I think that duel damage is a good asset for all these things to have so please don't change them.
I also think that a pure piercing Antigua line is open for discussion as well.
But apart from that there is nothing else I have to add to what has been said already..
I think that duel damage is a good asset for all these things to have so please don't change them.
Do you even own a sentenza? It is only good vs beasts and gremlins; both of these dodge relatively well and even with max asi you wont ever do the amount of dmg an umbra driver would and the wep will feel as though it is a waste of a slot.
The charge leaves you immobile and unable to block for about 4 seconds and considering that the enemies you would hit will probably dodge, you are gonna lose HP and regret charging unless you have no enemy aggro and even then you would get a good charge hit.
I just want a answer from OOO.
They've pretty much got the responses they want, yet they haven't told us to forget it or that they'll try it..
Not only this, but what about the drones? It's the only thing missing from that What's in Development - November 2011
OOO we want a status update on this issue!!!!!!!
People complain about the blackhawk and/or sentenza not being much use for the beasts and gremlins it is strong against due to their ability to dodge, is it just me or would adding in curse status be a fitting addition for a dark-themed gun? There are only 3 weapons in the game capable of inflicting curse at the moment, and all of them are swords. And/or add in minor stun chance. If that was done, something comparable should be done to the S6/AP of course, but there isn't really a "good" aligned version of curse. Perhaps cycling fire/freeze/shock, with the same slight stun chance as the BH/Sentenza?
This is of course speaking in addition to my last idea, of boosting the crits on the upgrades in the Antigua line to be comparable to those of single damage type guns to make them competitive.
No inflicting status please. Everytime they put in a status effect they nerf the damage.
Forget about the size and color of your damage numbers for a moment. Like every other weapon that deals a special type of damage, AP and Sentenza have two tribes they work well against, two tribes they work poorly against, and two tribes they work okay against. These last two are the baseline, regardless of if their little numbers are grey or blue.
The spread of dual-type weapons' damage is more similar to an elemental sword's, which deals half typed and half normal: the high and low damages deviate less from the baseline than a pure-typed weapon. That's it; that's the only mechanical difference between a half- and pure-type weapon. The only additional difference between a standard dual-type sword and something like Sentenza or RSS is that the tribes that they are more or less effective against are different.
The one of these weapons that I own, Argent Peacemaker (and Silversix before it), is wonderful in FSC because it's good against the zombies and trojans, and good for kiting Vana... but it's also not bad against the red rovers and not terrible against the blast cubes and wolvers. I'm happy to take it outside of FSC to places like arenas because, again, it will never be too bad against the enemies I encounter, unlike a pure-type weapon.
I don't think any of these needs a change.
@Arquebus- The problem is that most people would rather take another weapon entirely if the case of a bad matchup were to come up. That makes the problem with the Sentenza and Argent Peacemaker the fact that they can't deal as much damage as either Umbra Driver or Polaris respectively and Callahan, etc. If someone is small on weapon slots then I think everyone would agree that the weapons would be best as they are since they're so versatile but no one really takes the positive of being better against bad matchups over the negative of being worse against a good matchup.
As for the Brandish line, THESE should be changed. Whats the point of half normal damage? It saddens me when I see my BTB occasionally doing rather equal damage against Zombies as my Voltbrand.
Not really going to write anything since I think most of what I wanted to say has already been expressed throughout the thread so;
Yes to both proposed gun changes.
No to making RSS pure piercing.
Yes to making RSS pure elemental.
Going along with that I'd also like to raise the suggestion of making the Ionized Salt Bomb pure shadow to counterpart RSS and actually make it a worthwhile weapon to use against slimes (Which it fails at rather spectracuarly currently). It would also give us pure dps elemental/shadow bombs since we currently lack any despite having Nitro and DBB for normal and piercing respectively.
Ash of Angi isn't a pure DPS elemental bomb?
