The armor looks fantastic! Players have been begging for end-game content and now that they have it, people are whining about it...
Shadow Lairs
000, you created an arrangement with your playerbase - you can play the game for free, but there must be payment for gear. This is the implied agreement that has existed throughout the game so far. I play the game, and I CHOOSE to spend more money to enhance my enjoyment.
Now, you're stabbing your playerbase in the back. This content should be ours to enjoy - we have supported you and you should reward us for that support, not punish us by putting the content behind a gate. If there isn't any reconsideration... well, there are other games on steam to spend money on. I love SK but I can only see things getting worse if you go through with it.
A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different.
Except that is not how it goes.
People sporting accessories who have not opened lockboxes are ones that dislike gambling or just don't feel like risking getting something completely worthless or that they won't like. Buying the actual accessory is obviously much easier than rolling five hundred boxes for it.
If shadow keys are common, still doesn't change anything - Looking at accessories, I doubt it'll be less than 10K crowns. That's about 200 energy, y'know? 200 energy for a single run! (Not to say there has been no mention about any possible training modes for preparation, or any way to return to the dungeon, even if just to the start, for a cheaper or free price, if you happen to die)
So unless we pay no energy to descend levels in the Shadow Lair, and the crown loot is better, this is going to be just absolutely ridiculous.
I'm going to guess Shadow Keys will be rare and thus expensive, which will further screw this whole situation up. If they end up getting sold for 10K or less, it might even be somewhat fine, but that's really, really unlikely. So if that's not the case, no; Get out and reanalyze what you're doing.
Still would like my questions in my previous post answered.
Any way to do clearance like we do for T2 & T3 but with shadow keys as the requirement?
have a mist wall for inaccessible players, and ones with access the ability to walk through.
You can have a different number of shadow keys required to open each clearance (assuming bosses are allocated by gate or whatever).
Like 2 for the T2 bosses, 3 for the T3 one.
You can also lower the drop rate of shadow keys, driving up the prices in the market. This will require more lockboxes to be opened, netting it even to the current system
While the allure of getting the rewards will cause players to buy and use shadow keys, when someone has collected all available rewards, what is their incentive to to replay those levels with guildmates / friends if there is a fee.
---
Just exploring an alternative, but I think the single use will still be fine.
A party won't consistent of 4 knights who have no need of any materials/rewards, and the 5* gear will be unbound and easily saleable? (unless they have 4* equipment requirements.)
Making gear dependent on CE is acceptable. Making vanity items dependent on CE is acceptable. Making content dependent on CE is ridiculous.
I will not support this update as it is currently, I will not be buying any more CE to play it, and if this trend in updates continues, I will not be playing SK at all. This update is underhanded, and borderline offensive.
So we now have to:
1) spend our mist/CE on running the clockworks to spin the wheel to have a *small chance* of scoring a lockbox but will most likely get 5 crowns or hearts just before each terminal & town...
2) then we have to spend 750CE on a key to open said lockbox to have a *small chance* of scoring a shadow key but will most likely get an accessory that is worth less than half what we paid for the key...
3) then we have to band up with friends/guildmates who are willing to compensate you for the *one time* use of your key to go into a realm that will most likely cost us more energy in elevators etc to have a *small chance* of collecting the necessary materials to make one of the new armours
4) repeat steps 1-3 to beat the bosses to get the 'shadow realm tokens' to purchase the recipes for said armours or *insert token rewards here*
No matter how you suger coat this Nick, this is a blatent money grab. Even using the 'auction house for boxes/keys arguement' it will, like the UV system, put the money in the hands of the very lucky few who beat the casino like odds and score it big, forcing everyone else to put their hand in thier pocket to pay for items to access to the content that only the lucky or perseverant will aquire.
So be lucky, or be rich, otherwise don't bother playing as you will never access the end game content...is that really your buisness model?
* Just for the record I have paid more than my share of real money into this game in support of OOO and the great job they have done, that is not an issue for me, but no more, not for this, no way.
they charge you ce to use those rinkydink elevators too. oh the humanity.
