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Shadow Lairs

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Wed, 10/19/2011 - 02:24
#201
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
Warning!! Long read about my

Warning!! Long read about my younger days in another game.

@Happyapathy: Let me tell you the story about a game I used to play.....

Back in Twenty Ought Three, Sony Online Entertainment released an MMOFPS known as Planetside in the hopes of pulling in the shooter crowd. Development was lead by a few individuals that helped create the Starsiege/Tribes franchise, and set out to bring war zone scale combat to a player base that had never seen a battle bigger then 16x16 players (32x32 if you were really lucky). The end result was an FPS/RTS/RPG hybrid, with 3 playable factions, each possessing different styled weapons, fighting over 10 zones, with each zone capable of supporting roughly 400 players, who could all cluster f**k over one of ten bases before moving on to the next one. Not a single NPC existed in the game, and equipment and character management being handled through terminal devices. It stands out as one of the few MMOFPS games ever created, and is probably the only that was even remotely successful.

Despite its almost unknown launch, the game developed a small, yet fiercely loyal following of Shooter fans.... THE most notoriously difficult to please group at the time. Since launch, the game had gone through regular weapon rebalancing, weapon and vehicle additions, and its fair share of complaints over the high hardware demands. Every weapon balance or addition was always meet with huge resistance, and eventually turned into "this is going to kill the game!!!". Of course, the change was made, people adapted, and complaints moved on to the next update in the pipe....

This went on for about 3 years until the game designers made 2 grossly huge errors in content updates. For what its worth, the original design team had moved on to other projects shortly after the game launched, so we never knew (at the time) who made this crazy decision. Up until that point, the game revolved around a seemly impossible goal of always making every tool in the game a Rock, Paper, Scissors ordeal with the exception of being able to overwhelm a target through sheer numbers. As players developed methods and combinations that just utterly crushed the opposition, weapon behavior and damage would be modified to soften the effectiveness enough so they could have a fighting chance to push back.

That all changed when they introduced the first expansion (DLC by todays standards) called "Core Combat". This unlocked 6 micro zones with maps that simulated a large, multi-level cavern consisting of suspended rock platforms, small outposts, and a central energy core that was used to create modules that could upgrade the functionality of surface bases. It also granted players access to a unique, highly powerful set of weapons and vehicles that could only be obtained from terminals in the caverns. Their only offset was that they had limited ammo (a large battery) before needing to be discarded or replaced. Players would stock piles small amounts of these weapons in personal lockers that could be accessed from any base on the surface (a big deal since your loadout resets when you die). It had 2 huge problems. 1. The weapons dealt in AOE damage, and were initially very powerful. 1 or 2 soldiers mixed in with a small squad could hold a defensive position for as long as the devices had ammo in them. And 2. the average life span of a soldier was about 3 mintues.... (20 seconds if there were bullets in the air) giving very little opportunity to use these weapons past 3 shots unless you were already dug in on defense. If you were on offense, the AOE was also a friendly fire nightmare. The expansion also introduced the ultimate in alien explosive spamming technology... The Flail artillery unit. 2 or 3 of these units would make the outer portions of a base an instant death trap (for both friend and foe alike), which moved combat indoors in under 10 minutes of deployment (the attackers goal).

This instantly created huge balance issues when the weapons could be deployed above ground, and diverted a sizable amount of forces underground at a time when the active player count was roughly 600-700 (or 1 and a half zones) per server. Underground combat was seen as a chore, and players would only spend roughly an hour fighting over it before one side gave up to rejoin the surface battle. Several balance updates were made to scale back the power of the weapons, but the damage had already been done, and the content was there to stay. And with its $15 price tag, only a handful of dedicated soldiers found their way down there. After the first couple of months, the only reason people went down there was to retrieve flails and try to stock up a few weapons.... but at that point they were already being scaled back in power.

