Spiral Knights - Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.

Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.

88 replies [Last post]

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 05:08

Quotefanboy

Lets see here.

Heavy swords Pros and Cons

Pros

Good knockback and range on the 2nd hit
Great damage on 1st strike
Stronger damaging charge attacks. On a single number, that is.

Cons

Lowest DPS in the game, especially for a HEAVY sword.

Slowest attack speed, because 3 strike weapons finish their combo nearly the same time you recover from your second (If you're using the Faust, which is the fastest heavy sword).

Slowest recovery time to guard on both strikes.

Strong punishment for small mistakes.

Only the Divine Avenger has a respectable charge attack, whilst the others are either not good enough (Triglav and Sudaruska) or not worth it (Gran Faust).

Can't think of much more here, but I think those are some good enough points.
As you can clearly see the Pros highly are outweighed by the cons, and here's some proof with the magic of numbers.

Because the Gran faust and the Avenger do the same damage, to their respectable element, I saw how much my Acheron did compared to his Gran Faust.
I would assume this test would be the same for the Divine avenger to another sword from the brandish line which is elemental, or perhaps comparing a Triglav or the Sudaruska to the Leviathan blade, due to elemental / normal damage properties respectively.

Anyway, here's our tests. This was all based on neutral damage, and both of our damages increased by medium, done on scuttle bots in tier 3.

Gran Faust:
Strike 1: 213
Strike 2: 281
Total damaging Combo: 494

Acheron
Strike 1:181
Strike 2:181
Strike 3:240
Total damaging Combo: 602

As you can clearly see, the Acheron does a whopping 108 more damage with its full combo.

Now I started to do some different stuff.

How does Very high attack speed effect these weapons?

Acheron
Acheron attack speed combo start to finish: 2.14
Acheron guard ability on first strike: 0.5
Acheron attack speed with ASI very high start to finish: 1.73
Acheron guard ability on first strike with ASI VH: 0.31

Faust (Which is essentially 2x faster then every heavy sword in game)
Faust attack speed combo start to finish: 2.25
Faust guard ability on first strike: 0.72
Faust attack speed with ASI very high start to finish: 1.90
Faust guard ability on first strike with ASI VH: 0.55

As we can clearly see the Acheron is still at an advantage, a large one mind you, to the FASTEST heavy sword in the game. It's speed is, literally, double then the other heavy swords by far.

Charge attacks
Acheron Initial strike: 392
Acheron explosion damage: 86

Gran Faust Initial Damage: 434
Gran Faust sword-bullet damage: 96

Now, you can argue, that the Gran Faust can curse and the like but take this into consideration. This is comparing charges to all heavy swords:

The Acheron's charge is considerably faster then the Gran Faust's
The Branish line's charge can be guarded out of much faster then the sealed sword line
The Leviathan blade's charge can knockback harder then the Sudaruska and Triglav, and it can grind up to 3 hits if done correctly for massive damage. Granted, it can't stun decently or have a 1 in a million chance to freeze, but it kills things so that's nice.
The Acheron's damage is slightly weaker, but without any "curse yourself 50-70% of the time" drawbacks.
Anything from the brandish line has a GOOD chance to inflict a STRONG element with up to THREE hits, whilst the Gran Faust is only fair, with a chance to curse yourself, and the Triglav is only slight, for a single hit. The Sudaruska has a decent chance for stun, but killing a monster with the leviathan blade is much more useful then stunning it.

Plus, now lets look at the swords that inflict an element:

Gran Faust:

Can curse self. Often. Even with max curse resist.
Does minimal damage for a double edged sword
Charge time is ridiculous.
Within its combo, it only has 1 hit that can curse. That's its second hit.
The curse rate on monsters is decent, at best.

Triglav

Only a slight chance on its 2nd strike
Charge attack only has 1 hit

Sudaruska

Only its charge can inflict its stun, with a rate that's lower then those of many other weapons
Was nerfed, and lost its "rocks" in its charge.

Looking at all of this it's clear to see that heavy swords really are getting the short end of the stick. Weapons of their caliber are destroying it, both in combo damage and in charge attacks. They aren't as effected by attack speed increases, and the ones with elements can barely inflict the element they were born to inflict, whilst other weapons of different lines have an actual GOOD chance to inflict it.
I'm sorry but if a Glacius can have a good chance, with up to 3 hits, why can't the Triglav?
If the Grand Faust has such a high rate to curse you, why can't it have a good rate to inflict others instead of only fair?
Why should something that is considered heavy and powerful, have its traits of powerful and punishing if done wrong, not get the power it rightfully deserves?

I will say, yes, I'm asking for heavy swords to get a buff. All of them, except for maybe the charge of the divine avenger, but the others should definitely gain some more power to them. They need something more, regardless what all you Lockdown children out there cry about. They need more power. They need to be better.

If they aren't going to be improved, all I ask of you is to not make them any worse then they are.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 05:22

Grenze

MyEntireFortune.avi

Take all of my money damn you, also in before "you have no idea what your talking about Heavy Swords are OP we should nerf them cause I said so"

Also with logic in mind a Rapier can bust down a wall faster and stronger then a sledgehammer.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 06:21

Khamsin

What exactly are you trying

What exactly are you trying to say? That heavy swords aren't good? Have you run FSC? That instance is all about doing area damage and being able to push enemies away. Divine Avenger is probably the 2nd best item in the game (best probably goes to polaris). Single target DPS is only relevant for killing healers and for Jelly King. Anything else, a heavy sword works just fine while providing area damage and push back that single target swords don't.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 14:10

Quotefanboy

Divine Avenger. Divine Avenger. Divine Avenger.