1. Buy CE
2. Buy Silver Key
3. Buy/acquire Iron Lockbox
4. Open Iron Lockbox and hope for Shadow Key
5. Assemble competent party and use the Shadow Key to access the Shadow Lairs
6. Either
>> A) Get roflstomped, waste a Shadow Key and hope you learned enough from your defeat to do better next time;
>> B) Burn through massive amounts of CE reviving to carry yourself through the lairs;
>> C) Win, get cool armor, bragging rights, make videos and start forums drama, whatever you like. A winner is you!
While I understand it's aimed at the best Spiral Knights players there are, it all just seems very convoluted and expensive. That's just my opinion though. .___.
Yes, the armor does look fantastic, but what about the 750ce price to PLAY The level, and to get level exclusive mats (in which you might not get all of them in a single run), the recipe, and 800ce to CRAFT it, and ect. (not including price for revs in a harder version of bosses -_-)
I'm just waiting for the stats on what the armors do. If they outclass my current 5* armors (the ones that I spent copious amounts of CE for MAX UVs on), then I'm uninstalling immediately, and not looking back.
There's no way I'm putting up with my end-game gear being invalidated.
Three Rings is looking at the wrong places for profit. They should be looking at necessities of early-game players!
Want to use the auction house? Costs a one-time 1000 CE fee to even access it!
Want to use trade chat? Pay up 500 CE to the "Communications Headmaster" for access!
Boss stratums are now 30 CE per gate, to balance the token rewards you get.
Brinks costs 250 CE initially, and every purchase you make from him is a 100 CE fee - better buy in bulk!
You can't spend ME to craft anymore and each recipe requires 2x materials, because crafting should be a privilege, and not a right!
Hell, just tax everybody actually, to generate CE revenue. Every month 50% of your CE is taken away, and if you don't have any CE saved up by collection day (announced through daily spam mail) then you just get a 50% permanent ME reduction because screw you, you don't deserve to play this game you poorbie!
@Knightydood
Because your max UV end gear is suddenly very ineffective on the current content?
Because your identify is defined by the clothes you wear?
If you choose not to participate in the end-game content and the rewards therein, how does it impact your current experience in the current content?
What, so someone can [cause more damage to some mob]* compared to you, therefore your gear is invalidated, and your identify is now that of a mere commoner.
Pish posh.
*or:
- take fewer ticks of fire damage
- have curse last a few seconds less
- can move more quickly
- etc etc etc.
in that case please send me all your stuff sell everything bound and give me the crowns/ leftover energy and 4* and 5* mats
wait, every time we want to play shadow lair we need a key? now that i can see what the rage is about.
Dont know if Cerious is stupid or trolling...
I don't get why we can't just have Boost handing them out like he does with Silver Keys. The logic behind the concept is flawed.
"HEY GUYS, LET'S USE KEYS TO OPEN BOXES THAT MIGHT HAVE MORE KEYS IN THEM! THEY'LL ****ING LOVE IT."
Even with the pants-on-head logic here, the mere aspect of putting out 750 CE ($2.49 if you don't buy in bulk and buy JUST enough for one key) in order to play new content in a game that's otherwise supposed to be F2P is... well, a severe turn-off. I can't really think of any justification behind trying a new set of depths out and essentially buying my way into a game.
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE.
Because if current trends mean anything, then whatever's made in the alchemy machines beyond the boss lairs is more than likely going to be bound-on-acquire and can't be unbound at Vise, much like the Bombhead Masks were after they patched it, as well as any of the items purchased from Sullivan with Krogmo tokens. Basically meaning any of the new armor being made is going to be kept restricted to not only those who are willing to take excessive rolls of the Iron Lockbox dice, but those who are willing to pay to win as well seeing as how I've heard that the new depths are nothing ingenious and just have monsters thrown in wherever there's room in the level to accommodate them.
tl;dr - If I wanted to try my luck in a metaphorical crapshoot by giving anyone money JUST TO SEE whether or not I could play new content, I'd just go play TF2 and open crates all day.
-----------
So now that I'm done expressing my disapproval on how things are being presented to us, I'd like to offer a suggestion or two, if I may.
1. If you're going to include the act of arbitrary luck alongside of everything else that decides whether or not we can even go into the Clockworks, at least make this random arbitrage affordable to the masses. Now that the Silver Keys are essentially going to allow for additional content that isn't just for aesthetics (lolaccessories), please lower the prices substantially on the Silver Keys that Boost sells, or make Silver Keys random drops from either the prize wheel or treasure boxes.