Some time later they released a second major update that utterly disregarded their basic design philosophy.... Battle Frame Robotics (BFR). This was added in response to player interest in having a Super tank, and/or BattleTech-esk mechs added to the game's arsenal. Initially it was thought that it was going to be a multi-manned vehicle (another core design philosophy), with heavy armor and low mobility. Instead what they developed was a highly mobile, heavily armored walker, with criminally insane firepower, and a rapidly regenerating energy shield, that could be piloted by one man in the primary unit. This was supplemented by 2 variants. One sporting more armor/shielding with a manned heavy turret operated by a gunner. And the other a lighter armored, jump-jet capable unit for higher mobility. And all of this available to players who bought the Core Combat expansion, and completed an attunement quest in the caverns. This had such a grand upset in combat that, until it was utterly beaten into a coma with the "nerf" bat, everything on the field was either a BFR or fodder for them. Over the next few months, change after change was made to nerf them so that foot soldiers could open a door without getting an express ticket to a respawn tube. Eventually they fell out of use when their mobility was heavily hampered, weapon power cut in half, shield power drastically reduced, and the highly effective tactic of "mosquito jumping" was in full use. That is where a player bails out of a scout aircraft at high altitude, lands behind the BattleFrame without being noticed, and uses a rocket launcher to destroy its shield generator. Without the shield, the unit was an easy target for tanks and man-portable explosives.

By completely ignoring the basic design philosophy that made the game possible to function, they had managed to piss of the players, cause irreparable damage to game play, and then forced to completely undermine those changes with a series of nerfs that would never address the problem they created in the first place. I continued to play for several months after to see what would happen, but I eventually moved on after, I think, 5 years of loyal game play. For anyone wondering, I moved to Guildwars at the request of a friend, and simply lost interest in Planetside rather then dramatically quit. Prior to leaving, they instituted a universal upgrade so that all content was available to everyone, and a recruits program where players could play for free with a level cap as a way to fight the dwindling player base. Last I heard, it didn't work out nearly as good as they hoped.

But despite the idiocy, I'm still keeping an eye on the development progress for Planetside2, and hoping to see that they learned from the mistakes they made in the previous game. So far it looks promising, but with SOE's track record, I'll be skeptical until I see the beta response and the pricing system they'll be using.

tl;dr

So for those of you that think optional premium content is some kind of massive insult to the players.... *enter Perry Cox* You have NO concept of it what it means to truly [screw] up a game so bad, that even the loyalist player base is starting to wonder if its self sabotage.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 02:26
#202
Lortab
Pawn, I second that (from Rant thread)

Why not keep the clearance requirements the same. BUT MAKE SILVER KEYS PURCHASABLE WITH TOKENS (as an alternative to ce).

User pros:

A. Keeps Silver Keys relatively difficult to obtain.
B. Gives users opportunity to spend their excess tokens on something other than items to sell.
C. Keeps Shadow Keys and equipment obtained through use of Shadow Keys rare.

OOO cons:

A. Using tokens means less CE bought with $.
B. Less 4/5* items unbound and sold means less CE bought with $.
C. While still forcing us to gamble to experience new content, the table limits would not be so high.

Come on OOO. Hefty prices aren't so bad. It's the fact that you're forcing us to gamble if we want to experience new content that doesn't sit well with me. At least if we could acquire the Silver Keys through diving we could choose if we want to take the chance at a Shadow Key or play it safe and buy/sell token items.

C'est la vie. You don't have to worry about losing my business, I've never paid real money to play. I sure would love it though if you'd give me a good reason to stop play League of Legends.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 02:47
#203
Happyapathy's picture
Happyapathy
This may be one case were

This may be one case were pleasing the player base is far more important then dollar signs IMO.

@Paweu

This isn't restricting the common joe from playing the hardest part of the game, it's restricting those who can't afford to waste money going through a whole bunch of iron boxes like those snotty rich kids looking for willy-wonka's golden ticket, their are plenty of talented F2P/"common joe" players who could probably handle whatever difficulty that is thrown at them that are now been forced to cough up cash to play what has up till now been free content, just because you don't pay doesn't mean your less of a skilled player then those who do.

I don't know, that comment just pisses part of me off, like saying some players/"joes" don't deserve to play parts of the game for some reason.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 02:49
#204
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
@Happyapathy: yet that

@Happyapathy: yet that snotty rich kid has 4 tickets to Paris, and needs a wing man. You only 1 person needs to pay to unlock the gate. The other 3 are either tagging along, being useful and killing something, or chipping in on the cost the of the ticket.

Your acting like your trying to escape Mexico, when all you need is a passport and friend whose willing to take you.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:00
#205
Arctic-Fern's picture
Arctic-Fern
@Happyapathy: I don't think

@Happyapathy: I don't think by common joe they meant F2P'ers, but average players who don't have CE left over and should be crafting, not buying accessories, UV's or luxury items.

Besides, said average player can get in for free if they tag along the snotty rich kid anyway, but would said snotty rich kid tag along someone who has inadequate armor? Should be decked out in anti-piercing 5* first to get into the entry level...