Not really, the dps achieved via spreading status isn't elemental and actually trying to dps with the actual 'explosion' from a status bomb rarely works. Besides that I think it was pretty clear what I meant via the comparison to Nitro and DBB, unless you wish to be pointlessly semantic to the stage that Ash is indeed an elemental bomb which is used to dps; irrespective of how it deals damage or the nature of said damage. I simply didn't think I would need to explicitly clarify that it would be the only bomb purely used for the purpose of dpsing with elemental damage, against targets weak to elemental, regardless of their status affliation.
@Echoez, my comment wasn't aimed at you. Lots of people in this thread seem to forget that Ash is elemental. But you are right it is just semantics, but bomb does great dps. You can easily slow the third arena whilst ignoring menders. Fire isn't really a status effect like shock, stun, poison, and curse are. All fire does is DPS.
Certainly, but Ash is also unusuable in fire-themed stratums and also although devastating in any area where there is room to kite; isn't anywhere near as powerful if the player has limited mobility. Take Ultimate IMF for example, already a very dangerous stratum for bombers filled with constructs -several of which are fire themed- and there's generally very little room for a bomber to make full use of ash. If a bomber wants to dps they're stuck with Nitro; which can run the risk of obscuring vision in a small area for your team as well as knocking status slimes into status grates and causing hell, or they use RSS which has subpar dps due to the split piercing. If RSS was pure elemental on the otherhand, it would actually be extremely useful in said situation.
What I'm getting at really is the 'piercing' side of RSS adds nothing to the bomb besides being slightly more useful against Greavers and Trojans (The only pierce weak enemies a self-respecting bomber will use it against) and neither of these would actually become anymore difficult to dps with RSS should it lose the piercing damage. If it instead was pure elemental it would be more effective against undead (On of its' main uses atm) as well as Constructs and even Slimes (Bearing in mind RSS was the main tool for bombers dpsing Royal Jelly before it became pierce resistant). As it stands there are various situations throughout the game currently where bombers are unable to contribute dps in anyway without either: spamming status (Not always possible/ideal) or detrimenting their team with obscuring visual effects and knockback. The shards are a wonderful bomb in concept becuase they have great damage and are more or less entirely non-disruptive, yet right now they're essentially useless since the split damage severely limits their use.
I support this thread.
I also support the brining in of a pure piercing line for the Antigua.
Arquebus said:
" Forget about the size and color of your damage numbers for a moment. Like every other weapon that deals a special type of damage, AP and Sentenza have two tribes they work well against, two tribes they work poorly against, and two tribes they work okay against. These last two are the baseline, regardless of if their little numbers are grey or blue.
The spread of dual-type weapons' damage is more similar to an elemental sword's, which deals half typed and half normal: the high and low damages deviate less from the baseline than a pure-typed weapon. That's it; that's the only mechanical difference between a half- and pure-type weapon. The only additional difference between a standard dual-type sword and something like Sentenza or RSS is that the tribes that they are more or less effective against are different.
The one of these weapons that I own, Argent Peacemaker (and Silversix before it), is wonderful in FSC because it's good against the zombies and trojans, and good for kiting Vana... but it's also not bad against the red rovers and not terrible against the blast cubes and wolvers. I'm happy to take it outside of FSC to places like arenas because, again, it will never be too bad against the enemies I encounter, unlike a pure-type weapon.
I don't think any of these needs a change"
____________
Just so we all know that there is absolutely no reason to NOT change these guns to pure...
1. "Forget about the size and color of your damage numbers for a moment. "
umm.... isn't the numbers what's kind of important? Is it the fact that it shoots zomg-fast and has absolutely no aoe or utility that makes you like it? -.-
2. "Like every other weapon that deals a special type of damage, AP and Sentenza have two tribes they work well against, two tribes they work poorly against, and two tribes they work okay against. These last two are the baseline, regardless of if their little numbers are grey or blue."