You're mentioning the ONLY heavy sword with a USEFUL charge here.

Yes, I am saying that heavy swords aren't AS good as other weapons of their caliber.
Granted, that second hit has really good AoE, but that doesn't excuse its lack of damage being that high.
Yes, the Divine Avenger has such a useful charge attack, that's already overpowered as it is, I'm not asking for THAT heavy sword to be buffed.

I understand that, sure, on that second swing, if you use it right, that second swing can hit a great amount of enemies, but if even 1 thing goes wrong say goodbye to all those health bars you had. If one thing goes wrong with me, I can guard, you can't.

My main argument is that the damage output I can do is SO much higher, and not to mention my punishment for mistakes is much smaller due to my guarding space within combos. Perhaps heavy swords should get, at the maximum, a 25% power increase in power towards their combos.

Listen, I'm not trying to say heavy swords are BAD. My friend has the Divine Avenger, the Gran Faust, and the Triglav. That's 3 of the 4 heavy swords, and he helped me get this information. I've seen how low the freeze rate the Triglav is, and I've seen how bad the self curse rate and the curse infliction rate is on the Gran Faust. I've seen how overpowered the Divine Avenger charge is. The only thing I haven't seen is Sudaruska, and I'm pretty sure that's a Triglav with a charge attack that has a better stun rate, if not just more power.

If you can come up to me and truly say, with a straight face without lying to yourself, that heavy swords doing less damage then a normal sword isn't kind of silly, the Triglav's freeze rate is pathetic, the Sudaruska's nerf was not unnecessary, and the Gran Faust is not only worse then the other sword you can get from the sealed sword but its power is too low for its self curse rate being so high...well then I don't know what to say to you.

I'm not asking for the heavy swords to be "MASTER RACE OH YEAH 800 DAMAGE FIRST SWING," but more so I'm asking just bump up the damage enough to where its combo will be near equal. Either that, or make it to where the charges on the other weapons are worth it. (As stated, I'm unsure how "good" the Sudaruska's charge is due to the lack of using one, but I'm pretty sure it's not nearly better then something the Levi blade can do.)

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 14:14

Khamsin

Divine Avenger is probably

Divine Avenger is probably the most commonly used sword in the game, and the charge up isn't used all that often (more than other heavy swords, but not every weapon is meant to be charged - see cutter series). The reason why DA is so popular is because pushing an enemy back with a hit >>> doing more damage for almost every scenario in the game aside from Jelly King and killing healers.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 14:40

Quotefanboy

Once again...

I don't wish to be rude, but when I see any Divine Avenger user take how his divine avenger I see charge attacks. Only charge attacks as far as the eye can see. It's essentially, at the bare minimum, 70% of the time they're using their charge. It's increased in percentage of how much they use it depending on how high their CTR is.

Not to mention, once again, you're talking about the divine avenger. I'm not asking for that weapon to be increased. That weapon is fine the way it is. That weapons charge is already overpowered, and it doesn't need anything more to it.

The Divine Avenger isn't the only heavy sword alive, you know. There's 3 others, and those are my focus points.

Not to mention, look at what you typed.
"...but not every weapon is meant to be charged - see cutter series"
If you can say that a weapon, that can hit 5star mind you, was MEANT to have a bad charge then...I'm sorry. I would actually be speechless.
That would show, to me, that you accept the fact that weapons like that were meant to be bad, and it shouldn't be changed. That's kind of sad.
Note: I'm not saying the Cutter is bad, only its charge.

The cutter is another thing I think needs a buff, but only in its charge. Nothing big, or special, or fancy but enough to where it's as useful as it should be.

Yet that's a topic not for this thread, but more-so for Hova's thread that can be found in here.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 15:16

Grenze

So far it's the Divine

So far it's the Divine Avenger is great and in Firestorm Citadel, as if Fire Storm Citadel will be the only Tier 3 Boss, as if the Divine Avenger is the Only heavy sword, as if every popular weapon means weapons like it but clearly worse don't need a buff, as if Jelly King is the only Tier 2 boss. As if other weapons have 0 push back at all.

Lets see if there will ever be a Tier 3 boss that has gremlins, or high concentrations of beasts there goes the usefulness of ONE of the 4 heavy swords in the game aka the Divine Avenger. Let's consider the Roamulus Twins shall we? They are a Tier 2 boss that's construct correct? Means oh man the Divine Avenger is great then right? Well since I swing so slow the person with a elemental brandish line or fang of vog can damage them more in their frames of vulnerability faster then I can, which makes that weapon better then mine for now 2 or the 4 bosses CURRENTLY as in guess what kiddos that means there will be more.

This thread does not say in clear bold text that the Divine Avenger needs a buff, the other 3 heavy swords do.
Just like not the Leviathan Blade needs a buff but some say the Cold Iron Vanquisher does at times.
Just like not the Dread Venom Striker needs a clear buff but the Wild Hunting Blade needs a buff.

Because one weapon is good doesn't mean all of them are. And I use heavy swords I'm the one with 3 out of 4 of them and they are great and I felt like I was doing more then everyone, turns out I was dead wrong. As great as the knock back is what's the point if a faster sword is flying around killing everything 1 at a time better then the heavy sword slowly trying to hit a crowd.

