this is just like how they said 5/17 would end the game.... yet it didnt
Shadow Lairs
The ceiling for just ACCESSING this new content is far too high.
It's not 750 for a Key. It's 750 for A CHANCE for a key. And like most other things in this game, the % chance is left for us knights to data-mine.
I already 750 CE for a cosmetic accessory was high, but was fine with it since it did not provide any stats.
750 CE to access content is another story.
Even the richest players will not be able to afford running this content.
OOO, I urge you to reconsider this because the hard work the game design developers and artists will go to waste if there is a giant wall preventing 99.99% of the players from accessing it.
As of the information I have right now, the risks involved in running through these ultimate levels is no where near the rewards earned.
It is the same principle for the nerf in crown/heat output in danger rooms. You simply nerfed them so much that I don't even bother doing them any more.
@Starlinvf its not the end of the game is just a REALLY BAD UPDATE, really is the worst update i see in a F2P online game...but the new goddies are the new End game equip. and you only need to spent in ??? silver keys to get 1 Shadow key to die and waste more energy and repeat.
Also.. "hard work the game design developers and artists will go to waste"
"People... if you haven't play-tested it... it's recycled boss stratum.
Yes... it's different and harder but it's NOT new.
Seriously... I get to go to new and shiny places only the elite can get to and I get recycled versions of what's come before?"
Also the Arcane Salamander is just a recolor...
Hard work my ...
Join us at Haven 15 garden to make a public message about what we think about this update.
#OccupyHaven
Starlinvf, this is hardly a game-breaking scenario.
With all due respect, I don't know from which depth of your excretion-hole did you pull that out from, but uhm... So far I don't think anyone's said that this will break the game. Truth is, it'll just anger people that have endgame armor and will have to be stuck, knowing that there is more content out there that is out of their reach. That, and it will probably discourage some newer players as well. Then yet again, what you want to do is beat a game, though you have to see that as difficult when you can't just straight up cough some dough to get it-- You have to count your chances and actually look for a chance to get this new content.
If you ask me, the rate of Shadow Keys spawning won't be extremely low, but they'll be low. Not only do you have a system where uncrating means losing money, but now you've got incentive that pushes you into risking your money some more.
Only the truly rich players will be able to afford this. And even then, they probably won't be too happy about it.
So, has anyone read this particular line from the wiki?
"Such advanced alchemy is beyond the capabilities of the Spiral Order's alchemy stations, however... Perhaps there's something more to be found beyond the bosses of the Shadow Lairs?"
So, Shadow Alchemy Stations or something? I'll leave this here, make of it what you will.
I'll admit: I'm worried about this update. I'll reserve judgment until everything is said and done, but I'm still pretty worried.
We get a release that likely <1% of the game pop will actually use, using recycled content.
I'm sorry - new content should be something everyone can have a "reasonable" chance of using.
This is supposed to be a "F2P" game - a release like this CLEARLY indicates otherwise.
:P
Jacobey
@Byrnius: its all the people who are in a huff about not being able to get easy access to it, and how it'll drive people away because they won't put the effort into getting it either...
This is no different in terms of effort then the Elite armors in Guildwars. It requires a set of conditions be met to gain access to the area, the area farmed for suitable materials, then completing a task (ie boss) in order to gain access to a crafting NPC. It could take a dedicated player weeks to collect everything they need to make a complete set of armor, and access to the area itself is completely dependent on PvP activities. It even goes as far as pitting different regions of the real world against each other for privilege (along with a regional drop bonus). The armor itself is just aesthetically different, albeit awesome looking in most cases, and only the most insanely dedicated players bother to attempt it. Everyone else simply doesn't care.
