Deleted.
Shadow Lairs
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Yeah I am all for paying for end-game. Sure.
Not for paying at a random half-assed chance at end-game. For accessories, that's fine. I even look at most UV's as just perks. But you can't randomize my chance at playing parts of the game and how much it's going to cost me. That's bogus, I'll just buy D3 and know what the hell I am paying for.
Make it a set price, whatever, I don't care. Then we can set up night's similar to raiding in other games where we use CE collectively to join in on these uber levels. Something like that would be fine, even if it's like 400ce. But no, not random. I won't keep playing if that's the extent of the end-game progression. Might as well play online slots.
Damn, and I was so excited to. To even spend money! But now I'll just be look for another game unless they change this.
Having 1 real end-game boss and then some random gamble at some rehashed ones is an insane philosophy. No idea why they think this will end well in the long run. Make keys/unlocking the gates a set price and that's fine. But otherwise this is just gonna get dumb.
Have not read the thread in its entirity, but I can tell people are not happy with the shadow keys.
Its just that I'm not ready for the Shadow Lairs, and probably will not be for a few months. I'm happy with the content I have right now, so as someone that is still building up gear to use, I can let this slide around me and just enjoy the fun that is the Punkin King.
I like me some Punkin King.
I thought perhaps the cost of keys is just to prevent lower geared knights from entering the shadow lairs, because the difference between players who have clearance to T3 and players who are good with a balance arsenal is quite immense. However I have spent 10kce on silver keys and have only unlocked one shadow key. This ratio is just unreasonable and the rewards for defeating such the tier does not nearly compensate the cost. Also what is the point of the shadow level right before the Sanctuary, the enemies drop no crowns, no heat, and no items. The level is simply here as a ce sink.
What if the shadow lairs were actually alternate dimensions? The original bosses still exist in normal levels, but there are special versions of them. Maybe those new bosses are the twisted versions of the original ones.
I really wish there was some sort of "no key, no reward" version of these bosses, just so I could simply have some fun.
Or the key was simply to get the material at the end.
I wonder what happened to the old philosophy of SK. The one you can see in the '09 trailer.
It's an escape level, no endgame content would be complete without a stupidly difficult and long level that has no purpose other than to mae you suffer and to deny you of your goal once you are within a few short minutes of getting to the ultimate goal.
Besides, if you are actually going to waste a crapload of CE to get into the shadow lairs, it really doesn't hurt to waste a crapload more in reviving.
I've got to say I've spent a ton of money on this game, yes i'm one of those players. In the past 3 months alone I'm way over a couple hundred across a couple of accounts. I've stopped playing for the most part within the past month or so as I was getting bored with the content and was only playing LD and testing out the beta stuff. I was really anticipating new content opening up and seeing the Punkin King pic yesterday and such had me itchin to get back into the swing of things and then well i see the updates for today. I got to say i'm now even more discouraged to play this game. I have no qualms about spending money, but I don't believe in needlessly throwing my money out the window for a chance to get a shadow key of an item that can't guarantee thatI won't get one. Then to see the stats and cost of getting the new gear it's absolutely defunct. I honestly myself will be waiting and well hoping this gets fixed until then OOO my money I guess will stay in my wallet until you guys get your stuff figured out.
Wishing something would pull me back to this game I love,
ShadowSgt
@Shadowsgt: Don't let content you are going to ignore distract you from other interesting content.
There is no other interesting content left (for many players). What's so hard to understand about that? It's the *only* interesting "new" content for endgame players (besides GvG which we can't play conveniently due to bad design choices / no teams) practically since the game came out. For now, SK is my favourite Screensaver + Instant messenger. And it doesn't look like anything that could change that would happen soon.
If this is the core I'm not even going to be mad. I'm just going to laugh.
Also, yeah it's great that you're "using our constructive criticism" (Suuuuure, we believe you)
But would it hurt to post every now and then, even when people aren't talking about how they're about to throw stacks of hundred-dollar-bills at you?