If heavy swords only selling point is push back and one heavy sword has a great charge what about the other 3? I mean let's consider 3 strike swords. Brandish line, charges decently fast and makes explosions with status effect, Leviathan Blade and Cold Iron Vanquisher 360 spin attack, Levi has pushback and Cold Iron can grind damage, Flourish and Barble Thorn, Faster charge with swings or a wave of pierce bullets from the Thorn Blade.

Now the other 3 heavy swords, Triglav and Sadurska both take not so long to charge but it's on hit that you have to leave yourself open for, and the Gran Faust sure it can curse but like 5 seconds to charge for one swing and a sword bullet that disappears on anything that could be considered a wall even some enemies are little walls and it stops on them forever.

I'm sorry to say when you get a faster thing you are supposed to give up power. It's not supposed to be mine is faster and stronger.
When you have a Ferrari and a Bulldozer smash into a house the Ferrari will get there first and wreck a part of the house but when that Bulldozer gets there, there is no house.
When you have a fire axe and a short sword, I'm sorry but the fire axe is gonna cut down a tree or bust down a door way easier then a short sword.

Basically my point is that a sledgehammer is supposed to seem POWERFUL compared to a toothpick. For a sword that makes me wide open and easy to get hit if I mess up once it's pretty not powerful.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 15:50

Nekosniper

"what's the point if a faster

"what's the point if a faster sword is flying around killing everything 1 at a time better then the heavy sword slowly trying to hit a crowd."

Sometimes...you find yourself in situations where you don't have the luxury of fighting them one at a time. ;)

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 15:58

Grenze

And sometimes there isn't

And sometimes there isn't groups of in sync attacking enemies, so go ahead fly into a crowd of out of sync enemies with a heavy sword, tell me how that works, oh and by the way did you take damage yeah me too. Meanwhile in the 3 strike sword dome DURR HURR CHARGE ATTACK BYE CROWD.

For a crowd sweeper it's still ridiculously situational, point being, doesn't matter what the enemies are doing towards people with 3 strikes cause those enemies are dead and while I accidentally missed by one pixel I lose half my health and no I'm exaggerating, it's pretty much one pixel. For the utility of what heavy swords have everyone else can do better.

Summary of my point.

Heavy Sword really good for crowds.
3 Strike Swords really good for single Target and can be really great for crowds.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 15:56

Quotefanboy

Luxury of not fighting one at a time.

Fighting one at a time makes it slower for me when I'm using my 3 strike sword. I like when they group up so i can slash-guard cancel 2-3 monsters at a time, and watching my charge hit all of them and obliterate them with relative ease.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:01

#10

Nekosniper

I use Divine Avenger for FSC.

I use Divine Avenger for FSC. No, I rarely take damage just from swording with my DA. In fact, it's the sword I take the least damage with.

I have auto-target off. It's all about the fine-tuning of the swing, adjusting it perfectly to hit the most zombies as possible and even delaying the swing to catch the lunger from the back of the crowd.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:05

#11

Grenze

Oh man that Divine Avenger

Oh man that Divine Avenger all over again and what's that? In Firestorm Citadel you say? I guess that's the only level with bosses in this game forever and there will be no new ones and there are no other heavy swords apparently. Don't get me wrong I'm not bad with Heavy Swords so I don't need pointers, I know how to make my Heavy Sword at least decent at best. I do not hear from others that something other then the Divine Avenger is great in Fire Storm Citadel. Why don't I hear alot about the other Heavy swords cause they aren't as good. But if you just derp into a crowd of enemies and make ONE mistake that can cost you, it's about heavy punishment for not high reward.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:12

#12

Nekosniper

Admittedly, I've not much to

Admittedly, I've not much to say about the other swords as I've never used the Troika line (will at least get a Khorovod someday though), but I had to disagree with you on that one point.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:19

#13

Grenze

Of course you do it's your

Of course you do it's your opinion but there are people saying the Heavy Swords need to be nerfed because of one of them is good the Divine Avenger.
Why is the Divine Avenger the only good one then? And thus, if the Divine Avenger is good the other ones MUST BE GOOD RIGHT? I mean the Dread Venom is great so the Wild Hunting Blade must be 100% equal. The Leviathan Blade is used alot so the Cold Iron Vanquisher must be just as all powerful. Also so your telling me you never made 1 mistake with a heavy sword and wished you didn't take that one extra swing? Cause if so then that still isn't reliable because guess what not everyone can do that. It's supposed to be trade able between the other swords in usefulness and any person should be able to pick up each weapon and be good enough with it to not die that's what game testing is for so if you are saying cause you don't die ALL heavy swords shouldn't be buff because the DIVINE AVENGER is great then fine, no weapon deserves any buffs ever cause there is a better one and everyone is really good with it.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:22

#14

Nekosniper

Now you're putting words in

Now you're putting words in my mouth. :x

I have blundered face-first into a zombie's claws with my DA. It happens a lot less than it does with my fast swords though, as I tend to play more calmly with heavy swords.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:24

#15

Renpartycat

@NekoSniper

Wait, are you implying that you've only used the Divine Avenger, out of all heavy swords?

If that's true, then your argument here is pretty invalid. You HAVE to have used different types of heavy swords to understand what Quote and Grenze are getting at. Personally, I used a heavy hatchet back when I was a noob, and I've tried a troika at some point. I've also used the Avenger and Faust.