2. In the event that the developers don't want to piss off the general population who dumped tons of CE into purchasing silver keys already, then make Shadow Keys obtainable from the prize wheel or through random treasure boxes in order to keep what's left of the CE market stable.
3. If neither of the above options are feasible, offer a "CE Package" like was done with the Battle Pack and Starter Pack, perhaps named the Shadow Pack. Include 7,500 CE along with 5 mist tanks (since it's assumed you're going to die a fair bit in the depths of the Shadow Lairs, regardless of what tier you're qualified for), and 3-5 Shadow Keys in order to give everyone at least the opportunity to try the content out without having to roll a Lockbox and run the risk of not playing at all. Yes, it's still a money-sink and I realize it's probably not the best solution for the players either, but it's a much better idea than the one being proposed now.
-----------------------------
I'm done, that was my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.
Cerious...
Chill. Just cause you want a cheap shadow key doesn't mean you should make it difficult for new-players. Those suggestions are very unreasonable.
xD
But really, if you don't want to pay for the shadow key, have your good gear and skills and offer to carry some poor 4* "noob" and his party through one of the shadow lairs. They pay, you play.
Don't know if Kinkypenguin is stupid or trolling...
e; I wasn't going to do the ultimate areas anyways. The Jelly King one was the only fun one, everything else was pretty much the same level but with more enemies that make the levels ridiculous.
It's just that the developers are basically spelling out "WE WANT MORE MONEY" and I'm just giving them cool li'l ideas for them to implement since they seem to be lacking ideas (after all they can't even bother to make NEW areas for these "shadow lairs").
sigh*
This happens every time I see an update.
I see it, get excited, read some of it, get more excited, and then become disappointed whenever I finish reading the update.
OOO, You guys crossed the line with me a bit whenever the accessories came out, and a couple updates in the past didn't rub me too well either, but in the past, those were few and far between. Now though, this update is even worse than the prior. The armors and new content made me VERY happy, but to see what it requires, I just don't care anymore.
I'm not going to go into details, because it doesn't change anything, as the forums obviously show.
But the jist of it is, the forums used to complain about the binding update, then CE, then the accessories, but now, instead of topics about that, they're topics complaining about you.
Being with this game since it pretty much started (with my forum-prof made later), having seen OOO go from aspiring new developers to, well, money-grubbers doesn't sit well with me. It's not that you're making money, it's how you're doing it, which frankly makes me glad the "OOO love" topic I MADE is buried.
At first, I was amazed. Then I read this:
Those knights interested in exploring these dangerous new areas are advised that they can only be breached by using powerful artifacts known as Shadow Keys, which can occasionally be acquired from Iron Lockboxes.
Can anyone say "money grab?" I knew you could. Seriously, I pay money for the game, serious money too. But this... For now, I'll just say that I'm not headed into these "shadow lairs" anytime soon. I don't care what challenges or rewards are found inside. 750 energy and a ton of crowns for a chance at a one-time opportunity of playing new content?
No.
Omg you will get such negative feedbacks from all the community with this update that SK will be history within a few weeks.
Especially with the upcoming great games being released in the next weeks/months (dungeon defenders, firefall, torchlight 2, diablo 3 and more..)
Thank you for one thing, letting us preview that desperate last hope money maker patch so I (and probably we) could sell our stuff immediately for TF2 items before everyone does it at the same time...
@ Sypsy No, it's because of principle. I realize that the stats would be a trivial matter, and that having the numbers be only slightly less wouldn't make a big difference. What I would be (hypothetically) objecting to is the blatant disregard for the amount of time spent on acquiring those items.
Say that this update gave us brand new 6* gear instead of the different pieces of 5* we're getting. I could then update my current 5* gear to the better 6* gear with all my UVs intact. I'd be fine with this. Instead, we would be (hypothetically) getting different pieces of 5* gear that (again, hypothetically) outclass what I've spent time, effort, and money getting, and the only way to get them is to spend more money.
In a game entirely dependent on gear, yes, your identity is defined by the clothes you wear. Make a new character on this game, then try getting in an argument with someone in 5* gear about how you're better because of your personality.
