Spiral Knights - Possible changes to dual special damage weapons

Possible changes to dual special damage weapons

333 replies [Last post]

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 09:23

#101

Crown-Hogs-Rock

Just Slapping this here.

Why not just make the Silversix/Argent and Blackhawk/Sentenza fire only the Giant Bullet/Eagle from the charge attack? For pure elemental/shadow damage.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 11:55

#102

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

I'm kinda happy and bummed about this.

AP: I got 2 Elite Trueshots, mainly for FSC so I can DPS everything faster/better, including Trojans. I also got this since I have a decent enough ASI if I needed to attack Devilites with it. I'm kinda bummed here, it's what kept me using my AP. Well, Ultra/Max on my AP is good I guess...

Sentenza: YES. YES. YES. YES. YES.

RSS: Kinda bummed about this as well, even though I don't own one [yet]. I already see people saying "No", and am afraid this would get into [sadly] yet aboter, rant by someone.

My Opinions: Silversix/AP- Kimda bummed, I don't really have a mobile piercing gun now, but I guess that damage boost can make upfor it. (No higher then medium, I'd assume). Maybe add a fiend bonus in there? Maybe a low? Don't know, whatever works.

Blackhawk/Sentenza- Really happy about this, can't wait to see it.

Sun Shards/RSS- I guess I'll have to go with the crowd and say no, but I'd be fine with this, being I'm not a bomber nor have one yet.

So in the end, IMO: AP: Please no, I'd have to get a new fiend gun or something of the sort. I'm guessing it will be Med Undead, and if there is a fiend bonus, Low Fiend? :3

Sentenza: Yes all the way, we actually got a pretty darn decent shadow gun now. :D

RSS: I'm fine either way.

Whatever works OOO, keep up the great work!

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 12:04

#103

Xylka-Mkii

YES/bow nickTHANK YOU SO

Edit: Im a little late to the party arent I? (^_^;
EDIT AGAIN: Also If you're gonna change this, I recommend a pure piercing Antigua line weapon. So we would have 2 choices, much like the Wolver armor. Just a thought but that way everyone would be happeh with a new piercing gun :D
YES
/bow nick

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Anything in the OP is perfect

+9000.1
You got my support! Plus maybe ill start crafting an Argent Peacemaker just for this! ^-^

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 12:22

#104

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

+1 on your idea of a Pure Piercing Antigua gun Xylka, some have suggest that before but it makes it reasonable now.

/thank OOO

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 12:23

#105

Bluescreenofdeath

Pure piercing AP would be

Pure piercing AP would be great. All the other piercing guns make you hold still to fire & it would make the AP an even better Duke buster.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 13:54

#106

Rangerwillx

It'd be cool.

I also would like a pure piercing Antigua line, but I doubt they'd put it in.
For fiends and vana just use blitz needle.. 50x better.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 16:59

#107

Guardianknight

Guardianknight gives OP a +1

I'd love the changes to the Antigua lines....
...I guess i'll have to find a new place for my dust.

فقط الجارديان فارس

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 17:03

#108

Rangerwillx

Wheee I was right.

I had a hunch that was arabic.. it is. Should have known it was your sig as well.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 17:09

#109

Lan-The-Wizard

So nick, ever think about an

So nick, ever think about an ice gun? There's only one and ice can work with piercing .

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 17:13

#110

Rangerwillx

HEY!

HEY, don't insult the other one! MY gun.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 21:40

#111

Dawnstrike

Why have them crit + bonus

Why have them crit + bonus damage on something they already crit? For instance, if AP were pure pierce with bonus to undead, then it would be a 3/6 gun rather than a 2/6 gun as it is now, or a 1/6 + 1/6 gun with elemental+undead. Same with RSS - if it's elemental +fiends, then it's a good 3/6 bomb and fills a niche (damage elemental) that hasn't been useful until now.

