If a mono-piercing one ever exists, I hope it'll be orange-bronze.

Trivia ~
The 4* and 5* charges used to shoot just the final bullets.

I really would love the changes made to the antigua lines. It would make this extremely stupid gun into a really useful powerful gun to use in dungeons. The Elemental change to the crystal bomb would be favorable in most situations.

Please. I beg you, Don't make the Radiant Sun Shards pure piercing. As already stated, the bomb's only drawback is the fact that it deals partial piercing damage. Making it pure piercing could quit possibly make it the most unpopular weapon in the game! I just spent a good bit of crowns and CE for this bomb and if you're going to ruin it, then I will have to respectfully request that you refund my expenses. A much better alternative would be to make the Radiant a neutral damage bomb and give the Ionized Salt Bomb pure elemental damage. This is still not an ideal situation though as most of us bombers would prefer the elemental bomb and would not appreciate having to craft another one from scratch. Unless of course, you were to give us the option to trade the Radiant for an Ionized.

I like the gun ideas though...

forget i made this, misunderstandings

Gotta love those gun changes. AP just became more curb-stompy, and Sentenza is now a very viable gun. I'm even crafting one as we speak, ((even if this doesn't happen, still will be fun to sling around in LD)).

My only question is will these AP/Sentenza changes displace the Polaris and Biohazard for PvE? That would be very unfortunate...

As for the Radiant Sun Shards (another fun little toy I love playing with); make it pure Elemental. We already have Dark Briar Barrage for a piercing bomb. And while DBB is a radius bomb, not a shard bomb; RSS should just be pure elemental, that way the bomb is still very viable. The bomb is used for slimes, turrets, and fiends mostly. Fiend damage bonus makes up for the lack of piercing, seeing how Elemental does decent damage to fiends as it is. Not to mention it just looks like it should be Elemental to begin with...

Just change the way that damage is calculated for split damage types so it is bonus damage on two types, normal damage on two types, and weak damage on two types.

This makes Argent Peacemaker:
Weak vs. Slimes and Gremlins
Normal vs. Beasts and Constructs
Strong vs. Fiends and Undead

Hey look, now it is a gun that kills evil beings, which was the original concept! It rewards a diversity of arsenal, which has been promoted with the whole "Change your equipment every level" thing. And it provides incentive to make one. Everyone has a Polaris, I have a volt driver, and I would hate to see my Silversix become a redundant, third elemental gun.

Sentenza would be:
Weak vs. Construct and Undead
Normal vs. Fiend and Slime
Strong vs. Gremlin and Beast

It's a gun that kills mammals! I have no interest in Sentenza right now, but I would make one if this change was implemented.

I really agree! This would make the Antigua line really usefull, and i got some suggestion to throw in too!

-A pure piercing line (i know, this have been suggested like a million times), since the rest are gonna be pure damage too anyway.
-lesser damage then other guns, since it have crazy-ass clip, and it's long-ranged. Maybe 3/4 or 3/5 of the alchemers damage.
-Improved charged attack, maybe it can be changed to JUST the big bird thingy that pierces through foes, much like DA/GF's charged attack. But deals lesser damage than the 6-shot combo (duh)

Got nothing bout the bomb thingy, never used one.

So, yeah.. Really looking forward to this change.

I don't want to insult anyone in three rings. Especially over changing the bombs of that kind... But the RSS wasn't the bomb that needed changing. If any bomb needs to have the damage type on it changed then the ionized salt bomb was that bomb. High damage vs. slimes and piercing?!?! What the heck is that?! Normal damage on that bomb would have been a far better type than piercing if you are implying it is for use against slimes... That's what needs to be changed...

As for the RSS, piercing damage on projectile weapons is a novelty at best. Projectile weapons are best used on big slow moving targets that won't dodge. Zombies, Lumbers, Gunpuppies, etc. Elemental damage against them is what made it good, taking that makes the bomb more or less a trash item just like the ISB. Also, as the guy before mentioned, yeah, I'd want my CE back if you made it pure piercing so I can spend it on making the already good and far better piercing DPS bomb, Dark Briar. See, that bomb knows what it is doing. No projectiles against fiends and beasts, it just doesn't work. Even the three star version of DBB would be a clear advantage over a pure piercing RSS.

So yeah... As Philip J. Fry would say... Not sure if the devs are stupid or trolling...

Aura-chan, your post is unnecessarily condescending, and you'd even have your obvious answer as to why they're addressing the RSS if you even bothered to read the first post in this very thread:

Nick
We are considering some changes to the small number of dual special damage (elemental, shadow, piercing) weapons in the game.