First of all because it's a pain to respond to these types of things, so please excuse me, but you are extremely lazy and do not research enough. anyway, it deals 112.5% damage against 2 families, 75% damage to two families, and 62.5% against two families. Oh so, so, so overwhlemingly poweful -.- now do you get why, say, a sentenza wouldn't deal blue to a slime? cause its only doing 75% of its damage. the more you know....
3. "The spread of dual-type weapons' damage is more similar to an elemental sword's, which deals half typed and half normal: the high and low damages deviate less from the baseline than a pure-typed weapon. That's it; that's the only mechanical difference between a half- and pure-type weapon.""
*sigh* your stupidity is overflowing. Please excuse me once again, it is such a pain dealing with some of you. The difference between a split specialty type weapon vs. a split normal weapon, is that one is split specialty type and one is split normal type. Pure-typed weapons deal 25% extra damage instead of 112.5% to things they are good on. If you think you whacking a zombie with a gran faust or shooting a part piercing wep on a construct in this game is worth while just because it is part normal or something effective, you can go to a different game. This one is too complicated for you, that is, because you have to use more than one weapon and common sense.
4. "The one of these weapons that I own, Argent Peacemaker (and Silversix before it), is wonderful in FSC because it's good against the zombies and trojans, and good for kiting Vana... but it's also not bad against the red rovers and not terrible against the blast cubes and wolvers. I'm happy to take it outside of FSC to places like arenas because, again, it will never be too bad against the enemies I encounter,"
you are brain dead to think that 62.5% of normal weapon damage on a six-shot no-aoe, no-utility weapon is good.
5. "it will never be too bad against the enemies I encounter, unlike a pure-type weapon."
Once again, go to a different game, because this one is too complicated for you. If you want to stay, I'd highly suggest using something besides all shadow, all elemental, or all piercing weapons.
6. "I don't think any of these needs a change."
No.
I am hoping that nobody else makes any more pathetic suggestions, because its already annoying enough that we are being completely blowed off. The last thing we need is for them to see some idiotic post like that one and think twice about an obvious change that has been put off for months.
To settle this...why don't we do a vote?....like on here or twitter or face book??? :) well i dont know if its a bad thing or a good thing (to make some changes) couse I don't have these weapons :P but make a vote??? Varieties matters (I cant spell good)
..it's already about 180/20. No need for a vote.
For the changes are 180.
i would love these changes. i love antigua guns (mainly cuz they benefit the most from ASI).
but dont touch the sun shards
Frankly, I'd like to see normal damage added to it. That way, the swing of how the 2 other elements work act more as a minor compliment to the gun, rather than dragging the entire thing down.
I'd expect the bars to be renormalized of course, but yeah. Normal damage. A shame that this will never be read by the devs. :(
the change for AP and Senteza line is great but the RSS damage change is bad
This will make AP and Senteza more often to see than usual
I still think the existence of the FSC, where most enemies are undead or fiend, makes the Argent Peacemaker useful enough as it is that it doesn't need to change. Weapons specialized for boss strata are ok because they are useful.
Sentenza doesn't have a beast/gremlin boss zone to make it worthwhile, and even if it did their dodging mechanics would still leave it inferior to the Argent Peacemaker. Because of this, Sentenza should be made pure shadow.
Sorry, but both guns should be left in their current state.
Why?
Because there are NO other guns that have split Pierce and Elem/Shadow. As Arquebus said:
Like every other weapon that deals a special type of damage, AP and Sentenza have two tribes they work well against, two tribes they work poorly against, and two tribes they work okay against.
So they work same as other guns. Their coolness comes from their bullet speed, attack speed and biggest clip (except autogun). I think that is the reason they should be kept at split damage - to make them 'stranger' than else guns. Also, the split damage is absolutely great for Lockdown - not much armors have split Pierce and Elem/Shadow.
Also, want a fully elemental gun? Get one from a variety of Alchemers.
Want a status inflicting gun? Again, Alchemers or Polaris line.
Yes, I agree that there is too few pure Shadow guns (currently only Umbra Driver) and there should be more. But don't change great weapons that are actually ingame. Make new ones!