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:03
#206
Romasanta's picture
Romasanta
My previous statement might still stand, but I hope it doesn't.

My head has cooled and after much thought, I have come to the conclusions that I unfairly blamed Three Rings for the decision to be money-grubby without stopping to consider that it may have been Sega's fault, and that if keys are common enough that they be purchased for around the price of a key, or perhaps a bit higher, my respect will be won back.

The potential ramifications of the element of chance involved in the acquisition of keys combined with the fact that either Three Rings or Sega decided to be money-grubby and decided to charge us real money to enter the new boss strata, are the source of all the player rage. If one or the other were removed, the amount of hate that Three Rings is feeling would be significantly lowered, but since it is unlikely that the decision to be money-grubbers will be reversed, the other source of hate will need to be eliminated.

I sincerely hope that whoever made these seemingly bad decisions has a good idea of what they were doing, because this coming update could be potentially result in a great deal of player resentment, alienation, and distrust.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:14
#207
Ufana
Starlinvf wrote:So for those

Starlinvf wrote:
So for those of you that think optional premium content is some kind of massive insult to the players.... *enter Perry Cox* You have NO concept of it what it means to truly [screw] up a game so bad, that even the loyalist player base is starting to wonder if its self sabotage.

"Loyalist Player Base"? Present! ;) And slowly migrating from a
"Lol, look at them complaining about the update before it's out again! It'll be fine."-Standpoint
to a somewhat greyish:
"Uhm... this sort of looks like it theoretically really could get quite ugly...maybe some preemptive worst-case-scenario-feedback isn't such a bad idea in this case."

I don't usually waste my "This is my first pre-update-whining"-card lightly, but I've really been looking forward to an update that would make it interesting again to do runs on a regular basis for "the old gang"... and this one could at this point either turn out to be that update or mean it won't come (for a long time or ever).

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:28
#208
Coneykrab's picture
Coneykrab
Sorry Guys

I jinxed it when I openly stated my excitement towards finding a game that doesn't have moneygrubs for devs.

My Main Problems:
Shadow Keys aren't a 100%
The new areas are just rehashes
You get 1 shadow token per completed run... but you need 50 to get the worst armor. Umad?

Suggestions:
Allow us to also buy Shadow Keys. The guarantee will please some players
Only make the boss floor, or if you must, also the first floor (but then shorten the areas to two floors! brilliant! ... D:)
Give the person who uses the key SOMETHING so they feel like it's worth it even if their group doesn't have much of a chance.
I like the idea of rare silver key drops, or maybe add them to the prize wheel for shadow areas?
Maybe there could be a .1% chance of getting a shadow key drop in the harder areas.

The content we've wanted for ages is not the right place to dance on the line, OOO.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:39
#209
Memento's picture
Memento
Economically talking

There will be much more CE demand. Expect CE prices to skyrocket.
And most of us won't ever see this part of the game, which is saddening.
Also, this will lead to problems threerings tried to avoid for the whole time: People will likely give lifts to shadow lairs for CE.

Think through things Threerings..

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:41
#210
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
Ultimately I have no problem

Ultimately I have no problem with negative feedback on issues, just as long as you try to approach the issue from as many view points as possible. But a lot of complaints end up amounting to:

A. Not liking its relationship to keys
B. Not being able to access high-end premium content because its too expensive
C. It should be cheaper because I don't want to spend 750CE on a box that might not have what I want.
D. The rewards are too difficult to gain, and therefore not worth perusing

Will I take a shot at getting the new armors? You bet your ass.
Will I blow all my money getting keys to do runs? It all depends on how long my attention span holds out.
Will I regret trying? Only if I can't get rid of surplus of maid headbands I'm sure to end up with... but otherwise doubtful.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:42
#211
Madadder's picture
Madadder
what SK needs are more

what SK needs are more interchangeable antimatter keys

my evil plan
now all gates in the arcade will have a special key requiring 80 energy to buy!muhaahahahaha, its so genius, it will force the playerbase to spend more CE

well that was a complete dramatization but don't you all feel better that the new content won't affect normal gameplay that we have been doing up until now?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:42
#212
Mukei's picture
Mukei
@Coneykrab: You get 1 shadow

@Coneykrab:

You get 1 shadow token per completed run... but you need 50 to get the worst armor. Umad?