@Madadder: You want to pay the 4kCE to have my stuff unbound if I leave? I'll sell them to you free of charge if this update happens the way I think it will. You can hold me to it, if the stats on the new gear outclasses my own.
The only question I have right now is whether one or all party members need to have beaten, say, ultimate snarby to progress into ultimate tier 2.
And I guess I'm also a little curious as to the % to get a shadow key from a lockbox.
I'll reserve judgement until the patch happens and I get to see the prices / chance of shadow keys.
Just created a rant thread you can post in if you think this update is trash.
I just have one honest question: Who put the much desired Shadow Keys inside a locked box that can be easily opened by the very common Silver Key?
I don't know, but if I had a Key to a gate containing madness and goodies, I would keep it with me at all times.
@Sypsy - This would be applicable if the dungeons weren't ridiculously hard. Several members of my guild are incredibly skillful and we all ran the dungeons in the testing server, and even to us the content was ridiculously difficult. It took one or two practice runs before we could run it normally without dying like idiots all the time. Carrying random unskillful players is not going to happen, honestly. Even if you're a god of SK, a single random idiot on a full party may screw everything over.
I'm okay with the Shadow Keys being found in Lockboxes AS LONG IF:
- The elevator costs are from 0-5
- Revives are cheaper
- Terminals still there
- Belt is extended, can hold more than 4 items, and more than 3 of the same item
- Clearances are like checkpoints. They can be reached again, even after a few monthes.
- AND THE PERSON WHO USES THE KEY GETS A BONUS PRIZE!!!
Oh and a little suggestion...
Newer items meant for the Shadow Lair should be classed by Star colour.
red stars = clearance 1
yellow stars = clearance 2
green stars = clearance 3
Another great update ruined by $$$. You know, I could deal with this, and find it reasoable, IF IT WASN'T SHADOW KEY PER VISIT.
i will hold my opinion until the content's release
however this is why hype more evil than OOO business practices
Hope in reality is the worst of all evils, because it prolongs the torments of man
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Ok, I have another honest question: What happens if you spend CE to open Iron Lockboxes, acquire a Shadow Key, get a party of 4 together to venture into the new area, and your power goes out? Do you find yourself in Haven cursing the Gods when log back in 10 minutes later?
Considering how difficult the boss strata were in preview and how we can access them in the regular game, I think that Three rings has reached a new low. This isn't even on the same level as anything that has upset us before; this honestly feels like Three Rings has slapped us in the face. I feel disgusted and betrayed. I may have been melodramatic in my response to the accessory expansion, but this time I am completely serious. With this move, Three Rings has lost a great deal of respect from me, and unless they change their minds, I will hold little more than contempt for them and will look less kindly onto them then I do the scum that gets in the soles of my boots.
By the way OOO, I applaud your marketing strategy. Send out pics of the new gear to get everyone all hyped up, then......
BLAMO! Pay us all your monies and THEN we will give you that cool stuff= Insta-dissapointment. (as usual) -_-
@Knightydood
Well, you have your good gear already. No one will look at your gear and "de-value" the luck/CE it took to acquire that UV. It doesn't suddenly become super easy to roll those very UV's you spent so long trying to acquire.
When the polaris came out, I don't think someone who raged about how their max UV storm driver was now worthless was taken very seriously. That gun was still good, there is now just an alternative.
I would suspect it's similar in this case.
Also, to expect a designer to consider and recognize how hard it was for you to acquire said item when they design subsequent items is silly. These "rare" items can be had by shear luck through the first craft of a new player, or can be acquired for 50 USD... Theses costs are not the same.
Apple doesn't consider the "cost" to the boy who sold his kidney for an iphone 4 when they released the iphone 4S.
I am not opposed to paying to enter elite areas. And that is what these are... ELITE AREAS. Your casual player is not going to be able to do them, they're not meant to. The areas are exclusively designed for the high end players.
Elite areas usually have some kind of cost to play, in this case its a key. The keys might be as common as Canteens and end up being cheap, doubtful but possible.
@Knightydood
"I'm just waiting for the stats on what the armors do. If they outclass my current 5* armors (the ones that I spent copious amounts of CE for MAX UVs on), then I'm uninstalling immediately, and not looking back.