As it is, the only place you see a silversix/AP is in FSC. If you change it as you suggest, then it'll be used in FSC and graveyards. A high-clip piercing gun (currently blitz, which is very immobile, and callahan, which is only a two-shotter) would be useful all-around. Another shadow gun in the blackhawk line, though of limited use because of the way shadow-susceptible enemies dodge, would still be better than a shadow/pierce. Plus, there are already several good elemental guns (multiple alchemers, polaris) without a good versatile piercing gun.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 22:47

#112

Espeonage

"For instance, if AP were

"For instance, if AP were pure pierce with bonus to undead, then it would be a 3/6 gun rather than a 2/6 gun as it is now, or a 1/6 + 1/6 gun with elemental+undead."

Whoa, hold on there. Damage Bonus =/= "crit" damage, unless it were DB Maximum or so. But a weapon would never have such an attribute naturally, and I'm assuming the two Antiguas will have a DB Med/High. Additionally, these are also guns, so they're going to benefit less from a Damage Bonus that does not accentuate a strength.
Given the Antigua series' comparatively lower damage, the re-addition of the proposed bonuses would help to boost an intended advantage.

Wed, 11/23/2011 - 23:17

#113

No-Thanks

Zelda

wow wth did i miss in the arsenal section

what exactly will happen to the nova driver and the umbra driver? the dmg bonus on guns is kinda overwhelming and ricochets arent always reliable. in fact id prefer charging the newly overpowered guns instead of firing my alchemers in situations where ricochets are rather applicable. the 6 shot clip has always been tempting to begin with

RSS will be fine, but im still hoping for u to give big angry bomb some more attention(not that its dual dmg, but i can tell from the look on its face, its not happy, its mad. nitronome is happy)

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 06:42

#114

Draco-Draco

Dont!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please dont change the silversix's and AP into pure elemental.. i like it as it is :P but the undead dmg bonus would be good

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 07:28

#115

Rangerwillx

@Draco-Draco

..why? I imagine you want it for a single gun to take into FSC, well it wouldn't change that much.
At all. Maybe like a 15-20 damage decrease. Big deal... of another 3 clips?
Not that big a deal. You'll kill zombies with it so much faster, it's not even funny. You'd save time in FSC with this gun!

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 10:38

#116

Bigfootm

What Dark Ritual?

@Rangerwill

I use a Blitz Needle 99% of the time at Duke in Phases 3 and 5, only use an AP if I'm the only one alive (And I still use Blitz then alot.) or we don't have a Dhivermist (And I STILL use my blitz. :P). I wanted a Piercing Antigua Line specifically for Devilites, if you know what I mean. They arn't good enough to dodge my shots. :3

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 15:16

#117

Carthiah

Balance Issues?

Argent Peacemaker alchemy line:
I too would love to see a pure piercing version of the Antigua. My first thought was to make the Argent Peacemaker a pure piercing gun, with an undead damage boost. This would open the gun up slightly in terms of its usage, while still making it a type of niche-filling weapon. Dedicated gunners would have very little use of a piercing gun with an undead damage bonus, whereas I'd imagine swordsmen may find a little more use for it. Once again, that was my first thought, and I could be very wrong.

Sentenza alchemy line:
Sentenza may benefit as a pure shadow-type gun. My only concern is that the Sentenza would vastly overshadow the rest of the game's pure shadow guns. Unless the damage was very finely balanced, it could easily overpower the Umbra Driver line, due to it's six-shot clip, high firing rate, and potentially useful charge attack (a rarity with guns; this statement may only apply if the proposed charge attack change is accepted). If the two guns were tuned to do the same damage over the same period of time (not on a clip basis - the firing speed will deplete one clip faster than another, giving the faster-per-clip gun a higher dps and better defensive properties in the form of shielding), then it could come down to personal preference and play style, which would be a nice change of pace when choosing a shadow-type gun.

(Radiant) Sun Shards:
I know little about practically using the RSS, but as it stands, they do not seem at all like a niche weapon. Bombers of all shapes and sizes seem to love the RSS, and they are also a very popular bomb, despite being 4*. Given my knowledge on the subject, I'd suggest leaving this weapon alone.