Currently in Haven 15
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7605/spiral20111018233046.png
Everything OOO has released so far has been compoundingly awesome (hell yes i made up a word). But all it's doing is releasing new content for a small percentage of the dwindling playerbase. People have enough trouble trying to finish T3 without dying in maxed gear and by people i don't mean those few elitists. The armor sets are awesome and will force people to go after them. But i have serious doubts that those people will even have a fair chance at getting them.
finally a snarby suit, I want one badly but if its going to cost a lot of trouble for it.....I hope it's worth it
Just fyi.... i think this update is BS. I am not wasting my time on a CHANCE to get shadow keys. I'd rather quit this game if this happens. Buh Bye. Period.
@Madadder: More like- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8fWUUXeKM
@ maddader
This is better. Just replace valve with OOO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioyNF9W6eqU
Make shadow keys work like weapon / trinket slots: they allow a person (together with 3 other knights) to access the shadow lairs for a month. The way to obtain the key is fine but I would suggest a probability no less than 1/3.
watch what madadder linked
<3 extra credits
tldr: market test your prices = ]
@Nick: "A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different."
Um. I can think of a couple reasons...
- Up to this point, accessories have been in 100% of lockboxes. Shadow keys will presumably be in less than 100% of lockboxes after this update, and will therefore be rarer than "accessories", or at least rarer than accessories currently are.
- Accessories come in many varieties, distributed randomly, so players looking for a specific variety will get lots of accessories they don't want and might as well sell. Shadow keys sound like they're all identical, so someone opening lockboxes with the purpose of finding shadow keys for themselves has no reason to sell any of them--they'll get just enough for themselves and then stop.
- Accessories are permanent, so each player only wants a limited number, and then they're done, giving other players a shot. Shadow keys are consumable, so players may hoard them.
- Accessories cannot be transformed into anything else, while shadow keys apparently can be turned into unique shadow boss items not obtainable any other way. Thus, even players who don't want those boss items might prefer to sell them than to sell shadow keys needed to get them.
Statistically, I'm sure that there will be SOME players selling shadow keys. But you're implying that shadow keys will be spread out as much as accessories, which...seems exceedingly unlikely. Especially if opening lockboxes and selling the contents loses money on average, as currently seems to be the case.
What no one has mentioned is that (I'm only speculating here) killing the boss would only give you 3-5 tokens whereas the actual equipment itself would cost at least 25 tokens which would mean having to go through the Shadow Lairs AGAIN and AGAIN to grind for tokens. Coupled with the fact that the Shadow Keys are only obtainable from Iron Lockboxes would mean that there's a better chance of HL Ep3 being released before I ever get a piece of that gear.
However, if the bosses do drop the equipment itself then my argument is invalid.
I really hope they don't mess up the stats on the new armour so much that it turns T3 lockdown into a "haves vs have-nots" affair. Heart pendants are already bad enough that way.
Granted it won't affect me much since I only do T2 and T1 LD, but still...
Dang, looks interesting but those shadow keys will be too expensive for me.
Well, like every disagreeable update to the economy, you won't get your way. OOO will release it.
The thing is that this will be affordable for super wealthy endgame players. For me, even though I'm mostly to the end game, I don't have much in the way of wealth. I'm tired of this game constantly raising the cost of each new thing so the really rich players have something to do. I still don't feel as if I should have to constantly be playing energy and recipe markets (and now accessories too) just to earn enough extra profit over my clockwork dives to keep up. People make hundreds of thousands of crowns that way and if you want to play a game that's all numbers go play EVE online, I just want to play in the clockworks. Many, myself included, said all that about accessories but that actually turned out better than expected (for me anyway). Hopefully, this ends up being slightly cheaper for everyone than we think.
I've been around since april and I've paid for CE now and again as I saw fit. I'm just worried that CE sales are a bit more hand over fist so you can access new content with each update. (AKA I feel like I'm being forced to buy CE to continue playing as opposed to buying CE because I want to support OOO)
another thing is, what if i use the key and get disconnected (steam). or something unexpected happens and it kicks me from being idled? this one-use thing is rage inducing.
I'll post here, I guess. Eurydice posted, so it's got attention.
here's the steps to doing Shadow runs!