There's no way I'm putting up with my end-game gear being invalidated."
If that is the case, which it probably is (the rewards have to be worth the massive risk), then see ya hun. That is how MMOs work, when you get a massive addition with new areas, especially elite areas, new goodies are released. Elite areas = elite gear normally. What is the point of doing the area if your reward is the same as stuff you already have?
@Nick
Looking forward to dancing with the devil and the insane amounts of pain they're going to put my knight through... soloing a Fenrir sounds fun.
~Gwen
Well I tossed OOO $60 when accessories were released and I didn't find a single tail, scarf, or wing. Just a bunch of garbage. I am willing to place my bets again but finding a shadow key better be easier then finding a wolver tail and by easy I mean like finding a stupid Barrel belly easy other wise.... NO DEAL HOWIE!
I have been VERY careless with my money and how I spend it on SK but after the accessories kicked my hopes and dreams into a bloody pulp I am worried about spending my money like a drunken sailor.
I could have satisfied my obsession of swarovski rabbit figures for the amount I have spent on this have. Hmm I just might change my mind for some Crystal Lead instead of Crystal Energy. (haha see what I did there, but seriously I want me some bunnies)
Throw us some numbers on how hard it will be to find this key.
This is the first update to ever annoy me since Beta.
$2.50 for A CHANCE of playing the endgame.
I was excited for this update Nick, I thought we would finally get the content we had been waiting for just to play and have fun.
I will see how the market plays out, but I have grim expectations.
This update will likely ruin SK forever, and I'm not just being tropey here. I get the feeling that late-game players are the main source of income from Lockboxes, and I believe that this update will likely drive them away, as they see that they're paying through the nose for a chance at difficult levels.
Having content that is only accessible on a mere chance, and that requires that chance to occur again in the event that a team gets TPK'd, is entirely ridiculous, and frankly feels like a massive money grab. I'm really saddened that the money brought in from Lockboxes has whet OOO's appetite for extortion.
Why not just make Shadow Keys purchasable from Boost (for a reasonable sum)? Additionally, why not make keys unlock the stratums permanently, but require one key per level. If OOO prices the Shadow Keys at 1400 CE each, that's 5600 CE ($20, at $2.5 = 7500 CE) which is a reasonable price for an expansion of this size. I'd pay $20 for permanent access to four new (and awesome looking) stratums, as well as the loot that comes along with them, and I believe that many others would as well (and I think it's unlikely that anyone has the patience to grind up to 4000 CE, so it encourages purchasing CE as well!).
tl;dr version: Make this in effect a purchasable expansion pack to SK, or there's trouble ahead for the game.
Also, a note to the the general opposition of the shadow key implementation:
Three rings will always monitor the trends within the game before making changes.
If you want a change, then the behaviour of the whole community will need to demonstrate that this "lockbox - shadow key" system does not work.
So if enough players put their vote in favour of the system, by buying silver keys to get shadow keys and play the new content, then nothing will change.
If too few players do this, then clearly the vote is against the system and it will need a change.
If in time, there is no change, then your cries for "great justice" were clearly the minority.
@Gwen do you enjoy get bent over and messed up by 000 because as what you just wrote there pretty much tell me you do. Your take what ever crap they throw at you and your enjoy it with out protest!
Im glad your made of money siting on your demand throne over there but not many people will pay a once chance to get totally destroyed for a stupid amount of money 000 im really debating why i started playing this game.
i will think i will call it a day and so will hundred of player and wait for the better game GW2 to come out as you will soon be player-less at this rate
got to love the moment this thread start to turn from excitement to confusion and finally to anger the Mods just scuttle away unwilling to reply to anything that has been said here or to explain there action.
Hey. Debate, dissent, speculation, and so on about the upcoming update is fine. However, please take care not to make personal attacks against each other.
Well the people that open lockboxes because of accessories currently have lowered since they didnt find the items they were promised (scarves, tails, wings), you made them too rare. Obviously on purpose.
Now, these people are going to open these boxes and find keys instead, stuff they do not want at all. The people that want keys do not want to open lockboxes either because they will find accessories, which they do not want either. Regardless if finding a shadow key will be profitable or not (depending on how much the demand of the elite players is lol), it's not desirable to the core of the people that open lockboxes right now. I can only see this working if all lockboxes contain accessories, and some of them come with a shadow key as well, that way they get what they wanted in the first place and may get something extra to sell to recoup their costs since they usually get garbage anyway.