In conclusion, I think you should consider carefully the consequences of changing weapons which are considered to be 'niche' weapons. If these weapons are not balanced, then they will either dominate the field in their new role, or they will fade into the background as even less-used weapons. Either way, the consequence of not balancing these weapons very finely after the change will result in the "loss" of a weapon from the commonly-used arsenal as it now stands, which seems to be a waste.

PS: I also see little use in spicing up weapons which currently see a fair amount of use (even in a niche setting) when there are a large number of weapons which see almost no use at all (Big Angry Bomb, Biohazard, Sudaruska, Triglav, etc, etc, etc..) which could use rebalancing.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 15:25

#118

Juances

now that i think about it

All I'm gonna say is that the original antigua starts with pierce, it'd be stupid if both upgrades go on opposite directions from this, unless they add a third one.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 15:45

#119

Gfjmember

Piercing Antigua Line

All I will say is that the Antigua guns are currently the only piercing guns which allow you to move and shoot, so (as I think many here agree with) we'd much appreciate a pure piercing Antigua line as well.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 17:48

#120

Ayecon

@Chris ... before slandering

@Chris

... before slandering others and getting off on your pretentious attitude, you really should try and read closer. I did not argue about the changes making them more or less powerful than its current dual type, I argued that the +monster type bonus will not make the gun better than another elemental gun out there. For you to go about telling me how elemental damage works is just plain silly.

Since you need the simple explanation of my post: New AP < current elemental weapons (NOT new AP < old AP). I like dual type with +medium gun damage or changed charge effect instead.

So much fail.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 19:16

#121

The-Rawrcake

Woot woot changes sound for

Woot woot changes sound for the better!

Imo: get rid of the AP / Sentenza gremlin / undead bonus to reduce how powerful it is.

This way, it won't cloud over the alchemers so much - AP/sent is for single target, alchemer split bullet jumpiness for aoe.

Thu, 11/24/2011 - 21:53

#122

Obsidious

My thoughts

I really like the idea of the AP and senteza lines being given pure special damage. Even though I don't use them, I know a couple of friends who would if they didn't have the split damage. My only concern, as a stated by one other, is that they might overshadow other pure damage guns like the Shadow Alchemer and so on. But that's should be fixable by adjusting the damage, speed and charge parameters as seen fit.

And like everyone else, I do agree that RSS should either be kept as it is, or shifted to pure elemental. I haven't played with it much even though I'm a bomber (Just crafted it), but I can clearly see it being incredibly helpful against turrets; and probably as a much better option for dedicated bombers too. All considering a well placed bomb can hit multiple turrets at a distance, since turrets don't move (And you can't herd them into a Nitronome blast). Because of that, having it pure elemental seems a really good idea, as that at least seems to be one of primary reasons it's been used. Granted, I understand that the RSS seems to have been originally developed for Fiends, but there no harm in adjusting it for turret mayhem.

Also, the pure elemental damage suits the shard discharge animation the best.

Since it's beeing brought up, ISB could be a consider a more flexible alternative for dealing with Polyps; at least if you do decide to make it pure shadow damage. The only thing I see, though, is that the shadow damage wouldn't quite sync with the shard shots animation; the solution would be to slightly adjust it so that it does, and perhaps the bombs appearance. Admittedly, I understand the reason for ISB being given a BD vs slime, as it is SALT ("The bane of Jellies everywhere."), and having it work as a pure piercing would seem a bit weird for a a salt bomb.

Alternatively, pure normal damage with BD vs Slime might be one option, but I don't see many people going for that.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 01:24

#123

Lan-The-Wizard

"Rangerwill :HEY, don't

"Rangerwill :HEY, don't insult the other one! MY gun."

Then tell it to be a big boy and get 5 stars

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 10:19

#124

Caramel-Bear

I'm fully on board with

I'm fully on board with changes to the AP and friends. I also support the single shot charge attack for the Antigua lines.