1- join a guild, preferably a T3 guild.
2- spend your ME on T3 runs and earn 8-10k a day.
3- sell your mats, keep your lockboxes.
4- Buy CE with Cr, save up enough to unlock your own lockbox. Then unlock it.
5- if you get a key, YAY! if you don't AWWW. someone in your guild will eventually.
6- when keys are found, announce. Then...AS A GUILD...you will plan the run around whoever has said key.
7- wash and repeat until nobody wants to do it anymore.
well, what if you're not T3/case-hardened in Vanaduke's lair?
Lockboxes are profitable for noobs and lowbs, especially the ones who crack open their wallets. These shadow keys are most likely not going to be bind, so...SELL EM. Sell the key for 100k! that's 25k a person on the run...which is 3-5 days of saving cr. People who're running the Shadow Gates better well be able to make 25k a week with ME.
people people people, this is not end-game. This is 2x hard mode for players who're ready. This will be for the players who like to chuckle about being CE tycoons, and have multiple suits covered in hand-picked accessories. Some of the upper-class players...for whom this update is being released for...are the exact ones crowing about how horrible it is, and how OOO should be boycotted. The reality is that they don't want to break into their 7 digit nest eggs for some reason, because SK wealth somehow reflects on your real life somehow...
Frankly, you're saving all this currency for nothing. Spend it on this content and be the first to look cool, or hit that point some day where you ragequit/workquit/boredquit/etc, and wonder what the heck you're gonna do with 9000CE and 450000cr.
And don't say give it away...you know you won't do that. Who you gonna give it to? Another SK richie? a T2 shmuck? Frankly, I'm staring down the barrel of 2 dozen or more 5* weapons/armor I want to find homes for before I retire.
so why don't we all just take a big ole breath and release it. Calm your sphincters and unbunch your panties. It hasn't even been released.
At this point, I wouldn't blame OOO for pulling the plug on SK and reassigning the staff to other projects. Post "game closed due to lack of player maturity" on the homepage in 72pt Times New Roman. Not center aligned or anything. That'd be something I'd do, at least.
What if the server needs to be rebooted in 45 minutes after you insert you valuable key?
@negimasonic
okay, watching a load screen on youtube hurt my brain.
@Tengu
Mission accomplished. Now give me all your CE so I can put it into these lockboxes
I wish I had a Spiral Knights near me =(
"game closed due to lack of player maturity"
itd have to be 18+, not 13+, otherwise this would be public self destruction :o..
Casuals: New Players, Entitled F2P'ers, Rising Stars
Veterans: Middle Class, Noveau Riche, Economists, P2P'ers, Hardcore F2P'ers
Scrooges: Fashion Magnates, Rich and Infamous, Max UV's
...who may have the same goals in fighting the power, yet for different reasons.
update the game now? o will be the day?
The one thing I don't like about this is how it goes against everything you've already established about this game.
Just as stated in the link Madadder posted, in that same video, it's not a good idea to seperate the F2P players and the paying ones. All you do is alienate a good chunk of your community.
The only reason I started to pay in this game was because I liked what I saw, and I wanted to get more of it faster. So I payed, played, and got better at the game.
However, with this being more about Luck and money than actual skill, I'm actually starting to regret having put time and money into this.
And Nick, that's a silly assumption to make. If there's anything to go by, getting one shadow key out of five lockboxes means that you will have spent about $12 doing so. Considering that the current price is about 55k cr for ONE silver key and multiplying that by the money usually spent to get a shadow key, a F2P player will be spending about 275k cr for ONE chance at extreme mode, it will take them about 2 months of daily jk runs to earn that one chances. And judging by current models, to get anything worthwhile, they'll have to do this multiple times. All I can really foresee this doing is drving off a lot of players, mostly the ones who've hit the current end-game, yet don't possess the means to complete the REAL end-game like the rich-kids can.