Devs are addressing split special damage weapons. RSS happens to be that type of weapon. Simple as that.

Also, thematically it's no surprise why RSS was mentioned to go into a piercing line as it's part of the Crystal Bomb lines, but I would agree with others to say it would make more sense as elemental instead. Since it's logically okay for the upgrades of the piercing Antigua to go into shadow and elemental lines, I don't see why Radiant Sun Shards couldn't also go from the piercing Crystal Bomb to an elemental line. If the intention is to keep the bomb as a fiend-slayer and that losing piercing no longer allows it to be "good" for that, why not effectively make RSS an elemental bomb with a much stronger damage bonus against fiends, like Ultra or even Max?

Seeing as it is, it might be best for one of us to make a summer of the general consensus and points made in this topic - that being since I have several things in mind.

So, I'll go by point-by-point with each weapon series, perhaps omiting or forgetting a few minor details or suggestions that didn't stand out to me

Antigua lines series:

As it stands, the vast majority approve of the changes, with only a few disagreements and concerns. Speaking of the concerns, the most common (At least to me) seems to be weapon balance between the new AP/Sentenza and other guns. To me, this shouldn't be an issue; a simple damage balance is what's mostly required. Also bear in mind that each weapon series, like the Biohazard compared to the new Sentenza, each have a different manner in dishing out their respective damages. Biohazard, for instance, deal shadow damage better to groups, while Sentenza is obviously about precious, range, and accuracy (And probably on a single target, which would definitely make it the most ideal weapon for killing gremlin Healers).

Another concern is if the change does occur, it leaves the transition from Antigua to AP/sentenza rather odd, as the gun originally deals piercing, and then would go to strait elemental or shadow. One obviously mentioned solution is to create a third line that simply deals piercing. this might imply, however, to do the same for the Sealed Sword series, since the sword has the same Dark/Light paths. Been interesting to see that green light effect used on a 4 and 5* normal damage variant with random conditions.

One other method is to adjust the damage calculation, but I have a feeling that can make things really messy in terms of programming.

On a off hand note, while note mentioned as a change, many have pointed out that the Antigua line charge needs a fix; considering it sticks you in a single position for so long, that's understandable. One mentioned is just to have the big, piercing shot. Although I don't demand it, I'll throw out a couple of my own ideas that might help the problem. Since we're looking at a gun that SHOULD fill an oppent with lead faster than the eye can move, perhaps simply increasing the rate of fire can; somewhere close to auto gun speed perhaps, but not too close.

Another attribute might to make the gun phase certain monsters so they can held in place for the damage duration (I.E Gremlin healers). Maybe give all the bullets fired a monster penetration, but have fallout damage for each monster pierced (Save for the big shot). Maybe allo the player to rotate while firing. All of what I'm mentioning is merely me brainstorming ideas, nothing else.

With that said, single piercing shot does sound right for the series, or at least for the Sentenza, since it'll be good for those gremlins surroundedby mecha knights. There aren't really any undead monsters technically worth sniping, so maybe something more multi-damage, but using a few idea I mentioned.

now, moving onward:

RSS

Pretty much everyone here agrees that RSS should NOT be piercing, and a good couple of others have suggested it be pure Elemental instead, chiefly because the way the bomb works is really good for slow or immobile monsters (Turrets); and DBB already covers mass pierce damage. Hey, just because the bomb was originally intended to work with fiends doesn't mean it can't find a much better job against other monsters; or adjusting it for that new job. not much else to add for RSS on my end aside that I agree with everyone else here.

As mentioned several times despite it not being on the list, ISB is suggested to have it's own work over, otherwise it might just fall into oblivion; this suggestion partially being either pure piercing or pure shadow. Personally, with elemental being good for construct and undead, and there being turrets of both types, then something for pure bombers to help take out those Polyps might be handy. That, or give it pure normal damage, hehe.

But we're then left with the odd divergence from piercing again (That, and rock salt doing shadow damage is also odd without adjusting the animation), but I'll let that be to the devs; whether they want to add another line that does pure piercing would be up to them. Unlike the Antigua, I see no major issue with Crystal bomb diverging to shadow and elemental, since we already had DBB for piercing.

That's all I got, and I hope that helps. Also, did I miss anything?

I really love the feel of the Antigua guns, and would really enjoy it if they got AT LEAST a stronger emphasis on their respective Elemental/Shadow damage type. Doesn't need to be pure Elemental or Shadow, but like 75% of the damage would make me happy.