Also Split piercing/normal WHB plzzzzzzz. I'd love you forever.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 11:18

#125

The-Rawrcake

Well for my statement about

Well for my statement about alchemers, it actually would not overshadow them because, as most like to not understand this, alchemers are for split bullets AoE, the antigua lines would be single target with the exception of clipping bullets between two monsters (taking into consideration its all guns that clip between two targets hitting them both, alchemers when shot inbetween two mobs will sometimes even clip split bullets multiple times.)

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 16:02

#126

Carthiah

@The-Rawrcake

Saying that a weapon change "will not" overshadow something which is already in place is impossible. I think it's unlikely that a pure elemental Argent Peacemaker would overpower something like a Polaris, which already has good damage, knockback and splash damage, however the Umbra Driver's AoE damage is measly. The bullet ricochets are unpredictable and almost always bounce back toward the player, instead of toward the mob of enemies which I'm often kiting, resulting in very little AoE at all. If the new Sentenza were to do much more damage per second on average than the Umbra, then it could very well overshadow it entirely. This is not to mention the fact that the Sentenza can fire 5/6 bullets without reloading, where the Umbra can only fire 1/2. Any way you look at it, adding more pure-damage guns is going to be something which is balanced, and not just thrown together because they don't bounce around like alchemers.

I'm not saying that you will definately be wrong. All I'm saying is that you can't simply say that the new guns will not overshadow old ones with any kind of certainty at all.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 17:09

#127

Beans

I'm glad my Peacemaker will be given use outside of FSC. It might just become my main side-arm depending on the damage. I really didn't want to have to use Polaris, so this is nice.

Sentenza sounds okay.. but Gremlins don't really strike me as that common, or something I would actively take a gun to. I guess if we get a Gremlin boss it'd be nice, otherwise I feel like Sentenza is still getting the short end of the stick.. but less so than before, at least.

Additionally, I'm also for the pure pierce Antigua, but on that note, I wouldn't mind a pierce Sealed Sword either. [We have all elements but Pierce for the 2-swing swords.]

Other weapons I think you guys should look at buffing would be:

Troika-line Swords [It's underpowered in so many ways. Consider a new charge, or damage / speed buffs.]
Volcanic Pepperbox [I don't think I've seen anyone use this.]
Winmillion [It needs a 5* too!]
Cutter-line Swords
Iron Slug [Another one I've never seen used. Callahan is unanimously agreed to be better.]

And maybe a small damage buff for Valiance and Supernova? "Jack-of-all-trades" is nice, but when they're this weak they just end up being more "Master-of-none". Valiance was already a fair bit weaker than Peacemaker on FSC Slags. I can't imagine what the difference will be after the change.

Of course, Armors really need some looking at too..

Just throwing some thoughts out there.

Really glad equips are still being balanced. Hope you guys are going to continue with this. New content is great, but what good is it if everything before it is still a mess?

Not as good!

So keep at it. It's really appreciated, I promise.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 20:23

#128

Notawindowsuser

The pure pierce antigua

I mentioned it earlier for the reasons everyone unanimously agreed on. Antiguas and other pierce guns have specific traits that would make a pure piercing antigua simply wonderful for gunners to use.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 21:18

#129

Rangerwillx

@Notawindowsuser

"Antiguas and other pierce guns that would make a pure piercing antigua simply wonderful to use."
Completely wrong here. Like, not even in our universe wrong.
The only place where a pure pierce Antigua would be good is Vanaduke, and that's it.
It's practically impossible to hit Devilites with this gun, let alone Wolvers.
Tested with 3* Antigua, it sucks badly. Very badly.
Callahan is so much better then this would ever be.
Even if they made the damage per bullet 200 each, Callahan would still absolutely defeat it in any way possible except Vana.
Don't talk what you don't know about.
I was a gunner, used a Antigua with my Magnus and the Magnus was 500% better.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 21:22

#130

Fehzor

Idea: Instead of changing

Idea: Instead of changing damage type, change the way damage is calculated from one source to another, so that it will be the same percentages of good/bad as other weapons of pure damage types.