Erm, scratch what I said at the beginning of the post. I'm probably going to smirk for a few seconds and then say "Okay, so when are we getting the endgame content?"
Wow this new content is amazing - new levels with suped-up enemies and bosses! It looks like we're finally getting a Tier 4! And talk about those new armors. What, a Snarbolax suit!? Awesome! I'd would've liked to see some Trojan armor, but still, that's cool look'n. Too bad only a hand full of us will get to actually see any of this stuff. Oh well, it's a nice thing to dream about...I guess. :/
It'll be interesting to see what happens next.
A a fairly high CE user and buyer, with crafting costs and unbinding costs that make auctioning for income pointless as well as revival costs and entrance costs, I figured that would have been enough. Unfortunately, it seems to be that SEGA's and OOO's greed is at a all-time high, with the silver keys and now shadow keys to gain access to these boss's lair. The cost to enter just adds insult to injury. A 700CE price of a key with a very slim chance of attaining one? Sorry, but that's it, you have lost a paying player. I refuse to give you another cent; I will take my (close to $100-$120 a month) and support some other companies that do not treat their player base with such disrespect and contempt.
I will also urge every person I know in every and any community I belong to boycott all of Sega's and OOO's products in the future.
It’s a shame for a company like SEGA to lower themselves to this level. Sorry, but after supporting your company since I was 6 (16 years total) this is unforgivable, and I shall never buy a SEGA product again.
OOO I guess since you are a young company I can understand your poor ethics, contempt and disrespect for your player base. But I fear like many other new developers your course of action will lead the company to failure, You can only shaft your players so many times before everyone will cease to purchase products from you.
(TLDR) You shafted me enough, enjoy the money you have milked off of me, There will be no more.
Something I've said with every patch I've been around for: "Personally I don't see why people are complaining. Apart from the fact that people ALWAYS complain when there's a new patch released of course."
I'm just going to say that I'm a F2P player, and will always be [except from buying one starter pack at some point to show my appreciation], and am I right in saying that it's possible to get CE without micro-transactions? It's not like we can't get this content without "throwing money around", it'll just take some time and effort to do so. People can pay for their CE if they wish, but I for one will not, unless I happen to have some money spare. Call me a hypocrite.
If the prices of the shadow keys hover around what, 100k? I've not had a chance to go on, but that's what I've heard they're around [feel free to correct me, please].
Otherwise, It's 750ce for a [under calculation by another post] 2.5% chance to get one of these keys. 750ce is what, 45k a roll:
So lets say we make an average 8K a run - not including mats, drops, or tokens, that's still a 2k cr profit + however there's pretty much always CE left after a run [provided it doesn't go badly]. usually around 40ce = 2.5k cr.
so 5k onwards per run? That's 20 runs to buy one of these keys straight, if they're at the above price. Merching included, that's probably 15 easy, if not 10.
OR 9 runs to open a box, which again, is variable. could probably do it it 7. If I don't get my key, awh shucks. Imma try again. Sell whatever it is I got out of the box, If I don't use it - try again.
This gives me, as a loyal and devoted player, something worth playing for. After all, I may not be endgame yet, heck. I've only just made my first 5* item, so this update gives me something to look forward to after I reach the point of having all of the 5* gear I want, costumes 'n' all.
I saw that in the Original Lockbox patch, pretty much everyone glazed over the fact that we could get accessories via other players. Who's to say that we can't buy the new Recipes and Materials from other players? <<<< /sigh. Although, this of course means that there isn't the experience of playing the new stratums, however it does mean that you can still get the new armour sets without having to gamble for the keys. We'll see the prices and data of Nightmare Mane, and the other mats when they come out, enough said.
Although I do agree with a lot of the people here in saying that it would've been nice to see some new bosses, but I can't immediately think of any suggestions for new bosses that would fit into the Spiral Knights story. /Looks up Boss Posts.
If people would just take a minute and realize they haven't taken anything away from the game, then perhaps... Heck I don't know where that's going, but I know it isn't happening.