As far as I can see, Heavy swords give too much of a risk for it's reward. Sure, you can hit multiple enemies with heavy swords and do strong damage, but their DPS and charge attacks are inferior to other swords like Quote said. Mind you, it doesn't matter where you use any weapon and where it's good at. So please don't bring up the "lol it's good at vanaduke therefore i'm right xD" argument.

In all honesty, heavy swords could use a small buff to make them worth using. Now when I say "Heavy swords could use a small buff" I'm not talking about the Divine Avenger because that sword is good enough. I'm talking about the other heavy swords out there. And let's not forget that in the near future, there will be more weapons including new heavy swords.

In a nutshell, I believe that heavy swords should have better recovery time and better charge attacks. THAT would make em worthwhile. Sure, they're supposed to be "Heavy" but what's the use carrying a wooden log if you can do more damage with a simple blade? Get my point?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:25

#16

Grenze

Well see I got good with

Well see I got good with Heavy Sword myself so you know I can do really damn well with a Heavy sword compared to a 3 strike cause I'm not used to 3 strikes, but my friend Quote here is and he takes way less damage I do and we kill about equal amount of enemies, it's just for him shielding is easier and that damage output over Heavy swords allows him to kill as much as me.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:32

#17

Renpartycat

@Grenze

Yeah I see what you mean. Basically you're saying that swords are nice and all, whether they're heavy or light, but it's your skill that's what comes into play.

While it is true that if you have a lot of skill you can be good with any of your weapons, sometimes your weapon needs to cooperate with you. Get what I'm saying? If your blade is too hard to use or is very risky, you could be skilled enough to solo Vanaduke with a proto sword but still make one mistake.

Skill or no skill I still want heavy swords to have a slight recovery time buff and better charge attacks. Cept for the Divine Avenger cause that thing's already boss.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:55

#18

Nekosniper

Blarg.

You're missing my point here. I'm not talking about the numbers that pop up above enemies' heads. I was saying that I get hit less with my DA than I do with my other swords. All heavy swords have the same regular attack, so my point here is valid.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 17:19

#19

Grenze

My friend gets hit less with

My friend gets hit less with his 3 strikes then I do with my Heavy Swords cause he's better with his swords then mine and as they are more rewarding. I'm better then him at Heavy Swords and he's better then me at Lighter swords but in the end his are more rewarding.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 17:22

#20

The-Big-Wallet

totally agree with you

i had a kamarin (back when i was 3*) as a secondary weapon, and almost never used it, cuz everytime i used it, i find myself loosing lots of health when i made a "little mistake" as you say (like not reaching the enemy with my 2nd swing and getting hit), and you had to be really precise with those charge attacks cuz if you miss you WILL get hit.

i think that those 3 heavy swords (excluding DA) should have a buff in their Charged attacks, or maybe boost their damage a little as you said.

actually there's not much use given to their charged attacks because of the risks that they imply when you use them...

the troika line's charged attacks have a long reach, but they don't have that much of a wide area of effect and that makes you vulnerable to attacks (most of all when you have to recover from the strike).

gran faust's charge time is too long and it's hard to hold the charge for 5 seconds while you are being attacked by a pack of wolvers rushing towards you or when you are trying to avoid lots of bullets from those gunpuppies from tier 3, and even if you succes and strike with your charged attack there's a fair chance that you get the curse status that leaves you no choice but to run and try blocking monsters attacks until the effect fades... (its 43 seconds with no resist status( and if you want to get curse resisting items you'll have to sacrifice your armor's bonuses and stats, cause the only armors i know that have curse resist are valkyrie: shadow & normal defense... or silvermail: shadow & piercing and divine veil: shadow & elemental. and this is really dumb cause anyone wants to kill fiends or undead with a shadow inflicting weapon so there's almost no use to it! ))

and here's a topic speaking about GF charged attack for those who want more info about it.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/es/node/25599

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 21:39

#21

Plaguerider

Some of you are fools arguing

Some of you are fools arguing an invalid point. We don't care how well you do with your Divine Avenvger. Sure it's great, it's popular, it's overused because the only 3Tier Boss stage happens to be entirely weak to elemental, but we do not care about that. We want to see a point in the game where our other Heavy Swords will prove useful to us. We don't all plan on using a gosh darn Divine Avenger, SO STOP BRINGING IT UP! The reason you don't get hit while using that thing is because all it takes is a charge, and every enemy is now on the other side of the room. It is an acceptionally powerful weapon, but we want the other Heavy Swords to receive a buff. i honestly do not care how well you can manage with just a Divine avenger simple swing. Duh. It's obvious you can, have you seen the damage output? My Triglav doesn't compare. BUT THAT IS THE POINT!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 22:26

#22

Khamsin

Gremlins and beasts don't

Gremlins and beasts don't swarm, therefore DA is better than normal damage heavy swords because it does the same or more damage in any scenario where you would want to use it. That is why DA is better. Not for some charge up that is used at the beginning of fights or between waves.

And yes, I think some weapons were meant to have better charges than others. Compare FoV to Levi, two weapons with the same sword of attack pattern and charge up, only FoV charge does several times more damage but with reduced damage on normal hits. These weapons were designed with certain playstyles in mind. If you want to use charge ups, you should stick to weapons suited for charge ups. There's a reason why faust/GF can curse without requiring the use of the charge up.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 22:46

#23

Plaguerider

LOLOLOL

GREMLIN AND BEASTS DON'T SWARM? Okay. Go to tier 3 and then tell me after you've hit a deconstruction zone and any wolver level. You good sir are horribly mistaken.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:44

#24

Grenze

Hey Fowl, guess what he said

Hey Fowl, guess what he said again.