Edit - Also forgot about mentioning the Antigua description - A mysterious relic from a forgotten time. It uses explosive powder to fire its rounds.
So, this explains why the gun is Piercing. As the AP and Sentenza are upgrades of it, they also should keep Piercing damage.
I think I figured out how to fix the dual special weapons. Introduce three new damage types into the game - anti-shadow, anti-piercing, and anti-elemental
Against players, the new types of damage will deal 50/50 split special damage as follows:
anti-shadow deals piercing/elemental damage
anti-piercing deals shadow/elemental damage
anti-elemental deals piercing/shadow damage
Against mobs in the clockworks, the three new damage types will work on the opposite way that shadow/elemental/piercing weapons do. For instance, if a mob is resistant to shadow, then it will be weak to anti-shadow. If a mob is weak against shadow, then it will be resistant to anti-shadow.
Specifically:
Anti-shadow (argent peacemaker and radiant sun shards)
- strong against fiends and undead
- normal damage against constructs and beasts
- weak against gremlins and slimes
Anti-piercing (not implemented in the game yet)
- strong against constructs and slimes
- normal damage against undead and gremlins
- weak against beasts and fiends
Anti-elemental (sentensa)
- strong against beasts and gremlins
- normal damage against fiends and slimes
- weak against undead and constructs
I think this is how the split damage weapons are supposed to work, but they aren't working that way due to the way damage is calculated. The three new damage types is a workaround for the issue. Further, the current balance of the PvP should not be upset by the update because split damage weapons already deal this kind of damage to players.
i think this would be an amazing update, especially with my blackhawk almost always being ineffective(Although it is awesome)
Vuks said everyting between the lines (because i mislead someone into thinking I AM the idiot posting that. pfffft.):
________________________________________________________________________________________
"Sorry, but both guns should be left in their current state.
Why?
Because there are NO other guns that have split Pierce and Elem/Shadow. As Arquebus said:
Like every other weapon that deals a special type of damage, AP and Sentenza have two tribes they work well against, two tribes they work poorly against, and two tribes they work okay against.
So they work same as other guns. Their coolness comes from their bullet speed, attack speed and biggest clip (except autogun). I think that is the reason they should be kept at split damage - to make them 'stranger' than else guns. Also, the split damage is absolutely great for Lockdown - not much armors have split Pierce and Elem/Shadow.
Also, want a fully elemental gun? Get one from a variety of Alchemers.
Want a status inflicting gun? Again, Alchemers or Polaris line.
Yes, I agree that there is too few pure Shadow guns (currently only Umbra Driver) and there should be more. But don't change great weapons that are actually ingame. Make new ones!
Edit - Also forgot about mentioning the Antigua description - A mysterious relic from a forgotten time. It uses explosive powder to fire its rounds.
So, this explains why the gun is Piercing. As the AP and Sentenza are upgrades of it, they also should keep Piercing damage"
______________________________________________________________________________________
ANOTHER complete idiot that threw up something with 0 thought put into it.
READ what I posted IN RESPONSE to arquebus. READ IT i explained everything wrong about what he said.
arquebus is a complete idiot and now you are too because you took advice from him.........
Biohazard is also shadow gun
What, why bring up status inflicting?
How does explosive powder explain piercing damage?
At the lockdown thing, Dragon Scale Mail is only piercing and elemental, not to mention so many wolvers give piercing or elemental. Radiant Silvermail does Piercing and Shadow as well. Plus, people mix and match armors too. Your argument there is invalid.
The strangeness of the gun drives people away
The split damage deals weaker damage than a normal/specialized from 50%(normal/specialized) to 25%(split damage).
:D
You obviously didn't read enough to see that he was quoting a not well done post, and saying why it shouldn't.
I personally agree. A lot.