If the keys cost about 2k ce and gave a 1 month access to the shadow clockworks, than I'd have less of an issue with that, as it throws out the admiitedly ridiculous lottery concept and trades it in for time and/or money spent. I would be happy with that. It gives both the paying and the non-paying people a good chance at playing the end-game. Yes, 2k is a lot, but then again, you are playing much harder versions of existing clockworks. So while the elites may finish it easily, not everyone else will. Not everyone is an elite. If the rewards are good enough, you'll have people buying those simply to revisit the shadoworks again and again to get everything.
As it stands, if this goes through, I'll be seeing ya then. I don't want to play a game where the rich kids will have pay-only weapons and armor, thus having the advantage in PVP. I did that once, never again.
Oh crap.. this is turning into club penguin!
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Why OOO? WhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyYyYyYyYWhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyYyYyYyYWhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyYyYyYyYWhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyYyYyYyYWhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyYyYyYyY
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You still there? Get out. I'm sad.
So if you need one Shadow Key for getting a team of 4 players in for one run, what happens if somebody gets disconnected and can't get in back in? It's not like some random player can join your team right? Even if a random player can join your team, it's not guaranteed. Can you invite somebody to fill the empty spot? If so, what if there's nobody's available to join? It's going to be harder with less players.
This is just going to cause rage and frustration to the players. Not only the frustration of obtaining a key, but while playing the Shadow Lair. I'd be pissed if I was one of the 3 players still playing for the team getting weaker, and I'd be frustrated and feeling guilty if I was the player who got disconnected and can't get back on. You also force people to play once it's started....if you got to go because something came up, you can't. If somebody else in the team has to go, the others will be pissed. Also why would players experienced playing the Shadow Lair want to have a noob player come along? If the levels are ridiculously hard and the team slots are so valuable because it's so hard to obtain a shadow key, then this forces people to only want good experienced players to be on the team. This is going to lead to people getting excluded or kicked all the time. That's not good for the community.
All in all this key business is sounding like a terrible idea.
Oh man.
As if people needed more reasons to jump ship with Diablo 3 just a couple months away.
Three Rings, you've pretty much lit a stick of dynamite and stuffed it into your pants.
Umm Cryo... I don't know how to break this to you, but this isn't segregating the player base. For a relevant example, its like the people who are doing a run in the arcade gate when it rotates out. The players are still part of the player base, but they are "temporarily" in an area thats not freely accessible to the rest of the players. They WILL return to Haven after a short period, and can no longer reenter the closed gate, just like everyone else.
Segregating your player base is like the Puzzle Pirates subscription server, where those players can't interact with Doubloon players on the F2P servers. Or like Halo Map packs.... where a huge chunk of the players migrate to, and those who didn't buy the map pack have almost no one to play with.
As for the associated cost, your disregarding how the player market operates. You can recoup some (not all) of your speculation on the key by selling the Accessories you obtain. In rare cases, you can also obtain a prismatic, which will more then pay for itself. And your not directly spending $12, your spending CE that can be obtained through a number of methods. OR you could simply buy/trade for a key for crowns if someone is willing to sell. This does NOT prevent players who do not use cash from entering the level, it doesn't penalize the players for not having it, and doesn't impact the rest of the game in any way aside from a surge in accessories and the usual CE price hike that follows high consumption. Both of which will sink back to normal after novelty wears off in a couple weeks.
The "mistake" I think Madadder was pointing out was not properly testing the pricing on the keys (aka the $80 monocle).
You know something is wrong when an announcement for new content turns into a protest, what does it take to get the message across that something needs to be changed?