Let me say this as quietly as possible.

DIVINE AVENGER DIVINE AVENGER DIVINE AVENGER DIVINE AVENGER.

It's apparently the only Heavy Sword ever.

Also so the Gran Faust has no reason to charge huh, then remove it's charge, don't give it the ability to charge ever BUT OH GUESS WHAT THAT MAKES THE DIVINE AVENGER 100 TIMES BETTER.

If a weapon was never meant to be charged they wouldn't give the option to do it.

Also the Gran Faust can curse on one of it's 2 swings, only one and that's the last one. Same with the Triglav. Every other weapon and can inflict status on any random hit.

But yeah set and match Heavy Sword users, cause the Divine Avenger is good the other weapons must never be good.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:49

#25

Plaguerider

I'm not quite sure if you're

I'm not quite sure if you're mocking me or trying to support me here... Your choice of vocabulary is very vague...

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:57

#26

Grenze

I'm with you on this, you

I'm with you on this, you said people are only arguing the Divine Avenger is good so the other Heavy Swords don't deserve a buff.

The true argument is Triglav, Saduruska and Gran Faust are not good. But since the Divine Avenger is good they must be amazing right? Cause the Divine Avenger is good of course. Not the other 3, but go Divine Avenger.

I want my Gran Faust and Triglav to feel useful but since the Divine Avenger is good they can't get a buff is everyone argument because balancing weapons is bad.

I will quote you at why I said what I did.

"We don't all plan on using a gosh darn Divine Avenger, SO STOP BRINGING IT UP!"

Meaning I'm equally if not more irritated that people can't say any other Heavy Sword besides Divine Avenger.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:56

#27

Plaguerider

You don't seem to understand.

You don't seem to understand. If Divine Avenger continues to be the most commonly used, and imo, overpowered sword in the game, then what is the point of working to collect and use the other ones? THERE IS NONE! Everyone just needs to walk into Haven and be handed a Divine Avenger I guess, because it's the only sword worth using? I mean seriously, it is that easy to see. Buff the other heavy swords. Simple. If its jst damage or a better charge effect, idc. But I am tired of seeing how Divine Avenger is the only plausible weapon in this game.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:58

#28

Plaguerider

Ahh, thankyou sorry. I will

Ahh, thankyou sorry. I will admit I just brought IT up again, but to make a really good point.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 23:59

#29

Grenze

That's why I'm pissed off,

That's why I'm pissed off, cause apparently the Divine Avenger is so good that the other 3 heavy swords have no purpose. And people want them to have purpose like you me and anyone else who says they need a buff but then people use the Divine Avenger as an argument. I see the damn point cause I helped with these numbers in the first place. I have 3 of the 4 Heavy swords and I'm planning on getting the last one.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 00:40

#30

Quotefanboy

I'm actually baffled.

I'm really, truly, baffled.

Re-reading over this thread it seems that only the Divine Avenger was stated. My expression is actually speechless that, after 29 posts, that any argument against this had the Divine Avenger as a main backbone towards the argument.

...Really? Really guys?
Lets just talk about the other three...please.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 01:12

#31

Paweu

I don't get it, heavy swords

I don't get it, heavy swords are defensive-mode swords, so why are you comparing their dps with single-target swords? They aren't supposed to be on pair in the damage with single target swords. On arenas, as long as there is no enemies with ranged attacks you can stay in a corner and just swing your sword, try that with a single-target sword. If you want a damage buff, then i want a range nerf.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 03:13

#32

Quotefanboy

Well.

I do admit that they are defensive swords, and I can see what you mean as to my "the damage on something that can hit 1-2 monsters should be higher then a heavy sword, which can double swing a good amount away"

Yet I still think the Triglav, Sudaruska, and the Gran Faust still need an improvement.

I know plenty of 3 strike weapons, single target dps, which can do the same job better with their charge. By same job better, I'm referring to knock-backing everything and doing more damage in the process, with a less risk factor.
Mind you, I'm not asking for the damage on heavy swords to be buffed to hell and back, but I'm asking for 2 things.

A.) If we were testing this on the elevator I did this test on for the Heavy Sword for it to do 56-66 more damage, just so the damage isn't THAT far off. Which, by the way, means the first swing would get about a 23 more damage increase, and the last swing about a 33-43 more damage. It'd be an improvement, but not game breaking.
B.) For their charges to be useful (Not Divine Avenger).

Also, thank you for bringing up an argument that isn't "What are you talking about? Divine Avenger man."

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 15:35

#33

Coldtart

Looking at the damage numbers

Looking at the damage numbers never tells the complete story. The wide swing and knockback that both hits of a heavy sword have are worth a whole lot more than 100 extra damage in a combo.

I use a GF as one of my main weapons and there's no way Acheron can compare to it. The charge in particular, which everyone usually marks the GF down for, is really quite amazing. It may be slow, but the only times you'll need it are times when you'll also be kiting, giving you all the time in the world to charge. The execution time is also a lot slower than Acheron's charge but it has a gigantic hitbox to make up for it. The projectile it fires hits multiple times and always travels its maximum distance, unlike the Acheron's charge explosions. And of course there is the curse. Nothing can really compete with the ability to curse half the enemies you point this thing at, not even the DA charge's triple surfboard ride to hell. The long charge time and self curse may look nasty on paper, but when you use GF's charge attack, you'll know why they're there.