Where did you get that from? Sad thing is I almost believed it :3 Probably next update haha.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 03:57
#213
Dottor-Troione's picture
Dottor-Troione
If I got it, the access gate

If I got it, the access gate to Shadow Liars will be located at Clockwork Terminal D23. Am I right?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 04:08
#214
Kimahso's picture
Kimahso
Wow too expensive. $2.50 from

Wow too expensive. $2.50 from your pocket every time you take a chance at finding the Shadow Key and repeating this if you don't find it? OOO is awesome and all and I know that they need profite from this awesome game, but this is too much. They could at least make you pay 300 CE every time you enter or something. :/ If we team up together and avoid buying CE/lockboxes then OOO will have to resort to decreasing the price of these rare shadow keys.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 04:19
#215
Ufana
B. Not being able to access


B. Not being able to access high-end premium content because its too expensive

What I've seen of the update so far does not look like "high-end premium content". It is "finally endgame players can enjoy runs again for a while, great, we have been waiting for this!"-content. Not "Premium" but practically "the only interesting" content for those players. I don't really feel motivated to grind a week for one hour of interesting gameplay and neighter am I interested in paying 5$ for every hour of interesting gameplay... but it looks like this update is almost in danger to turn out like that.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 05:00
#216
Molwar's picture
Molwar
My opinion

Well I will thrown in my opinion in there too.

Before I started playing SK, I haven't played an MMO in 2 years, reason for that is that I didn't have 40hr+ a week to waste on grinding and leveling and doing stupid quest that are barely worth the time. I tried SK and realised, hey this I can play casually and pretty much everything in game is accessible to anyone, no just 1/100000 random lucky player that gets a super rare godly drop.

They added new content, BN, Lockdown. I've never been a big pvp fan, but tried those anyways and really loved them, and i'm even fairly good at it too.

Now they add those lockbox, I was like cool, chance to customize our knights and then see that you need to drop 750CE for a random accessory that you most likely do not want and even cannot trade at a fair price to get the accessory that you want. Right now ppl are better off buying them for cheaper then 750CE in the AH AND they get the accessory that they want. Make sense? Not one bit.

I'm a pay to play player, I put 20$ a month into the game to encourage it and have new stuff develop and honestly I can barely afford to buy 1-2 silver keys with that 20$ a month because you know what THERE IS other things in game more fun and more worthwhile to use my CE with. If that means I can't access T4 contents, then sucks to be me because I will certainly not pay more money every month when I can buy games that will stay on my computer for free forever and not cost me anything anymore.

OOO time to gather your peeps into a meeting and revise this because this game has a lot of potential, but it's still young and there is a LOT of other MMO to compete with and that ppl can go play instead. Think further then 2-4 weeks, you have to think long run, sell the Silver Key cheaper and you will sell a LOT more. Quantity vs Quality and in the long run you will make more money because you will have a loyal fan base community.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 04:43
#217
Mbcscp's picture
Mbcscp
my 2cents worth obtain a

my 2cents worth

obtain a shadow key via lockbox is not an issue for me if you drop the price of silver keys to 100-150CE

upon using the shadow key i should have access to this new content for say 24hrs

this to me is like LD or BN ... doesnt interest me and will interest me less now

current setup will mean only a handful of ppl can access the content .... totally pointless update

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 04:53
#218
Kickthebucket's picture
Kickthebucket
My suggestion

well i was planning to post this in the suggestion forum but think this place would do fine. i allready stated somewhere i still think it's wrong to expect players to "pay" for new (recycled actualy) content...

so here's my idea;

make move the boss lvl's up a tier (snarby = T2, RT T3, LV special clearence wich i'll get to) and make them minibosses (here it goes, so bare with me)

do this in the same gate as the original boss, but instead of giving them a whole stratum give them the last lvl (hence mini-boss) and maybe you can do something like last lvl from each second stratum (Tier 2/Tier 3/special Tier) let's name these the shadow lvl's...
only way to get into these lvl's is when you defeated the original boss (recon module is your key for this) when defeating the boss you'll get something like a dark Frumious Fang, dark Bark Module, etc.