Read it buddy =p
The point that I'm making, since it seems to have gotten lost, is that the moderate tribes effectively ARE the base damage, and that deviations from THAT are what we should be calculating from. Split-special weapons will never, ever deal their actual base damage to any enemy, so it's useless to even consider it. This was the paradigm that I was trying to describe. If you have a theoretical weapon that deals 100% Fake damage, and all monsters are 50% resistant to Fake, it's going to be misleading to think about the "base" that you're dealing, because you're never actually dealing it; you think about the real, practical damage. That's how you understand how the game really works. If you buy a car for $20,000 with a $5,000 rebate, for instance, you don't think that you're paying 20 grand for the car; you know you're really paying 15.
For some numbers, I'll take a pure special weapon (Barbarous Thorn Blade, first hit), a split normal weapon (Glacius, first hit), and a split special weapon (Radiant Sun Shards, because the others have no damage entries), at highest damage at stratum 6, versus monsters that the damage is neutral, stong, and weak for. Data is from the wiki.
BTB
Neutral: 203
Strong: 285 (~40% increase)
Weak: 47 (~75% reduction)
Glacius
Neutral: 198
Strong: 270 (~35% increase)
Weak: 128 (~35% reduction)
RSS
Neutral (Construct and Beast): 179
Strong (Undead, Fiend ignored as outlier due to bonus): 230 (~35% increase)
Weak (Gremlin and Slime): 107 (~35% reduction)
Do you see something interesting there? In terms of deviation from the neutral, split-special weapons have EXACTLY the same spread as split normal, which is EXACTLY how I described them in my original post. Again, it makes not one bit of difference what the "base" damage is, because you will never see it. Once you get over the emotional impact of "oh noes, my numbers are all gray and small" and start doing the math, you realize that the only thing that split-special changes is which two families it's more or less effective against, which is extremely relevant in places like Zombie/Fiend-heavy FSC.
These weapons are only "weird" when people don't understand how they work. Mathematically, they're just as effective as split-normal weapons, which see broad use. I'm going to ignore the personal attacks on me and hope that more reasonable people will be able to see the truth in the numbers. I hope this clears up my position.
ATTENTION, ATTENTION, IF YOU DO NOT READ ANY OF MY POST DUE PERSONAL ATTACKS, READ THIS! SORRY FOR CAPS, I NEED YOUR ATTENTION:
going from 100% to 125% is a 25% increase. Going from 75% to 112.5% is a 37.5% increase. Do you see how that works? you cannot just look at the increase.
HERE IS ME DUMBING IT THE HECK DOWN SO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING:
25 is sitting on a chair. 25 leaps to 50, causing it to move 25 spots. 50 is also sitting on a chair. 50 leaps to 75. 50 leaped 25 spots.
Both chairs moved 25 spots, but 75 is still greater than 50 :o :o :o :O :O :O
THE PERSONAL ATTACK PART THAT YOU DO NOT NEED TO READ AND REPEATS MY POST THAT YOU DID NOT READ:
1. you are comparing 3 completely different weapons. completely different. Not to mention one is a bomb -.- therefore, do not look at that and say "hmm, resonable" Also, there are things like utility and aoe which OOO has to account for and then make the weapon's damage accounting for that. In other words, if you were to compare a split piercing / elemental AP to a pure elemental AP, you would have to have a pure elemental AP not a nova driver (for example).
2. The facts are facts are FACTS. If you want to see "truth in the numbers." Here they are:
a. Enemies take 25% of a damage they are resistant to
b. Enemies take 125% of a damage they are weak to
c. Enemies take 100% of damage they are neutral to
d. Pure types will account for the above
e. Split types will account for BOTH types of damage
3. Now. time for some math since I do not want to hurt your head doing math or actually reading my previous post.
a. If a weapon is split percing / elemental and is shot at a gremlin, it will deal 50% of its damage as piercing and 50% of its damage as elemental. Therefor, 50% of it damage will be 100% effective (piercing) while 50% of its damage will be 25% effective (elemental). Time to make your head hurt, I hope you understand how percentages work: 100% of 50% (the piercing part of damage hitting the gremlin) is 50%. That is because 100% of 50 is still 50. get it? 25% of 50% (the elemental damage hitting the gremlin) is 12.5%. 25% of 50, get it?
b. 12.5% of elemental damage on the gremlin + 50% of piercing damage on the gremlin = 62.5% total damage.