Also on the subject of the Suda/Triglav. Whether they're good or not is secondary to how much they'll be used. You don't bring a sword that's decent against everything when you can bring one that's right for the task at hand.

-1. Heavy swords rock.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 16:22

#34

Grenze

"Also on the subject of the

"Also on the subject of the Suda/Triglav. Whether they're good or not is secondary to how much they'll be used. You don't bring a sword that's decent against everything when you can bring one that's right for the task at hand."

Then delete them from the game. If they were never meant to be used delete them. And are you really complaining about a small buff for heavy swords if you like heavy swords then fine, I don't see them out weighing everyone else except in Arenas, Danger Rooms and Firestorm Citadel.

Also sorry the Gran Faust is fun and all and I love mine but compared to the overpowered death monster I have called a Divine Avenger it doesn't compare in charges and it's of the same line.

But no of course not, Heavy Swords deserve no small buff, cause there are people who will always say Divine Avenger and people who will say I'm great with it why do I need to have a easier time? I mean if I'm good with something why would a small buff help me? What do you mean other people, screw them it's all about me.

Also Gran Faust, if a enemy is too small, the enemy counts as a wall so it collides with him and stops when using the sword bullet, aka Royal Jellys, the thing the Gran Faust is supposed to be great for which is crowds of Jellies and Gremlins and there go the Jellies cause of a glitch. Also the sword bullets collide with walls behind you so can't charge in a corner and hope to not die. Also cursed Trees don't take damage. I'm sorry there are to many downfalls to the Gran Faust, it's charge takes for ever, it's curse rate on enemies is mediocre and getting cursed for 30 seconds even with Curse max and Curse high stacked between armors is not good. Heavy swords are good but not better and you still didn't prove that a little buff would be nice cause you didn't say all of them you said the Sealed Sword line. You also only said why they have use, I can say anything has a use doesn't make it fantastic.

So I'll Change your last part.

-1. Sealed Sword lines rock.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 18:53

#35

Quotefanboy

Gran faust...

Well sure, with what you had in mind, the Gran faust seems like overall great weapon, but this is what you forgot to mention.

Gran Faust is elementally good against 2 things:
Gremlins- Which I've seen my friend throw his sword at gremlins, and 80% of them dodged the blade.
Jellies- Which they're only scary in large numbers, and most of the time if they are doing that it's either in king jelly, which royal jellies destroy your sword beam upon contact, or in a danger zone. Which it'll be good in a danger zone, I'm not gonna say it's not.

When you say it looks bad on paper, I could agree with that, but I've seen the gran faust in action.
If you have no curse resistance and you swing that weapon's charge, 43 seconds and 3/4 weapons cursed.

That's nearly a minute of only being able to use 1 weapon, even if you have 4, and to make the sword useful you need to hunt and search for either curse resisting armor, or curse resisting UV's. Not to mention, when I have max curse, you still get cursed for like 25-30 seconds. Granted, it's only 1 weapon, but every time my friend is cursed, 100% so far that I've seen, has his health potion cursed. Which means he's basically in a state of poison because of his curse.

Plus I wish the curse rate was half the monsters you hit, if it was I wouldn't bitching about it, but whenever my friend hits the entire crowd with his Gran Faust I see 1, maybe 3 monsters get cursed. Not to mention he cursed himself upon the 2nd, maybe 3rd, swing.

"The projectile it fires hits multiple times and always travels its maximum distance, unlike the Acheron's charge explosions."
So your sword 100% of the time hits 3 times, and my sword only does it 66% of the time with no drawback. Not to mention the AOE on my initial swing is nearly the same, maybe a little smaller, and I do 392 damage, while he does 434. It's a shame I can do my charge attack nearly twice before he does his once.

You see, the main thing is, I'm comparing the Gran Faust to the ONLY other double edged blade in this game. That double edged blade is the Fang of Vog, which to what I've been told is so powerful its charge can 1 shot a Trojan with a good chance to cause fire. Now, I'm not asking for the Gran Faust to do THAT much damage, but I mean it seems rather meek compared to the only other doubled edged sword don't you think?

At the bare minimum make the Gran Faust, at least, have a good chance to inflict curse. At least. Is that too much to ask? Would that really break your game?

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 19:00

#36

Khamsin

Gremlins and beasts don't

I copied my post and reposted it, because it is the truth. Accept it.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 19:08

#37

Grenze

So because Divine Avenger is

So because Divine Avenger is better, the other ones can't be. Then I will pay money to delete them because they are useless, I will pay hard earned money to get rid of them because the Divine Avenger puts them to shame.

So the arguments are either Divine Avenger is best so nothing else can be better or I'm good with it and it doesn't need a buff because I am personally good with it.

Screw logic, logic is for morons.

If this is truth then left is square.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 19:17

#38

Grenze

Pros and Cons between Divine Avenger and Gran Faust.

Divine Aveneger.

Pros:
Faster Charge.
Bigger Area of Effect on charge.
Constructs and Undead Swarm more.
High Damage with charge even when against Beasts and Gremlins.
All around good with no setbacks.

Con:
Slow, it's a Heavy Sword.

Gran Faust.
Pros:
Can curse enemies on Charge and Second swing.
Does Shadow Damage.
Faster then then Divine Avenger slightly.