by collecting these you get clearence to the next tiers miniboss (1 time is enough to get clearence to the next tiers miniboss) so let's say when you dedeated vanaduke you get to the core and they just found out there's a weird gate down the hatch from vanaduke (special Tier)
With the proof you are up for the task (recon modules and the dark tokens or maybe dark modules even) they grant you acces to this gate and ONLY when bringing this proof.
If you can find yourself finaly defeating vanaduke once and for all, you find proof (ok now i'm just trying to make a bit off sence haha) that there's a gate to some unstable lvl's "around" the core (and instead of taking an elevator this works with gates or something) so you can still do stuff with the core) and again with the proof in you pocket the higher ups give you (the elite members of the spiral order) the task to delve trough these unpredictable lvls (when i say unpredictable i do mean UNpredictable) where you don't know what danger you'll get into the next gate you open (random theme's)
So you'll have to do with what you got (and your team needs to come ready for everything wich again gives everybody their chance to shine) and at the end you'll get the new boss :D

(ok to all who read my crap congrats, to all who didn't read this also congrats hahaha)

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 05:52
#219
Redmania's picture
Redmania
I like the purchasable with

I like the purchasable with tokens idea.
Also if the key is going to be 750 for a group 4... can we make it 750/4= 188CE and require each person to have one to get in?

I've soloed all the content lately and I would love to continue doing so.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 06:18
#220
Starlinvf's picture
Starlinvf
@Redmania: That wouldn't make

@Redmania: That wouldn't make sense since it works exactly like an energy gate, except it consumes an item instead of energy. Also, 750CE doesn't accurately reflect its projected value on the market. Assuming its gets sold by Boost at some point, it'll likely be at least 1500CE per key, or 20-30 Almirian seals (considering the T3 clearance needed to get S1 clearance).

If people are gonna split the cost, it'll most likely be repaying whoever opens the gate. While not secure, its far less convoluted then building a new UI routine or making it party button style when 1 or more people don't actually have a physical key on them. Which is ironic, since you would end up trading a key to someone anyway if it was using a 4-key unlock setup. It also reinforces the idea that you can trust your party. If can't expect someone in your party to pay you back, they have no business joining you on one of these runs.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 06:21
#221
Chizi's picture
Chizi
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/microtransactions

please OOO, watch this, at least watch start at 7:00 :T

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 06:27
#222
Redmania's picture
Redmania
"If people are gonna split

"If people are gonna split the cost, it'll most likely be repaying whoever opens the gate."

This is the point. And in no way am I going to share the key with randoms. Guild ONLY.
It's just like buying a 4-pack of chips when you really only want one for yourself. I'd like the option to solo the content, maybe not now, but eventually without it costing an arm, a leg and my pancreas.

An I'd prefer the idea of 20-30 Almirian Seals or it being sold by some NPC over this lottery system.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 06:38
#223
Molwar's picture
Molwar
@Chizi Awesome video, this

@Chizi
Awesome video, this definitely was done by someone who knows about marketing and how to do things good for the long run.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 07:10
#224
Crown-Hogs-Rock's picture
Crown-Hogs-Rock
Why not...

Why not split the shadow keys for each boss?
A key for Snarby's lair,
A key for The Ice Queen's lair,
and so on.

Make them only have one use, and make them cost boss tokens from their weaker counterparts. As they are token items, they'll be bound to you.

Lockboxs should still drop keys, but they should have more than 1 use, (around 3-5 maybe?) and be able to open the elevators to ALL of the lairs, and be tradeable.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:02
#225
Bluescreenofdeath's picture
Bluescreenofdeath
"To prevent unnecessary

"To prevent unnecessary casualties, Spiral HQ has instituted a clearance requirement for accessing the more unstable Shadow Lairs."

Throwing real money at clearance doesn't equate to being ready for this content. I would be cool with some sort of merit based requirement like the spiral warden for tier access. I would also be cool with buying DLC, but I am really not loving this purchase a one time use key thing. I predict a pandemic of rage quitting...

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:08
#226
Nekroskoma's picture
Nekroskoma
i want to say something about

i want to say something about how terrible an idea this and blah blah blah

theres already five pages doing that

either way, i was hoping for new content, but not like this

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:28
#227
Happyapathy's picture
Happyapathy
Hello Devs? Anybody home?

Considering how the love died at about post #19, I think a comment from a dev/admin about this issue is overdue, silence is the worst answer to all this outrage.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:29
#228
Cobrakai
"1. Lockboxes - I think the

"1. Lockboxes - I think the current lockbox set-up needs a huge revision. Currently we only have 1 type of box which could contain any 1 of 250+ items.
I think this is way too large of a random selection for 1 item. If I am a tier 3 player and I am aiming for a shadow key and I spend 750 CE to open a box I should not have any chance at all of getting somthing terrible like a maid headband. Boxes need to be divided into tiers with different keys for each tier.