4. Now lets shoot our AP split piercing / elemental at a construct, cause its weak to elemental but resistant to piercing.
a. Remember, 50% of the weapon is elemental while 50% is piercing. 125% of 50% (elemental on the construct) equals 62.5%. 25% of 50% (the piercing damage deals to the construct) is 12.5%.
b. 62.5% + 12.5% = 75%. 75% does not equal 100%! it is not neutral to it, therefore it shows "oh noes, my numbers are all gray and small". Probably because they aren't dealing 100% of its damage?
I will not say anmore because you should have read my post instead of take offence to the personal attacks and stop. I promise to write you walls of text, and I promise to read your walls of text. I expect out of you to read my walls of text in return. Your walls of text might not make sense, but I will do my best to dumb things down, so read it, please.
Again, I am sorry for getting like really into this and using caps and strongs, but I want these changes to happen and do not want idiots to ruin OOO's train of thought -.- if i get mad, i get mad, i could care less what you think. I just want you to be smart.
Agree with rawrcake, it seems that arque either never used an antigua line gun, or just plain stupid
Nick already said "After sufficient review it seems clear that these weapons are odd ducks. Dual special damage ends up facing too many weaknesses and results in an incredibly niche weapon." the antigua line's straight-out sucks, if you compare it to other guns in the game, antigua's probably the worst gun to bring into the clockworks. I dont want OOO to cancel the change just because people like arque cant see whats the antigua line's lacking of.
While I can accept the fact that the changes are going through by popular demand I'm astounded at everyone's personal attacks on Arquebus, who has a point.
Min maxers can't accept that the Antigua line branches never do truly amplified or truly reduced damage. Everyone acts as if a niche gun is a bad thing but it's not bad - it's just different.
I agree that the changes should be made but wish they'd just introduce 2 new antigua lines instead of demolishing the old ones because, as has been pointed out, they have their uses in PvP and for niche users who only want/have two gun slots or have a truly hybrid loadout (2 guns, sword, bomb or other soloist loadouts).
Speaking of changes, if it's so important to make sure that every weapon is viable then what of the Iron slug or the Wild Hunting blade? Now there's two weapons that just SUCK. Their only niche is the garbage can and/or people who like the way they look/sound.
"personal attacks on Arquebus"
disregard these, its something i have to work on myself, even personal attacking the devs.
"Speaking of changes, if it's so important to make sure that every weapon is viable then what of the Iron slug or the Wild Hunting blade? Now there's two weapons that just SUCK. Their only niche is the garbage can and/or people who like the way they look/sound."
I agree.
Think about your position for a moment. You're basing your response entirely on the fact that Antigua lines will deal less than their "base" damage to four monster tribes. Since this is what seems to be important to you, and seems to be why you think it's a bad weapon, let's use your numbers on a hypothetical Super-Sentenza that deals, say, 400 damage base, 200 of each damage type. Amplified types will deal 250, reduced will deal 50. So:
It'll deal 450 to Gremlins and Beasts,
300 to Slimes and Fiends,
and 250 to Constructs and Undead.
Is this still a bad weapon? Hell no! This would break the game in half, despite being "less than 100% effective" two-thirds of the time! Players would not care that the numbers are gray; they'd care that they're in the hundreds! As I've been saying all along, the big and orange or small and gray doesn't matter; the only thing that matters is the actual numbers.
So I don't think that it's the "grayness" that you really have a problem with. I think it's the amount of damage the split lines deal. The moderate tribes aren't being hit hard enough for your tastes to consider using the weapon on, and the weak tribes aren't being dealt enough damage for you to care. And you know what? That's perfectly fine! It's your opinion and your decision, and it's a perfectly viable thing to tell the developers about! And I'd even agree with you that AP and Sentenza could use a few more damage points!
