost to someone fighting with the same weapons.
Besides, lobbies aren't only for AT/Non AT reasons. They would allow for custom teams, tournaments, and even a training lobby as mentioned above.
If you're talking about attracting new people those are the selling points of lobbies.

Lobbies wouldn't replace current Lockdown, they're an addition. When the lobbies don't get filled, we can all go back to current RLD.

5. The real problem with AT (my theory)

Most of the people having a problem with it are veteran players. You'll rarely see a new players go 'AT kill, lol nub, uninstall pls'.
The thing with that is we know what we were beaten by when we die, and when the sole reason for that is AT that's frustrating.
So yeah, I will give you this point, it's psychological thing, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Those are my answers to your arguments.
I hope you do forgive me for not being as accurate in terms of wording things, and general writing. English isn't my first language.
It's been a long day, tomorrow I'll present my own arguments.

1.
I think your logic is flawed here. Something optional has no "other side". Everyone can turn off AT if they want. Everyone can also turn on AT if they want. You're saying the game should force people to turn of AT sometimes and force people to turn on AT other times. That restricts player freedom.
It's the same reason why Lockdown doesn't force everyone to use flourish, even though that seems to be the most effective sword.

2.
I think you didn't read the part where Iacknowledged that AT increases range and after some tests, concluded it does have immediate effect on swordsman.
That's not the point though. The point is that the extra range granted by AT does not add much unless the person already have good "other factors".

"AT is server side. It will favor the player with the already better ping."
Exactly. AT is not what's OP. AT isn't very helpful unless you have the better ping. If you remove the better ping, AT hardly helps at all. Distances are hard to judge and you can't time your swings well to take advantage of the extra range from AT.

I concede that brandish users gain a lot more from using AT, but even then, a good connection is required to abuse it. You can have have a ASI max Archeron and have AT on, but someone with better ping can interrupt you before you can pull off the second swing in the combo. Again, this just demonstrates that equipment and latency is more important than AT. In order for AT to be remotely overpowered, you need the right equipment and a good connection.
Don't you see how AT is not the real problem? All it does is augment the bigger problems that already exist.

3.
No more complaining, you lost to someone fighting with the same weapons.
^I don't see how removing AT automatically make everyone fight with the same weapons.

Your logic is:
People complain about AT --> We make games without AT
So what about the people who complain about "Noobs"? Do we make need to make lobbies where only "pros" can play?
What about people who complain about "spam"? Do we need to make lobbies where people are prevented from "spamming"?

As I told Krakob, I have no problems with lobbies. What I don't understand is why AT should matter enough to warrant segregation.
Regular lockdown allows someone to play without AT and with AT. Why would they want to play in non-AT mode if they can just turn off their own AT?

4.
"Most of the people having a problem with it are veteran players. You'll rarely see a new players go 'AT kill, lol nub, uninstall pls'.
The thing with that is we know what we were beaten by when we die, and when the sole reason for that is AT that's frustrating."

^Exactly my point. Those veteran players think they're "skilled" and shouldn't have to lose to someone "unskilled" using AT. Arrogant much? If you're so skilled, why can't you beat someone DESPITE the fact that they have AT turned on?
Skill should be measured by how well you can compete, not how much help someone else needs to compete with you.
I don't want to be rude, but some of you are too thick-headed to understand that basic concept. There's no such thing as a "even playing field" in Lockdown. What matters is how well you, as an individual, can adapt to challenges.

Think about an auction house example:
You and someone else are fighting over a rare accessory. Current bid price 400k, buyout price is 900k.
You bid 500k. They buy it for 900k.
Do you call them an unskilled bidder? Do you petition to remove the buyout option in the AH? Just because you wanted to bid for it doesn't mean they have to bid with you. You're just butthurt because you lost.

Thought Theirillusion was talking to me

"Not what feyi said. He said most of those who are oppose to AT happen to be veteran players, not all veteran players are oppose to AT. Huge difference."

i don't say all veteran.. look at my post --a

I think I'll go into what is and isn't important to be good at Lockdown today, as that is the point where you base most of your arguments around.
I don't want to go into the specifics just yet, but both Auto-Target and Floerail seem to agree to some common misconceptions.

'connection > experience > luck > macro > unique variant (especially asi) > AT' as Floerail put it isn't even close to the truth.

Expect a post detailing all this and how it relates to AT in the next +/- 12 hours.

@Floerail: Does it ever occur to you that if you don't invest the same time and effort into getting good as someone else did,
you maybe don't deserve to be as good? I've you've ever been out there in the real world that's how it pretty much works.

@Krakob: if you are reading this, are the numbers/percentages for UVs on the wiki up to date/accurate to your knowledge?
I think I'm gonna drop some science bombs.