Tier 1 - Bronze Lockbox - requires basic key 250 CE

can contain:

any current accessory except for: pipes , maedate, glasses, vertical vents, bomb bandoliers, sideblades, auras, wolver tails,

no shadow keys

Tier 2 - Iron Lockbox - requires silver key 600 CE

Any accessory currently available . small chance of shadow key

tier 3 - Shadow Steel Lockbox - requires Divine key 900 CE

only accessories contained are: pipes , maedate, glasses, vertical vents, bomb bandoliers, sideblades, auras, wolver tails,

medium chance of shadow key

this is just a really rough draft I came up with while i'm typing this out but I'm sure all you can understand the value of a tier system

2 - Accessories - Looking at these new armor sets I'm sure 90% of the accessories wont look good on them at all. Instead of having RNG as to which color we get there should be an alchemy machine which we can change an accessory to any color we want. ( we need some sort of scrap metal / bronze bolt material sink) An alchemy machine would also allow them to introduce new colors when new sets are released instead of adding more RNG to lockboxes.

3 - Shadow keys - 1 time use just isn't acceptable. You could enter it and lose your internet for 5 minutes and lose your chance to run the levels.
instead of 1 key for 4 people I think you should get something like 2 shadow gems that when used give 24 hour access. so you could bring along 1 friend and both have 24 hour access.

just my random thoughts"

^ This post is constructive and ripe with good ideas.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 13:24
#229
Neozeru's picture
Neozeru
..Ugh, really?

"A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different."

I was going to voice my opinion among the vary, but after Nick said that, my drive plummeted.

Oh well. Auction House time once again.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:45
#230
Eclecicmessiah
@ Nick Who cares if the

@ Nick

Who cares if the player that sports the accessory opened the box it was in? IT was opened at some point regardless. I can think of many reasons why your comparison of shadow keys to accessories is null, but like others, I have lost the drive to type it all out. Do the right thing here. Gambling is illegal at 13.

Electricmessiah

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 09:15
#231
Happyapathy's picture
Happyapathy
the reason?

@Nick

"A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different."

Did you even spend a second to think about why this is happening or did you just post that thinking it sounded good at the time?

The reason that is happening is because their wearing accessories sold by those poor sods who DID pay to open the lockbox and are forced in desperation to sell them often FAR FAR below the CE value of the key just to recoup some of their loses.

The market for accessories is already dying, you might say "no, there are 12 pages of them in the AH", a closer look will show you it's mostly made up of drab quality accessories that NO ONE WANTS TO BUY, the few accessories that are getting sold are often been bought for below 50k, the baseline profit needed to at least break even with the CE value of a key, I have two accessories which I actually use, both of which I bought for 30k, and their not drab quality either (regal and heavy). Give it a week or two and I guarantee you the accessory section of the market will be dead.

Here's another bright assessment that can be derived from the first one:

"There are lots of lockboxes available on the market so players should have plenty of chances to get a shadow key"

That's because NO ONE IS OPENING THEM, shouldn't the fact that there are 20 pages of lockboxes going for 2k each at the AH and still not selling be a sign that something is broken? Lockboxes are now worthless, period.

So many issues could be solved just be lowering the silver key price, players would be happier AND developers would make more money cause people would actually be willing to spend money, is that too hard to understand?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 09:34
#232
Kickthebucket's picture
Kickthebucket
OOO needs to sell SK to valve

OOO needs to sell SK to valve who nailed the "making money with content" stuff or hire the guy from PA who made the video Chizi posted :D

Happyapathy i agree and disagree, but changing it makes it just look like they copy valve (but seeing they ARE working toghetter and you CAN buy CE with you steam wallet -> wich i do yes) make people able to choose... make boxes that let's make a simple TF2 -> SK conversion they could make the box

box 1
dusker armor
fireburst brandish
Long Feather
Canteen
Wings

box2
Gunslinger Sash
Needle Shot
Flower
Spike Mohawk
Halo

etc.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 09:29
#233
Moogzor's picture
Moogzor
I was super excited for this;

I was super excited for this; after reading into it a little though..i'm very disappointed. As a mostly solo player not only does the latest content not seem balanced at all for one person parties (aside from the automatic hp scaling, the mechanics are clearly more party based), the way this is setup makes its a ridiculous gamble..i'd be totally fine with there being some super high one off entry fee that one could work toward to gain access for example...but this system just..ugh, i doubt i'll ever experience it.