...but the split types aren't what's wrong with these weapons. I can understand why the developers are concerned about them, because the colored numbers (obviously) create a lot of negative emotional responses. However, I think a simple damage boost would be enough to make these weapons popular, because in the end, that's what players really care about.
If someone starts a conversation with me by deliberately and repeatedly insulting me, I'm not going to just dismiss it and move on as if nothing happened. Calm down. Think about what you've written before you submit it. You've obviously got some anger issues, but fortunately for you, a forum isn't a real-time conversation: you can stop, review your work, and write about the actual issue instead of immediately blasting your fellow posters. Everyone will be much more inclined to really listen to you if they don't have to wade through all your hate.
i would love a pure piercing line for the antigua.
gunners don't have an option for a mobile piercing weapon right now.
we have to settle for split damage with the antiguas or root ourselves in place with needle shot or magnus lines.
the enemies that are most frustrating because of this are the fiends, which are weak to piercing but require you to be mobile.
I am strongly against making these guns pure-typed. The whole point of these guns is the theming and unique damage scheme. I do agree they are weaker than need be, but the solution is to raise their base damage and give them damage boosts against their respective monster types- Undead and Fiends for Argent, and Beasts and Gremlins for Sentenza.
These guns are too, too easy to use- point, shoot and spam away. Balance dictates that they must do reduced damage, or be more specialized. I vote the latter, because going the former path results in two questions: What's the point of using any other elemental/shadow gun? (if they have high/comparable damage, due to ease of use) What's the point of using them? (if their damage is low relative to existing elemental/shadow guns). By making them better at what they do, they will finally get some use without supplanting other guns.
I do agree the charge attack should be shortened to just the knockback eagle/owl though, probably with some damage buffing.
I just want AP and Sentenza to do full crits against the monsters they good against.
Sentenza could use the change for sure PVE-wise, as it's outclassed by pretty much every other piercing or shadow gun. I could see why people would not want the AP changed; changing it to a pure damage would hamper it's usefulness in FSC (But make it more useful almost everywhere else). It would ruin the theme of what the AP seemed to be as mentioned earlier though. I thought of another possible idea that might help them:
Give them the knockdown mechanism (like what the Callahan/iron slug has) and keep the damage the same.
Right now, 3 of the monster types that these guns are good against contain a good amount of mobs that dodge bullets. While the first shot you get off will hit, all the rest will miss unless you adjust your aim and even then, they probably will still miss. Especially in the case of the Sentenza, this will make them more effective on what they are supposed to be effective against, while giving them a small edge on the monters they are "less-than-neutral" on. Monsters that are strong to them reduces the damage so much that you may as well use something else. This would not outclass he Callahan as the Callahan deals tons more damage per bullet, will deal neutral or greater damage to dodgers, and has the ability to stun, severely hampering the target. It would also give more options on guns that work well against dodging monsters.
Sadly I have never used the RSS, so I can't say much on those.
Just my input, but if the change does happen I won't complain at all. Why refuse a supposed buff to guns, something we've been asking about for awhile?
what i said earlier, I was simply adding on to your argument, not against it, I knew you were quoting.
In the case of the Antigua lines, I believe they should most certainly be changed, as split damage isn't as good as it seems it will be. In fact, its best use would be in PvP, which was one of the reasons the antigua was developed. But, it evolved into something meant more for monsters that dodge, so gunners can actually hit them, but this split damage hampered it's ability greatly.
So now I believe we should change the antigua lines into pure damage, and possibly add a 3rd line for piercing damage(for wolvers). This would give gunners a better variety, and better specialization(shadow-gremlins)(elemental-spookats)(piercing-wolvers).
Another suggestion I have is to make Sentenza shadow(with maybe gremlin damage bonus), but make Argent Peacmaker Piercing with an Undead Damage bonus, simply because I feel it'll fit a better niche and still fit its description.