@ Gwenyvier:
There's a vast difference between "being elite" and "being lucky". It would be entirely different if these keys were permanently in your inventory in the same way that a recon module is, and in fact, if they were to decide to prevent luck from being a factor of whether or not we even get to be a part of any new content, I would agree with you 100%, since then this update would amount to nothing more than DLC for what is otherwise a F2P game.
Instead, based on the information we've been told regarding this new area called the "Shadow Lairs", it's content that we'll end up paying a hefty sum of in-game currency to visit one time. Not only is it a one-time visit, but we aren't even guaranteed the trip because there's a poorly disguised selection process that puts absolutely no emphasis on being good at the game.
Keep in mind, in no way am I knocking your personal choice regarding the Shadow Lairs content and how you're willing to pay that kind of price, but I'd really like to know how your main argument is that only elite players will be able to play the content at all, yet the process of getting access isn't based on skill, but based on luck instead?
This is flat out ridiculous, and after reading how this system of shadow keys is supposed to work I am disgusted at how OOO is choosing to approach the new content. I will reserve my full judgement until after the new content has been out for a week, or so, but paying 750CE for a key to open an iron box for a chance at a another key is ludicrous. Why not just have access to the harder levels at the core and suck the energy out of players with revive and elevator costs? It will already take a very significant portion of ME to even reach the core and CE would be needed to go on, especially with revive costs building up.
These aren't just newer players complaining in the forums, I've been playing Spiral Knights daily since April and have been very happy with the game thus far, but if OOO implements Shadow Lairs as planned you may very soon see a 'Quitting the game Sale' from me in the Bazaar Forum as it's bordering on extortion. In my mind OOO has gone from releasing a game that was very F2P friendly to a changing it into a game that tries to squeeze every penny a customer has to get the full experience of Spiral Knights. This planned idea will be VERY bad for business as the most serious players will be driven away. Instead of only having to occasionally buy CE to get to end-game content in a reasonable amount of time. It will take a player $2.50 (750CE) every time they want a chance to play the end game content, with the rewards being just the materials for making 5* gear (of which 5,000 crowns and 800CE will have to be spent to craft). End rant.
@Everyone
I've got to agree with Eurydice on this. There's no way at all that OOO will even consider our requests for alternatives to their current system if all we do is rage. We have to respectfully offer viable alternatives, or the devs will ignore our tears and screams.
@Nick how many of those accessory wearers are F2P though? If I bought some CE to deck my knight out in accessories, I'd be heading straight for the auction house, not boost. It's not exactly a surprise that box opening is limited to a handful of speculators.
I think accessories are going to be the only upside to this update for me - the accessory prices in the AH are sure to plummet for a few days as a handful of P2P players make a mad rush for shadow keys; I might actually be able to afford to buy one.
It's a given that your first priority is to the P2P players, but if you chase away the F2P players, well, nobody's going to fork over cash to play in a ghost town.
Not only does he have the same ideas as me, but I essentially went to go post how if we just moan and groan at each other without making any kind of valid points regarding the content themselves, that we're not going to get anywhere only to see that he ninja'd me.
So...
7 months later we get new endgame content...
And they put a lock on it with a random overpriced chance to get a key for it. Fantastic.
Finally!!! A new challenge because the old challenges were no longer challening.
The new challenges are the old challenges made more challenging.
P.S. you're locked out.
Sigh.
I think most end game players would be quite happy to purchase keys to access this content/ new tiers if that access was permanent. Put keys in lockboxes by all means, but also sell them at boost and have each key allow one player to unlock a new tier, permanently.
We are all happy to pay for new content, but not over and over again everytime we want to access it - and certainly not for a mere chance at access.
OOO need to move away from this lottery model and move towards a more regular mmo model otherwise they will lose their paying playerbase.
Anything more than a fixed priced expansion is just greed.
I've been playing this game since it released, and (almost) every update has been depressing. Every time I've gotten my hopes up its been squashed by $$$. 750 CE+ for a chance to die -_-.