Oh - if you're going to leave, leave. Perhaps it'll make the forums a generally nicer place. And to you 'veteran' players, I'm surprised you haven't thought about these recent patches under a different light.
Also. @Coneycrab [#264]. I agree. This may have been described as "end-game content" but I'm just waiting for the real stuff to wait. Bring on THE SWARM!
-Keep up the good work OOO, shame there's not many people round to appreciate it, or so it seems. Best wishes, ForumBandit
Lockboxes are cheap.but you never know whats inside.And shadow lair from my eyes are a nightmare version of the clockworks(like how in a game called slient hill theres a other world and a normal world)
I think there should be another key inside the Shadow Key. And, of course, you need a key to open the Shadow Key, which can probably be found inside the heart valves of Vanaduke, or something. And in order to open Vanaduke's heart, you have to pay 10,000 CE for the Royal Jelly to sing him a haunting song.
Seriously now, I have vowed not to spend a single dime in this game some time ago now. I think it was before Lockdown - not really for the money-grabbing tendencies of OOO, but because I reckon I have better things to do with my money. All these ridiculous updates ever since have just sent a smirk to my lips, thinking of the poor souls who are still willing to pay.
And I'm actually quite fed up with everyone's adoration of OOO staff - they aren't doing any of this for us, they are in this business because they want to, it's their jobs. Or do you thank everybody who sells you something on your knees?
When I first started playing, I was kinda irked by the fact that I had to pay for certain things. However, it all balanced out; a well-spent alchemy recipe can last for a long time before you need to spend more CE to upgrade it, for example. However, these keys are really getting on my plums. I could've sworn that you could use Silver Keys more than once when they were first introduced, or was that just wishful thinking? As rare as iron lockboxes are, I don't think that you should need to spend money on a key EVERY time ($2.50 per key). Once should be plenty. And as for these Shadow keys, the AH prices are nightmarish, and the fact that they get trashed after one use is enough to make the most level-headed knight scream obscenities into the echoing depths of the Clockworks. I love Spiral Knights, and while I'm not against a little spending here and there, forcing your players to empty their real-world wallets if they want the best experience is flat-out robbery, OOO.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37950/Opinion_How_Checklists_And_InAp...
PS. I agree with the others that Shadow Lairs should be a permanent addition to SK, not just around Halloween.
wait what?
who said that shadow layers were only available during halloween?
I thought only the pumpkin guy was gone after nov 2nd.
I absolutely love this new update. I love the new revamped bosses because frankly the current bosses we have are rather old, so it will be a new challenge to conquer. The new armors are terrific and the level of difficulty will offer some uniqueness to the wearer, at least for a while. The Unknown Passage looks pretty challenging and very terrifying and the shadow lairs themselves are just marvelous...a thriller in every sense of the word! Great job Three Rings you have exceeded my expectations.
However.
Somethings might need a little bit of tweaking. Such as...
The shadow keys shouldn't be from lockboxes because there is no real 'guarantee'. A nice and straight way to buy them would be a good idea to implement. This should be introduced to the game, no questions asked.
I'm partial on this one because if the above suggestion is done, which it should be, then this suggestion has less value. Shadow keys should either last forever or last a certain amount of Uses. If the above, for whatever reason can't be implemented, please implement this.
And lastly which isn't to much of a 'necessity' mind you, but an innocent request. I think that the Clearance Level 1 ( the shadow lair with the Snarbolax ) should not need a key. No not for some cheap or dim-witted reason but so players can a have a 'taste' of what lies within the other shadow lairs.
Other than those mischievous little problems I think this update is showing potential for whats to come, because I have been to The Sanctuary and believe me it doesn't look like we are near the end of our Spiral Knight's adventure.
said it in a other topic
THEY DON'T CARE...