Cons:
Charge is twice as long.
Can curse you.
Smaller area of effect.
Apparently Beasts and Gremlins ABSOLUTELY NEVER EVER IN ETERNITY SWARM EVER EVEN IF I SAW IT.
When cursed with no curse resist 43 seconds of 3 weapons are useless if you have 4.
Must get Curse resist Armor to use charge and it still can screw you over.
Also a Heavy Sword so not faster then 3 strikes.

But no, Divine Avenger is great why use the Gran Faust it just needs to rot and doesn't need a buff just like the Triglav and the Saduruska, because why use these when there is a clear better one.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 19:47

#39

Khamsin

I don't get what you're

I don't get what you're arguing. GF and other normal heavy swords don't need a buff, if 000 really wants players to use them, they'll create more situations where they are useful. If Gremlins and Beasts did swarm, then you would have a reason to want to use GF or normal heavy swords. Clearly 000 is content with the current situation.

If gremlins and beasts swarmed in the main end-game content run, you would see other heavy swords used. But there isn't anything that you need to use a heavy sword on that DA doesn't already do better against. It isn't that the other swords suck, it is just weakness of DA isn't very common. It is sort of like how pierce is uncommon in the end-game, so there are tons of vogs using CoA for protection against most of the damage types thrown their way. I don't see you raging against vog simply because it is strong against the current end-game.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 20:01

#40

Grenze

I don't care about "end

I don't care about "end game", it's one part of the game. It's not the secret final boss of Spiral Knights, there is this thing called arenas, other levels, Danger Rooms, other bosses besides Vanaduke who may I remind is not the secret final boss of this game. I want the other 3 Heavy Swords to be useful in other situation besides nothing and using Vanaduke as the only argument is redundant. This isn't saying other things are over powered this is saying Heavy Swords could use a SMALL which means little, tiny, miniscule and nano buff if you don't understand these words then I don't know what to tell you.

This thread isn't saying that Heavy Swords need to out damage everything forever, no me and many other would like to see that the Gran Faust, Triglav and Saduruska could get a small buff to maybe their charges, maybe their damage. They are not good even in situations where they should be.
I don't remember reading the title of this thread saying Divine Avenger is OP and the other Heavy Swords are amazing cause the Divine Avenger is great.

You say that Divine Avenger is great just like all the other people do because of Vanadukes levels, but have you ever considered there's more then just Vanaduke? Maybe look at the other gates that say Tier 3 and don't have Firestorm Citadel? You'd see there are these things called levels with places like arenas, and some have danger rooms, some are completely wolver based, and there is this one level called Deconstruction Zone where Gremlins actually Swarm. Not only that but Vanaduke as I will repeat is NOT the secret final ending boss of this game. I'm not going to complain about Vog Cub cause it's useful in other places besides Vanaduke, I'm not going to complain about Leviathan Blade cause it can be used in other places besides Vanaduke, I'm not going to complain about the Dread Venom Striker cause it can be used in other places besides Vanaduke. I am going to complain about Heavy Swords cause there's only one good one and it's logic argument is Divine Avenger is great in Vanaduke.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 20:17

#41

Coldtart

GF curse marks 2 weapons, not

GF curse marks 2 weapons, not 3 with neutral curse resist. That's a 50/50 that you can still use the weapon you want and nearly guaranteed that you can still use a weapon that is usable. Just this morning i cursed myself with GF in the final wave of an arena. When I finished I was still cursed, it literally did not slow me down.

If you think the Acheron charge has a hitbox that is only slightly smaller than GF you need to look again. DA and GF charge have enormous hitboxes. You can hit significantly more enemies at a time with these charges than with brandish charges. Also gremlins cannot dodge the charge projectile. Gremlins dodge backwards, which leaves them still in line to be hit by the projectile.

1 to 3 enemies cursed per use of the charge is 1 - 3 enemies that are as good as dead. You're really understating just how powerful curse is as an effect. You're also forgetting that GF can deal the same sort of damage as the Acheron's charge in a larger area with its normal combo. The drawbacks of the charge aren't major drawbacks because you almost never need the charge.

As for comparing GF to FoV, they really can't be compared.FoV is all about the charge while GF is all about the normals but has a powerful charge to use when necessary.

"but I've seen the gran faust in action"
I see the GF in action every single day when I use it. I'd rather not be told things about a weapon I use by someone who doesn't use it.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 20:45

#42

Khamsin

"and there is this one level

"and there is this one level called Deconstruction Zone where Gremlins actually Swarm."

Clearly it isn't challenging or significant enough to the player populace to convince them they need to have a normal damage or shadow damage sword. You don't seem to understand the logic of players here. They want a weapon that is versatile and powerful - DA gives them that. DA is strong in most of the scenarios people are in commonly. I will admit I have seen gremlins swarm in significant numbers once before, and that was in a danger room. Guess what? Danger rooms don't reward well enough to convince me that investing in a weapon for that specific scenario is worthwhile. The same can be said for most players.

It is the same reason I use a polaris over a supernova. The shock is just a bonus - I use polaris because I'm not shooting enemies that are resistant to elemental because they all dodge. Elemental resistant enemies just act differently from others for the most part, so your general purpose weapons don't need to factor them in. If your general purpose weapons are for everything except elemental resistant enemies, then smart money says to get an elemental weapon. I have a GF and a normal damage heavy sword, once elemental resistant enemies act like most other enemies (the exception being devilites and maybe kats) then I will swap my DA out for normal damage or GF. By the way, I believe a fair bit of the population does have GFs, they just don't use them in PVE.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 20:53

#43

Grenze

A SMALL BUFF IS TO MUCH

Well you know what end discussion cause apparently it's asking to much, I don't know how to explain it. If people like Heavy Swords so much why don't they want a improvement but fine time to go sell a Triglav and a Gran Faust cause it's F%*#ing useless compared to the Divine Avenger. I mean what's the point in using them they aren't allowed to get a buff cause the Divine Avenger exists. And if people don't use weapons in PVE why do they exist, why do they have charges, why do they have data I mean the Divine Avenger is so great screw other things.