Also, it would be nice to have a pure piercing line. I need a larger gun variety :P

@Flawedknight Bear in mind how split damage is calculated. Assuming the target is weak to one damage and neutral to the other, both damage types are added together, only half of the damage crits, while the rest remains normal; where else PURE specialized damage benefits from the full crit bonus, there by dealing FAR more damage than the former. And from the looks of it, the devs are trying to make, chiefly speaking, the AP/Sentenza line better at their intended roles while granting them better flexibility. Even with the damage buff, the gun won't change much if they're given normal instead of piercing.

Split normal and specialized for swords is understandable; they'd probably be dealing WAY too much damage if they were specialized, considering what a neutral sword can dish out. That, and it actually makes sense with the blades being physical. The AP/Sentenza line, on the other hand, are a little more vague.

the blackhawk line (in my mind) should have a pretty good chance of gitting low-high jelly dmg UV and same thing with silversix line (but have construct UV chance)

Ranger, He means he wants to sentenza to have extra jelly damage (Like swiftstrike has extra ASI)
Annd silver six to have same but with construct

The current problem with the Antigua split-damage guns:
Split damage changes the subset of enemies which this gun is effective and weak against. Example: rather than the typical subsets, the Argent Peacemaker is currently strong against both 'evil' types of enemies - undead and fiends. The problem is that the split damage causes the 'effective' damage to be less effective and the 'weak' damage to be less weak. It moderates damage across all enemy types, making it little better than a normal damage gun.
This is the reason why any reasonable, experienced gunslinger will not carry a split damage gun; gunslingers need every source of damage boost they can, and thus the reduced effectiveness of split damage guns is undesireable to gunslingers.

My proposed solution: (a new thought)
Keep the damage types as they are - thus keeping the same subset of enemies, however give these guns a damage bonus versus their effective enemies to counter the reduced effectiveness of split damage.
Examples:
(New) Argent Peacemaker: Split damage Piercing/Elemental. Damage Bonus vs Undead Medium. Damage Bonus vs Fiend Medium.
(New) Sentenza: Split damage Piercing/Shadow. Damage Bonus vs Gremlin Medium. Damage Bonus vs Beast Medium.

In addition, the charge attack for these weapons is very, very situational. Some would say unusable. Change the charge attack to a single, knockback capable bullet. This would give the charge attack more use.

The problem with this solution:
Damage bonuses do not stack past Maximum. For anyone who has a damage bonus against undead/fiends or gremlin/beasts, respectively, these damage bonuses are wasted. As these guns are currently filling the niche of "Swordsman sidearm", I don't see this being an excessively large problem. The only other possible solution for these guns (outside of changing the damage type to pure damage) is to raise their damage overall. This could be a mistake, as the neutral damage of these guns is already competitive with other normal damage guns and neutral damage guns.

Unrelated (or loosely related) thoughts:
I see little problem with a pure shadow Sentenza. It would certainly allow the weapon to see more PvE usage. The Peacemaker seems to be the problem. The Peacemaker's effective enemies, however, are exactly what they should be, I simply think that the gun needs to be more effective against the unholy enemies of the game.

I think many other guns could benefit from changing charge attacks, as has been proposed for the Antigua lines. Gun charge attacks are largely useless. Outside of a small subset of guns (Biohazard, Blitz Needle and sometimes the Alchemer lines), charge attacks are lackluster. Perhaps if gun charge attacks could travel through enemies, if they could knockback, or if they could be part of a combo themselves (instead of forcing a reload after the attack), they would see more use from the gunslinger community.

I also would like to mention that I love the idea of a split-damage weapon, however with the current game mechanics they're underwhelming. If the game mechanics were tweaked to allow these weapons to have comparable damage to single-damage weapons against their intended enemies, I'd use them frequently, and we could see more of them.

One last thing. Can we get even a rough estimate of when these changes would be implemented?

Full Elemental change for the AP for me would stink all da way. Simply because I already gotz an elemental gun.

Pure shadow dmg sentenza would be amazing; I would finaly be able to use it without feeling like im wasting a weapon slot.

"Why not just make the Silversix/Argent and Blackhawk/Sentenza fire only the Giant Bullet/Eagle from the charge attack?"