"you can buy them at the auction house" (or something like that) from who ever it said should be clear enough.
or this one :D
"A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different."
oh yeah people realy want all those maid headbands... the damn AH is flooded with the crap because nobody wants them and are available at CHEAP yes CHEAP prices... do you realy think there are people who uncrate a shadow key who think "what the F is this crap!! i wanted a maid headband!!!! i'm going to sell this realy underpriced because nobody wants it..." yeah nice brainstorming sherlock xD
IF people sell the key the would put the starting bid at 15 times that of CE (think this is a good ammount of crap to unbox to finaly FIND a key) because 1) they want their CE back & 2) don't have enough CE left to go down the blasted thing.
AAAAND i think they don't even read these topics...
if you guy's do SAY SOMETHING
Lol, Devs are like politicians, they promise you everything, but give you nothing. Nothing that's good anyways, and when they do give you something that is good, there's always a few strings attached that few people see... aw well, what can ye do? If this is how the world works, what can we do about it?
I want the Snarby set for use, Ice queen helm for costume, and arcane salamander armor for costume. It would look so awesome.
All in due time my friend. All in due time.
Anyone who's actually giving in to this crap is either rich or is incredibly stupid. Sadly a great amount of the latter are not active at the forums. I wish the implementation of shadow lairs could be changed.
I can understand that 3 rings needs money and that the people who usually pay alot dont have incentive to pay more, as they dont have much to spend on and the content thats allready there is kinda cheap for the amount of CE they have, making it sort of infinite for them. But this is not the way 3 rings. Offer more content and divide it by the content. This is just a rip off at the moment, which is why it's just stupid if you give into this crap.
The gamble aspect is horrible in itself. No offense 3 rings but this is the most idiotic way of mechanic i've ever seen. One shadow lair run could be on par with a full priced game. I pre ordered sonic generations for 30 bucks on Steam. Is it worth to have 1 shadow lair run worth a whole game?
THink about it for god sakes.
^much agreed. I do not see why people feel the need to waste money on a FTP game. You should never spend more in a game, than the cost of the game.
Jaoad, what makes you think they even bother with our complaints? Like I said, they're like politicians, thinking with their wallets instead of with their consciousness. And as long as there are idiots that continuously praise 3Rings with hollow appraisal and waste their money in overly expensive content, we will never get anything right.
I appreciate what Three Rings is doing, but as I said in my last post somethings need some tweaking...obviously they haven't listened. The Shadow Keys are Ridiculously rare to find and frankly the Shadow lairs do not even remotely compensate for what you lose in actually getting the key. Three Rings I have few words that will explain everything in the most crystal clear presentation: Get your heads outta the gutter. People aren't happy. And when people aren't happy people will eventually pack their bags and leave...as I am contemplating myself at the moment. And believe me people have already left for various reasons which are directly influenced by the following! And I suggest you actually pay attention to your players for once!
The lack of actual new content. Yes as I said earlier im excited to fight the Revamped bosses, but that's the thing: These bosses aren't technically new! These are just modifications and while I admit its better than nothing I know you can do better. People are tired of playing the same stuff and your deficiency of motivation is causing people to leave! Accessories update was something new, but I mean come on! The players of your game obviously don't want costumes! They want to play something new and fresh from your Game Engine oven!
Another thing which really, REALLY needs to be fixed is your Aim. You people need to listen to your audience, because guess what: without your audience even SEGA wouldn't be here. Now I also want to put this out: we the audience, the consumer, the player, or however you like to call us aren't 'High and Mighty' and don't demand much. So don't take this as disrespect. All the players are asking now is for you, Three Rings, listen to what we have to say! Is that to hard? C'mon this is dragging on to long. Enough is enough! I respect you, Three Rings, but until you change your ways don't expect me or ton of other people to be buying any of your products.
this is just overpriced and i wasnt thinking of paying but now is out of the question
Nick: A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different.
Oh there IS reason. While there of course will be people with shadow keys who didn't open a lockbox, shadow keys are single use consumables. Accessories have little reason to be destroyed, even as I'm sure there are some who have removed accessories, this is probably not extremely common, and never will 100% of all . The demand for shadow keys (i.e. for access to the new content) will always be high for a long time, whereas the demand for a drab barrel belly or maid headband, well, that's why the auction house has these suckers for cheap. New argument? <-- seriously
--- And now for some thinking ---
My Past Views and Current
I was for the binding of 4-5* items (and the later CE unbinding too). I was for keys and lockboxes and thought prices seemed fair. I was quick to jump the gun on raised crafting costs in May, was angry at OOO, but it all worked out and I kept playing. I'm against shadow keys. I want to play the awesome new content as much as the devs want us to see all their hard work. A shame that won't happen much, if at all.