My Arguments on the Thread TL;DR Small buffs are to much to ask for and I wasted energy and sh#$ty useless weapons and I must play the game like everyone else. I payed good money and would like to see something get a little better but I am a sap sorry everyone my bad.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 21:00

#44

Grenze

Also this is why suggestion

Also this is why suggestion threads are pointless. Nothing gets improved.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 21:02

#45

Nekosniper

Wait a second here,

Never in this thread have I been arguing against a damage buff for heavy swords, so if y'all can get over your knee-jerk reactions to my mention of Divine Avenger...

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 21:09

#46

Grenze

@ Nekosniper

I'm sorry did I mention your name? No in fact you were actually one of the people I respected the opinion of after one thing I said.

When you said this.

"Now you're putting words in my mouth. :x"

"I have blundered face-first into a zombie's claws with my DA. It happens a lot less than it does with my fast swords though, as I tend to play more calmly with heavy swords."

As in you clearly saw there are flaws in Heavy Swords enough to like the idea but everyone else doesn't like the idea of a small buff.

You weren't using the same argument everyone else was using at this point. But no I give up suggestion threads are F%#$ing useless cause all it is everything is amazing and a buff would be game breaking.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 22:38

#47

Coldtart

I was quoting Quotefanboy,

I was quoting Quotefanboy, not you Grenze.

The simple fact here is that GF doesn't need to be better than it is. Its normal attack combo is an on demand aoe knockback hitstun pain train that is easily comparable to the Acheron's charge attack. The charge is only situationally useful for the GF because the normal attacks are good enough for 95% of what you want to do with a GF.

Blundering face-first into a zombie's claws with a DA is not a flaw in heavy swords, it's a player mistake. So is using the GF's charge when a normal combo would've sufficed. You have to be switched on while using heavy swords. The second hit is powerful but you'll be punished heavily if you use it incorrectly. Use it correctly though and you'll rampage all across the clockworks backhanding mobs into walls like there's no tomorrow.

Normal speed swords however really lose their edge in T3 compared to heavy swords. Some enemy attacks come out so fast that merely starting your combo a moment too late gets you hit, or not standing absolutely point blank before attacking. Heavy swords can do less damage with their combo attacks and still be better because they're safer, and it's dodging, not damage, that determines how well you do.

Fri, 09/30/2011 - 23:20

#48

Plaguerider

"You say that Divine Avenger

"You say that Divine Avenger is great just like all the other people do because of Vanadukes levels, but have you ever considered there's more then just Vanaduke? Maybe look at the other gates that say Tier 3 and don't have Firestorm Citadel? You'd see there are these things called levels with places like arenas, and some have danger rooms, some are completely wolver based, and there is this one level called Deconstruction Zone where Gremlins actually Swarm. Not only that but Vanaduke as I will repeat is NOT the secret final ending boss of this game. I'm not going to complain about Vog Cub cause it's useful in other places besides Vanaduke, I'm not going to complain about Leviathan Blade cause it can be used in other places besides Vanaduke, I'm not going to complain about the Dread Venom Striker cause it can be used in other places besides Vanaduke. I am going to complain about Heavy Swords cause there's only one good one and it's logic argument is Divine Avenger is great in Vanaduke."

GPOY^^^^^ RIGHT HERE!
That is all I ever hear about Vanaduke this, Vanaduke that. You are all such fools!. The whole game isn't about Vanaduke. Therefor the whole game will not prove that DA is useful. but when it comes time to use our other heavy swords, I'd like to see them be useful, because as of now, they are not! If you don't understand this and continue to run your mouth about Vanaduke and Divine Avenger then STFU and GTFO. I DON'T CARE ABOUT VANADUKE. END OF STORY. I DON'T CARE ABOUT DIVINE AVENGERS. END OF STORY.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 00:23

#49

Niichi

I must admit I'd at least

I must admit I'd at least like to see the Triglav line get a buff to its charge attack because it is horrible compared to many others. It just is too narrow an attack and leaves you wide open, especially with a mob after you. Compared to something like the beam sword spam of the DA or the spin attack of the calibur line it just isn't worth using and is more likely to be an open invitation for enemies to walk up and smack you. ._.

Sat, 10/01/2011 - 00:36

#50

Coldtart

The thing is, DA is the best

The thing is, DA is the best sword everywhere, not just in FSC. Just because DA has a great charge attack that sweeps all the way through FSC like nothing doesnt mean that the charge is all it has. The 2 hit combo that DA and of course GF have is an excellent attack on its own that is comparable in utility and damage to the charge attacks of brandish type swords. It doesn't matter how little you care about FSC or DA, DA is the best sword in the game and FSC is the best endgame level to run.

DA and GF are good everywhere. Suda and Triglav will never be as good for the simple reason that you don't use something that kinda fits the job when you have something that's perfect for the job. DA and GF can smash everything without their charge attacks. I use these swords everywhere, I know what I'm talking about.

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Spiral knight's weapons needs to revamp their weaponry. A must read for a PvE Heavy swordsman.