This is a good idea. As it is right now, the 5 shots followed by the final attack leaves you immobile and unable to defend for a considerable about of time making the charge useless in almost all scenarios. I really hope this is implemented

I would rly love a damage increase in the AP and the Sen

I'm going to echo the other sentiments, yes to gun changes, no to piercing RSS.

i rather have the Silversix/Argent Peacemaker getting change to pure piercing (don't think there are much piercing guns out there compared to ellemental) that's why i got the silversix in the first place and found out it was just junk against the monsters i wanted to use it for. (i find the overall lack of piercing weapons a bit anoying but that's a diffrent discusion)

and these are not the only weapons that need changin. (saltbomb, hunting blade, CIV)

If the non-Normal split types are underpowered due to resistance outweighing vulnerability, my first instinct would be to simply boost the base damage for the weapons that do that rather than change the flags around, simply for simplicity's sake. However, since I'm not the one actually doing any of that work I am all for adding fun complexity. :)

I'd really like to see the split retained, though, because it would have less potential to throw wrenches into the plans of players who've already invested in them in any part for the Piercing damage and also because I think the dual types offer an appealing flavour. I also have a bit of a problem with having more Elemental and Shadow guns to compete with the Alchemers and Roarmulus guns- especially the Roarmulus ones, since they're both boss tokens.

I suspect a lot of players would like (and, perhaps more importantly, few would dislike) for the Antigua upgrades to retain pure Pierce damage for the normal attacks, toned down a bit to keep it in line, and change the charge attack to pure Elemental or Shadow. It would keep the weapons more distinct from everything else in terms of flavour and function, minimise messing up any one's plans, and give us some pure Pierce gun damage options for 4- and 5-star that come from boss tokens to mirror the way the other pure types can be met with either Alchemers or Roarmulus guns.

I agree with others that the bomb would be better upgraded to Shadow damage, since the existing Shadow-type bomb we have is not DPS-oriented but the existing Pierce-type bomb is.

I'm concerned about balance between AP, the elemental Drivers, and Polaris. I thought that the superior dps against mobs of enemies/non-disruptive nature justified purchasing my glorious uv'd voltech over the otherwise better pulsar. This was a delicate balance at best. Now, with the addition of a PURE ELEMENTAL Argent Peacemaker with a freaking Undead bonus...argghhhhh OOO, please introduce this on the test server before updating the guns. I don't want AP making my driver useless.

As I before posted, I was against another pure elemental gun getting put into the game when there's already so many, but actually, I don't think it would be that big a deal. I'd really like Sentenza to become pure at any rate now, having decided to get one, having a pure shadow gun other then alchemer would be nice, I think it would be ideal if a 3rd Antigua line was made with only piercing, to make up for the lack of a kite gun with any piercing being taken out, though I don't really expect this to happen, it would be ever so loved.

The Antigua line really needs this, especially Sentenza. Will we be able to try out these potential changes on the test server anytime soon? I was really hoping they would have been included in the last test weekend.

I have no comment on the bomb, never used it, probably never will due to my preference for guns.

Here's my thought to fix the damage on the Antigua line. Based on my limited knowledge of coding, I expect that damage is calculated on impact by a routine that goes something along the lines of
(Damage type/types)>(enemy type)>(base damage)(Critical/weakness modifier)>(applied damage).

Rather than making the S6/AP and BH/Sentenza pure one sort of damage, you could improve the S6/BH crit/weakness modifiers to make it have the same damage on crits/weaks as other pure damage guns do (only one type of damage ever crits/weaks at a time on net crits/weaks). This could be done with (critical modifier +x) or (weakness modifier -x), or having a unique crit/weakness modifier used by the Antigua upgrade line as opposed to a presumably generic one used by all other guns that can crit. You'd get guns that were competitive, yet still had the unique strengths/weaknesses, without annoying people by changing a gun they paid for and use as is. I'd rather have it be without any creature-specific damage boosts, but that's just me.

The downside to this plan as compared to pure damage types is that with 3 pure damage guns of different types, you can deal crits to all enemies if you pull out the correct gun, but to achieve that with the antigua line (assuming you wield one of each), you need 4 guns because of the normal damaged enemies, one is weak vs elemental and the other is weak vs shadow (and both strong vs piercing). Without a split elemental/shadow gun, you need two separate guns to be able to crit on both of them. Not a problem if you swap weapons, but I want to have the ability to crit vs. everything at all times if possible.

Gunslinger armor is available in elemental, shadow, and piercing (neutral) varieties, which would support there being a "neutral" Antigua (perhaps elemental/shadow or normal/piercing?). Technically there's an oddity in the shadow and elemental armors not being strong against the thing they are made to fight against, but that's for some other topic.

I also support the changing of the charge attack. Perhaps leave it with the "several shots rapidly" but perhaps speed that up until the time spent stationary is equivalent to that of a gun with recoil. Just firing the final charged blast would also be fine, but the whole point of the antigua series over anything else is the ability to shoot a lot while moving, being stuck in place for so long (particularly while unable to turn point of aim) kind of defeats the purpose.

I speak as someone who hasn't used the antigua yet, but plans to use a s6/AP and a BH/Sentenza once I am able to get them. Sorry for the length of this post.