In other words, make AP/Sentenza still hold piercing/dark/elemental, but change it so that they get the same bonuses as pure weapons.

Fri, 11/25/2011 - 21:36

#131

Cherubrock

instead of fixing weapons

instead of fixing weapons that people sometimes use... why not fix weapons that no one uses... like:

big angry bomb,
irontech destroyer,
iron slug
stagger storm (really broken)
etc...

also I don't think sun shards should be pure piercing.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 01:16

#132

Heatsurge

If you're going to make the

If you're going to make the AP and Sentenza essentially better - you have to make the alchemers better and Callahan as well. Otherwise noone will use alchemers when AP or sentenza could be used - ever. Callahan and alchemers have bad DPS in my opinion and need a boost (or fiend high for callahan or something like that?)...

Also... 5* version of Winmillion please?

In addition, the volcanic pepperbox charge has a push-forward (towards me) effect on jellies. It's very glitchy. Try charging-attacking in royal jelly palace and you'll see what I mean.

Nevermidn the long-standing glitch where the Divine Avenger blades disappear into the wall behind you -_- .

Anyway, I like that my sentenza and AP will be much more useful... but are they OP? And if they are why aren't the other guns stronger?

2c delivered.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 05:57

#133

Glowing-Ember

lol

Non-gunners bashing Alchemer DPS.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 07:36

#134

Krysophylax

In principle I have to say

In principle I have to say that I'm against the changes. Sure, maybe a pure elemental AP would be more "useful" but the split damage is what makes it unique, plus I feel it would take away from what the gun is meant for: a holy weapon to slay the creatures of the underworld (undead and fiends). By removing the piercing damage it no longer has that feel about it. Yes I know that fiends dodge anyway and that the split damage does less damage to either monster than a comparable pure weapon, but that's not my point. Pure elemental damage would also mean that it becomes effective against constructs. Hardly the kind of enemy I would expect a holy weapon to be targeting. From a role-playing perspective, I would be incredibly disappointed if these changes went ahead, even though they may be more useful looking at it statistically. AP has its nice little niche, I say leave it there. It does its job (albeit a small one) rather well. Yes I agree it does need a balance of some sort, but changing what the gun was fundamentally designed for isn't the way to go about it...

That being said I would be less opposed to a pure shadow Sentenza. It feels like the polar opposite of the AP anyway, so I think it might be a good change and it would add to the currently limited variety of shadow weapons. However, the Antigua line in essence feels like an inherently "piercey" kind of weapon, and removing the piercing aspect would feel strange.

As for the RSS, I agree with what most people have already pointed out. It works well for bombers just the way it is, but if you HAVE to change it, make it pure elemental. Piercing would ruin it.

Summary:
Don't change AP
Maybe change Sentenza
Don't change RSS (or make it elemental)

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 15:16

#135

Tdhk

More thoughts

Already posted on this before but I have come to realize a few things.

Firstly:- Bombers already have a pure elemental bomb in the form of the electron vortex. There is no need to change RSS at all, as they make a great utility bomb that anyone can use. If you want something that will destroy constructs and undead, use the vortex. It applies shock, crowd control and does moderate damage. If you are going to complain about a bomb not doing enough damage to a single target, you have no idea what you are talking about. The bombers role is not to kill targets, but to soften up a whole group of them for thier team mates to finish off. If you want to claim I have no experience on the matter, you might be right, but seeing as I have nearly all the bomb paths to level 5 (unless it is impossible to do so like with RSS) then I think I have enough experience.

Secondly:- The only thing that needs to change with the AP and Sentenza is the charge attack. Most of the other gun lines fire 1 extremely powerful bullet (expect for the autogun lines which fire 1 stream that takes a little bit of time to fire but does huge damage when done properly). Through my experiences, the AP and Sentenza charge attacks leave you so vulnerable for such a long time, with the only benifit of the attack being the last bullet, which misses in most cases. The other shots do no extra damage, making them pointless. If you want to make them more useable, then have them fire the last bullet from its current charge attack (i.e Just the eagle/bullet). And perhaps fix the grey numbers on beasts and constructs.