Now let's lay things out without getting angry.
How to Access the New Content and Gear
Get T3 access, open a lockbox with a silver key (750CE worth of $$ in OOO's pocket regardless of where it came from), random chance at a single-use Shadow Key (so far reports say it's very low since there are so many accessories). Alternate: buy one from the AH for super high prices.
While any new items tend to go for a lot, I don't see shadow key prices dropping anytime soon.
OOO's Possible Reasons
Aside from "MONEY," why put shadow keys in a box that has a random chance at containing one? Users have reported opening dozens, even 100 lockboxes and not getting a shadow key (post update of course). Let's assume that is exaggerated, but even 1 in 10 is a very low rate. The only reasoning for this is to have a constant drain on CE; if players want the new armor, they'll need to beat the new content and so they will have to buy keys (buy CE with money). But is this maximizing profitability? In OOO/Sega's best interest, does having a very low chance of obtaining a shadow key benefit or hurt profit? OOO is hoping it doesn't, and that is the only reason to implement it this way.
Others have proposed just charging a high price for the shadow key. But going back to the initial reason, it seems OOO wants lockboxes in constant use. The assumption here is that people will grow tired of lockboxes, as they will obtain their vertical vents and whatnot and move on. What else will keep rich players opening lockboxes? The contents on the whole are worth less than 750CE. So the only way to keep it going is to put another wanted item in the lockbox, and make it rare: shadow keys. And if shadow keys are rare, end-gamers will take a while before they finish the content.
Summary of OOO goals:
- Keep lockboxes being opened in large quantities daily (profit and market availability of accessories)
- Keep end-gamers from finishing new content by putting it at the end of a difficult tier that has a high cost point of entry (we don't even know the details of obtaining the armor).
Alternatives for the Same Results
OOO combined the goals above, but I'm separating them. Have entry into the new content be consistent and free, but upon defeating the boss, you hit a Krogmo bribery meter type machine which accepts energy. The more you crank in there, the higher your chance at whatever it is the boss currently gives players (tokens/mats/recipes). This gives entry into the new content for all players, but keeps the items rare as they player still has to beat the boss, and it costs more energy to gain more rewards. To satisfy the opening of lockboxes, there can be a material required to craft/obtain the new armor in the lockbox. The item is quite useless to low-tier players as a shadow key is, but for players who want that material (and let's face it, if that's the last piece of the puzzle, they are going to go for it), they need to open lockboxes (or buy off the AH).
It's basically a different ordering of the same system, but with the clear difference being that all players with T3 access can play the content. All the hard work the devs put in will be seen by players ready for the content. They won't be getting the rewards easily or quickly though, and that buys the devs some time for additional content creation.
What to Do Now
Instead of anger, I'll wait. OOO is certainly waiting. I'm sure they have their eyes open as always, not seeing how people react on the forum, but in numbers; in energy purchases, lockboxes opened, etc. In the end, it comes down to profit, initial, mid-term, future projections. OOO will know if they made the right call on this. For the first time in SK's history, I think they really screwed up. Shadow keys won't balance out in their favor. But if they don't make changes within a month or two, we'll know that either a) shadow keys were accepted by enough people to make them profit, or b) OOO mistook the opening of lockboxes as increased interest in shadow keys but regardless, are making more money than they were before this update.
I apologize for what is likely a strange post, as I typed this over the course of a work day, waiting for animations to render, and inbetween testing the game I'm working on. We talk about this stuff every day at this development studio, and it's unclear to me how much input or testing was put into this latest addition. I helped vote SK into GDC, which subsequently won an award. Don’t make me regret it.