I don't know what everyone is wining about. Every major update; this happens... yet a week after it's accepted, and it actually works. The truth is OOO has got it right every time. People are just scared that they 'have to pay' to gamble (key) for a gamble (CE for revives). Gambling is you own choice... people will still be opening lockboxes for accessories in which you don't need to be skilled or well equipped to use...... and the amount of unwanted shadow keys popping up will end up being a lot. In a month or two the hype will die, and the keys will be a lot cheaper... so the very limited amount of end game players will be swimming in keys that t1 accessory hunters wont want. I know I will end up playing these bosses - and I will probably end up getting the associated gear (please be bombs.... mine are gathering dust)... despite my 2 second lagg which is the only thing that stops me from dungeoning an PvP.
~so.... OOO has got it right ever time so far imo, people are afraid of change. I'm fine with it... it'll be fun =p. I really like the idea of actually pausing before the next room to plan instead of waltzing in and only succeeding upon chance. I didn't play the testing for a reason: it adds more risk on my end ;)
“If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading.” Lao Tzu
= end game sucks guys especially in a game with little replay value once at 5*
Keep the good work up Nick + Team.... oh and Boswick.
They didn't have it right when PvP bomberman didn't work for (cough) some of their player base for months after it was released. Effectively excluding us from the ability to get or sell PvP items. Effectively making (cough) some players completely excluded from the cash cow of unbound costume bomb heads.
They didn't have it right when they made 4-5* items bind on equip so that you couldn't (to quote) "Buy your way to endgame"...then made an unbind shop. Therefore you can still buy your way to endgame, it is just more expensive...connect the dots and see who won that one lol.
I love the game and i appreciate the things that go right. Yet, i'm not naive enough to say they 'got it right every time'. That's simply not true. I don't think releasing new endgame content and then putting this restriction on playing is getting it right. Maybe if new end game content was released all the time, and this was a bonus, then i'd agree. As it is, the challenges and current bosses are so stale i'm left to make up my own challenges. For example, solo'ing JK with nothing but status effect bombs. I cannot tell you how much i'd rather just start working on playing UJK everyday for my new challenge, then solo'ing JK with newer, stupider, more difficult self-imposed restrictions.
Some people must whine about every little thing that is related to CE, and some because they need attention. Really, if you quit this game it will be better.
I think this time you'll see different players complaining. To be honest: This is the very first update that looks as if it has the potential to seriously piss me off. If there isn't a big twist to it it that we can't see yet... well...
I still have hope that OOO knows what it's doing and the whole update will be fun. But I also am afraid, that OOO might just as well: know what it's doing and the update is designed to get the last ce / money they're potentially willing to spend for the game out of "endgame players" and make them leave afterwards, except for the ones who are willing to regularly spend a lot more than I'm willing to. We've been waiting for new playable endgame content for a while, so it's not just "new stuff that you don't have to use": it's the "replacement for the stuff that's not fun any more"... and even if this was *entirely* new content, 5$ per hour sounds not like something that I'm going to want to participate in.
Well... maybe it'll turn out fine. But I think some whining is adequate so OOO can be prepared better for what might be coming if [stuff is like players perceive it atm]. It's called feedback ;)
Damn OOO. Why don't you just hold me down and rummage through my wallet for cash. Because that's how I feel right now. Too much. It's all just too much. The price is too damn much. You are being greedy.
Too much.
At the moment, the only way I can see this update being a success is if the keys are common and unwanted enough for people to start dumping them for 10kcr on the AH like maid headbands, while they pop box after box looking for a prismatic wolver tail or something.
And really, when the best outcome of a game content update is for nobody to care enough about it to actually play it, well...
Before starting to complain, it would be wise to see how much rewarding the new levels will be in terms of crowns and mats. The new special mats alone should sell very well, for example.
@Dottor-Troione
Problem is that would a common Joe playing be able to actually gain access into the Shadow Lair?
Common Joe isn't supposed to be playing the hardest content in the game.
I like how everyone thinks this is going to be the end of a game, despite the fact the only impact its going to have is a small spike in CE prices for the handful of people who are going to take a shot at this, then go back to business as usual. The % of people that'll be entering the levels is going to be so low, how the hell is it going to break the rest of the game?