Thirdly:- There are so many more weapons and alchemey paths that need attention far more then these. The Sentenza, AP and RSS get a lot of attention from players because more experienced people tell them that they are good weapons. They are then dissapointed when they find out that a Polaris will outdamage them or that they don't have a useful charge attack (like pretty much all the other guns save the catalyzer series and autogun series). Things like the ionized slat bomb (Seriously, a piercing bomb with bonus damage to jellies? May as well make an alchemer that has damage bonus to gremlins) which serve no real purpose as it is outshined by so many other weapons, blaster series of gun which are supposed to be the jack of all trades but are weak compared to the other gun possibilities. The others are already listed here, e.g. Volcanic pepperbox (which I like to use for its charge attack), winmillion etc.

In summary, I think that there needs to be some tweaks to the antigua line focusing around a useful charge attack instead of the damage type, no changes to the RSS and more focus on weapons that are less commonly used. Try to make sure that each weapon is worth considering as part of your arsenal.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 16:34

#136

Juances

To some people

We don't know how much damage will the new Antiguas receive. Stop saying they will overshadow alchemers.

@Krysophylax Divine Avenger could be consiedered 'holy' yet doesn't work like the current AP....
Faust is a powerfull shadow weapon that kills.... pink cubes?!?!?! The role-play you talk about is non-existant

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 19:32

#137

Shidara

Instead of altering Radiant Sun Shards...

Give it a 5* recipe. ;)
What could use a change is the Ionized Salt Bomb. Seriously, I haven't seen anyone using it, as opposed to Radiant Sun Shards which is actually a very good bomb. The Dark Briar Barrage would completely overshadow it if it became a pure piercing bomb.
(I have heard Radiant Sun Shards used to be a 5* bomb in the past, but in the present it is a 4* bomb, so don't give me that.)

The Antigua-line changes sound great, but if you are to change the Silversix-/Blackhawk-line damages, you need to do something for Antigua as well, or the piercing damage will stand out very nonsensically. I am a bit torn on the Silverix-Argent Peacemaker change because it's a good gun for picking down those pesky Devilites as well, but we'll see what happens - I am still happy for the pure elemental with damage bonus versus undead.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 19:49

#138

Ramdance

Personally I love this idea,

Personally I love this idea, it would push the polaris off the throne as the best Fire Storm Citadel Gun, or at least make it share. I also have an Antigua sitting in my backback because I don't like any of the upgrade paths. I really enjoy how it handles in every way besides the charge attack that seems like the same thing but without the ability to turn. I think having only two gun types, the Alchemer-Driver lines and the Pulsar-Polaris deal pure elemental limits peoples choices. This change would also make it worthwhile to have both upgrades of the antigua. The people who already have antiguas might feel rubbed the wrong way but the people using the argent peacemaker for Fire Storm Citadel probably will be happy with the undead bonus.

Without trying to resist change I also thought of a few reasons why it wouldn't be great. Some people only have 2 weapon slots and have worked it out so that they can deal 100% critical to 2 monster types and 75% critical to the rest of the monster types. Some people might feel like it's too rough a change for one of the most popular guns. It might make the game mechanics appear too simple, why allow weapons to deal two types of damage if none do? There might also be a better solution.

Possible other solutions:

•Make the Antigua and it's upgrades deal normal instead of piercing, making sure you at least do half damage. People like split damage that includes normal, the brandish lines are super popular.

•Make two new guns and two new recipes that stem from the Silversix and the Blackhawk that work as suggested. This makes sense as you could either stick with the split damage and go with Sentenza/Peacemaker or get rid of piercing entirely and go for the NewPeacemaker or the NewSentenza. This idea also works because it would not force anyone who already has an antigua line gun into anything.

•Change the guns to pure elemental and shadow and make a third antigua line that does piercing. This would be cool because then every damage type would get a new gun to add diversity to the weapons people use.