Simply put, I want to see this change to happen, especially for the Sentenza so I can actually shoot gremlins.
Maybe the blackhawk and sentenza could be changed to be like the faust/gran faust? make the guns both normal and shadow damage (possibly just shadow), but make them slightly able to cause curse. maybe also make it do less damage in to make it fair.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
hope argent peacmaker becomes pure elemental PLZ NICK MAKE IT YAYAYAY MAKE IT
Well if Argent Peacemaker gets changed to elemental, how about splitting Iron Slug between piercing and elemental?
"This would break the game in half"
Of course, its a Super sentenza you are looking at big numbers.
"If someone starts a conversation with me by deliberately and repeatedly insulting me, I'm not going to just dismiss it and move on as if nothing happened. Calm down. Think about what you've written before you submit it. You've obviously got some anger issues, but fortunately for you, a forum isn't a real-time conversation: you can stop, review your work, and write about the actual issue instead of immediately blasting your fellow posters. Everyone will be much more inclined to really listen to you if they don't have to wade through all your hate."
Due to recent events, I have to control my "hate" :) (quotes cause it isn't hate just anger, I think I had a bad hair day)
Just think of my old posts as.... that guy that felt protected by a computer screen ;)
Anyway, my writing about the actual issue is among the innards of the post. I am not going to say any more now, just let you use the guns however but I will say, go down and shoot a slime with sentenza or blackhawk
I guarantee you will feel the lack of damage before you feel the hand cramps.
You're missing Arquebus' point. Suppose for the sake of argument that Three Rings made a new Magnus line that does split special damage, with a base damage of about 1.15 times the Callahan's. Then against enemies that they're good against, the new gun would do around 96% of the damage of the Callahan. Against enemies they're moderately good against, the new gun would do around 101% of the damage of the Callahan. Against enemies they're bad against, the new gun would do around 288% of the damage of the Callahan. Compared to an Iron Slug, the new gun would do around 144%, 101%, and 72% of the damage.
If you make it around 1.1 times the base damage, you get around 92%, 96% and 275% respectively compared to the Callahan/ 138%, 96%, and 69% compared to the Iron Slug.
Depending on how likely that higher damage against bad targets is to come into play (probably not very much for dedicated gunslingers, more often for hybrids), somewhere in that 1.1x-1.15x range would probably result in a fairly balanced weapon.
The point that Arquebus and I are trying to make here is that the damage spread of a split-special weapon isn't particularly bad, as long as the base damage is adjusted upwards appropriately to compensate for the overall decrease in effective damage against good/neutral targets. The Sentenza and AP just do bad damage because they don't have enough base damage.
I think shards should stay as they are, the elemental and pierce mix is great for fiend strata and FSC, but maybe an offensive pure elemental bomb would be nice *hint*
@arquebus
Roflmao. Who the h**l uses argent peacemaker against other enemies than slag walkers in fsc?
The issue with that is i am fairly certain they don't have weaknesses / resistances based on the specific weapon, just based on the monster, i.e every weapon gets a bonus from undead medium on undeads while Vana isn't classified as undead, therefore every weapon will not have that undead medium damage bonus against him. That is one example of a monsters weaknesses / resistances being based the monster itself and not the weapon. Second, I think what you are aiming at can simply be the exact same thing should it just be made pure elemental or shadow... unless what you are saying is you want it to keep the usefulness on gremlins and beasts with sentenza for example instead of the normal shadow's slime and gremlin? The reason you wouldn't want that is that you would end up having a gun useful against gremlin and beast, then say a callahan useful against fiend and beast, you've just over-written a family. And for what you said about people getting the guns for their intended reasons they are now... trust me, anyone who got an antigua line was expecting a lot, lot more than what they got -.- I remember when it was very hard to do JK in groups since it was toward the beginning of SK, I stayed up one night excited because I got a good group at last to farm out an antigua, just to get a gun that was incomparible to others.
Changing of the charge attack it should just be so you aren't locked, can aim different directions.