Give us something to work toward, to earn, something to keep us engaged and PLAYING your game. Not a dumb gamble thats just going to frustrate people, thats such a [meaniehead] move and a really cheap way to force people into buying CE

Even from a monetary standpoint i think this is a bad move..who's REALLY going to want to gamble their hard earned money away for a chance to play some probably very broken content in an ONLINE environment? not me. You'd be much better off with a one off key, people would have a real incentive to get some CE then..either by playing more or purchasing it

TLDR gambling is dumb, keys are dumb, this system is dumb - they'd make MORE money by not being [jerks], which is the funny thing

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 09:32
#234
Juances's picture
Juances
About nick's phrase

Accesories=permanent, last forever
Keys = one use
That difference is so obvious.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 10:02
#235
Nighty-Mx's picture
Nighty-Mx
and then Devs havent posted a

and then Devs havent posted a word defending their position about Shadowkey...

whats the point to make new content but limit it with shadow key that appear randomly on lockboxes? have a small poblation of players who can experience the new content? ok but how much players would do this? who is really willing to spent at least 50 dls to get a single shadow key?? well gamblers maybe.

seriously.. we dont come here to make gambling, well at least not at this point to open boxes until get a key to reach new area that maybe could be fun for a while, until you do a really new content. i know that luck and prize like this are part of MMO to get unique weapons, unique items, etc. but limit the access to new areas trought luck? i would prefer to have certain requeriment instead open and open boxes until a shadow key appear from the big pile of head maid bands. if really need money why not just give as DLC??? or another key with a expensive price???

OOO do you think this its right? look at this thread how people its complaining and add too the shadow key rant thread. first 19 posts "ok post" then the other post just than complains. OOO Those complains dont have meaning to you? because not only F2P are talking. ALSO YOUR LOYALS CUSTOMERS

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 10:39
#236
Pookycakes's picture
Pookycakes
Alternative Viable System for

Alternative Viable System for Shadow Lair - Warning: Abominable Wall of Text Inside

-> http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/29934

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 10:05
#237
Ezduzitt's picture
Ezduzitt
As someone who has spent

As someone who has spent quite a bit of CE opening up lockboxes (41k CE) I highly doubt we will see a Shadow Key drop within the first week of the new update. As far as rare items I've only obtained 2 Ghostly Aura's while the others have been unwanted and sold at a fraction of the cost of a key. The drop rates will probably be awful for these Shadow Keys, especially with the awful drop rates in the game currently.

I knew I'd be opening them up at a loss, but the amount of garbage accessories that no one wanted was ridiculous. Lockboxes went from being 90k CR in AH to <2k CR in a few days, that should tell you something. The Shadow Keys will only drive up CE prices in the market, less people will be opening lockboxes due to CE costing more and the already outrageous price of Silver Keys. This whole system is not cost effective by any means.

As for "more people are wearing accessories", yes, that's because you can buy 3/4 of them for about 5k CR as opposed to 750 CE of opening one. When a player takes into account how many Lockboxes they opened up to get that Shadow Key, the first on the market will be an exorbitant amount. It wouldn't even be worth using due to it's one time use.

Not to mention this is new content that people don't have access to, who's to say they will actually be successful in completing these depths? I know for a fact Darkfire FSC was a PITA and wasn't a walk in the park for anyone. The other depths were fun and just took some minor adjustments to get used to, but again not everyone will be able to play and adapt to the depths due to these key shenanigans. Players still need that trial and error experience to see what works and what doesn't and some may get one chance or no chance at all for this content due to the rates these items come out of boxes, the cost of silver keys and the inevitable rise of CE prices due to it.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 10:29
#238
Klotz
oooooohkay.... Please tell me

oooooohkay....

Please tell me that I misunderstood the newsletter.

I'm supposed to...
1) get a Lockbox from the RANDOM prize wheel or pay ~1.5k cr for it
2) get a Lockbox unlock key for 750CE or buy one from AH
3) open a Lockbox in order to have a RANDOM CHANCE to get another key which allows me to access the special levels A SINGLE TIME
4) repeat 1) to 4) several times in order to be able to reach the new T3 areas (where we spend further CE on rezzing)
..?

I would laugh if today was April fool's Day, but this is just ridiculous.
I'm not going to pay for a RANDOM chance.
If you want our money, let us buy the keys directly. Not great at all, but at least fair comapred to what you're up to.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 11:08
#239
Eltia's picture
Eltia
20 lockboxes and no shadow key

Just saw that in Haven 1. Is this working correctly?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 11:10
#240
Klotz
So my theory is confirmed...