If the team does change the guns to be pure elemental/shadow you should consider leaving the Silversix and blackhawk damage levels alone so as you upgrade it goes:
3* 100% piercing
4* 50% piercing 50% other
5* 100% other
this would avoid the issue of having the gun suddenly deal very little damage to things it used to do critical to.
I wrote this rather fast, please let me know if something does not make sense.

Sat, 11/26/2011 - 20:24

#139

Benb

Pure Elemental AP/Silversix

I agree with Rangerwill, a pure Elemental Argent Peacemaker would be outstanding. I've tried AP against fiends, it's not useful at all. The fiends just dodge it. Pure elemental AP gets so many bonuses and would finally be the really useful gun it was: Slags (and zombies in general), Howlitzers, Phantoms, and even non-undead: Mecha Knights, Retrodes, Gun Puppies, you get the idea. Wolvers, Devilites, and Greavers (the main monsters that would supposedly be fought with a piercing AP) are better fought with the Callahan. The only enemy that would be easier fought with pure pierce AP is... Vanaduke? Not really a change at all, considering Vanaduke's health and the prominence of Blitz Needles.

To everyone who wants a pure piercing Argent Peacemaker: do you actually have an AP? Have you ever used one?

Hope the Devs keep AP/Silversix Elemental as planned.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 00:08

#140

Krysophylax

@juances

does the DA look like a piercing blade to you....thought not...
and an RPG with non existant roleplay would be a very strange game indeed...

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 01:39

#141

Aus-Lagger

My only response to nicks

My only response to nicks proposed AP/Sentenza changes: YES!! YES!!!

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 06:26

#142

Crossproduct

Sentenza/Peacemaker

Sentenza/Peacemaker Lines
Change the charge attack to something useful.
Pure damage is fine, but maybe replace the piercing with normal damage instead?
Could you also add a mechanic where the gun fires multiple shots per click so we're jamming our mouse button a million times a second? Same with autogun and other really fast weapons?

Radiant Sun Shards
Piercing is a bad idea, make it pure elemental, or pure Shadow. There is no shadow damage bomb in the game.

Justifier/Nameless
Both these 5* armor/helms need a boost, preferably a status resist to bring them onto par with other 5* gear.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 10:54

#143

Lan-The-Wizard

@ crossproduct I don't think

@ crossproduct

I don't think shadow would work on a bomb called Radiant Sun Shards.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 11:10

#144

Rangerwillx

@Crossproduct

I do agree with buffs for gunslinger armors, but other things you have said are incorrect, really.
RSS couldn't go to pure shadow. It's pure piercing, pure elemental, or stay how it is.
"There is no shadow damage bomb in the game." Again, people are forgetting graviton vortex.
The damage isn't all that bad, and in a party it works amazingly well if the party knows what they are doing.
A heavy sword or even better a Brandish charge annihilates enemies with ease.
If you really need another shadow bomb, however, change Ionized Salt Bomb to pure shadow.
It's terrible as it is with piercing damage and a damage to slimes.
About AP & Setenza.
If it was made normal damage and elemental damage it would still be a odd duck, as no other guns are like that.

@Benb
Thanks, glad to see someone agrees with me.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 13:38

#145

Dawnstrike

@Espeonage Whoa, hold on

@Espeonage

Well, the disadvantage I see is that there are several fast/mobile elemental guns (I have a polaris and storm driver, both are solid weapons and I'd rather take a polaris than a AP into FSC, which used to be its stomping grounds pre-IMF) and making AP a pure-elemental is running into their niche. With piercing guns, the Callahan and Blitz are both slow move and shots, so they're not as useful for non-trojan fiends AND most wolvers, so a fast/mobile piercing gun would fill an additional niche, plus the Undead bonus would go back to the 'holy' aspect of the weapon (it wouldn't be AS good as an aligned bonus, but it would help). Moreover, piercing helps with the original use, which is Vana kills. Another shadow gun is also a nice idea, considering the current ones are...okay.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 14:07

#146

Ufana

Lets face it... AP is easy to

Lets face it... AP is easy to use. It's a great gun, usability-wise. Very easy. Practically nothing can go wrong. It needs a drawback. "Split dmg" is such a drawback. If there was an "antigua line pure anything", there would be close to no place for any other gun, unless the dmg antigua does would be FAR inferior. Then it would be fine. Great. But who wants a pure [something] antigua with reduced damage? Noone. Thats the problem.

I have all guns and I played with all of them (a little at least). I don't think I'd ever take another elemental gun with me, if AP was pure elemental. Not sure for piercing either... the Blitz Needle charge does great damage, but hey, I could put a dmg module into the trinket slot where I usually carry the ctr focus and just run in a circle while I drink coffee instead of utilising various player skills so... guess piercing antigua wins, too. And shadow antigua? Yes, lets just forget the other two shadow weapons, they suck anyway. Congratulation, your game now has 3 guns total (maybe 4, if someone remembers he still has a Valiance in his trunk) ;)

Yes, we (almost) all want an elemental AP. Also we want it to do three times the damage that a DA does (per bullet) and to give us 100ce every time we kill a mob with it. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 15:12

#147

Mohandar

Consider what the problem is.

Hm. How about giving AP a Med Bonus vs. Undead, and making the charge shot more useful- slightly shorter charge time, and fires one single knock-back eagle. Same with Sentenza- Med Bonus vs. Gremlins, shorter charge and single knock-back owl. The damage type remains split, but now the guns are much more useful against their respective specialties. If that's not enough, raise their base damage by 10-25% or so. I agree that any pure-type Antigua line is likely to result in other guns getting neglected, and loss of skill and style among the playerbase.

The current problem with the split-type Antigua lines is that split type constrains their effectiveness to only one or two monster classes, and even against those classes they don't do enough damage. So the fix is to boost damage against those types, either by raising base damage and/or giving a natural bonus. I like the idea of Sentenza/Argent as specialist weapons. Removing the split-type damage would destroy that distinction, and possibly result in overpowered guns to boot.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 16:18

#148

Theirillusion

im pro change

i would like the antigua lines to become pure dmg, and adding undead dmg bonus is nothing but good. But the sun shard bomb is good as it is imo.

argent will be more usefull against constructs although the dmg to vanaduke will decrease using antigua line if piercing will disapear :/

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 17:19

#149

Round-Shinigami

What needs to be done to

What needs to be done to antigua line of guns, in my opinion:
- increased damage, at least by 10%
- AP line - pure elemental, sentenza line - pure shadow (as mentioned in the first post) / can also have split normal/elemental and normal/shadow damage on AP, sentenza respectively
- make third variant with pure piercing damage
- add status effects to all of them instead of "undead damage bonus" or "gremlin damage bonus". Same boring stun will do just fine, but different effects would be welcome, for example fire on AP, curse on Sentenza and Stun on third, pure piercing gun.
- add reason to use their charged attacks

Note: pure elemental AP will be your worst gun for Vanaduke. Reason is simple: Vanaduke is a Beast family monster. Resistant to elemental, weak to piercing. Shocking, I know. So a pure piercing gun is needed. Or vanaduke's monster family fix is needed. He should either be neutral, or undead/fiend. My personal opinion.

As for bomb - can't comment. I only use freeze bomb.
By the way, why isn't there a big blast pure shadow bomb? The only one with shadow damage currently is graviton vortex.

Also, any-but-elemental bomb CTR armors are missing. Piercing, shadow variants would be most welcome. There is shadow bomb, piercing bomb and no respective armors.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 18:18

#150

Mormon-Sparhawk

+1 to what has been said.

Great idea, esp for the Sentenza, but the damage will *have* to be reduced to make them comparable to alchemers/Polaris/Catalyzer etc. Yes, AP should do the most damage to undead, and should rightly be an FSC staple, but there's a real danger that it will render all other guns obsolete. Also, adding a 3rd piercing line = bad. The guns are styled as good and bad, dark and light, what would the 3rd be: grey?

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Possible changes to dual special damage weapons