So my theory is confirmed... sadly.

I should take a break from this game until they fix this.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 11:11
#241
Zikey's picture
Zikey
Apprarently the developers

Apprarently the developers did pay so well attention to our posts that they released it faster because we were so enthusiasm about it and couldn't wait any longer...

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 11:35
#242
Ufana
This update feels more and

This update feels more and more like a slap in the face. I don't feel like ever spending money on this game again at the moment, no matter what I'd get for it. And I'm not at all sure that will have changed by the time I run out of ce ;)

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 11:35
#243
Niichi's picture
Niichi
The main thing that bothers

The main thing that bothers me is the totally random chance involved. I'd probably pay the high prices involved if I was guaranteed a key upon payment of the energy.

Thu, 10/20/2011 - 06:03
#244
Deruku's picture
Deruku
Pay to Gamble

While this may not be as disappointing as the Accessory update, I'm nevertheless rather surprised just how sometimes OOO is now using its paying system to take advantage at player's gambling and luck mechanics just to restrict certain areas and or things in the game which are already hard to obtain.

I'm all in for gambling and randomness since it's pretty much a solid formula for any MMO to have items, equips, stuff, etc to be obtained by luck. However, shoving in the pay to play service and converting it more to a "Pay to gamble" service is pretty much what's derailing this game from what it was before. Yes, OOO needs to make money somehow. The ideas that OOO are thinking out aren't bad at all, but regardless, first, this is going a bit too far specially considering it's not really "new content" that ended up being "end game", and second this idea should not separate the community into "elitists with cash - Whiners with cash - newbs/whiners who are poor, etc. etc.".

So with these shadow keys. The idea behind it is:

Pay OOO or "work your way without money" or via AH to get a chance on old, but harder bosses, for a chance to win against said bosses if you're very good, for a chance to obtain certain 5* materials/recipes?/gear that by chance it's something you want/need.

Haters gonna hate, and OOO "lovers" gonna troll, but I don't think this is worth my cash or time. I may have an income but I'm no expert at the game and I don't think I want to be such an "elitist" if this is what it takes. You want that awesome snarby gear? Hope you make it in the first run.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 12:55
#245
Bioxide's picture
Bioxide
I am expecting some new stuff

I am expecting some new stuff for Guild Hall, for example - AH npc. But developers decided to make other things. I am so sad =\ *sigh*
So many things was done in this new patch... but we all waiting something different, something really important, not just the temporary masks and new keys.
BTW, armor with shadow UVs will became even more expensive. Long live the balance!

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 14:08
#246
Ilovehedgehogs's picture
Ilovehedgehogs
@Nick "A significantly

@Nick

"A significantly greater number of players are currently sporting accessories than have ever actually opened a lockbox. There is no reason that Shadow Keys will be any different."

@Juances

"About nick's phrase

Accesories=permanent, last forever
Keys = one use
That difference is so obvious."

.
.
.
Things like this make me think... Being a Lead Designer nowadays seems to be quite easier than I supposed. :D

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 14:30
#247
Sick's picture
Sick
Ohhey

Dungeon Defenders opens today

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 14:33
#248
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums
I was always hoping we'd get

I was always hoping we'd get some content like the core, which had been a WIP since the closed beta days, or something that could flesh out the world and the lore a little more. All we've gotten at most are a few written modules in dungeons and that's about it.

I'm also of the opinion that Sega may be the ones pushing for profit. I really hope that changes soon because it seems they're pushing for anything except game improvements. I think the game needs a few fixes before they start throwing in all this unnecessary, costly content.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 18:49
#249
Axellon's picture
Axellon
Do not like this direction.

THe whole "Pay to gamble" thing upsets me greatly.
I can understand there being special "shadow keys" to open the lair. What I can't understand is them not being for sale from a NPC. Dammit, OOO, you JUST ESTABLISHED that you buy keys from Boost. And now you expect players to use keys to find other keys? This is just stupid.

I can honestly say that I was planning to spend money on this game. Now I'm not. Not until I see evidence that this design philosophy is changing. Can't we go back to the old days, before the "play to gamble" stuff picked up? When the only major problem was the current CE to Crown price on the market? Please OOO?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 19:07
#250
Krystianna's picture
Krystianna
It's funny, I remember when

It's funny, I remember when the accessory patch thinking. "Random chance for really expensive keys? Well... at least they're just accessories, it's not like it's anything important."

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